Discussion on making archers useful again

rapazmacho · March 2015

The desenvolvedofra should remember that there is the archer class in this game or delete once the already class that never improves at all.

rapazmacho · March 2015

The desenvolvedofra shouldnt remember que there is the archer class in this game or delete once the already class que never Improves at all.*

rapazmacho · March 2015

The developer shouldnt remember que there is the archer class in this game or delete once the already class que never Improves at all.*

freygin · March 2015

@rapazmacho : you should use post editing button if no one hasn't posted something yet..just saying. You should play with sweetiebot if you want to add your post counts.
===

Maybe the devs are playing it safe with archers, archer is maybe the most populated class in CN if not globally, give archers too much and they will be too OP and QQ will come from all of the other sides. b:laugh

AsMyliuTave - Sanctuary · March 2015

freygin wrote: »

Maybe the devs are playing it safe with archers, archer is maybe the most populated class in CN if not globally, give archers too much and they will be too OP and QQ will come from all of the other sides. b:laugh

I agree with this, that's why I only suggest a few small changes. Every server still has its idiots who thinks archers are OP now *facepalm*

rapazmacho · March 2015

Would After the expansion Perfect World 2 Iran make an expansion to improve the Archer ?

bloodedone87 · March 2015

rapazmacho wrote: »

Would After the expansion Perfect World 2 Iran make an expansion to improve the Archer ?

Perfect World 2 Iran?
WTF?
Dont know whay Perfect World 2 Iran is? I dont think that exists?
I dont think they are capable of making an expansion to improve the Archer ir that they have the rights to do so.

Perfect World the game is created by a company in china called wanmei.
They are the only ones that have the rights to create expansions.
Only them can improve archers and no one else.
Only them can add new things to the game.

rapazmacho · March 2015

Will after expansion Perfect World 2 Iran make an expansion to improve the archer ?

freygin · March 2015

rapazmacho wrote: »

Will after expansion Perfect World 2 Iran make an expansion to improve the archer ?

Perfect World 2 is called Eclipse and currently is the latest patch for PWI, I guess you're asking if archer, specificly, and other classes as well I might add, will have further skill rebalancing like they did a couple of times before.

I'm curious about that too, and more about 'what's new' from PW CN that PWI hasn't already had, and whatever is coming up after that.

Someone usually will make a new thread if something came up, but since there isn't any new thread about that yet in General Discussion forum other than small stuffs like new gender stone or faction name change stone, then it means Wanmei haven't announced anything big yet.

angellicdeity · March 2015

I think either of these things can fix the archer class:

1) Give archers the equivalent of Sage Tidal protection.

or

2) Give archers the ability to zerk-crit

or

3) Significantly boost base damage of the class and reduce Chi cost of skills / increase Chi generation rate.

or

4) Change damage of skills to scale to 400%+ of weapon damage. The chi cost to generation demands that these skills hit much harder than they do today.

XXHotXx - Morai · March 2015

angellicdeity wrote: »

I think either of these things can fix the archer class:

1) Give archers the equivalent of Sage Tidal protection.

or

2) Give archers the ability to zerk-crit

or

3) Significantly boost base damage of the class and reduce Chi cost of skills / increase Chi generation rate.

or

4) Change damage of skills to scale to 400%+ of weapon damage. The chi cost to generation demands that these skills hit much harder than they do today.

wow just no.

Sage tidal should be plain removed from the game as a **** OP game-breaking feature

zerk, ok

archer has a pretty nice chi regen already, have you ever played dunno wizard or duskblade?

archer isnt and never have been a DPH class, what you are suggesting as a skill damage increase is not an archer thing

as i said archer needs his DPS back, something that really boosts their base damage, not their skill damage or ther crit damage

we should do a petition to remove all the passive skills from the game

Eoria - Harshlands · March 2015

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

archer has a pretty nice chi regen already, have you ever played dunno wizard or duskblade?

Switch to sage wiz. No chi problems!

we should do a petition to remove all the passive skills from the game

Maybe you should just not play a wizard...

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · March 2015

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Switch to sage wiz. No chi problems!

Maybe you should just not play a wizard...

LEL! b:laugh

Kniraven - Lost City · March 2015

Dear Archers.
You are perhaps the absolute most useful TW DD already.
Use your strengths.
Yes you are squishy, Yes you are not the best at 1v1.
You shine in mass pvp though, hiding behind your friends and dealing out devastating damage from a distance.

Be thankful you aren't the suicide bomber class.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · March 2015

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

..hiding behind your friends and dealing out devastating damage from a distance.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

devastating damage from a distance.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

devastating damage

uwotm8

TitsMcGee_ - Sanctuary · March 2015

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

LEL! b:laugh

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Lel&defid=7654733

@Kniraven: no.
Identify an archer strength that hasn't been jacked, commandeered, nerfed, or otherwise turned into the opposite of a strength.
Note "killing noobs" does not count.

Yes we are squishy. But no, don't sugarcoat it. We are the WORST at 1v1.

We do not "shine" in mass PvP. We do not deal "devastating" damage. We deal the equivalent of throwing wet paper towels(rapidly, somewhat) at other classes whose defense, mobility, and killing power has been fortified to compete with each other while we have been forgotten and screwed by attempts to balance both sides with each other. Distances are EASILY closed and who even needs to close them when we are basically one zerk/magical crit away from death anyway?

I would be GRATEFUL to have invested what I invested in my archer into a suicide bomber. Holy ****, well built BMs are so freaking tanky, can zerk crit, and break right through any archer's 1 spark cost antistuns. So much for mobility, right? At least a BM has always enjoyed the status of being useful. Even when melees and archers got totally ****ed when our NW gave us the ability to get our poorly designed r999, at least you guys always had your supportive strengths to keep you "employed". What good is a DD with the worst damage capability of all classes?

To reiterate: No.

xarquess · March 2015

Well reading all those complaints.. I can only say...

'Give Seekers Anti-stunn skills - as they got only 'Unfetter' - makes u immune to movement debuff - only if sage'.. that's the only skill..

give us more stunning skills - got only 1 or 2..
give seekers more debuffs working in pvp.. like Heart seeker ect..

All You do is complain lol

TitsMcGee_ - Sanctuary · March 2015

xarquess wrote: »

Well reading all those complaints.. I can only say...

'Give Seekers Anti-stunn skills - as they got only 'Unfetter' - makes u immune to movement debuff - only if sage'.. that's the only skill..

give us more stunning skills - got only 1 or 2..
give seekers more debuffs working in pvp.. like Heart seeker ect..

All You do is complain lol

Alright, would you like fries with your order of the "Eliminate Any Existing Drawbacks To My Broken Class" package? Will you also be purchasing the assassin version of this package(includes primal skills)?

Oh No! It appears we cannot process your order at this time due to the fact that you are in exactly the wrong subforum! Please forward all purchase requests to The Seeker Subforum, where you and your fellow seekers can discuss in depth how difficult it is to QPQEasyKill combo equal geared opponents and how much it sucks to be the only class that can land magical zerk crits. Thank you and have a nice day!

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver · March 2015

O.O this class would be one of the last class i figure to have a "we need upgrade / feel useless" type of threads. i must been gone or sleep but last i knew 40% of population complainin archers too op, other 60% saying sins too op. hell since NW i think most of population rolled a archer >.< the other some sort of caster.

Hell i think if any class got right to make a complaint thread its the wizzys and im a bm making that statement. hell even bms could use a lil more of sumthin >.> ijs just give me the ability to go pure str and not have a suckachump accuracy and i will never ask anything again in regards to PWIb:victory

Eoria - Harshlands · March 2015

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver wrote: »

O.O this class would be one of the last class i figure to have a "we need upgrade / feel useless" type of threads. i must been gone or sleep but last i knew 40% of population complainin archers too op, other 60% saying sins too op. hell since NW i think most of population rolled a archer >.< the other some sort of caster.

Have you played an end-game archer. Recently.

Asterelle - Sanctuary · March 2015

I did it! I went through the entire skill set and managed to find a way to complain about almost every single skill! I'm so proud of myself. Complaining is maybe the most OP archer skill there is.

Wings of Grace - I feel like I'm spending a spark on what every caster now gets totally for free. Once you spend that spark you can still be stunned by all the new spammable paralyze skills from barb / duskblade / bm / whatever. Anti stun is not worth 1 second of channeling plus a spark anymore if it doesn't protect against stun. I think this should be switched to give 15 seconds of Tidal Protection. I don't care about the damage reduction effect of this skill since it is one of the smallest damage reductions in the game.

Take Aim - The main problem with this skill is that it does not stack with a normal arrow fired after it. Quickshot and Stun Arrow have more DPH than this skill even if you fully charge take aim for 3 seconds because of that stack. I never see anyone endgame fully charge this skill as it just doesn't feel strong. Everyone just insta fires it for the 15 chi and moves on. The damage needs to be a lot bigger fully charged but at least it has some utility as a chi building throw away.

Quickshot - The sage / demon versions of this skill are pretty good but both crit and aps are now being nerfed hard. I'd rather it have a more modern damage increasing effect like more rage damage or more attack levels.

Knockback Arrow - This skill has no effect in PVP and I never use it. No one ever uses it. I think it's the only single target knockback in the game that doesn't work in pvp. To fix it they should just enable the PVP knockback, it's only single target. There are so many classes out there already with knockbacks / reelins / transposition.

Aim Low - A skill that only immobilizes, why does it cost a spark? It's not even 100% chance and can miss. Heatseeker is just as long but generates 10 chi, never fails, and can zerk crit metal. Tackling slash generates 50 chi and lasts longer. Glacial shards is an aoe, generates 15 chi and has a shorter cooldown.
Half the time I use this skill on a caster it just procs their purify spell and they end up running away faster, I spend a full spark to increase their speed and give them anti stun. The chi cost of this skill needs to be removed.

Stun Arrow - Short stun but it's a low effort skill and not bad cooldown. Can't complain too much.

Barrage - Only problem with it is that it's the only continuous skill that drops when the target dies which makes finding a suitable barrage target overly annoying. Maybe it should spawn some kind of entity at the target and that entity becomes the center of the skill, stormbringer and mystic have skills that work like that. Still it's not often we come across an archer skill that gets actual use so that's saying something.

Lightning strike - Why was it so important to make the demon version have a 2 second longer cooldown than level 10? How many skills are there in the game that get downgraded like that. Seems dumb.

Thundershock - Primal passives basically killed off all mres/pdef debuffs in the game and this is no exception. -50% mres is not worth the 30chi cost these days. It also doesn't benefit from its own proc so the only way to make use of that worthless debuff you spent 30 chi on is to follow it up with a lightning strike. After you use those 2 skills though it's about time to stop throwing around metal. The end result is that you spend 30 chi on making a second attack slightly stronger. These days I'm more likely to skip this skill than not. I'd like to see the chi cost removed or lowered.

Thunderous Blast - It's an aoe. It doesn't do anything but not many archer aoes don't cost chi so can't complain.

Stormrage Eagleon - lol

Blazing Arrow - Adding a % weapon attack is an old fashioned damage amp, I'd prefer something modern that's noticeable with today's dex levels. At least it lets you hit phys immune stuff though.

Sharptooth - This is perhaps the fundamental archer PVE damage amp but why the hell do they make every new boss in the game immune to it? It makes no sense for a veno to be able to amp the boss, a BM to be able to HF the boss, a seeker to be able to WTFBBQ debuff the boss, but an archer can't nip a little HP at the start. Ohh and the demon skill description is wrong, it's only 15% hp not 16%.

Feather Armageddon - This skill is almost exactly the same as wingspan. Same cooldown, same chi, same range. The only difference is that you lose a skill to make it. Do not get this skill.

Wings of Protection - No one ever asks for archer buffs and there is a reason. First the speed buff; this buff is constantly discarded by every other speedbuff in the game. Why does a 10second speed skill overbuff a 15 minute skill? It's the only squad buff that is nearly always discarded. Give the damn thing it's own icon.

Now.. evasion. You can tell the devs gave up on evasion half way through making the game. They had this grandiose idea for a class with defense based on evasion but then they decided not to follow through with it. They added rings and skills that give ridiculously high accuracy but nothing for evasion. No evasion cube neck. No evasion warsong belts. No evasion on the R9 belt. No rings you could refine for evasion. Ohh and magic never misses anyway because -reasons-.
Later on when they wanted to resurrect the concept of an evasion-based class they couldn't use actual evasion because it's ****. Instead they made evasion that actually works in the form of tidal protection / focus mind and put that on top of the crappy old evasion archers have. Of course they went way too far and made it the most OP thing in the game.

To fix this skill ditch the evasion part and replace it with focus mind. Maybe like a 15% focus mind squad buff. Something of equal utility to other squad buffs like bell and barb buff.

Alacrity - It's pretty similar to other instant cast speed+anti stun buffs in the game and it's interesting how it can be cast on others. Maybe the 3 minute cooldown can be shorter.

Blessing of the Condor - Why does this stupid thing remove our squad buff? Does Buddha Guard remove bell? Does Bramble Hood remove Bramble Guard? Why do I have to use a defense skill that leaves me weaker? Give the damn thing its own icon.

Awaken - It's not that special these days because it has the longest cooldown of any chi skill in the game. The stormbringer version of this skill gives just as much chi but only 90s cooldown. Sin inner harmony gives half of much chi 5 times as often. Other classes have recently gotten stupidly easy ways to generate chi, like that new BM skill that generates 50 chi with a 6s cooldown, sage veno / panda form, the new wiz shield that constantly vomits chi. I wouldn't mind this getting a shorter cooldown like 2.5 minutes instead of 5 but can't complain too much.

Blood vow - It's rare to come across a 1 spark archer skill that is worth a 1 spark. Did this really need a 2 minute cooldown though? It already costs a full spark, are they worried archers would actually use it instead of save it up constantly? There are tons of OP skills like HF with 30 second cooldowns.

Whisper Shot - I never use this skill. I am certain the skill description is lying and the seal only lasts 2 seconds instead of 3. The range is only half range for no reason and the line width of this skill is only 2 meters making it the thinest line aoe in the game. For all intents and purposes this is a single target close range 2 second seal that costs 1 spark. Remove the chi cost, give it full range, increase the line width, increase the seal duration; pick at least 3 out of those 4 and this skill would be worth getting. Until then don't bother with it.

Galvanic Aura - I never use this skill and never see anyone use it. It costs 2 sparks and 3 seconds of your time for 6meters of range, 3 minute cooldown. 6 meters is the distance you walk in 1 second so you spend 3 seconds to save 1 second of walking. If you want to spend chi offensively you'd be better off casting spark. If you want to spend chi defensively you're better off with wings of grace. This skill is in a really awkward spot in the middle where you spend chi for nothing.

Ohh and the stormbringer version of this skill is 15 meters of added range for only 50 chi and only 90 second cooldown, instant cast. It's cute how they give other classes superior copies of archer skills.

Arrow Inferno - Another 1 spark skill. It adds 3 seconds to charm cooldown which is cool but only lasts 30 seconds so you're gonna get that benefit once and MAYBE twice. You spend a spark for 3-6 seconds of effect. Of course you spend 4 seconds casting this skill so there is zero net benefit in a 1v1 situation (except in ZTP combos you won't have a chance to use). Still it is worth it as a support ability against tanky targets in TW. After all, they have to make sure to give archer support skills and not serious DD ability.

Ataraxia - It's exactly like shadow escape! Except longer cooldown. And 5 times more MP usage. And you can't move. And you don't get a free spark. But other than THOSE things it's exactly like shadow escape!
Really I just find it insulting archer gets totally inferior copies of skills while other classes get the superior version. At least give the archer version a token benefit like no MP usage or something.

Leap left / right - These are good. They are of similar quality to the BM / Wizard versions with the tradeoff in cooldowns / chi cost / range. The only problem is that they almost always leave you stranded in the air for no reason unless the ground is 100% flat. They're also a lot harder to use in the air due to the unfavorable direction and camera controls.

Frost Splash - Low damage, unnoticeable effect, large chi cost, long cooldown, no ability to purge. It's definitely an archer skill. The aoe size can be kinda cool but you feel really guilty spending sparks on this and not on barrage. Still seeing those tiny red numbers everywhere is amusing and you'll probably kill some undergeared player somewhere who thinks archers are OP. To give you a feel of the DPS of this, it's a little less than 2 normal arrows worth of damage but spread out over 2.5 seconds (3.5 with channel time). Mediocre. To fix it I'd either drastically lower the chi cost / cooldown or make it last something like 20 waves instead of just 5, give the damage some time to rack up instead of quitting after doing nothing.

If I was sage I would skip this skill because Sage Frost arrow seems more useful. Even then though sage frost is just an exact copy of Gush / Cyclone except instead of generating chi it costs 25 chi.

Kiss of the Snake - It's like they had an idea to combine 2 worthless dots into one worthless dot. The reason DoTs are so crappy in this game is because the devs are bad at math and don't realize dots never crit. To make the dot actually noticeable you'd want each dot tick to be comparable to a normal arrow damage, which is equal to around twice base damage due to crit. With my endgame dex and crit, a normal arrow is on average 1450% weapon attack damage. This skill though thinks it cost twice as much time as a normal arrow but only adds 600% attack. You spend twice as long for an additional 1/3 damage. That's NOT a worthwhile skill. If you want to make a DoT skill good for an archer it would need 1450% weapon attack for every 3 seconds of the DoT. The DoT on this skill is 5 times weaker than it should be. That's a lot better than the two skills it's made from which have dots about 30 times weaker than they need to be.

Winged Shell - I never use this. It's 45 chi skill for a defense charm. Why is it a veno can spend 30 chi on something awesome like blazing barrier and archer spends much more on something so bad? The primal version of this blocks 1500 HP, that's 5% of my hp. I'd scrap it and give archers a magic version of plume shell or something.

Flight Mastery - Imagine how cool it would be if this passive removed the air to ground damage penalty? Currently air combat is all but dead due to that penalty. The only reason there is any air combat at all is that clerics have no air to ground penalty in their heals. Since archers are also elves I think it would be interesting to have a winged DD role as well. Having some air to ground DD ability might prevent people from ignoring air like they do today.

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver · March 2015

dont need to play one i fight so many from under geared to op geared to max nuema portals unfinish to finish primals and its always the smart ones that know wtf they doing that shows they dont need room for a big "wish list" maybe yall could use a better buff cause i agree its stupid when holy path can kill the increase speed. idk DW got a high population of Archers seen all kinds im not talkin trash here im really being honest about my thoughts , i honestly dont think Archers needed a big list of "need an upgrade" .

phmn · March 2015

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dont need to play one i fight so many from under geared to op geared to max nuema portals unfinish to finish primals and its always the smart ones that know wtf they doing that shows they dont need room for a big "wish list" maybe yall could use a better buff cause i agree its stupid when holy path can kill the increase speed. idk DW got a high population of Archers seen all kinds im not talkin trash here im really being honest about my thoughts , i honestly dont think Archers needed a big list of "need an upgrade" .

So you don't need to play an archer to say that archer's aren't OP and that they don't need upgrades. Okay. The only people who are complaining about archer's being OP are undergeared squishies who couldn't take a hit from any end game person in the first place. We're talking equal geared endgame toons. The casters I am taking on have a vast amount of more defense and more mobility, and can DD more, and more effectively.

Archers are supposed to be a ranged physical damage dealer class. We get the most damage per dex then any other class. That being 7-11. I'll repeat that again WE ARE A DD class. What most people who aren't archers don't see is that the class has been severely downgraded to a support class. And the only aspect of QQ we get at end game is the purge from our weapon which is only a 8% chance to proc. Never about the class itself. And if purge is supposed to be our great "equalizer" against other classes. Those who have higher base defenses then we do, more balanced resistances than we do. And at end game can DD better than us. Gain chi faster than us, and have skills with the same effects or better with lower cds and lesser costs. And we are also the only class with a damage nerf that every other class gets to abuse and we get shafted time and time again.

iperen · March 2015

phmn wrote: »

And the only aspect of QQ we get at end game is the purge from our weapon which is only a 8% chance to proc. Never about the class itself.

This is not true. Purge proc is dangerous exactly because you are archers. It goes together. Without the huge range, top tier weapon and no cast purple mist, purge is not even half as dangerous. The exact same goes for zerk and purify. What's a seeker without zerk ? Who wouldn't faceroll a wizard without purify proc ?

Like I said before, a review on auto-attacks, proc on all skills and skill channel/cast/cost would be justified. Complaining about purge proc makes cross the line between being constructive and QQing. But I seriously hope archers will get a GoF bow. The QQ when realizing how much inferior it is would be amazing.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Knockback Arrow - This skill has no effect in PVP and I never use it. No one ever uses it. I think it's the only single target knockback in the game that doesn't work in pvp. To fix it they should just enable the PVP knockback, it's only single target. There are so many classes out there already with knockbacks / reelins / transposition.

Landslide and that bm sword knockback are also single target and don't work in pvp.

And you seriously overdid it on that skill list.

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear · March 2015

You dont seem to realize how insanely strong endgame archers are. They dominate almost all other endgame classes in pvp at least on my server. I know a +10 r9s3 archer with basic garnet shards in armor and they wreck a lot of endgame players because of their insanely high base physical attack and kiting.

The half damage zone should stay, otherwise archers would just keep doing full damage on toons whose only chance of surviving you is to get close up in your face, which you then just leap away from and pew pew again >.>

angellicdeity · March 2015

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You dont seem to realize how insanely strong endgame archers are. They dominate almost all other endgame classes in pvp at least on my server. I know a +10 r9s3 archer with basic garnet shards in armor and they wreck a lot of endgame players because of their insanely high base physical attack and kiting.

The half damage zone should stay, otherwise archers would just keep doing full damage on toons whose only chance of surviving you is to get close up in your face, which you then just leap away from and pew pew again >.>

Clearly not end-game if an archer is dominating.

Archer damage is very tankable end-game if you have equal gear.

To put it in perspective, I tank archers of this gear:

http://mypers.pw/1.4/#68759

Fairly with them dealing maybe 3-4K damage per hit once debuffed. Maybe with some debuffs they'll start hitting 5-6K. If I'm super-amped then maybe 8K. Aside from that, well within my 30K+ HP pool. They'll tick my charm, but they'll never kill me.

rapazmacho · March 2015

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver wrote: »

dont need to play one i fight so many from under geared to op geared to max nuema portals unfinish to finish primals and its always the smart ones that know wtf they doing that shows they dont need room for a big "wish list" maybe yall could use a better buff cause i agree its stupid when holy path can kill the increase speed. idk DW got a high population of Archers seen all kinds im not talkin trash here im really being honest about my thoughts , i honestly dont think Archers needed a big list of "need an upgrade" .

I agree ! Less on the part of leaps , these Archer jumps are very bads compared to the wizard jumps after all who have reduced damage to attack up close? Archer or Mage ? The Archer jumps are waste as well as all your skills.

rapazmacho · March 2015

Archer needs to be redone from scratch.

There is no way to contact the developer ?

rapazmacho · March 2015

It is better to create a assassin in place Archer today already that they can also use arc with Chi 3 all the time.

rapazmacho · March 2015

I so wanted archer gets an upgrade in all your skills .

It's so boring to play with a class that just can not use skills.

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