A quirk about HF...

Saethos - Raging Tide · February 2015

So it's no secret that I'm a sage BM, but anyone that's seen me discuss it will know that I know demon HF is better because it just is. However, I often find when in squad with a demon BM and they tell me to HF second, and let's say it's an FS squad that takes a bit of time killing the bosses, like most normal squads...

So I comply and I don't HF until Demon HF is over, because that's my job, however the demon BM then NEVER HF'S AGAIN just for me to HF off cooldown. This is PvE so chi is clearly not the issue here, instead it's just the fact they won't use HF because they don't feel like it or some other such reason.

Basically what I'm saying is, if you have the better HF why in gods name are you not using it? I get flack all the time for being sage and my HF not being 9 seconds, but I don't think it matters when you don't use it...I will gladly wait for the better HF to trigger.

In before "Lol sage sucks and here's why you're stupid" derailing. Please let's try not to talk about cultis and more about why people don't use their damn skills.

Sylvae - Sanctuary · February 2015

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

So it's no secret that I'm a sage BM, but anyone that's seen me discuss it will know that I know demon HF is better because it just is. However, I often find when in squad with a demon BM and they tell me to HF second, and let's say it's an FS squad that takes a bit of time killing the bosses, like most normal squads...

So I comply and I don't HF until Demon HF is over, because that's my job, however the demon BM then NEVER HF'S AGAIN just for me to HF off cooldown. This is PvE so chi is clearly not the issue here, instead it's just the fact they won't use HF because they don't feel like it or some other such reason.

Basically what I'm saying is, if you have the better HF why in gods name are you not using it? I get flack all the time for being sage and my HF not being 9 seconds, but I don't think it matters when you don't use it...I will gladly wait for the better HF to trigger.

In before "Lol sage sucks and here's why you're stupid" derailing. Please let's try not to talk about cultis and more about why people don't use their damn skills.

For much the same reason BMs don't use GS or skill in general nowadays; they're bad. Heck, just had a CoA where a BM was trying to steal agro from me on a boss I was primal cycloning, with APS. And to top it off, they made sure to HF as well.

Or why some BMs if they do actually do the combo, do it in an inane order. GS then HF means double damage the whole time during the debuff, for maximum group damage output. Instead many go HF, to double the damage of their GS. So they truncate over-all group damage, just to feel like they are doing more damage.

It's insane, but it's done. Since I basically stopped doing any instance that forces me to rely on others, it hasn't been an issue for me. So it's not as big a deal as it used to be. Though nowadays it's more about a FSP run taking twice as long, because people who aren't useful drag 2 alts that sit out and do nothing. I'd rather max out 2 characters and find ways to solo it rather than deal with that.

Colum - Raging Tide · February 2015

Especially in FS... BMs seems to go in ****** mode generally.

At drake they don't HF cause theyre too busy running out of circles for whatever dumb reason they have (if my sin can tank those circles, so can most BMs).

At toad... BMs time HF wrong, period. I see most of them using it still when the sheild is up (-.-).

At succubus.... HF when the boss tells to disperse, GG.

At kings... No HF whatsoever, which amazes me. They use blade tornado instead *facedesk*

And Mushi.... they HF when everyone else spark or right before sparks so the HF duration will be completely wasted.

Yeah, BMs and FS...

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · February 2015

Laziness

/thread

Evryn - Morai · February 2015

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

So I comply and I don't HF until Demon HF is over, because that's my job, however the demon BM then NEVER HF'S AGAIN just for me to HF off cooldown. This is PvE so chi is clearly not the issue here...

Stop. Right. There.

Many pure axe BMs, especially the Demon kind, can open with HF fine if they've had some time to recharge chi. The demon HF is of course longer lasting (same effect, longer duration) then sage, so it's natural they lead with it. HOWEVER when it comes to longer slugfests, Demon axe BMs can NOT recharge chi as easily as sage BMs do, which is why they usually don't re-cast their HF. They don't have the sparks for it - and are clueless on how to get it once their reserves are gone and their genie's on cooldown.

As a sage BM I often catch flak for APSsing in FSP until I explain the motivation behind it. I wait for a primary DD to spark, then throw sage HF followed immediately by sage glacial spike (Sage can do that, since the sage HF only takes 125 chi instead of 200). Then APS to recharge chi very fast and throw the debuff set again as soon as the cooldown expires. Double damage plus 90% phys def reduction effectively more then triples the damage the target takes. And as a sage BM with some APS capabilities, I can throw that every 30 seconds. Heck, at Prince Mushi I often find myself having problems burning off chi in time - not uncommon to have all the two spark skills on cooldown (HF, glacial, myriad and drakes bash) and resort to triple spark just to be rid of the chi. And inbetween bosses, once the party bunches up a couple of mobs, I throw sage HF just for the heck of it - Li's Technique ensures I got enough chi back by the time we get to the next boss.

Sure, I do **** damage while apssing a FSP boss, but compared to sins, BM damage output will always be low anyway.

@Above:
Azoth: My BM tanks the Azoth circles fine - (sage) marrow magical, and just keep on punching. Only time it gets iffy if you've got a weaker cleric and the ice debuff on you - then the circles can hurt a bit. But even then, that's what Diamond Sutra is for.

Toad: Sage BM can throw debuffs as fast as the CD expires. I usually do just that, or wait to just past the mass stun. If you've got a half competent party, shield will be up for less then a second anyway.

Succubus: If you've got a decent bunch of ranged DD, throwing HF before running does make sense. You can't throw it at range. If your party consists mostly of sins and other melee DD, it's better to wait. Can get annoying to wait, and wait, and wait if Succubus decides to throw revenge over and over... Besides, I'm usually more focused on interrupting heal if it comes then throwing the debuffs (given BMs have at least 3 interrupt skills I know of, one of which always hits).

At kings: Depends on how much elemental DD you got. HF won't hit the physical immune, even if you have a wood apot/iceblade/drake bash active. Throwing HF in that mix when you've got 3 vovos active or such usually leads to all bosses except the phys immune resetting. Beyond that, yea... kings is a nice time to spam hf and glacial, along with every AOE the BM has (Cyclone Heel/Army Crusher/Hillborn). Sword Cyclone is kinda meh for it - considering the damage is applied as a debuff, attack levels aren't factored in. It's just not very useful in PvE... Better suited for taking on JOSD'd arcanes/lights in PvP (Cyclone+Ironguard potion can be funny in a NW tower map).

Mushi: Keep in mind that Mushi's chi donation interval is about 28 seconds. Cooldown on the twospark abilities is 30 seconds. That's why I usually throw the first HF early. If you've got an OP party it won't matter if it's early, boss will be dead in under 30 secs. If you got a party that takes more then 30 secs to kill Mushi, then your second HF (and glacial) will be timed perfectly.

ZetsumieX - Raging Tide · February 2015

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

Stop. Right. There.

Many pure axe BMs, especially the Demon kind, can open with HF fine if they've had some time to recharge chi. The demon HF is of course longer lasting (same effect, longer duration) then sage, so it's natural they lead with it. HOWEVER when it comes to longer slugfests, Demon axe BMs can NOT recharge chi as easily as sage BMs do, which is why they usually don't re-cast their HF. They don't have the sparks for it - and are clueless on how to get it once their reserves are gone and their genie's on cooldown.

let me stop u right there my friend... i, as scum demon bm (lolsagebm), can get np 2 sparks in 30-35 seconds on my normal dd macro(no aps lol), so chi gaining is invalid.

this is not the problem of the case. the thing is most of the RT BM's are either lazy either dumb. IF they HF, but only IF (most of the times if there's another bm will not do it) and then just aps the bosses. Or that's what 98% of other BM's i've FS'd with do.

Evryn - Morai · February 2015

Sounds to me like you have an alt problem on RT then. BMs as HA toons are quite easy to survive FSP with once you get past Azoth - rest of the bosses just deals phys. But BMs are damage support imho - even if you have 2 or 3 bms in party, that's no reason to skimp on debuffs.

ZetsumieX - Raging Tide · February 2015

i feel that BM is a dieing class (or at least on our server). There are like 20 BMs tops that are main chars on RT, i believe, rest are, i guess, alts mostly for farming (buff hoes, HF hoe alts for TT)

XCableX - Archosaur · February 2015

i love it when i drop my demon hf over an archer's BV.

Kappa

teikiatsu11 · February 2015

I've honestly never had this issue, usually me and my fellow BM's in squad are spamming not only HF but GS as well, we rotate debuffs if I HF the other GS and vice versa. Building chi even as demon isn't that hard, even without switching weapons I can build my chi back before HF is out of CD.

Now if I'm the only BM in squad depending on the situation depends on how I put debuffs out on most bosses I do GS then HF (GS having a longer duration it makes sense to throw it out first). Except on Succubus where I wait until she says "Stand Together" to throw out any debuffs.

P.S: I know sage is different but with majority BM's being demon if you put GS out first if that 50% chance to proc 100% crit rate goes off you will have a substantially higher damage output compared to doing HF then GS.

Saethos - Raging Tide · February 2015

ZetsumieX - Raging Tide wrote: »

let me stop u right there my friend... i, as scum demon bm (lolsagebm), can get np 2 sparks in 30-35 seconds on my normal dd macro(no aps lol), so chi gaining is invalid.

this is not the problem of the case. the thing is most of the RT BM's are either lazy either dumb. IF they HF, but only IF (most of the times if there's another bm will not do it) and then just aps the bosses. Or that's what 98% of other BM's i've FS'd with do.

This. I was demon once, too. Silly sage BMs, when will they (we) learn chi argument is invalid...

Daggaa - Harshlands · March 2015

Why don't demon bm's use hf as often... The answer to this question is as complex as trying to solve the square root of pi divided by Apple and multiplied by pizza.... The answer is that the Icon doesn't look as good with a red border ;/ I mean I'm personally embarrassed whenever I hf b:sad

In all seriousoliity BMs imho are one of the toughest classes to master, no beginner hm will know how to combine their skills to promote maximum DD both personally and for the whole squad... It's like asking why this 10 year sniper veteran keeps moving locations every set of hours and this other rookie stays at the same spot forever... Experience bruh. You can't expect someone who just started a year ago to know the combos and boss timings as a 4year BM (though there are exceptions...obvs) so in conclusion!!!! It does not matter wether you have sage or demon hf, we are all just as noob... "Boob squeeze"

A quirk about HF...

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