Sage/Demon

ykc
ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
edited January 2015 in Barbarian
Under current changes
who would be better sage or demon barb?
str/dex/vit/hybrid built
pvp/pve/pk
I know that question was been made for ages b:surrender
Post edited by ykc on

Comments

  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    catabarb: Sage vit (minimal dex)
    PK barb (inc NW): Demon Str (dex much debated, 60 - 200)
    PvE barb: Demon Str with dex for fists (5aps in R9 HA is still really really nice even though its only for the old content)

    Joe is gonna tell you that demonstr is also good for catabarbs. Most people disagree. If you want to be all round though, it is true that being demonstr as catabarb is probably less of a handicap than being sagevit for pk and pve purposes.
    This is most strongly true for the demon-sage choise. Str-vit is easy to change anyway. Demon is pretty darn superior to sage for pk and pve.

    For many people TW is however the sole purpose of life. Those are the sages.

    PS: current changes here does not include any changes in the last 2 months since i have been out of the game since then.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    catabarb: Sage vit (minimal dex)
    PK barb (inc NW): Demon Str (dex much debated, 60 - 200)
    PvE barb: Demon Str with dex for fists (5aps in R9 HA is still really really nice even though its only for the old content)

    Joe is gonna tell you that demonstr is also good for catabarbs. Most people disagree. If you want to be all round though, it is true that being demonstr as catabarb is probably less of a handicap than being sagevit for pk and pve purposes.
    This is most strongly true for the demon-sage choise. Str-vit is easy to change anyway. Demon is pretty darn superior to sage for pk and pve.

    For many people TW is however the sole purpose of life. Those are the sages.

    PS: current changes here does not include any changes in the last 2 months since i have been out of the game since then.

    demon barb str/vit/dex build? (couldn't find any build for demons) all I saw was tanker/hybrid/str
    but can't find the str/vit/dex where to put the max of each.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    its simple, you need the stats for equiping your gear. This highly depends on your gear. With end game gear it comes down to like 150 str or so and nothing else. with beginners gear it might be 260 str and 60 dex.

    Any remaining points are to play with. Str barb puts them all in str, vit barb puts them all in vit. Dex as noted is very much debated. Demon str barbs are much more likely to put some more in dex than sage vit barbs. Both because onslought is the key skill for demons OPness and it is not a 100% hit (unlike quite a bunch of other skills) and because the sage doesnt rely much on hitting his opponents but moreso on simply surviving.

    Total stats including gear also vary hugely on gear. Beginning barbs may look like:
    sage vit barb: 150 vit, 320 str, 60 dex.
    demon Str barb 40 vit, 430 str, 60 dex.

    while end game barbs may look like:
    vit: 600 vit, 400str, 80 dex
    str: 150 vit, 800str, 150 dex

    That vit on the str barb and the str on the vit barb simply comes from gear like emperor tome, vit stones and war avatar cards.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    its simple, you need the stats for equiping your gear. This highly depends on your gear. With end game gear it comes down to like 150 str or so and nothing else. with beginners gear it might be 260 str and 60 dex.

    Any remaining points are to play with. Str barb puts them all in str, vit barb puts them all in vit. Dex as noted is very much debated. Demon str barbs are much more likely to put some more in dex than sage vit barbs. Both because onslought is the key skill for demons OPness and it is not a 100% hit (unlike quite a bunch of other skills) and because the sage doesnt rely much on hitting his opponents but moreso on simply surviving.

    Total stats including gear also vary hugely on gear. Beginning barbs may look like:
    sage vit barb: 150 vit, 320 str, 60 dex.
    demon Str barb 40 vit, 430 str, 60 dex.

    while end game barbs may look like:
    vit: 600 vit, 400str, 80 dex
    str: 150 vit, 800str, 150 dex

    That vit on the str barb and the str on the vit barb simply comes from gear like emperor tome, vit stones and war avatar cards.
    demon str have vit?
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    not from stat points, but from gear.

    If you want to build demon str, just put every level 1 point in dex and 4 points in str.

    If you want to build a sage vit, just put every 2 levels: 6 points in str, 3 points in vit, 1 point in (if you are just a few points short in dex, use a tome that gives some extra dex) dex.

    After you get better gear, you will want to reduce excess points and move them to your main stat. That is no worry for now though. You will have twice a chance to change stats for free when you rebirth and after that you need to buy items that allow you to change stats. They arent extremely expensive and even though they are cashshop items, you can get them without spending real money (you can get everything without spending real money)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    not from stat points, but from gear.

    If you want to build demon str, just put every level 1 point in dex and 4 points in str.

    If you want to build a sage vit, just put every 2 levels: 6 points in str, 3 points in vit, 1 point in (if you are just a few points short in dex, use a tome that gives some extra dex) dex.

    After you get better gear, you will want to reduce excess points and move them to your main stat. That is no worry for now though. You will have twice a chance to change stats for free when you rebirth and after that you need to buy items that allow you to change stats. They arent extremely expensive and even though they are cashshop items, you can get them without spending real money (you can get everything without spending real money)

    I did vit build (non-rb) and was wonderin what would suit better as tank/pve/pvp/pk lol
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Was wondering how much dex need/would have demon str barb clean and wouldn't be squishy?
  • Roar_King - Sanctuary
    Roar_King - Sanctuary Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    My build is Demon high dex. No vit. Rest str.
    I'm about end gear.

    Here some pvp (NW and TW) so you can have an idea on the damage dealt and taken.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKvfcbC0NMV7UWXOOJL9rYA
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Roar_King - Sanctuary wrote: »
    My build is Demon high dex. No vit. Rest str.
    I'm about end gear.

    Here some pvp (NW and TW) so you can have an idea on the damage dealt and taken.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKvfcbC0NMV7UWXOOJL9rYA

    Better hi dex or hi str as demon? and how can allocate? (ha gear is more str) so i got confuse
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    ykc wrote: »
    Better hi dex or hi str as demon? and how can allocate? (ha gear is more str) so i got confuse

    Try first reading all the replies you have gotten before asking again what has been elaborately answered already.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • silverbot
    silverbot Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Hi ive been wondering, why are you always pairing str demon and vit sage?
    Cant you have str sage and vit demon.
    Also something ive wanted to ask for a long time is: what is the real difference in sage and demon.
    I see people debating on demon path being better. Isnt it just personal preference? As far as I see, most of the characters power comes from equipment.
  • Roar_King - Sanctuary
    Roar_King - Sanctuary Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    silverbot wrote: »
    Hi ive been wondering, why are you always pairing str demon and vit sage?
    Cant you have str sage and vit demon.
    Also something ive wanted to ask for a long time is: what is the real difference in sage and demon.
    I see people debating on demon path being better. Isnt it just personal preference? As far as I see, most of the characters power comes from equipment.

    Always pairing str demon and vit sage becuase demon help to do critical hit and damage then optimize every str point, sage optimize vit point.
    It possible go sage str and demon vit. Nothing bad.
  • Colum - Raging Tide
    Colum - Raging Tide Posts: 1,696 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    silverbot wrote: »
    Hi ive been wondering, why are you always pairing str demon and vit sage?
    Cant you have str sage and vit demon.
    Also something ive wanted to ask for a long time is: what is the real difference in sage and demon.
    I see people debating on demon path being better. Isnt it just personal preference? As far as I see, most of the characters power comes from equipment.

    Sage str and demon vit are fairly uncommon builds, while they too have their charm in it.

    Sage str could potentially have very high zerk crits (though not as good dps as demons that's for sure) and demon vit barb's armageddon combos are beyond frightening.
    Leader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
    Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101

    Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101 | Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101 | Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101 | Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93 | Demon 4 APS-Barbarian 100/100 | HA-venomancer 100 | DPH Assassin 100 | Pure Mag Wizard 100 | Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96 | Demon DPS Archer 94 | Sage Vit Barbarian 93 | Demon All-Path Blademaster 93 | Str Seeker 86 | Pure Mag Venomancer 81 | Pure Mag Wizard 81 | Pure Dex Duskblade 47
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    As said, sage optimizes your use of vit, demon optimizes your use of str. But the other combinations are not totally outlandish. I have considered converting to (demon) vit myself for TW, didnt get to doing it though because i had no doubt i would want it only for TW and was still doing other things the rest of the week.

    The real difference:
    Demon is more focussed on agression. And tbh, there is simply 1 skill that makes all the difference. Demon onslought which increases your critical strike rate by 40% for 6 seconds including the attack itself. All the other differences i dont care too much about.

    Sage does not have 1 such skill that is vastly OP, it has a lot of variety of advantages in other skills, mostly defensive advantages.

    The gear is indeed a more important aspect to make your barb strong. It also is an important aspect in your choise of stats. Your strength is a multiplier, so wether your axe is doing 1000 dmg per hit or 10.000 or 100.000, twice the strength will double the damage you do. Vit on the other hand adds a set number of HP, so wether you have 10.000, 30.000 or 50.000 HP, 300 vit will add some 10.000 HP in tiger form. Therefore vit is more interesting when you are poorly equiped than when you are very well equiped.

    Indeed of course it is a personal preference however, it is mostly about what aspect of the game matters most to you. In PvE, as soon as you have G16 medium refined or better you will feel comfortable everywhere. When you have R9 with some refines, the whole game becomes laughably easy. Therefore there is no reason to make any defensive choises for pve and you will want to focus on dmg so you can cut trough it asap. Hence demon strength.

    Being a catabarb on the other hand is all about surviving. Hence most catabarbs prefer to be sage vit.

    1v1 PK and NW is bit more balanced. Here every build of barb can have its merits if you addept your playstyle to it. The difference will clearly be vast though. A demon str barb can be killed just about as easy as any normal BM (who are all str build) and the damage he deals is fearsome. This leads to an active and agressive PvE where both are trying to kill the other first (of course combined with some defensive abilities from the genie most of all). The charmed sage vit barb may often be unkillable for his enemy. At the same time he will often have big difficulties making a kill himself too. Much waiting for the right opportunity for armageddon and hoping it will crit.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    Try first reading all the replies you have gotten before asking again what has been elaborately answered already.

    Sorry didn't notice

    4 str 1 dex as pure str but if hi dex how would be? (wasn't been said b4)
  • Lolgasmic - Raging Tide
    Lolgasmic - Raging Tide Posts: 1,315 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    The charmed sage vit barb may often be unkillable for his enemy. At the same time he will often have big difficulties making a kill himself too. Much waiting for the right opportunity for armageddon and hoping it will crit.

    Agreed... That's just about all it amounts to. The last few arma's I've landed in NW on AAs I know were just barely enough to kill, but sometimes not. If I crit or zerk the arma, they will most likely die. For auto/skill all I can do is keep up my CC and hope for good hits. It's helped by targeting specific kinds of enemy. AA or LA, or HA's already occupied in a fight. Typically I avoid fighting HA unless they're already being attacked, a gank always brings them down.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Barbarian 103 - 101 - 101
    Started playing on March 2010
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Agreed... That's just about all it amounts to. The last few arma's I've landed in NW on AAs I know were just barely enough to kill, but sometimes not. If I crit or zerk the arma, they will most likely die. For auto/skill all I can do is keep up my CC and hope for good hits. It's helped by targeting specific kinds of enemy. AA or LA, or HA's already occupied in a fight. Typically I avoid fighting HA unless they're already being attacked, a gank always brings them down.

    Sage barbs pray to Crit gods often? b:chuckle
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ykc wrote: »
    Sorry didn't notice

    4 str 1 dex as pure str but if hi dex how would be? (wasn't been said b4)

    would be up to 200 dex at level 100. (although very few go higher than whats needed for fists or claws, which is around 190 with gears on)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ykc wrote: »
    Sage barbs pray to Crit gods often? b:chuckle

    Very oftenb:laugh
  • CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur
    CANUS_MAJOR - Archosaur Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ykc wrote: »
    Sage barbs pray to Crit gods often? b:chuckle

    Our prayers rarely get answered though, even with all that blood we bath in b:cry b:laugh
    The loudest person in the room, usually has the least to say... b:chuckle
  • Colum - Raging Tide
    Colum - Raging Tide Posts: 1,696 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    All the crits. b:pleased
    Leader of Cyanure on Valonsurma and a proud member of Vertu
    Demon Strength Barbarian 103/103/101

    Demon Pure Mag Cleric 102/102/101 | Demon 4 APS Assassin 102/102/101 | Demon Pure Mag Mystic 102/101/101 | Demon Pure Mag Psychic 100/100/93 | Demon 4 APS-Barbarian 100/100 | HA-venomancer 100 | DPH Assassin 100 | Pure Mag Wizard 100 | Demon Pure Mag Stormbringer 96 | Demon DPS Archer 94 | Sage Vit Barbarian 93 | Demon All-Path Blademaster 93 | Str Seeker 86 | Pure Mag Venomancer 81 | Pure Mag Wizard 81 | Pure Dex Duskblade 47
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    would be up to 200 dex at level 100. (although very few go higher than whats needed for fists or claws, which is around 190 with gears on)

    But how much str/dex per level? would be axe and claw/fist?
  • Keisari - Raging Tide
    Keisari - Raging Tide Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Kitty already had a demon APS-barb at 1st RB 100 and she used to have a demon vit. barb before she quit PWI and deleted it. And now Kitty's got a sage vit. barb to 100 by using a pill at 91. Kitty has no PVP-experience on barbs so this post ish from PVE-POV.

    Demon APS-barb(3str/2dex) ish, in general, the best build for PVE-stuff due to heavy damage and almost endless chi, not to mention monstrous crit rate(with demon BO it's easily over 60%).

    Demon vit. barb(just enough str and dex to get gears on) can do massive pulls and kill them with relative ease. Due to 10% extra damage on demon Arma demon vit. barb's Arma ish pretty much the hardest hitting AoE in the game, not to mention having it 100% crit on every mob by using demon Sunder first...or zerkcritting it...

    But around full T3+5 armors the vit. isn't that effective anymore due to high HP from gears and probably demon str. barb(60 dex, rest to str) would be best in anything that requires doing loads of damage at once. Kitty has no real experience about this build as she's yet to reach 100 on her demon str. barb.

    Though Kitty hasn't played sage vit. barb much yet, she's already noticed...SAGE VIT. BARBS ARE THE 2ND WORST BUILD FOR PVE, only AA-barb would be worse. When demon barbs hit 10k+ on bosses at least half of the time(or most of the time with zerk-axes) thanks to hilarious crit rate from demon BO, sage barbs have to pray for 10k+ hits. Without zerk axes it's a really rare sign. In PV sage barb has serious problems trying to get mobs killed as demon barbs do about 4x moar damage with Sunder-Arma.

    If you do PVE-stuff even half of the time, choose demon barb. Sage vit. barb ish only good for pulling cata.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Kittysama - Raging Tide in APS-barb disguise, when avatars were bugged. Now posting again as Kittysama.
    Deleted old mains on Feb. 2014, back with every viable build covered, majority of them at or above non-rb 100.b:cute
    The Greatest APS-Panda on RT! 'Cause there's too much food in tables of Imperial palace.b:surrender
    Kitty's current average lvl ~94 b:shocked
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So to be axe/claw would be (max str armor/weapon req) and all rest dex?
  • KeepMeAIive - Raging Tide
    KeepMeAIive - Raging Tide Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ykc wrote: »
    So to be axe/claw would be (max str armor/weapon req) and all rest dex?

    No. b:shocked

    You reasons for wanting a clawbarb aside, to build a clawbarb you would put enough dex to use the claws, rest into strength for damage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    KeepMeAIive - Raging Tide wrote: »
    No. b:shocked

    You reasons for wanting a clawbarb aside, to build a clawbarb you would put enough dex to use the claws, rest into strength for damage.

    So depends on whatever claw would be to put enough dex... where i can find about it?
  • Roar_King - Sanctuary
    Roar_King - Sanctuary Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Usually 200 dex, rest strenght for claw/axe build.
  • ykc
    ykc Posts: 92 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Roar_King - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Usually 200 dex, rest strenght for claw/axe build.

    Any know if (new) r8 gear could have aps?

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