Making the BM class easier to play?

Toddloveleah - Harshlands · December 2014

Sometimes when we play bm I think we become numb to how much work we actually do compared to other classes. I'm not calling the BM underpowered but I am calling it complicated. It is complicated to the point of where if you don't basically master the class you won't have a chance.

Most archers just auto shot and use that evasion buff thing a long with left right so yeah not much difficulty there.

Sins while being somewhat complicated they always get the option to disappear and plan their next move which is a luxury no other class has unless those stealth pots are still around.

Clerics.....lol sog and you have all day to think of what you want to do which basically most clerics I see spam the same 4-5 moves over and over.

Wiz use that seal thing, gush, hop, use a different move, if the bm is g16 and you are at least g16 and they didnt marrow and do everything correct you probably won.

Psy, IG I don't know much about psys but they can stun you and decide to be immune to all your phys attacks so can't be much easier than that.

Barb stun, armor break, a move that hurts, morai skill that knocks person on the ground and makes them not attack, repeat

Seeker, maybe the class isn't that easy to play but vs MOST bms it couldnt be easier.

Mystic, read above

Veno, vs some classes veno is tricky but if you are a aps bm you lost and they don't even have to attack.

Bm vs most classes roar of pride, feriocious leap, drake sweep, hope aeolian blade works or start over, ferocious leap, drake ray, hope drake bash works or start over, marrow if you are facing mag, marrow if you are facing phys, leap back, mo zun taunt, smack if they run away and you are screwed and have no ways to get to them or stun....you get the point. Lol. Not even adding genies to the mix o.o

IK everyone plays BM different but I've watched pvp videos and there is not a class ive seen in pvp have to go through so many steps as the bm and if you make one wrong move, one wrong marrow its all over.

WannaBM - Archosaur · December 2014

b:cry b:cry b:cry

Go play angry birds.

teikiatsu11 · December 2014

I agree that quite a few of the other classes are simplified to the point of being mind numbingly boring to play but I'm actually happy to have a difficult class to play. It's not fun if it doesn't present a challenge.

Fail_BM - Raging Tide · December 2014

Toddloveleah - Harshlands wrote: »

Sometimes when we play bm I think we become numb to how much work we actually do compared to other classes. I'm not calling the BM underpowered but I am calling it complicated. It is complicated to the point of where if you don't basically master the class you won't have a chance.

Most archers just auto shot and use that evasion buff thing a long with left right so yeah not much difficulty there.
evasion lel
Sins while being somewhat complicated they always get the option to disappear and plan their next move which is a luxury no other class has unless those stealth pots are still around.
Archers can do the same thing.
Clerics.....lol sog and you have all day to think of what you want to do which basically most clerics I see spam the same 4-5 moves over and over.
Find any good PvP cleric, he is going to use more than 5 skills. Any decent PvP cleric has to use a lot of skills to survive.
Wiz use that seal thing, gush, hop, use a different move, if the bm is g16 and you are at least g16 and they didnt marrow and do everything correct you probably won.

Psy, IG I don't know much about psys but they can stun you and decide to be immune to all your phys attacks so can't be much easier than that.
The only OP stun psys have is Soul of Stunning, which can be prevented by a lot of things, you only need to notice the icon/animation.
Barb stun, armor break, a move that hurts, morai skill that knocks person on the ground and makes them not attack, repeat
nuffsaid
Seeker, maybe the class isn't that easy to play but vs MOST bms it couldnt be easier.

Mystic, read above

Veno, vs some classes veno is tricky but if you are a aps bm you lost and they don't even have to attack.

Bm vs most classes roar of pride, feriocious leap, drake sweep, hope aeolian blade works or start over, ferocious leap, drake ray, hope drake bash works or start over, marrow if you are facing mag, marrow if you are facing phys, leap back, mo zun taunt, smack if they run away and you are screwed and have no ways to get to them or stun....you get the point. Lol. Not even adding genies to the mix o.o

IK everyone plays BM different but I've watched pvp videos and there is not a class ive seen in pvp have to go through so many steps as the bm and if you make one wrong move, one wrong marrow its all over.

Thing is, every class has to do something to PvP. It is not 2-3 skills, I win.

BMs are very balanced, deadly killing machines for those who know how to use them, squishy HA users for beginners.

Although, sometimes I feel like their damage it a bit too low.

Zanryu - Lothranis · December 2014

Make BMs easier or so much as suggest and it I'll pop ya in the gobber m8 I swear on me mum

Zsw - Dreamweaver · December 2014

Toddloveleah - Harshlands wrote: »

Sometimes when we play bm I think we become numb to how much work we actually do compared to other classes. I'm not calling the BM underpowered but I am calling it complicated. It is complicated to the point of where if you don't basically master the class you won't have a chance.

Most archers just auto shot and use that evasion buff thing a long with left right so yeah not much difficulty there.

Sins while being somewhat complicated they always get the option to disappear and plan their next move which is a luxury no other class has unless those stealth pots are still around.

Clerics.....lol sog and you have all day to think of what you want to do which basically most clerics I see spam the same 4-5 moves over and over.

Wiz use that seal thing, gush, hop, use a different move, if the bm is g16 and you are at least g16 and they didnt marrow and do everything correct you probably won.

Psy, IG I don't know much about psys but they can stun you and decide to be immune to all your phys attacks so can't be much easier than that.

Barb stun, armor break, a move that hurts, morai skill that knocks person on the ground and makes them not attack, repeat

Seeker, maybe the class isn't that easy to play but vs MOST bms it couldnt be easier.

Mystic, read above

Veno, vs some classes veno is tricky but if you are a aps bm you lost and they don't even have to attack.

Bm vs most classes roar of pride, feriocious leap, drake sweep, hope aeolian blade works or start over, ferocious leap, drake ray, hope drake bash works or start over, marrow if you are facing mag, marrow if you are facing phys, leap back, mo zun taunt, smack if they run away and you are screwed and have no ways to get to them or stun....you get the point. Lol. Not even adding genies to the mix o.o

IK everyone plays BM different but I've watched pvp videos and there is not a class ive seen in pvp have to go through so many steps as the bm and if you make one wrong move, one wrong marrow its all over.

I don't think you played any of the other classes at all.

Evryn - Morai · December 2014

Blademasters aren't really made for one on ones. In group action they can be devestating with mass debuffs and mass control. In one on ones you can still go for the stunlock, but counter-control is a problem for the class. Suggest you make a control-breaking dex genie and give that a try.

Sylvae - Sanctuary · December 2014

Honestly, don't think the BM is the most complex one anymore.

Considering the gear available, it really has pigeon-holed BMs into being primarily single weapon focus with the occasional weapon swap for a particular skill (59 usually). And even that is rarely done, many BMs with G16 don't even know what the skills other than axe and maybe fist derp are called, or even what they do.

Now we bring on the Stormbringers, and this class is going to have so many tiers of skill it's going to make BMs look like easy bake instructions.

There will be the outgears, relying on their gear to just derp damage with no real clue what they are doing. There will be the ones who make use of the available orbs to decide which skill to use. There will be the ones who plan ahead to get the orbs they need for the skill rotation they want to maximize. There will be the ones who even in an interrupted chain, will be able to maintain the orbs and order they want for maximum effect. Then most likely the best ones, the ones who will purposefully gimp maximum effect to get the exact duration of a desired effect for greatest over-all output.

With just one weapon, their set-up seems like it will be far and away a much disparate view of skill compared to a BM. They have skills with differing effects based on what exact composition of orbs they currently have floating around them. Which should also make it more rewarding, since the opponent won't always know the exact numbers to expect from status, or even what a given skill will do.

Just tossing this out since it addresses the topic a bit, and also gives people who liked the BM for past complexity a similar play experience, with much less cost for gearing up.

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver · December 2014

Stormbringers harder then bm ? hell no not a cold day in hell. Stormbring superior Kite ability , Anti Stun skill,DD while runin+range Stun +Channeling buff+mag debuff added with a puifyproc weapon = Ophex x10. It like Unreal Tourney toon in a RPGMMO. The trick is gonna be able to mobilize an endgame Stormbringer "gl with that" vs a bm at endgame i can almost bet it gonna come down to a successful Reel In if those two classes go at it, and we know how Reel in goes with its Failness when u need it most.

BM is by far thee most difficult class to play (tho wizards are strugglin now alot more then ever in 1v1 pvp, prolly raging at the Stormbringers since some of that class abilitys would have kept Wizards in the better part of the food chain) but not as hard to play as a bm still cause they got them nukes thats just hurt. pit with every other class a Bm rarely is allowed to make a mistake. R9 axes alone with Gof may sound sweet "HOWEVER" , notice more bms with a sword in they hand? theres a reason for it other then looking shiny, primal kinda forced the use of poles and swords now. There is no Fist skill (primal version) wise cause we all know fist for when we lazy in PVE. I have seen videos, i have watch awsome bms get down in pvp struggling/finger crampin just tryna live, manage chi and tryna set up a combo that might hold them a Victory with little or no room for mistakes or the earth will take them.

Where does most mistake come from when playing a BM? Weapon Switching, bad timing expect to be pawned, miss click on weapon switch equal pawn. wrong marrow up expect to be pawned hell sometimes even with the right marrow on , Leap on bad terrain get pawned lol, Most other class vs equal gear just need a good 6-8 sec lock and bm finish . Bms got all kinda stuns and can give a good average 13-17 sec lock and even if that successful, and they targets genie aint saved them , lucky we hit hard enough to drop our targets. soon after. Most case is build chi to redo it all over again making every offence a ride or die situation.

Bm missing alot vs the post primal Dex classes? okay we need break out the sword and try to drop they evasion and hope that debuff lands.

Now i dont know much of the new Dex class on their difficult to play rateing. But i will have to go with Zan on this one. Bm is not easy to master and even if so , it is not easy to play. For the ppl that think Bm is fun to play its because they like the challenge of playing it.

Evryn - Morai · December 2014

Sylvae - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering the gear available, it really has pigeon-holed BMs into being primarily single weapon focus with the occasional weapon swap for a particular skill (59 usually). And even that is rarely done, many BMs with G16 don't even know what the skills other than axe and maybe fist derp are called, or even what they do.

That says nothing about class complexity, but more about the drones who fail at fully utilising the class. I admit that I'm seeing the spear and sword skills underutilized... probably because it's bat**** insane to +12 4 separate weapons (not to mention craft Warsoul versions of all but the axe for the proper damage output)

BMs can be very versatile and can be a nightmare to arcane classes. Thought archers were annoying with a purge bow? BMs can use a spear for the same thing... Glacial Spike with a purge spear in a clusterbrawl can cause more then a few enemy casualties. Sword version of Star Smite hits quick, hard and generates a ton of chi on the sage end, and interrupts at range. Handy for fubaring a combo move.

Problem with the BM is that you need to keep almost everything on manual control - combos can be iffy with required weapon switches unless your timing is perfect (weapon switch does not cancel a combo, but if you don't have the right weapon at the right time, skills are skipped over). BMs also require a lot of counter-actions depending on what your opponent does, and does not do. It's not a class for "press combo to win" players.

'Xept on PvE, where peeps seem to think casting HF every now and then suffices for being a great BM. I call that a useful BM at most, definately not a great one. Great BMs in PvE know that you've got other debuffs too: Glacial Spike is the most severe phys and mag defense debuff in the game and will stack with HF and Extreme Poison - effectively causing x4 damage instead of x2 if timed right. Myriad Sword can be a "oh****weneedtorebuff" saver. River Avalanche -forces- aggro onto the BM, much like Flesh Ream does and can be a squad saver should your primary tank die (River Avalanche - Marrow Phys - Buddas Guard and you can tank Mushi during rampage, done that more then once when the tank forgot to invoke. Follow up with Myriad Sword and Diamond Sutra as needed). And ofc the good old Roar of the Pride at the end of a pull... prevents the worst of the damage being dealt to your party and can save squishies. Especially in PV and similar instances.

Can't comment much on the Stormbringer. I've not tried one.

Asterelle - Sanctuary · December 2014

If you want to make BM easier just remove all the useful skills until you're left with only autoattack and leaps.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · December 2014

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you want to make BM easier just remove all the useful skills until you're left with only autoattack and leaps.

Pretty sure that's what's already happened

@Ikiekswrodscauseimichigowow guy: Just roll seeker already ffs

@Idiots mistakign class weakness for class complexity: Shut the hell up forever kthxbai

Sylvae - Sanctuary · December 2014

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Stormbringers harder then bm ? hell no not a cold day in hell. Stormbring superior Kite ability , Anti Stun skill,DD while runin+range Stun +Channeling buff+mag debuff added with a puifyproc weapon = Ophex x10. It like Unreal Tourney toon in a RPGMMO. The trick is gonna be able to mobilize an endgame Stormbringer "gl with that" vs a bm at endgame i can almost bet it gonna come down to a successful Reel In if those two classes go at it, and we know how Reel in goes with its Failness when u need it most.

You're mistaking difficulty with complexity, and ignored that there are many factors for why people play BMs as simply as they do.

If there was more robust weaponry choices for end game BMs to be competitive with, there might be more weapon swapping. If there weren't so many skills that were meh even when weapons were more equal, there would be more complexity as well.

However for the skills that are good, and the effects they give in current meta-game, there isn't as much a point to many of them. BMs can point to the wall of skills as proof of difficulty/complexity, but take out all the ones that even the few good BMs never use and you're losing a good amount.

Weapon swapping for all the different buffs/debuffs while in a chain and cancel casting was pretty much the heyday of BM difficulty. Nowadays BMs mostly don't swap at all, and the areas that require that level of skill are few and far between. So the complexity is pretty much gone, as is most of the difficulty. I can use chains mapped out for maximum damage output I made back in 2009 utilizing after cast canceling for maximum effect, and using skills that people thought were bad back then because they sucked at math. Now that the fast channel skills are obviously useful nowadays, people want to pretend using them is complexity? It's obvious, it's just so many took so long to grasp the obvious.

Even in NW fighting BMs, it's always the same thing, same timings. If they don't instantly annihilate with gear, it's ridiculously simple to beat them down. There is no real complexity in the BM when fighting against them when you know the class. Stormbringer even knowing the class, won't tell you the timings behind it.

You can bring up weapon swapping like it's a current things, but unless it's GS to HF to insta piff a boss in PvE that doesn't happen. The only time I've seen a GS from any BM in any NW I've been in, were the ones I used, or if I saw Joshcja or Saku. That's it. People don't even swap to pole for serk crit farstrikes, they use it usually for DEF lvl before swapping to rank axe for any real damage. If people did this, in actual pvp, on a consistent basis; sure, there'd be at least some of the old complexity back. But they don't, and it doesn't have it.

EDIT: Or to clarify more, BMs will have certain skill rotations for what they are doing. These skill rotations are more or less set, based on BM skill and the time they have to do it. It doesn't really change, unless acted upon by an outside force. Stormbringers will flat out have their very rotations changed, every time they increase in -chan. They have short duration buffs, that change their orb set-up, and determining when and where to have, renew, or let lapse is only a small portion of the complexity of the class. It is a very pattern based class, that changes for needs of individual skill adds, -chan, desired buffs, time of buffs, etc.

Bottom line, most of the people playing stormbringers will be like the god-awful twit BMs who went vit axe and claimed fists were worthless. They will be awful, they won't get in-depth on the class, and they will rely on gear to get through their skilllessness. It's why I'm focusing so much on my Stormbringer, there is so much to constantly tweak and work through. It's almost like rolling my 2008 all weapon BM all over again.

Evryn - Morai · December 2014

Useless skills on the weapon trees? Let's take a look at all the weapon-specific ones:

Fist: Mainly used for APS vs npcs. Used to be the mainstay of farming BMs and still is to an extent.
- Vacuous Palm: Rarely used it - burns a spark for an 8 second -heavy- slowdown. This skill shouldn't require that much chi imho
Usefulness: Low.
- Shadowless Kick: Cheap and very effective interrupt. Useful in PvE and PvP as such.
Usefulness: High
- Cyclone Heel: Raises APS for a while. Most useful on sage side.
Usefulness: Moderate
- Drakes Breath: Not so useful, adds some fire damage. Usually not worth the sparks.
Usefulness: Low
- Bolt of Tyreseus: AOE freeze. Can be handy as an AOE at times but fists aren't the best weapons to AOE with.
Usefulness: Moderate

Pike: Generally used for range.
- Piercing Winds: Frontal box AOE. Can be chained with Meteor Rush/Starsmite to AOE everything in front of you quickly, but most people use axe skills for AOEs
Usefulness: Moderate
- Farstrike: Primal version does heavy damage and freezes. Pre-primal versions don't have enough reach. Primal version can snipe arcanes quite nicely, and freezes those annoying runner mobs.
Usefulness: High
- Meteor Rush: Frontal box AOE. I've used it in PvE to knock mobs into an AOE grinder. Niche skill - not much use in PvP as it doesn't knock back players like Bramble Tornado does.
Usefulness: Moderate
- Glacial Spike: Heaviest defense debuff in the game. Chain with Heavens Flame (and extreme poison) for maximum effect if something needs to die in under 10 seconds.
Usefulness: Very high

Sword: Generally used to combat casters.
- Mage Bane: Raises channeling speed but you have to be at melee range to use it. "Never misses" however - useful to land some damage on an archer or sin and debilitate those a bit.
Usefulness: Moderate
- Spirit Chaser: Ranged damage dealing. Pre-primal versions don't have the range. Primal version can be used before primal Farstrike to boost the crit chance of the latter.
Usefulness: High
- Atmos Strike: Like Meteor Rush but single target only.
Usefulness: Low
- Myriad Sword stance: Heaviest damage debuff in the game. Also, it is a ranged AOE that can be used on a group of enemies while not running into the thick of things.
Usefulness: High
- Flash: Everyone who's always crying about the sin's Elimination skill should take a look at this skill. It does about the same thing. A timely triggering of Tree of Protection can ensure your health is low enough to trigger the second hit. Long cooldown, use when it can finish someone off. This skill is underutilized.
Usefulness: High

Axe: Generally used for AOE damage dealing
- Drake Bash: Stuns the target for a while. Used in PvP in stunlock chains.
Usefulness: High
- Highland Cleave: AOE. 'nuff said.
Usefulness: High
- Fissure: 'Nother AOE. 'nuff said.
Usefulness: High
- Heavens Flame: Signature skill of the BM class and the reason they're wanted in parties. Doubles damage.
Usefulness: Extreme
- Hillborn: Primal combine of the 2 axe AOE's. Heavier AOE. 'Nuff said.
Usefulness: High

Combined primal skills:
- Star Smite: Frontal box AOE like Meteor Rush. Sword version generates a good amount of Chi and can be used as such. Pole version has an unreliable stun that can be useful on the pve side after pulls (leap back, tab to whatever is running at you, starsmite)
Usefulness: High for the sword version, Moderate for the pole version
- Dragon Rising: The paralyzing skill. Polearms do bleed damage, and a lot of it. Swords raise channeling, axes extend the paralyze with an additional stun time. The paralyze makes the stun and channel debuffs more or less pointless, so the Pole version is likely the best one. Most players get this primarily for the paralyze effect however - very useful in PvP.
Usefulness: High

Looking at the list, all weapons have at least some skills that are useful enough to warrant weapon switching. However, at lower levels BMs are generally not triggered to try out the sword and pole trees much (too costly to skill them up synchronously with the axe and fist skills), so by the time most reach endgame they're only familiar with the axe and fist skills. Which are primarily for AOE dd and single target dd.

Toddloveleah - Harshlands · December 2014

@ Fail bm, no duh their damage is low. A key example I have is my seeker at lvl 100, not even fully skilled I can hit over 300k on the dummy test damage thingy.

BmLvl 101- Can hit about 240k, with crit, with dg and white tea. Same gear, actually worse cards I dont even have a B card on my seeker.

Yeah a little more than just a bit underpowered....not even mentioning my seeks swords are +4 and my bms axes are +7 and yet there is a 60k damage gap there lololol.

@Zsw, Okay so sins don't go into stealth when they are about dead? You can leave now. Bm's don't get that option thus making them more difficult and I don't even want to get into how much easier it is to farm with a Sin.

@Slyvae, Oh so the new classes with extremely OP skills, and lvl 80 gear that gives them about the same amount of attk and def lvls as a full g16 is more difficult? Explain plz. Not to mention they replicated original class skills into the duskblade and stormbringer taking down importance of other classes for a already OP race.

Nice that you assume I only use axes, no you are completely fail if you only use one weapon which then again other classes don't do that they maybe switch to r8r for def reasons but not for 4 different trees of skills. You can leave now also.

@Sel Darkmore EXACTLY I've watched pvp videos on so many classes and BM is just the only class that makes it look like you are clicking and slamming so many buttons and switching weapons with no rhyme or reason.

Not really sure about wizzys being that hard ive seen pvp videos that this OP wiz on HL maybe used 4-5 skills and some pots.

@Evryn exactly a lot of clicking must happen and you can not use same combos in PVP as PVE which is standard among classes but once again if you are a decent bm you have skills from 3 -4 different weapon trees to worry about.

@Evyrn again, yeah Flash is a skill im thinking about getting. I've seen bms actually have good success DD'ing in pvp and even one shotting weaker g`16s/r9 with the skill with only g16 blades.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · December 2014

[QUOTE=Toddloveleah - Harshlands;22157171
Nice that you assume I only use axes, no you are completely fail if you only use one weapon which then again other classes don't do that they maybe switch to r8r for def reasons but not for 4 different trees of skills. You can leave now also.

@Sel Darkmore EXACTLY I've watched pvp videos on so many classes and BM is just the only class that makes it look like you are clicking and slamming so many buttons and switching weapons with no rhyme or reason.

That's because most pvp bm's who are not full axe do in fact gear swap for no real reason its really painful to watch as most of it is just counterproductive hur hur I have 4 weps I wanna use em.
[/QUOTE]

Anyone who played bm competitively and (didn't totally suck) in 08 is BORED when playing one now.

Weapon useage in pvp/

Axe: ****ing everything
Pole: 1 chi skill if demon, SBH, backup stun
Sword: Chi skill when your slow rolling lock for chi management on HA/LA
Fist: Bolt after a lift, shadowless r999 mages for giggles???

Pretty much all we have now is mind games for minimizing the amount of IAMTHEBULL rushing you need to do and some minor hitbox abuse,server lag, stunlock buffering tricks that are dumbstupid easy and useable by every class.

X_Rays - Sanctuary · December 2014

BMs are already made a lot easier to play by the primal update. Now you can press 123 and get a stunlock.

Making the BM class easier to play?

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