What's wrong with sins?
nbreaking
Posts: 607 Arc User
Ok, before anyone starts reading, no, this is not one of those "SIN ISH OP" threads, this is just a documentary about my FS run today.
Ok, a barb starts a squad, I join, at the end, the squad was composed of: 5 sins (myself included), 1 BM, 1 Barb, 2 Clerics and 1 psy. Ok, no problem so far even though everyone started complaining right away about the sins <.<.
Anyway, I think to myself "Well, if all the sins know what they are doing, plus the other classes, this will be a typical FS run". Man... could I be more wrong?
Ok, the squad itself did very well, but let's focus on the sins for the rest of this post.
2 sins are r9rr (myself and another one), 2 sins are zerk sins (T2 zerk with int) and 1 sin is T3 nirvana.
We proceed to the first boss, sins are still not inside, we clear the boss. So far so good.
At the 2nd boss (drake) everyone is in and we start it... right away, the 2 zerk sins and the T3 one go APS. The squad starts asking them to please not go APS, but they don't listen.
Then, at the toad, the T3 sin decides to go DPH with CotD, the 2 zerk sins however, decide they will stick to the APS approach. At this moment we notice that not only they deal almost no damage, they are also killing themselves with zerk. We explain to them what is going on and how the bosses have anti-aps and their zerk is killing them (keep in mind, none of them ever replied to what we were saying).
At the 4th boss (blossom) they once again decide to stick to the APS, at this point the squad starts mocking them and begging them to stop because they are not helping.
We get to the throne room, the 5 bosses spawn, we kill them all (finally they were able to use their APS) except for the physical immune. I switch back to DPH, use condensed thorn and use subsea, elimination and toxic torrent to help the magic DDs and to do DoT damage, but, guess what the other 2 zerk sins are doing? Yup, they are APSing the physical immune boss, without even using condensed thorn and 1 of them actually died from zerk LOL
At Mushii, the story repeats itself, but we kill him. Again, like I said, not once did they reply to us but at the end when Mushii died one of them said "Ty" and the other "Thanks, really good squad"... So... were they ignoring us? Do they not speak english? I don't know... The only thing I know is that I don't understand why people would do this.
P.S: I don't have anything against APS, but, there are situations when it is effective to use APS and other situations where it isn't... FS is one of the latter.
This is one of the reasons people don't take sins (or just take 1) to FS...
Share your thoughts about this and experiences in any anti-aps instances with sins.
tl,dr: Sins APSing bosses in FS with zerk and killing themselves.
Ok, a barb starts a squad, I join, at the end, the squad was composed of: 5 sins (myself included), 1 BM, 1 Barb, 2 Clerics and 1 psy. Ok, no problem so far even though everyone started complaining right away about the sins <.<.
Anyway, I think to myself "Well, if all the sins know what they are doing, plus the other classes, this will be a typical FS run". Man... could I be more wrong?
Ok, the squad itself did very well, but let's focus on the sins for the rest of this post.
2 sins are r9rr (myself and another one), 2 sins are zerk sins (T2 zerk with int) and 1 sin is T3 nirvana.
We proceed to the first boss, sins are still not inside, we clear the boss. So far so good.
At the 2nd boss (drake) everyone is in and we start it... right away, the 2 zerk sins and the T3 one go APS. The squad starts asking them to please not go APS, but they don't listen.
Then, at the toad, the T3 sin decides to go DPH with CotD, the 2 zerk sins however, decide they will stick to the APS approach. At this moment we notice that not only they deal almost no damage, they are also killing themselves with zerk. We explain to them what is going on and how the bosses have anti-aps and their zerk is killing them (keep in mind, none of them ever replied to what we were saying).
At the 4th boss (blossom) they once again decide to stick to the APS, at this point the squad starts mocking them and begging them to stop because they are not helping.
We get to the throne room, the 5 bosses spawn, we kill them all (finally they were able to use their APS) except for the physical immune. I switch back to DPH, use condensed thorn and use subsea, elimination and toxic torrent to help the magic DDs and to do DoT damage, but, guess what the other 2 zerk sins are doing? Yup, they are APSing the physical immune boss, without even using condensed thorn and 1 of them actually died from zerk LOL
At Mushii, the story repeats itself, but we kill him. Again, like I said, not once did they reply to us but at the end when Mushii died one of them said "Ty" and the other "Thanks, really good squad"... So... were they ignoring us? Do they not speak english? I don't know... The only thing I know is that I don't understand why people would do this.
P.S: I don't have anything against APS, but, there are situations when it is effective to use APS and other situations where it isn't... FS is one of the latter.
This is one of the reasons people don't take sins (or just take 1) to FS...
Share your thoughts about this and experiences in any anti-aps instances with sins.
tl,dr: Sins APSing bosses in FS with zerk and killing themselves.
Mr. Justice
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
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iirc, you can't actually kill yourself with zerks. the last bit of hp had to come from a hit of something.
Regardless, most sins are still imbeciles.Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »iirc, you can't actually kill yourself with zerks. the last bit of hp had to come from a hit of something.
Regardless, most sins are still imbeciles.
Thanks, I actually didn't know you can't kill yourself with zerk, maybe he was hit with something else when he was "dead" (as in, when he took all of his hp down <.<) as you said. I never tried it.
Mr. Justice0 -
If it a sin I know, I'm more than happy to take him in. Sins are pretty good DD, but it is true a lot of sins just have aps in their head, and therefore even I avoid taking sins at times. It's not so bad anymore because the squad I do with usually have decent DD already, and I see a lot of sins having trouble finding squads, but if I remember them being aps-only sins... They are not my first choice.
Btw, physical immune is also immune to debuffs that increase damage taken by % (subsea, extreme poison, hf, amp etc, exactly like the old "HF-immune" bosses in nirvana)
So even using your water buff before subsea, that won't work.youtube.com/user/Cebloon
~ not that there is that much to see (yet?)0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »iirc, you can't actually kill yourself with zerks. the last bit of hp had to come from a hit of something.
Regardless, most sins are still imbeciles.
Every boss in FSP has an AoE. If the sin's zerk themselves to 10% hp and boss aoe's, you bet they died like a charm. They would survive the aoe's without zerk taking away their HP.
@OP: +1 for your patience, if I see a sin aps'ing on 1st boss (with aps shield on) I tell them to go DPH as APS does nothing. If I still see them doing so on Ice Drake and Toad I will simply kick them. They give the healers unncessecary work and contribute nothing to the squad (not even subsea or ribstrike) and have been given ample time to comply and do something useful.
The shields have been around for a long time now and they should know by now. If they still APS, they're gone. More pages for the rest of us and less mp pots used for the healers.
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Satyrion - Sanctuary wrote: »If it a sin I know, I'm more than happy to take him in. Sins are pretty good DD, but it is true a lot of sins just have aps in their head, and therefore even I avoid taking sins at times. It's not so bad anymore because the squad I do with usually have decent DD already, and I see a lot of sins having trouble finding squads, but if I remember them being aps-only sins... They are not my first choice.
Btw, physical immune is also immune to debuffs that increase damage taken by % (subsea, extreme poison, hf, amp etc, exactly like the old "HF-immune" bosses in nirvana)
So even using your water buff before subsea, that won't work.
Are you sure? I am not going to disagree about the physical immune boss in FS, I will pay attention the next time, but, at least on the physical immune mobs in SoT, if you use condensed thorn you can inflict subsea's debuff, that I am sure. I also know for a fact that it does not affect the elemental immune one, are you sure you are not mixing them up?
Mr. Justice0 -
hey man that theyre not doing damage is just your opinion man, thers more than 1 way to play a sin!
(yah..math is an "opinion")
---literally had a r9s3+12 sin tell me that yday when they apsd entire time..with CoD on...and thought it didnt coutn as APS/melee damage.....
so yah the ns3+10 sin tanked toad and most all the other bosses that run... while the r9s3+12 was useless
i just dont even, i feel your pain.0 -
If the sin died because of aps it means your clerics seem to be pretty bad... That being said, I always wonder how people rely on aps so much even if it's not appropriate, like in the case of FSP.
Maybe you could've tried pm'ing them. People don't always (only) have their squad chat open, though they should. b:surrenderWorld is full of illusions.
________________________
What if I played a Cleric?
________________________
All Joy In Keeping Us Medically Energetic.0 -
Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »hey man that theyre not doing damage is just your opinion man, thers more than 1 way to play a sin!
(yah..math is an "opinion")
---literally had a r9s3+12 sin tell me that yday when they apsd entire time..with CoD on...and thought it didnt coutn as APS/melee damage.....
so yah the ns3+10 sin tanked toad and most all the other bosses that run... while the r9s3+12 was useless
i just dont even, i feel your pain.
don't lie i am +11 ns3 sin, not +10 b:chuckle
but ya basicly some ppl don't kow how to play and it's sad that i was tanking toad instead of +12 r9s3 sin b:sad0 -
Lol the original post.... That is exactly why Assassin's have the Derpy reputation. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Barbarian 103 - 101 - 101
Started playing on March 20100 -
Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »hey man that theyre not doing damage is just your opinion man, thers more than 1 way to play a sin!
(yah..math is an "opinion")
---literally had a r9s3+12 sin tell me that yday when they apsd entire time..with CoD on...and thought it didnt coutn as APS/melee damage.....
so yah the ns3+10 sin tanked toad and most all the other bosses that run... while the r9s3+12 was useless
i just dont even, i feel your pain.
Hey hey... It's not APSing if you have chill b:shutup b:laughLolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »Lol the original post.... That is exactly why Assassin's have the Derpy reputation. b:chuckle
I actually think that sins are using their heads more often... But still you see these derps. By all means, I am not the best player in the world but some things are a bit basic.Fryvorg - Sanctuary wrote: »If the sin died because of aps it means your clerics seem to be pretty bad... That being said, I always wonder how people rely on aps so much even if it's not appropriate, like in the case of FSP.
Maybe you could've tried pm'ing them. People don't always (only) have their squad chat open, though they should. b:surrender
The cleric was not caring anymore at all, they were both told several times to not do it, I am guessing the cleric got fed up.
I didn't try to PM either of them, if that was the case and they were not seeing squad chat, it is somewhat excusable, but by this point I think that anyone who knows FS knows that the bosses have anti-aps.
Mr. Justice0 -
We need to highlight APS BMs too... I have a BM that has APS gear and full T3... I gain all the chi I need and more from the BM skills so there is no reason to EVER see claws/fists except the final room and interrupting blossom. There is simply no excuse to APS as a BM, you can get your chi to HF or triple spark or GS or a combination from skills so actually dealing damage too.
The only thing I can think of is you're stupid, lazy or so cheap that you can't afford MP charm/MP pots (that I farm free from divines easily >.>).0 -
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread. People should have learned this by now.
That being said I can think of a scenario where APSing an anti APS boss is not horrible (not optimal either, but not horrible). It requires 3 things:
5 APS (not 4 or 3.33... 5!)
Non-Zerk Weapon
No endless breeze upgrades (skill damage passive)
All else being equal in this scenario, APSing will do about 85% as much damage as a good skill rotation. For a newly 100 1st rb toon this could be acceptable since, let's face it, prior to FS, there are no regularly attended anti APS bosses since they got rid of SoT/Abba as BH1 and unless you have Life Hunter, it takes time to learn effective skill rotation as a sin. Just randomly using skills will likely fall short of even that 85% making APS a reasonable option.
That being said, if they don't fit even one of these 3 requirements, they're better off tossing up chill and mashing their face on the keyboard.0 -
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread. People should have learned this by now.
That being said I can think of a scenario where APSing an anti APS boss is not horrible (not optimal either, but not horrible). It requires 3 things:
5 APS (not 4 or 3.33... 5!)
Non-Zerk Weapon
No endless breeze upgrades (skill damage passive)
All else being equal in this scenario, APSing will do about 85% as much damage as a good skill rotation. For a newly 100 1st rb toon this could be acceptable since, let's face it, prior to FS, there are no regularly attended anti APS bosses since they got rid of SoT/Abba as BH1 and unless you have Life Hunter, it takes time to learn effective skill rotation as a sin. Just randomly using skills will likely fall short of even that 85% making APS a reasonable option.
That being said, if they don't fit even one of these 3 requirements, they're better off tossing up chill and mashing their face on the keyboard.
>This entire post
>Still believing anything like this is true
4-5 aps has a nerf to begin with.
It will never have nowhere near the damage output as using skills against those bosses.Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »>This entire post
>Still believing anything like this is true
4-5 aps has a nerf to begin with.
It will never have nowhere near the damage output as using skills against those bosses.
I'm not about to break this down for you. It's a very specific circumstance I've outlined and everything I said is true. I'm not here to argue but your response is as ignorant as those who insist that APS can keep up. I said it's reasonable, not optimal.
In the end I don't care... I do enough damage myself that the squad can do whatever they please, including the ignorant APSing sins.0 -
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread. People should have learned this by now.
That being said I can think of a scenario where APSing an anti APS boss is not horrible (not optimal either, but not horrible). It requires 3 things:
5 APS (not 4 or 3.33... 5!)
Non-Zerk Weapon
No endless breeze upgrades (skill damage passive)
All else being equal in this scenario, APSing will do about 85% as much damage as a good skill rotation. For a newly 100 1st rb toon this could be acceptable since, let's face it, prior to FS, there are no regularly attended anti APS bosses since they got rid of SoT/Abba as BH1 and unless you have Life Hunter, it takes time to learn effective skill rotation as a sin. Just randomly using skills will likely fall short of even that 85% making APS a reasonable option.
That being said, if they don't fit even one of these 3 requirements, they're better off tossing up chill and mashing their face on the keyboard.
Ehm whut? My sin is 5aps G16 +7, sparked aps'ing is like 300-600 dmg per hit. 1 skill is about 15-30k (undebuffed boss). Aps'ing is nowhere near a viable excuse to do in APS-shielded boss (because, think of this, it's a shield that protects against APS-craze!!!)0 -
+1 to the OP i can feel your pain.
I made so many squads by now where anti aps is a thing that i just kick the sin when i see them still apsing after telling him not to.
in fsp you have a little time to kick someone and still can find people because at the first boss you can tell and second boss you either have a DPH sin or a free spot for a actual damage dealing person.
APS in FSP and many other instances is useless most of the time.
But what breaks the bottle for me mostly is sins (or BMs) APS in UCH because they dont want to DPH or they think aps deals more damage. There is a time and place for aps but UCH is defenitely not the place.
I dont have the patience anymore for APS people (i mostly let BMs in the squad because of the debuffs but when i have two and one of them is apsing i mostly kick em aswell) and i think after all those years and with DPH gear is getting cheaper and easier to get you would think they get their **** together but nope.0 -
Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »hey man that theyre not doing damage is just your opinion man, thers more than 1 way to play a sin!
(yah..math is an "opinion")
---literally had a r9s3+12 sin tell me that yday when they apsd entire time..with CoD on...and thought it didnt coutn as APS/melee damage.....
so yah the ns3+10 sin tanked toad and most all the other bosses that run... while the r9s3+12 was useless
i just dont even, i feel your pain.
haha mosz, i can think of a sin that fits that description exactly b:laugh[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Verenor - Morai wrote: »Ehm whut? My sin is 5aps G16 +7, sparked aps'ing is like 300-600 dmg per hit. 1 skill is about 15-30k (undebuffed boss). Aps'ing is nowhere near a viable excuse to do in APS-shielded boss (because, think of this, it's a shield that protects against APS-craze!!!)
I'm not trying to defend APS. I don't do it. All I did was present a situation where the losses aren't that bad.
FFS here:
5 APS = 5 base damage per second
Modifiers:
*0.95 APS nerf
*1.90 from Attack Levels
*0.25 from Anti-APS Buff
= 2.25625 base damage per second.
I'll use spell cutter as a base to illustrate as it has the highest DPS of non primal skills
Spell Cutter: Deals base physical damage plus 3834 in 1 second
~= 1.125 base damage per second (when sparked)
Modifiers:
*2.3 from Attack Levels (with chill)
= 2.5875 base damage per second.
And finally:
2.25625/2.5875 = 0.872 or 87.2%0 -
DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »>This entire post
>Still believing anything like this is true
4-5 aps has a nerf to begin with.
It will never have nowhere near the damage output as using skills against those bosses.
5 aps g16 w/o the primal skills passive, or invigorate, does roughly the same damage as that same dagger does skills spamming. This has been proven, multiple times. You are arguing from ignorance here.
And if you don't beleive me, ask any APS sin that regularly does CoA on DW. Even PG's sin APSes those bosses....because the damage difference is minimal.0 -
Thank you Dion.0
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Verenor - Morai wrote: »Ehm whut? My sin is 5aps G16 +7, sparked aps'ing is like 300-600 dmg per hit. 1 skill is about 15-30k (undebuffed boss). Aps'ing is nowhere near a viable excuse to do in APS-shielded boss (because, think of this, it's a shield that protects against APS-craze!!!)
I call bullsh*t here. I was once g16 +7 (sage) and was hitting around 30k on crits only. Your nomal hit is probably closer to 12k.0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »5 aps g16 w/o the primal skills passive, or invigorate, does roughly the same damage as that same dagger does skills spamming. This has been proven, multiple times. You are arguing from ignorance here.
And if you don't beleive me, ask any APS sin that regularly does CoA on DW. Even PG's sin APSes those bosses....because the damage difference is minimal.
but the thing is, who doesnt have primal passives nowadays?
also since we're talking about fsp and fsp bosses, i dont think the damage difference is minimal in there. I mean, i dont think ive ever apsed an fsp boss to deal a total damage of over 3 mil 3 sparked in 2.6 seconds (earthen rift on tyrant boss for example)[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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456 fashion items and counting
#1 Adversity - tinyurl.com/Xinversity b:thanks0 -
Xinnz - Heavens Tear wrote: »but the thing is, who doesnt have primal passives nowadays?
also since we're talking about fsp and fsp bosses, i dont think the damage difference is minimal in there. I mean, i dont think ive ever apsed an fsp boss to deal a total damage of over 3 mil 3 sparked in 2.6 seconds (earthen rift on tyrant boss for example)
It's true that few people won't have at least a few passives. Also, a seeker (unless they're an idiot and doesn't debuff) and/or mystic (with invigorate) in squad renders APS as useless by comparison regardless of whether or not they have passives.
Curious why you would ever use Rift on a boss... unless you just wanted to see big numbers. In the time it takes to cast you can do almost twice as much damage using other skills.0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »5 aps g16 w/o the primal skills passive, or invigorate, does roughly the same damage as that same dagger does skills spamming. This has been proven, multiple times. You are arguing from ignorance here.
And if you don't beleive me, ask any APS sin that regularly does CoA on DW. Even PG's sin APSes those bosses....because the damage difference is minimal.
>Without primal passives
>Still
Yeah, ok, didn't know the people who play still don't have those passives to at least level 7 from the first part of the expansion.Soon™
Well, maybe later, semi-retired.0 -
Alts mostly.. I know players with alt sins they run just for FS and have never bothered with the dailies and therefore are still arcane 1... Sure, they're not doing anything to help out the squad and in that respect they're jerks. But they're still around. Also, can't remove the rare new player.0
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DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »I call bullsh*t here. I was once g16 +7 (sage) and was hitting around 30k on crits only. Your nomal hit is probably closer to 12k.
I call nitpick here. You do know various skills deal various damage right? Sage/demon difference is about the same difference as having lv8 primal passive, even if it means very little but my sin has it. Not exactly a game changer. I almost forgot about War Avatars, how about thatb:thanks
But just to humeur you say the average hits are 12k. The avg aps hits are 450, being 5aps that goes to 2250 dmg p/sec. That means the aps'er needs 5.3 seconds to deal the same damage as 1 skill. None of sin's skills require 5 seconds to cast, the avg is about 2sec (or even faster for Life Hunter with 1.4).
It would take an aps sin, sparked, 5.3 seconds to deal the same damage as 1 skillcast, unsparked.
Compared to sins with Life Hunter they are 3.8 times weaker and roughly 2.5 times weaker DD than non-primal skills.
APS + FSP = fail sin, nomatter what gears and what APS you have. If you somehow magically reached 5aps R9, maybe with CotD, then I'd say alright fine, and that would merely be because of having achieved such a thing.0 -
Perhaps I'm too forgiving.. but for me the only true fail in FSP is dying (or letting someone die to debuff) and making your squad wait and hold a boss. Short of that I don't care if people stand there with their thumbs up their *****. With 10 players in squad it really shouldn't matter if at least 3 know what they're doing and the rest can at least stay alive. Is morai really so full of dumb players that you can't get even 3 decent ones in a random squad?0
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>Choosing to use APS over skills on bosses who are APS retardant
>Not trying to maximize you/your party's damage as a DD safely
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Those sins are probably relic sins from days of Nirvana or FF/FC, now with ra and primal skills skill spamming sins can deal more damage.
In FS, squad with decent gear, triple spark, multiple debuffs and skill spamming can kill bosses faster. I've been in squad where bm/sin just apsing bosses (they didn't even know how to interupt blossom boss), and guess what, they also didnt listen to squad instruction to switch to skill spamming with CoD, I guess those type of player are the one who didnt understand english or just plain ignorant.
Even my BM rarely use aps anymore since skill spamming deals more damage. Aps can still be use on some area like RB bosses or tt, but it shouldn't be the only way to play bm/sin.
b:surrender I guess most aps sin/bm never truly learn their class and prefer the lazy way to play via aps. Once I saw a bm in cage guard in primal, he lure all the guards, then start apsing them one by one b:cryHeaven Tear
Liveena 102/102/102 Demon Cleric
Milfeena 103/102 Demon BM
Silpheena 104/103/102 Sage R9S3 Seeker
Cieleena 101/101/101 Sage Stormbringer0 -
To all of you I have a couple things to say here:
...don't faceroll....
Imagine you've been doing FSP for months now and along comes a new sin who's never done it. In fact, imagine any class coming along who's never done it. Are you patient enough to tell them important things they should know?
The reason I'm saying this is because I've been doing FSP on my sin and veno for a while now and guess what - THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER HEARD BOSSES HAVE ANTI-APS!!!!!
Suddenly I now realize (like OF COURSE) why I do piddly *** damage when auto-attacking and something like a rib strike does 50k damage.
Dam, maybe people just don't know.
EDIT - dang now I'm going to have to upgrade all those skills I never use
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