The Future of FCC

245

Comments

  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    We may as well have everyone start off at 100 w/ Vacuity Cultivatoin and all skills up to that point learned. Since thats where everyone is/where the game "begins" and everyone can "figure out the game" from just a few hours of play~

    Erase all the other "unimportant and outdated" content while we're at it. b:laugh

    b:shutup

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  • Demodude - Dreamweaver
    Demodude - Dreamweaver Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The way I see it FC should be returned to the way it was before this past update. If people want to skip the whole content of the game and buy themselves r9rrr and whatnot only to sit around and complain how boring the game is, I say let them so the rest of us that want to enjoy the game can for free.

    Also I don't think FCing from 80-100 will make you any worse than someone who quested from 80-100. In fact you may end up better. I used FC a lot on my BM and Sin to get them from 80 to 100 and it taught me a lot about how to use them in a squad dynamic vs doing quests and autoattacking a bunch of mobs.

    And if you're so worried about people not knowing their class make people take a quiz about the class before squealing with them that you would have had to read a guide about the class in the forums to pass. Or just stop complaining and don't squad with people you don't think are up to your standards
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  • noodlepunch
    noodlepunch Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    New players, as rare as they are, are so far behind in levels, rebirths, cards, gear, nuema, morai skills, primal skills that it's quite overwhelming to think of all the work to catch up to their friends so they can do those higher level/tougher instances with them. **Even my faction mates want to rush to 100 to do things with us that they can't get into at their level.

    PWI pushes end-game. It benefits them when players rush to end game levels. You don't agree?

    As for older players, I'm bored of the same quests, over and over, when making a new toon. I might not want to spend that much time on a buff mule. Who cares really? I can choose the way I want to play. You can choose the way you want to play.

    Put FC back to it's state before this update.
  • jwillson123
    jwillson123 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    It should be like it was before and it is going to go back.
    Why?
    Because as I said pwi knows they make the "BIG Money" with end gear pvp.

    Its too late for this to be honest I am burn and many players are too

    doing pv is good for people who have multiple alts they the ones that benefit.
    The ones that do not are the ones that are really affected.
    Do you want PWI to fix the economy before is to late?
    please support Perfect World International Forum > Suggestion Box
    > Limit Auto Cultivation to 1 hour just like Hyper stones
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    We may as well have everyone start off at 100 w/ Vacuity Cultivatoin and all skills up to that point learned. Since thats where everyone is/where the game "begins" and everyone can "figure out the game" from just a few hours of play~

    Erase all the other "unimportant and outdated" content while we're at it. b:laugh

    That will just penalize the people who do want to do that content or level slower. Like I said, play and let play. The options are there, and should be there for different play styles.
  • XeroFlareXL - Harshlands
    XeroFlareXL - Harshlands Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    hell with it do whatever keeps the cashshoppers happy ,after all its a pay to win game anymore about 5% of pwi population even does quests from 1 -75 so keep the cashshoppers happy I don't play pwi much anymore I get to play ESO where cashshoppers wouldn't get anywhere hahaha
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    The way I see it FC should be returned to the way it was before this past update. If people want to skip the whole content of the game and buy themselves r9rrr and whatnot only to sit around and complain how boring the game is, I say let them so the rest of us that want to enjoy the game can for free.

    Also I don't think FCing from 80-100 will make you any worse than someone who quested from 80-100. In fact you may end up better. I used FC a lot on my BM and Sin to get them from 80 to 100 and it taught me a lot about how to use them in a squad dynamic vs doing quests and autoattacking a bunch of mobs.

    And if you're so worried about people not knowing their class make people take a quiz about the class before squealing with them that you would have had to read a guide about the class in the forums to pass. Or just stop complaining and don't squad with people you don't think are up to your standards

    Most BMs in FCC runs are terrible as hell. They don't realize stuns generate agro (even if a stun attempt fails to hit, it still generates agro), they don't weapon swap to sword for MSS if things go wrong, they want to hold RotP when they lure just in case they need it, which leads to heal agro when they head to the cleric's BB, they don't choose proper paths if a cleric sets BB in different area, etc.

    The fact is, most BMs who congratulate themselves on doing well on there, are utter ****. One of the reasons I rolled a BM in 2008 was because of how god awful BMs were and they kept insisting being a non-BM rendered my advice useless. And the sad thing is, most BMs nowadays are even worse than they are.

    FCC does not teach a BM how to play. If a squad wipes from mobs, the BM failed. Period. As a BM I've saved full mobs alive during a tank and cleric wipe during FCCs and Rebirth Gammas, and just the few FCCs I've run that have BMs have shown they don't know ****. When you've been in an actually competent dual BM run where there is 18 secs of HF every 30 seconds, with either half damage from mobs or the mobs at half resists, then you get a closer idea of what BMs should be doing. But then, they might need to invest in their skill trees, get a clue, and not be so horrible as they are today.
  • bloodedone87
    bloodedone87 Posts: 1,883 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I voted the second option.If someone doesnt learn to play his char untill lvl75 clearly he will not learn it after lvl75.
    giphy.gif



  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    At that point of the game, with the RB and the few new players that join it should be keep as it was, being a new player and learning I need to level 3 times to level 100 I would be discourage, but learning that hyper cannot be use in FC? I would not even bother to play the game and go check for an other one.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    At that point of the game, with the RB and the few new players that join it should be keep as it was, being a new player and learning I need to level 3 times to level 100 I would be discourage, but learning that hyper cannot be use in FC? I would not even bother to play the game and go check for an other one.

    Why would you quit the game because there is high level content and low level content? You'd never find a game that way. Really, new players don't have our concerns. They aren't going to know or care about high level content right away. What they care about, and what they've repeatedly express in "'I'm coming back after quitting, or I'm quitting," threads is that they have no friends and nobody to play with. You wouldn't even know to look for hyper FC if you were a new player, it wouldn't be a concept.

    You just go to your fac mate and say "what's best way to level?"

    And they'll say "BH, PV, ETC."

    And then "Can someone help me do BH?"

    or

    What's best way to level?"

    "FC"

    "Can someone help me do FC?"

    You're projecting high level concerns (you probably wouldn't even know unless someone ranted at you that there is such a thing as RA) onto new players.

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  • Euthymius - Heavens Tear
    Euthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    That will just penalize the people who do want to do that content or level slower.

    >Penalize the minority

    k, though that wasn't meant to be srs m8.

    Still, aside from monetary gain affiliated with certain areas/instances, what use is the "other options" such as PQs 1 and 2? The options might exist, but they aren't used or more often than not even considered because they simply pale compared to one. That one which can be done with little hassle or even paid for to have done for you....and opened 24/7. Its no different from Nirvana and NW....the former being near completely pointless to bother with in its current form because another place gives the same reward in greater amounts and less effort.

    People can play the game however they want, sure....but why should they play it any other way when one method for achieving a goal (quick leveling) is clearly the most effective and most often used? Why bother with anything else? At the very least some form of restriction's needed,but with how long things have been "broken", most would rather it not be taken away....
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  • Demodude - Dreamweaver
    Demodude - Dreamweaver Posts: 397 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Most BMs in FCC runs are terrible as hell. They don't realize stuns generate agro (even if a stun attempt fails to hit, it still generates agro), they don't weapon swap to sword for MSS if things go wrong, they want to hold RotP when they lure just in case they need it, which leads to heal agro when they head to the cleric's BB, they don't choose proper paths if a cleric sets BB in different area, etc.

    The fact is, most BMs who congratulate themselves on doing well on there, are utter ****. One of the reasons I rolled a BM in 2008 was because of how god awful BMs were and they kept insisting being a non-BM rendered my advice useless. And the sad thing is, most BMs nowadays are even worse than they are.

    FCC does not teach a BM how to play. If a squad wipes from mobs, the BM failed. Period. As a BM I've saved full mobs alive during a tank and cleric wipe during FCCs and Rebirth Gammas, and just the few FCCs I've run that have BMs have shown they don't know ****. When you've been in an actually competent dual BM run where there is 18 secs of HF every 30 seconds, with either half damage from mobs or the mobs at half resists, then you get a closer idea of what BMs should be doing. But then, they might need to invest in their skill trees, get a clue, and not be so horrible as they are today.
    I agree with you 100% and it used to annoy the heck outta me when I'd go on a run on my sin and the bm didn't know that they were doing. But I still think overall they will turn out better than someone who autoattacked through quests to level. At least in a squad they have a chance to learn or get lucky and squad with someone who can below them (assuming they are willing to be helped)
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  • Sylvae - Sanctuary
    Sylvae - Sanctuary Posts: 1,018 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I agree with you 100% and it used to annoy the heck outta me when I'd go on a run on my sin and the bm didn't know that they were doing. But I still think overall they will turn out better than someone who autoattacked through quests to level. At least in a squad they have a chance to learn or get lucky and squad with someone who can below them (assuming they are willing to be helped)

    Not if they did the original quest in 5X range, where they started mixing those freaking running mobs with the melee mobs. If a BM didn't come out of there with knowledge of how to use their leaps with exact ranges to hit so the mob didn't run, or their stuns to stop them with weapon swaps, then the player was stupid. Not the character, the player.

    Because the ranged magic mobs would run directly away, and sometimes into the phys mobs. Which means more damage when you mag marrow to fight the mag mob, and get phys attacks hitting you as well. So you'd learn how to get behind them to chase them away from mobs, whether with leaps or cloudsprint; or when to stun based off how long it'd take to kill them vs. the time it takes for the stun to wear off and the mob to start running again.

    If someone wasn't capable of learning their leaps, stuns, affects of positioning based on area mob composition, whether your target was melee or ranged, coupled with proper weapon swapping depending on culti and spark level.

    At least that's how I remember 5X on my BM in just the scrunchkin quests, not sure how it was for other people. Course I also don't remember periodically tasting my monitor, so that might also be a point of difference. And that isn't getting into animation length vs channel length vs cast time, coupled with weapon swapping in between to maximize when you can skill spam during a stun lock duration vs swapping to claws for chi gain.
  • DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    It's too late and too unfair to put restrictions on it now.

    It would be nice to have the option to have the farming instance or xp instance though...
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  • Colum - Raging Tide
    Colum - Raging Tide Posts: 1,696 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Restrict it so only 75+ can enter.

    I'm a faction leader and have got many level 7-9x players who have no idea what their skills do and tell me their previous factions told that FC is the best thing to do and leveled them to that point while leaving them screwed over with their gears and how the gameplay works. Many of these players tell me they'd like to learn the game but they've told to level up fast and do not receive help for anything else except FCC.
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  • bowgataboppa
    bowgataboppa Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Restrict it so only 75+ can enter.

    I'm a faction leader and have got many level 7-9x players who have no idea what their skills do and tell me their previous factions told that FC is the best thing to do and leveled them to that point while leaving them screwed over with their gears and how the gameplay works. Many of these players tell me they'd like to learn the game but they've told to level up fast and do not receive help for anything else except FCC.


    This. But just the second part. I think FC should be open to hypers like before. I think if you restricted this discussion to players who only did FC once or twice, there would be very few voices to be heard.


    The 'community' frowns on low level activity period. Three years ago about half of the factions had no level requirement and the other half put it at around 80. Now all the major factions require at least level 90 and if your a sin a rebirthed level 90. Join any of the major factions and what level are 95% of the players online? -- 100+ and with multiple rebirths is what. If a level 90 asks for others to join them in a BH79, what they get is not a team of like level players to do the instance as it was designed, but one rebirthed toon who can solo the entire thing. Being dragged around like a useless child by an adult is not my definition of fun.

    Factions/the community don't want to even talk to you until you are past the first 100 levels because most of them only want to do 100+ content.

    The 'community' over the years has changed. In the early years there we a plethora of guides created by players. Now many of those are out-of-date and miss-leading, and most new guides are for level 100+ content and we have a plethora of youtube videos of OP 100+ rebirthed players soloing various instances. The gulf between established end game toons which make up the great majority of the player base, and new players is 300 levels now.

    The original poster also threw out that advertising and sprucing up the starter levels are needed in order to bring in more new players, like that is something that costs nothing and can be done overnight by a few interns. Those kinds of things are major cash outlays.

    That person then switches to their negative mode that PWI is greedy, and it's all a conspiracy to milk as many cash shop end game whales as they can before they run out of players.

    These two things are contradictory and the second if true means the first will never happen. PWI recently tried to revamp the starting area, and junked it, most likely because it failed to improve or increase new player acquisition or retention, most likely it did the opposite and I doubt PWI will try that again. I thought it played like a brain dead kiddy MMO. 'Here, your OP, all mobs are no threat to you, there is no need to join others in a squad, knock your selves out.'

    So I do not see the point of the poll, especially now that the 'majority' polled have voted to put FC back to the way it was with hypers.
  • Yajirushi - Raging Tide
    Yajirushi - Raging Tide Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    There needs to be some kind of restriction on FCC. The amount of power leveled people in game is annoying and overwhelming. I'm tired of being in squads with clerics that don't know what healing aggro is and with seekers that think vortex is their only skill.

    It would be lovely to have the mats and armor back in FCC as I was around after it was removed and would love to try it. But as long as there is a restriction in level or use of hypers, I don't care. I just want the game to go back to people knowing what their class is supposed to do!
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Why would you quit the game because there is high level content and low level content? You'd never find a game that way. Really, new players don't have our concerns. They aren't going to know or care about high level content right away. What they care about, and what they've repeatedly express in "'I'm coming back after quitting, or I'm quitting," threads is that they have no friends and nobody to play with. You wouldn't even know to look for hyper FC if you were a new player, it wouldn't be a concept.

    You just go to your fac mate and say "what's best way to level?"

    And they'll say "BH, PV, ETC."

    And then "Can someone help me do BH?"

    or

    What's best way to level?"

    "FC"

    "Can someone help me do FC?"

    You're projecting high level concerns (you probably wouldn't even know unless someone ranted at you that there is such a thing as RA) onto new players.

    I remember when I was new to the game and speaking with people around asking stuff like what was the max level and though that level 100 was impossible to reach cause it did seems so high.

    Back in time it was taking weeks and months to level up, I remember people that needed days/weeks to level from 30-40 to 50 cause there was a point at those level where you was running out of quest and needed to grind mobs to gain exp to level up to get quests.

    These day people can do level 1-60 easy in a week, so no a new player will maybe not have concern for the leveling stuff the first week, but pretty sure when they will see the level slow down at 70-80 they will get curious and when they will learn that they will need to do that again 2 more time after the first time, that combined with farming gears, they might just give up right away.

    It's sure a new player joining for the PVE side of the game will maybe still enjoy it for a while, cause there's no big goals or challenge PVE wise, but if someone join for the PVP or TW side of the game people will laugh and tell that player right away to quit unless he plan to c$ a lot or spend years farming.

    Restricting the hyper in FC won't avoid the power level, cause a low level char will still get a bunch of exp in FC even without hyper (speaking for toons level 1-50), after that people will use PV and FC will become like Nirvana, a dead instance.

    I know FC or even PV wasn't meant to be solo instances, but when I didn't had the gears to solo PV, I was happy to be able to solo FC. Cause truth is yes there's maybe a few people doing PV in squad, but usually people will solo it or find someone to duo it, I know I tried for a long time to find people to do PV and people are kinda selfish and if they can solo/duo it they won't had a third or fourth person that will just take down their exp and yes I have friends and yes I was in a good faction.

    Removing the hyper from FC will just kill once again an instance.

    Restricting the instance to level 75? That I would have been in favor 1-2 years ago, as some other people said it's too late now and I highly doubt anyway that the devs do it.

    I assume the only real choice or the only possible one would be to put back hyper in FC or not, so it's pretty much asking do you want to kill the FC instance or not? Not that there's a lot to learn in FC anyway, but I think it should be keep alive to give more options.
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  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Actually I soloed my own FB19 on a barb, HA veno, cleric, sin, seeker, and mystic in the dreamchaser gear. And I didn't even know all the ins and outs of HA venos! The dreamchaser gear + free charms and pots makes it stupid easy to do that now. Just wanted to throw that out there.

    Also the definition of play is "to exercise or employ oneself in diversion, amusement, or recreation," according to the dictionary. If you buy FC heads you aren't playing the game. You are paying to allow others to play it for you. The person soloing the room is for you is playing the game. People who bot or purchase heads aren't playing the game. You are not actively engaged in doing anything. You aren't employing yourself to level, you're having someone else do it. And the purpose of killing the heads is not amusement or recreation. It's paying someone else to do what you consider "work," so that you can move past the part you do not enjoy and play the game. By it's very definition people a bot and someone who is buying heads are not playing the game.

    And one is not a hypocrite to agree that different things are good for different people while simultaneously acknowledging that what might be fine for a few individuals is bad for the community. That's just acknowledging basic social science.

    In the dreamchaser gear with charms/pots, yes i aggree it's very possible.

    But will new players (who know nothing about the game) have that?

    The act of buying heads also requires you to kill them, which is the 'work', albeit very little work. But work is work. DOn't you pay people to do things for you that you cannot do yourself? Or for the sake of convience?

    I said it's hypocritical because the said individuals he is talking about make up most of the community. It isn't just a few individuals, he is talking about forcing a majority of other people to change the way they play in order to get that feeling on nostalgia back from 08'.

    This game is very different from back then. Hell getting to 100 is hard enough even with FC, and requires a lot of time, then comes gearing up. Why make the least important part imo (acquiring levels), take the longest? Wouldn't that be bad as well, to put newer/returning players even further behind? The problem isn't FC per se, the problem is a combination of things. The grindish leveling of PWI, combined with rediculous market prices, and typical players. If he wants to argue about 'FC babies', that argument defeats itself. I know players that have played the assassin class 2-3x as long as I have and yet I not only outgear them while staying free to play, I out skill them as well.

    I do agree that FC can be bad, but only when combined with certain players.

    One thing another MMO that i play recently did was enable endgame players to queue with low level players for instances. Are given a set of gear that is used for the level range of the instance (while keeping skills etc), and their normal gear becomes usable once they leave the instance. They also give those players extra rewards for running these instances again. Summons/battle pets higher than the instance level are disabled. Just an idea, but i thought it was neat.
    There needs to be some kind of restriction on FCC. The amount of power leveled people in game is annoying and overwhelming. I'm tired of being in squads with clerics that don't know what healing aggro is and with seekers that think vortex is their only skill.

    It would be lovely to have the mats and armor back in FCC as I was around after it was removed and would love to try it. But as long as there is a restriction in level or use of hypers, I don't care. I just want the game to go back to people knowing what their class is supposed to do!

    Don't blame FC for that 'facepalm'. I know 100+ clerics (not fced) that still think bramble draws more aggro that healing, while most of the FCed/TW clerics i know enjoy bramble.

    The problem isn't FC it's the player base. 9/10 people only want a seeker in squad for vortex, you can see evidence of this everyday. So if a seeker gets a bad habit of using vortex, it has something to do with people wanting them for this 1 skill alone. Not saying it's excusable, but 1 possible explanation.

    As for heal aggro, I'm sure most clerics know what it is, it's a common thing in MMO's. The problem is deciding to heal or not, if you heal someone you might die, if you don't heal they might die. Either way you are going to be judged, so most continue healing without thinking of the best way to go about it, in a way to not draw aggro. Fc has nothing to do with that, that's all on the player.
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    There needs to be some kind of restriction on FCC. The amount of power leveled people in game is annoying and overwhelming. I'm tired of being in squads with clerics that don't know what healing aggro is and with seekers that think vortex is their only skill.

    It would be lovely to have the mats and armor back in FCC as I was around after it was removed and would love to try it. But as long as there is a restriction in level or use of hypers, I don't care. I just want the game to go back to people knowing what their class is supposed to do!

    That have nothing to do with FC, I know some people that are terrible at their class while they didn't power level with FC as I know some really skilled people that did power level in FC.

    Been skilled come with the experience sure, but people need to have a brain and read their skills and listen when people give them advices and also they need to roll the good class for them, majority of the bad clerics aren't bad cause they did power level, they suck cause they try to metal mage beside doing what a cleric should be doing which is first keep the squad alive, if people want to DD then they shouldn't roll a cleric, that's the first mistake which have nothing to do with power level.

    As some people become bad at their class because some people give them bad advices, I see clerics that say they get ask to BB in BH59 and if they don't they get kick out of the squad, it's like wtf? BB isn't needed and the cleric can do his job fine without it, but OTHER people decide that it's what that should be done, so the cleric slowly fall in that BB **** and later on in the places where they can't BB they dunno what to do and that have nothing to do with power level, it's just bad advices from other people.

    But yea some people could play the same class for 5 years and still suck at it while some people are able to learn how to play their class in a month.

    I did power level on my mystic and yet PVE wise I'm way better than a lot of mystics that didn't power level.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    In the dreamchaser gear with charms/pots, yes i aggree it's very possible.

    But will new players (who know nothing about the game) have that?

    Yes, yes they will. The cave trial type quests give away the chest pieces for free for much of the lowbie stuff. The gear, when run with an at level squad, also drops very easily. The charms have a quest that direct them to the NPC. And the pots are reward from the giant blinking chest at the top of the screen. Some of the lowest level quests just hands out the lowest tier of dreamchaser gear. A lot of older people assume a lot of things about low game that just aren't true anymore, based on their own experiences.
    The act of buying heads also requires you to kill them, which is the 'work', albeit very little work. But work is work. DOn't you pay people to do things for you that you cannot do yourself? Or for the sake of convience?

    Right but it's being done for convenience, not for recreation. Playing the game requires active engagement/work and doing it for the purpose of fun/recreation. The little work that is being done is being done for convenience so that you can get to "the real game," and actually start playing your character. Those people are by very definition not playing the game. They are using an in-game feature, but they aren't playing it.
    I said it's hypocritical because the said individuals he is talking about make up most of the community. It isn't just a few individuals, he is talking about forcing a majority of other people to change the way they play in order to get that feeling on nostalgia back from 08'.

    That's not what hypocritical mean. He's saying what he considers the right way to solve that problem and and his actions show are consistent with what he stated he wants. Since he's been crusading for this for a pretty long time. You might not agree with his values, but he isn't hypocritical to say them.

    BTW in my opinion, just because the new players are a minority of players doesn't mean it's okay for the majority of players to ruin their fun. All customers/players should have equal ability to have fun, no matter their play-style. But new players and low levels are being deprived of fun experiences through squad play because of FC. They level almost totally alone and are almost always are handheld through an instance not actually getting to play it. FC has the same detrimental effect on new players and lowbies that nation wars has on nirvana farmers. It really doesn't matter if someone is genuinely interested in farming nirvana if the community is rewarded for totally ignoring it. Unless they luck out, they aren't going to be able to run it with any kind of consistency because it requires more than just them.
    This game is very different from back then. Hell getting to 100 is hard enough even with FC, and requires a lot of time, then comes gearing up. Why make the least important part imo (acquiring levels), take the longest? Wouldn't that be bad as well, to put newer/returning players even further behind? The problem isn't FC per se, the problem is a combination of things. The grindish leveling of PWI, combined with rediculous market prices, and typical players. If he wants to argue about 'FC babies', that argument defeats itself. I know players that have played the assassin class 2-3x as long as I have and yet I not only outgear them while staying free to play, I out skill them as well.

    Just because you know exceptions to the rule doesn't disprove it. It doesn't negate the fact that human beings become more proficient at activities through experience and practice. By their very nature, FC cannot produce the same amount of skilled players as the other methods. Because humans gain skill through experience in general, even if some are just naturally going to be better than everyone else with little practice.

    Also I'm well aware this game is very different than what it used to be. It's much faster to level up. We're talking a couple of days difference here. A couple of days so new players actually have someone to play with. It doesn't put the newcomer behind if the game starts when they do. If there is engaging and fun content they can do with at level players even at low levels. The only reason they are "behind," is that they can't really play this game the way an MMO should be played, massively multiplayer, until 100. And a large part of that is FC. It takes away most of the veterans in a veteran filled game. It's small wonder so many are quitting and citing "nobody to play with," as their reason when they can be bothered to make a post on the forums.

    I do agree that FC can be bad, but only when combined with certain players.

    We have no ability to opt out of the detriment gameplay experience FC is causing for low game, or opt out of squad with people who use it to rush to 100 just because they want to play with others. But then suck because they haven't actually played the game yet. So it doesn't really matter. If you wanted to revive nirvana you'd have to come up for some alternate solution for it or remove raps/cannies as a reward from nation wars. Just saying that it's still there isn't enough because the entire server culture has changed and this means a person's ability to do it is significantly and detrimentally altered. Even it is still there, it is practically dead because of nation wars.
    One thing another MMO that i play recently did was enable endgame players to queue with low level players for instances. Are given a set of gear that is used for the level range of the instance (while keeping skills etc), and their normal gear becomes usable once they leave the instance. They also give those players extra rewards for running these instances again. Summons/battle pets higher than the instance level are disabled. Just an idea, but i thought it was neat.

    Having some kind of legacy thing that hampered peoples' ability to steamroll the things for lowbies and made them actually have to work together with them would also work. In fact, it would be the superior solution imo. But it's not anywhere as realistic as simply asking for this change to remain.

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  • Veneir - Dreamweaver
    Veneir - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,541 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    --wait
    What's the main reason that we're sticking with "no FC >85" as apposed to "FC hypers can only be enabled when a character has rebirthed at least once"?

    ...also PWI would do the worst to people who don't use their r9 armour type when it comes to 'giving substituting gear' because then they'd be giving people who take pride in their LA or HA or whatever armour AA instead. 3: Or HA instead of LA for those people. Or any other combination.
    It happens literally every time there's a quest given armour type that your class can only take one ype of armour now and it bothers the hell out of me because all I want is to be able to select a useable HA at level 1 after rebirthing so I don't have to suck until I get my legit armour back like 90 levels later in a few months.
    ...also the pets should just be deleveled and not unable to summon in that kind of situation. Rebirth non-pet venos is already bad enough, and I don't care how strong the pet's leveling curve is, the character already has level 100 skills still so kasngdsg..
    "Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
    I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
    First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited August 2014
    --wait
    What's the main reason that we're sticking with "no FC >85" as apposed to "FC hypers can only be enabled when a character has rebirthed at least once"?

    ...also PWI would do the worst to people who don't use their r9 armour type when it comes to 'giving substituting gear' because then they'd be giving people who take pride in their LA or HA or whatever armour AA instead. 3: Or HA instead of LA for those people. Or any other combination.
    It happens literally every time there's a quest given armour type that your class can only take one ype of armour now and it bothers the hell out of me because all I want is to be able to select a useable HA at level 1 after rebirthing so I don't have to suck until I get my legit armour back like 90 levels later in a few months.
    ...also the pets should just be deleveled and not unable to summon in that kind of situation. Rebirth non-pet venos is already bad enough, and I don't care how strong the pet's leveling curve is, the character already has level 100 skills still so kasngdsg..

    I suppose initial limit being 75 and then that counting forever would be fine. I don't have a problem with RA people using it since they'd just blow through any lowbie instance anyway in their gear and it's the same as if a high leveled soloed it for you.

    To use an analogy from the last time this was debated. I don't have a problem with speeding, I just want people to slow down in the school zones.

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  • warlockxkos187
    warlockxkos187 Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    i voted to return to normal cuz what it do? it flip flops to all arcanes benefit via pv. am i right? so basically this appeases half the community while the other half cry's aint tryin to rain you your parade but this pole should have been taken before any changes were made for instance are you going to kick a dog and then warn the dog that your going to kick him---> get real
  • Krelian - Dreamweaver
    Krelian - Dreamweaver Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I just got back after a 2 year break to find out that we can now rebirth .. not once but several times. ive been playing a wizzy since 2009 whn the game was released. I made it past first rebirth and into second whn u take down hypers in FC. Look im a return player and ur making me want to leave again.. please fix this so i can get back to 100 and do the stuff im missing out on like primal 100 dailys ect.. im already behind as it is.. now im really gonna fall back ... I vote return it to normal no one had a problem with the way it was except cry babys who care that others dont know how to play thier toons cuase they got nothing else better to worry about apparantly. Just play ur own toons and mind ur own bussiness plox b:bye
  • SylenThunder - Twilight Temple
    edited August 2014
    I just got back after a 2 year break to find out that we can now rebirth .. not once but several times. ive been playing a wizzy since 2009 whn the game was released. I made it past first rebirth and into second whn u take down hypers in FC. Look im a return player and ur making me want to leave again.. please fix this so i can get back to 100 and do the stuff im missing out on like primal 100 dailys ect.. im already behind as it is.. now im really gonna fall back ... I vote return it to normal no one had a problem with the way it was except cry babys who care that others dont know how to play thier toons cuase they got nothing else better to worry about apparantly. Just play ur own toons and mind ur own bussiness plox b:bye

    Just to be clear... "Normal" means no hypers in FCC. Normal FCC is a farming instance. Our hyper exp mode is a "special" version that only existed here.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Veneir - Dreamweaver
    Veneir - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,541 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I just got back after a 2 year break to find out that we can now rebirth .. not once but several times. ive been playing a wizzy since 2009 whn the game was released. I made it past first rebirth and into second whn u take down hypers in FC. Look im a return player and ur making me want to leave again.. please fix this so i can get back to 100 and do the stuff im missing out on like primal 100 dailys ect.. im already behind as it is.. now im really gonna fall back ... I vote return it to normal no one had a problem with the way it was except cry babys who care that others dont know how to play thier toons cuase they got nothing else better to worry about apparantly. Just play ur own toons and mind ur own bussiness plox b:bye

    This sort of thing is why I think it makes sense for FC hypering to just be enabled for rebirth characters and not at all for first playthrough. First leveling up to 100 is practically all early game now, afterall.
    "Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
    I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
    First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Keisari - Raging Tide
    Keisari - Raging Tide Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Just to be clear... "Normal" means no hypers in FCC. Normal FCC is a farming instance. Our hyper exp mode is a "special" version that only existed here.

    And just what you'd see as the point of farming FC-gears that are badly outdated by now? Not to mention that they're unupgradeable to level 100-versions. If they just turned FC into a mere mat farming instance, FC would 95% die.

    If they had done it 2,5 years ago, it would have been effective, but not anymore. Only way to make FC-farming for mats worth it now would be making another instance/editing nirvy for farming mats for some lvl 100 gears for upgrading FC-golds to in a fashion similar to Lunar and FWS these days.



    This sort of thing is why I think it makes sense for FC hypering to just be enabled for rebirth characters and not at all for first playthrough. First leveling up to 100 is practically all early game now, afterall.

    That would kill the only reason Kitty's really playing this game for. Having recreated a little army of mains Kitty can honestly say that forcing newbies to level without hypers would just scare them away. The power creep ish so massive, that if leveling as non-rb took any longer, most would probably just give up around 88 unless they like grinding mobs a lot. There's not too many quests left that time and forcing at least 500 PV/FC runs to reach 100(though even that's probably underestimate, considering that 97-100 alone takes about 30 FCs hypered.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Kittysama - Raging Tide in APS-barb disguise, when avatars were bugged. Now posting again as Kittysama.
    Deleted old mains on Feb. 2014, back with every viable build covered, majority of them at or above non-rb 100.b:cute
    The Greatest APS-Panda on RT! 'Cause there's too much food in tables of Imperial palace.b:surrender
    Kitty's current average lvl ~94 b:shocked
  • Veneir - Dreamweaver
    Veneir - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,541 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    And just what you'd see as the point of farming FC-gears that are badly outdated by now? Not to mention that they're unupgradeable to level 100-versions. If they just turned FC into a mere mat farming instance, FC would 95% die.

    If they had done it 2,5 years ago, it would have been effective, but not anymore. Only way to make FC-farming for mats worth it now would be making another instance/editing nirvy for farming mats for some lvl 100 gears for upgrading FC-golds to in a fashion similar to Lunar and FWS these days.




    That would kill the only reason Kitty's really playing this game for. Having recreated a little army of mains Kitty can honestly say that forcing newbies to level without hypers would just scare them away. The power creep ish so massive, that if leveling as non-rb took any longer, most would probably just give up around 88 unless they like grinding mobs a lot. There's not too many quests left that time and forcing at least 500 PV/FC runs to reach 100(though even that's probably underestimate, considering that 97-100 alone takes about 30 FCs hypered.

    I didn't say that new characters couldn't use hypers whatsoever until rebirth, just not in Frostcover City where the mentality is 'get here when level one and wait to be able to 'play the game' until we're done'.. Zhenning atop butterfly ponds and such with hypers, among many other ways to get exp, still exists, and other things might start to happen. Making different activities exist as happening in the game for not just 100+ is the whole point here.

    Also I see no reason why making a bunch of alts should be a mindless process.... people making a bunch of alts to circumvent attempted solutions (and being able to do it in days) is in fact, a problem.
    At least with the new starting zone that got removed for some reason, people were able to preview their class to see if they wanted it, so the argument of 'I can't see what I can do until I'm high leveled' was null.....
    "Clearly, the only logical option is Squid." -Decus <コ:彡 <コ:彡
    I'm helplessly needless, and needless to say I owe you | Well I'd pull, teeter away, at the earth with my teeth, to touch your face alive | You lie, helplessly still | As your face falls apart | Well I can make your face brand new | Come take my hand and I'll take your hand | And I will pull you out | Into the sun.
    First fell into an army of noob mobs on 19/3/2009~ Upside-down fox and old-colour squid <┻┻~ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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