Scamming G16 service - bannable?

Crygol - Sanctuary
Crygol - Sanctuary Posts: 57 Arc User
edited August 2014 in General Discussion
Is it bannable offense to steal items through selling G16 services? Since you make a promise that for X amount of coin you will craft their G15 item into G16 it should be bannable imo. In Sanctuary we have a guy who has been doing this for weeks (over a month maybe? idk). I wonder if he hasn't been reported yet or really PWI don't care about such things?
Post edited by Crygol - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    Technically speaking, it's on us just like refine services and odds are (especially with how support's been lately) that you won't really get anything recovered from it if it were to happen to you.

    Personally? I think it's the sort of thing that should be considered a bannable offense and have action taken against it consistently.
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  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    It is definitely bannable and I know some people have been banned in the past. Because I've seen people cry about the "unjust" ban their "friend" had when I know for a fact that their friend has done exactly this. That said support has been very spotty lately. Even if they do ban the person you might not get your things back. b:surrender

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  • XX_Raider_Xx - Sanctuary
    XX_Raider_Xx - Sanctuary Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    this is just very sad - especially in a "perfect world" where nobody should want for anything, nor should they need to steal - hate thieves and liars and people that get caught doing things that **** others off should banned and by that I mean ban their ISP codes and whatever else to prevent these horrible people from coming back.
  • Verenor - Morai
    Verenor - Morai Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I have yet to see PWI support ban anyone for G16 craft service-scams. We have a handful of those people on Morai and all support says is "your own fault", and not a single step taken against the scammer, the actual problem.
  • Evryn - Morai
    Evryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Oh, if only I were a GM there...

    Yea, it should be bannable. But since it isn't being acted on, it's best to only get crafting services from people you trust, not from random worldchat offers.
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

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  • SHIMBERLY - Heavens Tear
    SHIMBERLY - Heavens Tear Posts: 703 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No because the people are teaching others a valuable lesson to go get your own ****.So no banning needed.
  • WangZi - Dreamweaver
    WangZi - Dreamweaver Posts: 279 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No because the people are teaching others a valuable lesson to go get your own ****.So no banning needed.

    ^ this
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  • Verenor - Morai
    Verenor - Morai Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No because the people are teaching others a valuable lesson to go get your own ****.So no banning needed.

    So flawed. Teaching goes better by example rather than by exploitation. PWI is teaching the scammers it's easier to steal than farm for their own, the exact opposite of what you are saying yet you approve of them.
  • Evryn - Morai
    Evryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    No because the people are teaching others a valuable lesson to go get your own ****.So no banning needed.

    I hope your home will get broken into. And that the burglar leaves a note for you: "I'm teaching you a valuable lesson to make sure you protect your property. Have a nice day."

    Seriously.
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

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  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I hope your home will get broken into. And that the burglar leaves a note for you: "I'm teaching you a valuable lesson to make sure you protect your property. Have a nice day."

    Seriously.
    This isn't the same.
    You wouldnt give your old CRT TV and $20,000 to a complete stranger on the street to get rid of your old TV and give you a 90" 4K TV on trust alone.

    These scammers arent hacking accounts and stealing stuff (the equivalent of a house break-in)......people are willingly giving their stuff and money to complete strangers. You would never do this in real life for fear of having your stuff stolen. Why do people think its different in a game? Because people on the internet are more trustworthy than strangers in real life?
    Get real......you hand over millions of coin worth of stuff to a complete stranger, how exactly is it PWE's problem to fix the stupidity of handing this stuff over? There's an easy fix.....don't hand your stuff over to complete strangers. Either farm it yourself or buy already pre-made gear.
  • Verenor - Morai
    Verenor - Morai Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This isn't the same.
    you hand over millions of coin worth of stuff to a complete stranger, how exactly is it PWE's problem to fix the stupidity of handing this stuff over? There's an easy fix.....don't hand your stuff over to complete strangers. Either farm it yourself or buy already pre-made gear.

    It's PWE's problem for the exact same reason burglars are arrested. Even if it isn't their responsibility to return the stolen goods, they should still punish the 'crime' of stealing. It's not so-much PWE's fault that it happens, but it still is their responsibility to make sure their players aren't allowed scammers and take actions against those who purposefully and repeatedly steal/scam/deceive fellow players. From what I understood that's the exact reason why certain countries have been IP-blocked from PWE due to excessive scams originating from there, so what's keeping PWE from taking actions against the Western scammers?

    Even if it's not out of the heart for having values to uphold, it would still keep the playerbase more trusting towards the company and prevent a % of players to quit the game over those scams as is happening right now.

    But just to add some concrete legal reasons to the subject, a quote from ToS:
    10. User Conduct

    (j) Engage in any actions that defraud or attempt to defraud, scam or cheat others out of any items that have been earned through authorized game play;
  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    It's PWE's problem for the exact same reason burglars are arrested. Even if it isn't their responsibility to return the stolen goods, they should still punish the 'crime' of stealing. It's not so-much PWE's fault that it happens, but it still is their responsibility to make sure their players aren't allowed scammers and take actions against those who purposefully and repeatedly steal/scam/deceive fellow players. From what I understood that's the exact reason why certain countries have been IP-blocked from PWE due to excessive scams originating from there, so what's keeping PWE from taking actions against the Western scammers?

    Even if it's not out of the heart for having values to uphold, it would still keep the playerbase more trusting towards the company and prevent a % of players to quit the game over those scams as is happening right now.

    But just to add some concrete legal reasons to the subject, a quote from ToS:
    Quoting the ToS still doesn't excuse the act of stupidity. If people insist on doing this, why aren't they getting collateral? If they have everything in trade-ready form, why not sell it and buy the finished product pre-made (which allows for choosing stats/sockets)?
    Crying and falling back on the ToS for PWE to cover this act of just giving stuff away on hope and a dream of everyone being honest is a poor way to conduct the business of gearing yourself up.
    I understand the ToS and the position of PWE to enforce rules of people being scammed. Scammers take advantage of people willing to give away their stuff (which they would not be able to do if people weren't so willing to hand their stuff over). Those same people take advantage of PWE and the ToS as a kind of insurance to cover and babysit their reckless usage of their stuff, which makes them just as bad.
    In this case, the people claiming to be scammed should be held just as accountable as the ones doing the scamming, since they are willingly and knowingly handing it all over to a stranger with huge risks (as opposed to a scammer exploiting some catshop flaw or or some other exploit and cheating someone unknowingly out of their stuff).
  • ShawtyStar - Raging Tide
    ShawtyStar - Raging Tide Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Never happened to me since Friend always brought his friends and I was the Escape Goat for Metal.. Loved Metal anyway as a archer
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  • Verenor - Morai
    Verenor - Morai Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    @Cotillion

    I can appreciate how you keep talking about the "victim" player of this issue, but those don't matter to me. I already agree to what you've said in the entire thread about stupidity of giving away items to random people. Quoting the ToS should've clarified that I don't however agree to letting the scammer get away scotfree, which is my biggest concern.
    PWE doesn't have to restore the lost items, that's player error. However the scammer should not be left unpunished.
  • DoodsWH - Sanctuary
    DoodsWH - Sanctuary Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    @Cotillion

    I can appreciate how you keep talking about the "victim" player of this issue, but those don't matter to me. I already agree to what you've said in the entire thread about stupidity of giving away items to random people. Quoting the ToS should've clarified that I don't however agree to letting the scammer get away scotfree, which is my biggest concern.
    PWE doesn't have to restore the lost items, that's player error. However the scammer should not be left unpunished.


    lol punished? there is end game players from top factions on every server auto culting quest spots on 4-20 alts depending on the player. they wont get banned. account sharing. wont get banned. please dont quote TOS or expect punishment when they wont even address any of the current issues going on. They dont even respond to them. the only scammers i know of getting banned is when they try to IMPERSONATE a player. otherwise good luck on that.

    its like you guys havent played pwi for years or something. what do you really expect?
  • Verenor - Morai
    Verenor - Morai Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    snipped

    It's like you haven't read the forum at all. I don't expect pwe to act upon these problems, only that they should in order to increase the game's succes and the player's gaming experience. I know they don't do squat about those things, that's the whole point this thread was made: bannable offense is bannable but isn't acted upon.
  • DoodsWH - Sanctuary
    DoodsWH - Sanctuary Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I read them lul. the problem is your going about it all wrong. just have everyone send in a ticket saying he tried to sell his account to you and bam taken care of. b:pleased
  • Selak - Dreamweaver
    Selak - Dreamweaver Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    This isn't the same.
    You wouldnt give your old CRT TV and $20,000 to a complete stranger on the street to get rid of your old TV and give you a 90" 4K TV on trust alone.

    These scammers arent hacking accounts and stealing stuff (the equivalent of a house break-in)......people are willingly giving their stuff and money to complete strangers. You would never do this in real life for fear of having your stuff stolen. Why do people think its different in a game? Because people on the internet are more trustworthy than strangers in real life?
    Get real......you hand over millions of coin worth of stuff to a complete stranger, how exactly is it PWE's problem to fix the stupidity of handing this stuff over? There's an easy fix.....don't hand your stuff over to complete strangers. Either farm it yourself or buy already pre-made gear.

    I am handing money over to strangers (Shop Assistants) almost every day and receiving the goods after payment. E.G. PAYG power card recharge, etc.

    Actually last time I went into a car yard I bought 2 cars, in exchange I gave a perfect stranger, my old car, my girlfriends car and $20000 Au. in exchange for 2 newer cars.
    Also I am always pre-ordering from shops or stuff online from perfect strangers and paying good money and then receiving the goods after payment.

    In the so called "Lucky Country" I live in, people still get ripped off, but we have a penalty system and even though it still happens here, it happens a lot less than it does in places where it is not/or loosely penalized.

    The only people who would not want this banned would be the exploiters,
    for the rest of us, we rely on the trust system to work most of the time when we exchange goods and services, then we can function at a lower stress level both in game and in our day to day life at least.

    Unfortunately because of the attitude/actions of some players you should screenshot every deal if you want any help from CS they need proof you are not the scammer first, then they may act if you ask in the correct and polite way.

    Think of the Screenshots as a Receipt and always keep a copy as I have personally learnt from this game .
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    but there are very few old bold Warriors. b:chuckle
  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I am handing money over to strangers (Shop Assistants) almost every day and receiving the goods after payment. E.G. PAYG power card recharge, etc.

    Actually last time I went into a car yard I bought 2 cars, in exchange I gave a perfect stranger, my old car, my girlfriends car and $20000 Au. in exchange for 2 newer cars.
    Also I am always pre-ordering from shops or stuff online from perfect strangers and paying good money and then receiving the goods after payment.

    In the so called "Lucky Country" I live in, people still get ripped off, but we have a penalty system and even though it still happens here, it happens a lot less than it does in places where it is not/or loosely penalized.
    I don't mean strangers in the sense of a company like a car yard, online business or otherwise reputable dealing like eBAY or whatever where there is a system for stuff like this.
    You don't do this with random people on the street with no background, no reputation or otherwise no knowledge about whatsoever. If someone came to your door and offered you the same deal for those cars that you knew nothing about, you would take him on his word, with no research, no looking into him, no looking to see if he actually is legit, you would happily turn over $20,000? Because thats what world chat is. You do this with companies and reputable people. Its not the same thing.
    I do believe PWE should take action against the 'scammers'. I'm not saying that they shouldn't.
    I am saying the people being 'scammed' should not get their stuff back. It abusive of the system to use PWE's ToS as an insurance policy to be as reckless and haphazard with their stuff as they want. In the situation of handing stuff over to strangers who are not reputable or any thought or research into it, they are just as at fault.
  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    If you were buying a used car from some random stranger selling their car on the street, and that person met up with you, took the money then jumped into the car and sped off you'd be able to take them to court. Not only would you get your money back if you cold prove your case but you'd probably get more back to cover your legal costs. And trade chat/world is SUPPOSED to be our ebay, with scammers punished for violating the TOS in which they legally agreed to not do what they did. People are not "stupid" for taking advantage of a trade system that is supposed to have similar in-game ramifications for scamming.

    GMs still DO ban for scamming. Support is wildly inconsistent. Sometimes they handle these things in a great fashion for the consumer. And sometimes they don't. Just like every other support issue in this game.

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  • Euthymius - Heavens Tear
    Euthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    >People are seriously comparing trading pixels to vaguely "reputable" players to that of trading goods or services to an actual company or business or even a house robbery
    >Players expect PWI to do something about an action that was entirely up to their discretion
    >When PWI does little to some of the worse issues running amok in-game


    Top ****ing kek.
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  • LuckingFoco - Raging Tide
    LuckingFoco - Raging Tide Posts: 712 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    >People are seriously comparing trading pixels to vaguely "reputable" players to that of trading goods or services to an actual company or business or even a house robbery
    >Players expect PWI to do something about an action that was entirely up to their discretion
    >When PWI does little to some of the worse issues running amok in-game


    Top ****ing kek.

    Yes we do expect PWI to do something. Some people buy Zen and transfer it to in game coin. They still bought it with real money. Now they need the services of another player offering the g16 service...that person takes the coin and the item only to never give it back. In any other instance, there are repercussions for stealing, be it eBay, a store, a face to face transaction if you can prove your case. PWI's ToS states this as someone mentioned in an earlier post, however PWI seems to do nothing about it. Those that scam others should be permanently banned. As in forever, no passing go, no second chances.

    If I bought Zen w real money which I do all the time and decided to transfer it to coin and someone took my coin and item(s) after offering a service, you are damn straight I would demand PWI adhere to their ToS that I and every player agrees to when we sign up to play. And yes I know the pixels are the property of PWI even if we have spent thousands on them, but I expect PWI to protect them from any negative influence such as the crafting service scammers.
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  • Selak - Dreamweaver
    Selak - Dreamweaver Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    >People are seriously comparing trading pixels to vaguely "reputable" players to that of trading goods or services to an actual company or business or even a house robbery
    >Players expect PWI to do something about an action that was entirely up to their discretion
    >When PWI does little to some of the worse issues running amok in-game


    Top ****ing kek.

    I would seriously agree, except actual companies or businesses go broke/Bankrupt and have variable Reputations at times just like individuals and I know it still a risk no matter what others say about somethings/ones reputation.
    When you agree to the TOS to be able to play the game, you agree not to scam people, so its up to your discretion whether you do or not, but remember you agreed not to do it, and if you did, you also agreed that PWI could punish you if you did scam people, and if you did not know that, then you need to learn to read better, sorry.
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  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    trade chat/world is SUPPOSED to be our ebay, with scammers punished for violating the TOS in which they legally agreed to not do what they did. People are not "stupid" for taking advantage of a trade system that is supposed to have similar in-game ramifications for scamming.
    World chat is 'supposed' to be a valid trade system as much as its 'supposed' to be a way to buy/sell gold bypassing the fee.
    PWI has valid forms of trade systems - the auction house and catshops. These are legit and safe ways to get what you want. Anything people are buying from g16 mold sellers, they can buy as a finished product in a valid and safe catshop. On top of that, they have a valid trade window system that requires each person to verify the transaction.
    Trade chat is a local chat designed to draw attention to your local shop - not for selling what was intended to be a bound mat system. Maybe the g16 forges should only accept bound mats (and still output unbound lunars), since its a loophole that's being sold here.
    People using world chat are basically yelling out their front door hoping whoever answers is an honest person with whom to deal. Its a shortcut they are taking, outside of the valid forms of safe trading available.
    Ban the scammers and let the people who took the shortcut deal with the loss for the risk they took.
  • DionDagger - Dreamweaver
    DionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    World chat is 'supposed' to be a valid trade system as much as its 'supposed' to be a way to buy/sell gold bypassing the fee.
    PWI has valid forms of trade systems - the auction house and catshops. These are legit and safe ways to get what you want. Anything people are buying from g16 mold sellers, they can buy as a finished product in a valid and safe catshop. On top of that, they have a valid trade window system that requires each person to verify the transaction.
    Trade chat is a local chat designed to draw attention to your local shop - not for selling what was intended to be a bound mat system. Maybe the g16 forges should only accept bound mats (and still output unbound lunars), since its a loophole that's being sold here.
    People using world chat are basically yelling out their front door hoping whoever answers is an honest person with whom to deal. Its a shortcut they are taking, outside of the valid forms of safe trading available.
    Ban the scammers and let the people who took the shortcut deal with the loss for the risk they took.

    Wrong. PWI still has not fixed the G16 TT vs Lunar bug that shows TT gear as lunar gears. Not to mention the over priced **** that people sell in catshops. While at the same time it's a risk of loss, you are missing the fact that it is still wrong for them to commit fraud. Which is basically what this is. Legally speaking if you wanna get into a technicality. Oral and text based contracts are just as binding in game as they are out of game.

    We deal with strangers all the time "with no reputable background". Ebay, Amazon, your local grocery store, resturants. But when i say that, I don't mean the organization as a whole, I am talking about sellers. Do you expect them to defraud you as well? But legally and functionally speaking, all of these things have SOMETHING in place to deal with scams. Whether it be the law, or policy of the business. All of which seem to handle things much better than PWI.
  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Wrong. PWI still has not fixed the G16 TT vs Lunar bug that shows TT gear as lunar gears. Not to mention the over priced **** that people sell in catshops. While at the same time it's a risk of loss, you are missing the fact that it is still wrong for them to commit fraud. Which is basically what this is.
    I am not missing that point. I have stated multiple times PWE should ban/take action, even in what you quoted that I assume you didn't read.
    I just dont think people taking risky shortcuts should get their stuff back. They are taking advantage of the ToS to go outside legitimate trade systems and expect to be protected and have PWE babysit them.

    As for ebay, grocery stores and the like....really?
    You don't buy your groceries from someone on the street. You buy from an employee of that company, with a transaction system in place...much like, oh I don't know...the trade window system in PWI? Valid ways of having transactions with strangers.
    eBay has warnings telling you to not go outside their transaction system. To not deal with people outside legitimate means. If you make a deal with a seller outside of the ebay site and you get screwed, do you think eBay will still help you? All those sites have systems in place, much like PWI has valid systems in place.
    This is what people are doing...going outside the legit means and using a shortcut and still expect to be protected.
    PWI should make a alteration in their ToS somewhere stating the same thing. If you use means outside of valid, in game systems, you are not protected.
  • DoodsWH - Sanctuary
    DoodsWH - Sanctuary Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Blunty put , if you deal in the blackmarket and get jacked, dont expect law enforcement to help.I would spell it out more but its prob agaisnt the rules to talka bout it in more detail as for whats in the black markets ;o i agree there is legitimate ways to attain things. and yes its a virtual world. if you expect it to mimic the real world you are highly deluded.
  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    World chat is 'supposed' to be a valid trade system as much as its 'supposed' to be a way to buy/sell gold bypassing the fee.
    PWI has valid forms of trade systems - the auction house and catshops. These are legit and safe ways to get what you want. Anything people are buying from g16 mold sellers, they can buy as a finished product in a valid and safe catshop. On top of that, they have a valid trade window system that requires each person to verify the transaction.
    Trade chat is a local chat designed to draw attention to your local shop - not for selling what was intended to be a bound mat system. Maybe the g16 forges should only accept bound mats (and still output unbound lunars), since its a loophole that's being sold here.
    People using world chat are basically yelling out their front door hoping whoever answers is an honest person with whom to deal. Its a shortcut they are taking, outside of the valid forms of safe trading available.
    Ban the scammers and let the people who took the shortcut deal with the loss for the risk they took.

    One of the reasons for the world and trade chat systems is to match you up to a possible seller. They even have an entire chat channel dedicated to it and make it possible for you to trade with sellers found in chat channels deliberately. Including a trade window so that you don't only have to trade with people via the cat shop and auction house. People who are buying it from world chat are no different than people who are capable of fixing their own cars and can source the parts for it cheaper, so rather than going to a dealership are content with buying it off of other people. When they agree to meet and sell they are entering into an oral contract and you can take someone who drove off with the car and the money into court, even if it wasn't through an official store. G16 gear is very similar in that you are looking to buy a good off an individual and are making an agreement with them to trade x things for y money. In the past, this has practice has been punished very similarly with goods returned if the scammer hadn't already sold them.

    There is nothing "stupid" about having the expectation that a big company will uphold it's terms of service agreement. And categorizing the victims is assigning blame to someone who, if it were a real world transaction, wouldn't be at fault because they didn't do anything wrong. Your personal view on the legitimacy of selling gear that comes out deliberately unbound has nothing to do with whether or not consumers should be able to go to the company when the agreement we all signed was violated as they are the ones that are supposed to resolve such disputes. Being able to enforce contracts is crucial in maintaining order and the inability to have people banned and the items returned has caused more than a few people to quit the game. And it's one of the reasons glitch abuse has also caused this game to become worse. It really tarnishes the legitimacy of PWI as a game.
    Blunty put , if you deal in the blackmarket and get jacked, dont expect law enforcement to help.I would spell it out more but its prob agaisnt the rules to talka bout it in more detail as for whats in the black markets ;o i agree there is legitimate ways to attain things. and yes its a virtual world. if you expect it to mimic the real world you are highly deluded.

    It isn't delusional to demand that a company that deals with real world money transactions enforces it's TOS so that you can be reasonably assured that your money is being spent wisely. It's actually in their economic interests. And unlike the real world governments, it is very easy to move on to someplace that will enforce that contract. PWE has definitely lost money by allowing people to get away with glitch abuse and scamming. It is just a game, but people will be people no matter if they are on a game or elsewhere. They might be more disinhibited because it's just as game but at the end of the day there are some real world principles that can absolutely be still applied to games to predict player behavior because we're still people behind those screens. Things like supply and demand, rational choice theory, enforcement of contracts, printing money, in-group vs out-group dynamics, things like the combination of likelihood of detection & ramifications if caught affecting whether or not some people break the rules, etc, etc are still very much in effect here. And buying stuff off of world chat isn't some black market thing. The ability to do so was intentionally designed into the game.

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  • Cotillion - Dreamweaver
    Cotillion - Dreamweaver Posts: 671 Arc User
    edited July 2014


    One of the reasons for the world and trade chat systems is to match you up to a possible seller. They even have an entire chat channel dedicated to it and make it possible for you to trade with sellers found in chat channels deliberately. Including a trade window so that you don't only have to trade with people via the cat shop and auction house. People who are buying it from world chat are no different than people who are capable of fixing their own cars and can source the parts for it cheaper, so rather than going to a dealership are content with buying it off of other people. When they agree to meet and sell they are entering into an oral contract and you can take someone who drove off with the car and the money into court, even if it wasn't through an official store. G16 gear is very similar in that you are looking to buy a good off an individual and are making an agreement with them to trade x things for y money. In the past, this has practice has been punished very similarly with goods returned if the scammer hadn't already sold them.

    There is nothing "stupid" about having the expectation that a big company will uphold it's terms of service agreement. And categorizing the victims is assigning blame to someone who, if it were a real world transaction, wouldn't be at fault because they didn't do anything wrong. Your personal view on the legitimacy of selling gear that comes out deliberately unbound has nothing to do with whether or not consumers should be able to go to the company when the agreement we all signed was violated as they are the ones that are supposed to resolve such disputes. Being able to enforce contracts is crucial in maintaining order and the inability to have people banned and the items returned has caused more than a few people to quit the game. And it's one of the reasons glitch abuse has also caused this game to become worse. It really tarnishes the legitimacy of PWI as a game.
    I highly doubt the intention of world and trade chats was to match you with someone to find a loophole in a 'bound mat system', but rather to match you with another person and then use the provided legit trade window to complete the transaction.
    It also matches buyers and sellers for gold outside the legit means, allowing them to bypass the fee. I suppose they should be protected as well when one scams the other? It opens too gray of an area when you venture outside the provided legit means of trading.
    But hey, if you or any others want to deal with strangers outside the provided legit and safe methods provided and risk getting screwed out of your gear/coin, thats your prerogative.
    In many other real world cases, as people seem to need, like eBAY, Amazaon and the like, if you were to deal outside their provided means, you would not be covered or helped.
    I, for one, will not be doing this with the exception of through friends or reputable people as its simply not worth the risk, especially when you then consider PWE support and how wildly inconsistent it is. Issues like this only help to make that worse. This is such a gray area as this topic shows, so its no wonder the support on it is inconsistent.
    Saying its 'been ruled in favor of the victim' before doesnt mean anything with this kind of inconsistency. The argument can be made just as easily the other way. Not only based on forum topics, but by the actions of PWE themselves.
    There is no right or wrong answer here until PWE makes a choice of where they stand. Which they should do, there should be something in the ToS somewhere about dealings outside of the provided safe means of the trade window, the AH or catshops.

    And I never said it was stupid to expect the company to enforce their own rules. I never said the scammers should get away free. I did say it was stupid to be so haphazard with coin when safe means are provided. I don't think that quote from the ToS was originally intended to act as a babysitter clause for people who want to venture outside the provided means.
    But like I said, there is no right or wrong answer here, based on PWE's own actions, until they make it clear one way or the other. Which I doubt they will ever do - leaving the situation gray and risky. You can choose to hand over coins and mats without collateral and hope you get it back, and if you don't, hope the wildly inconsistent support sides with you since it could go either way. Seems like a lot of needless risk to me when there's legit options available.
  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited July 2014
    I highly doubt the intention of world and trade chats was to match you with someone to find a loophole in a 'bound mat system', but rather to match you with another person and then use the provided legit trade window to complete the transaction.
    It also matches buyers and sellers for gold outside the legit means, allowing them to bypass the fee. I suppose they should be protected as well when one scams the other? It opens too gray of an area when you venture outside the provided legit means of trading.
    But hey, if you or any others want to deal with strangers outside the provided legit and safe methods provided and risk getting screwed out of your gear/coin, thats your prerogative.
    In many other real world cases, as people seem to need, like eBAY, Amazaon and the like, if you were to deal outside their provided means, you would not be covered or helped.
    I, for one, will not be doing this with the exception of through friends or reputable people as its simply not worth the risk, especially when you then consider PWE support and how wildly inconsistent it is. Issues like this only help to make that worse. This is such a gray area as this topic shows, so its no wonder the support on it is inconsistent.
    Saying its 'been ruled in favor of the victim' before doesnt mean anything with this kind of inconsistency. The argument can be made just as easily the other way. Not only based on forum topics, but by the actions of PWE themselves.
    There is no right or wrong answer here until PWE makes a choice of where they stand. Which they should do, there should be something in the ToS somewhere about dealings outside of the provided safe means of the trade window, the AH or catshops.

    And I never said it was stupid to expect the company to enforce their own rules. I never said the scammers should get away free. I did say it was stupid to be so haphazard with coin when safe means are provided. I don't think that quote from the ToS was originally intended to act as a babysitter clause for people who want to venture outside the provided means.
    But like I said, there is no right or wrong answer here, based on PWE's own actions, until they make it clear one way or the other. Which I doubt they will ever do - leaving the situation gray and risky. You can choose to hand over coins and mats without collateral and hope you get it back, and if you don't, hope the wildly inconsistent support sides with you since it could go either way. Seems like a lot of needless risk to me when there's legit options available.

    But they aren't venturing outside the provided means, not really. That's what I'm trying to get across to you with the car example. Buying a used car isn't technically through the official channel (dealership) but it isn't black market either. We have been able to sell crafting services for as long as crafting has been around. They enabled the trade window to make it so that you could trade nothing. This has been a key part of providing crafting services for ages. And PWE has been giving scammed stuff back on this for years on a case-by-case basis, to assume a reversal of policy just because they've been even more inconsistent lately (when that is true on all levels of service) isn't really being realistic because there is a chance that anyone who submitted a ticket about it could still get the offender banned and there stuff given back. Just because you find it stupid to not get collateral or claim it's illegitimate (which is NOT supported by game design) that is your personal opinion. Crafting services have been around for ages and PWE has facilitated these. They don't even require some kind of item or coin exchange for trade.

    And no this isn't so you can pass stuff to your alts. There was a rule a long time ago before it was reversed that multiclienting was bannable period (only multiboxing was allowed) and so they weren't coding things in to make that easier. Lots of people who did follow that rule would look for secluded spaces, drop their stuff and then quickly log in their alt to trade items to them. Those people were attempting to do things in a way that wasn't designed and those people were the ones actually bypassing the trade window. As the free-for-all drops wasn't meant to pass things to your alts and I don't recall GMs refunding anyone ever for that. But IDK I wasn't a big poster at that time. They did eventually create the account stash to alleviate the sharing with alts problem. As well as allow multiclienting the second it didn't require anything more than starting up the game twice. The key difference between crafting services and people actually bypassing the trade tools like the drop people from yesteryear is that one has been supported through support for years now.

    Crafting services aren't "bypassing" the the trade window, the trade is still conducted through it. It's just a multi-step process.

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