seeker or blademaster

Mysticalluck - Lost City · July 2014

which is best for both pvp (nw, tw, pk...etc) and/or pve (dungeons, instances, bosses,fc...etc), seeker or blademaster. b:pleased

WannaBM - Archosaur · July 2014

Depends on what you think is best.

Seekers is generally considered to be one of the easiest classes to play, espescially pve.
BM is widely considered the most difficult class to play, both PvE and PvP.

I very much like BMs, they are versatile and classes that require some skills are much more fun than set up vortex and wait for everything to die.

Dont worry about peoples perception of balance. Neither class is very strong or weak compared to other classes. PvP results are decided primarily by gear, secondary by skill, and little by class balance. There is a bit of a paper rock scissors effect in the classes. (casters for example fear assasins like the plague while for HA classes, assasins are maybe the easiest opponents) But overal its pretty balanced at equal gear.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

All too often statements on these forums are treated as if they are fact's, when in fact most are just opinion's. (Especially when it comes to a significant amount of my posts.) xD

Either way I highly suggest you go for the seeker, especially if you can't swipe a credit card as the seeker is far better in arguable 'rubbish' gear than the bm, furthermore look at this guide about bm's and endgame play. Pvp literally does suck for bms, it really is easily the hardest class to play in pvp by far. (Though if you like what the guide has to say, and really don't mind the uphill battle with the bm class than go for the bm.)

Pve I would say they are about even, hell bms can even shine more than seekers under the right circumstances, especially when it comes to debuffs. I have said it before and i'll say it again bms in pve are absolutely brilliant nigh regardless of their gear, provided they are played correctly.

Mysticalluck - Lost City · July 2014

does this mean bm's r better at both pve and pvp than seekers? which is the cheapest class?

Evryn - Morai · July 2014

BM in PvE: Control and damage amplification (Heavens Flame and Glacial Spike). Also sometimes a secondary tank (with Marrow they can take quite a beating). BMs can easily selfheal with Diamond Sutra, and generate chi fast with a fast fist or claw weapon for sparking.
BM in PvP: Mostly control (Stun, stun, stun and more stun). They don't have the sheer damage output of some of the other melee classes, nor do they have many ranged skills, but make up for it with better survivability.

Seeker in PvE: Vovovovovovortex... basically. 90% of the time a party will take you in for this extremely potent AOE, but it's costly in terms of mana. You'll be burning a lot of (with current tokenprices expensive) Herbs. Seekers also have several potent debuffs, and unlike the BM, can deal a good bit of Metal damage (BMs are almost entirely physical dd). A seeker however isn't a class that can easily self-heal.
Seeker in PvP: Haven't encountered many, but I hear it has a much higher damage output then the BM. Metal damage allows it to engage heavy armor enemies more effectively then the BM. However, they are likely to have lower survivability since they can't easily selfheal.

Bottom line: A BM is a frontline SUPPORT character and should be played as such. A Seeker is a frontline damage dealer. If you plan to play solo or don't like team play, go with seeker. Otherwise a BM might be very interesting, since there's rather few around.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Seekers is generally considered to be one of the easiest classes to play, espescially pve.
BM is widely considered the most difficult class to play, both PvE and PvP.

i think BM more superior in PvE (same time cost more too), getting interval set for bm grant huge boss killing speed, useing aoe skills with good gear make them viable in aoe too, i feel way better in PvE than seeker and more expensive too and seeker more confortable with aoe zhen skill+ranged skill+metal skills.

well i agree seeker not hard in PvE but BM isn't that hard too (only more anoying in BM is the running mobs, well this became less problem at endgame)

In PvP i think BM alot harder to play but often BM underrated in pvp, well skilled bm could be very strong in PvP but like was said need more skill than for seeker.

Neither class is very strong or weak compared to other classes. PvP results are decided primarily by gear, secondary by skill, and little by class balance

note: then role a wizz and do pvp with same r9 3rd geared and primaled people than u.

opkossy · July 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

note: then role a wizz and do pvp with same r9 3rd geared and primaled people than u.

Read the order. Gear gaps, then skill gaps, then class balance issues is what he said so his opinion is that it's gear first (IE: R9 third cast vs G13 Nirvana), then skill (IE: An equal gear 1v1 between two BMs), and lastly class balance (IE: When equal gear/skill are on the table how no good seeker will ever lose to an archer unless some absurd amount of luck bordering on paper PvP happens).

Colum - Raging Tide · July 2014

Neither is better, both classes serve a different purpose like some already pointed out here. I play both classes, here are some of my PERSONAL pros and cons I've come across.

BM pros:

- Can do pulls even more easily than a Barbarian at some situations
- Aps-BM can work as a sub tank at bosses (Sure axe-BM can as well... if they hold aggro)
- Versaitility with weapons
- Lot of control skills
- Lot of chainable AOEs
- Very useful debuffs, such as HF, MSS and GS (one amplifies dafance, one reduces incoming damage, one reduces enemy defense and theyre all aoes)
- Versatility with builds and skills
- Wanted in squads for their debuffs/control ability and physical defense buff
- Ability to interrupt targets

BM cons:

- Sometimes difficult gameplay, unsure which skill would be the best for the situation etc
- Marrows will **** either elemental or physical defense (though phys def loss isnt as fatal from magic marrow as the magic def loss is from phys marrow)
- Some of the best combos consume a lot of chi

I'd also like to notify timing things such as HF, GS and RotP (AoE stun) has to be done right. A BM is not a macro class.

Seeker pros:

- Both physical and metal attacks, good damage
- Lot of interesting and useful debuffs and their weapon buffs
- Zhen-AoE (though many overuse it)
- Decent amount of other AoEs, somewhat chainable
- Can summon a pet for a short amount of time (Archangels of Justice) and they have nice debuff
- Also able to do pulls, though they will highly rely on their Vortex (the zhen aoe) and Bloodpaint buff
- High defense level due to their buffs
- Interesting skills such as Quid Pro Quo (throws negative effects back at target) and Transposition (switch places with target)
- Mix of ranged and melee attacks
- Wanted for AoEs

Seeker cons:

- Consumes a lot of mana
- Good combos consume a lot of chi
- Vortex is tiresome
- Kinda meh and predictable in PVP
- Their debuffs are hardly wanted/appreciated (for example Soul Shatter and some QPQ combos)
- Can get repetitive

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

OPKossy wrote: »

Read the order. Gear gaps, then skill gaps, then class balance issues is what he said so his opinion is that it's gear first (IE: R9 third cast vs G13 Nirvana), then skill (IE: An equal gear 1v1 between two BMs), and lastly class balance (IE: When equal gear/skill are on the table how no good seeker will ever lose to an archer unless some absurd amount of luck bordering on paper PvP happens).

what i wrote is valid, that was only example how isnt balanced now same geared class vs same geared another class (aka r9 3rd wizz vs r9 3rd another class), another thing r9 3rd bm vs r9 3rd seeker, but statement isn't valid to every class, also end game archer dmg sucks aswell how i heard but there advantage is on bow [purge], they more purge depend.

- Marrows will **** either elemental or physical defense (though phys def loss isnt as fatal from magic marrow as the magic def loss is from phys marrow)

acctually now a bit fixed with primal passive because lowered defence type now higher by 56-80% but now kinda screwed the % rate, so easy to reach now the 95% p.ressistance and p. marrow in pvp less effective than before. (lv100 pdef skill now to full buffedheavy class kinda useless because without it already close to 95% the p ressistance, ex. my wife with barb got 94.35% p ressitance with all buff in tiger form and if she get demon bm buff, or sage pdef buff then it is increase only +0.65%

)

For pro would add the nice aps class because can get 5 aps easier without became that weak if u aren't +12 (because higher hp, defence with fist if full buffed than claw archer, claw barb or sin and bp work aswell, still on way till r9 3rd have place where aps viable and very helpfull aswell)

but overall i agree with Colum

opkossy · July 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

what i wrote is valid, that was only example how isnt balanced now same geared class vs same geared another class (aka r9 3rd wizz vs r9 3rd another class), another thing r9 3rd bm vs r9 3rd seeker, but statement isn't valid to every class, also end game archer dmg sucks aswell how i heard but there advantage is on bow [purge], they more purge depend.

He never said classes were balanced. Just that he thinks skill and gear matter more. Telling him to play a maxed wiz with other maxed people in PvP... doesn't exactly counter what he's saying because, assuming both players are equally skilled, you've already passed his gear and skill thing he already pointed out and moved to class imbalances. And that's something he acknowledged already in the part you seem to disagree with.

If you were trying to say the wiz would lose to even people FAR below their gear/skill level, then sure you'd have a point... but as is the only thing your statement does is agree with him since you went and specified a scenario with equal gears involved. Even now you're still saying "equal geared" even though, since his statement hat gear>skill>class, your statement doesn't actually say anything against it.

WannaBM - Archosaur · July 2014

Indeed, what i meant to say is this.

I as an R9+10/12 regularly get into 6 v 1 fights into NW that are kind of good and equal fights. I assume those people are G16 low/mid refined for the most part.
On the other hand, there still are people who 2 shot me and who are for me pretty much unkillable. Those are the JOSD, +12, S card people. This difference is the extend of gear "imbalance"

Then comes skill. For example many seekers are noobs like me. They stand before me, we use some anti stun where needed and we hit eachother till one drops, either can win. Sometimes i meet a seeker with skills, he keeps moving all around, he even moves me around ! The confusion !. Hes hitting me from range and i barely get to hit him back. He is more skilled than i and owns the hell out of me.

Finally, there are the classes. Yes there is a difference. I laugh at sins and i **** my pants for psys and venos. The sin in turn seeks out the AAs because they are his easy targets. I fear archers more than seekers, yet the archer fears the seeker.
Its paper rock scissors. And overall, all the classes have some harder and some easier enemies. And the difference of their average ability vs all other classes is a lesser factor than skill and gear.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Mysticalluck - Lost City wrote: »

does this mean bm's r better at both pve and pvp than seekers? which is the cheapest class?

Let me try putting it this way.

PvP Lesser overall Cost: Seeker by far. (Though if your talking about gear alone, than they cost the same regardless... depending on what gear you get, but when it comes to the charm/apo etc cost the seeker will win out.)
PvE Less overall Cost: BM (Depending on what you want to do of course)

PvP Easier time killing, and ultimately in far fewer positions where they actually have to tank: Seeker (With their def level, they are far more likely to avoid quite a few one shots.)
Pve Easier time killing overall: Bm's

PvP Easiest class to make a mistake and get away with it: Seeker
PvE Easiest class to make a mistake and get away with it: Damn near Even.

PvP Better Class: (easiest to play/get away with rubbish gear): Seeker
PvE Better class... easiest to play/get away with rubbish gear: Ultimately the seeker. (Though as I said earlier/before bms CAN get away with rubbish gear in pve, they can be absolutely brilliant when played correctly)

PvP most consistent (as far as damage/tanking goes): Seeker
PvE most consistent (as far as damage/tanking goes): Seeker (Especially with all the anti aps buff on bosses these days)

PvP Highest Damage output: Seeker
PvE Highest Damage output: Ultimately the S e e k e r UNLESS there isn't the anti aps on the boss than its the BM. (They can also achieve the highest spike damage, but its such a difficult thing for bms to do, that I am not sure how its done myself.)

PvP Most Chi reliant: Bm
PvE Most Chi reliant: Bm

PvP Hardest time maintaining that chi: BM
PvE Hardest time maintaining that chi: Bm (UNLESS it's on bosses, than it's seekers.)

PvP Most apo/charm/assistance needed: BM
PvE Most apo/charm/assistance needed: (Neither class needs help soloing mobs or bosses, but bm's WILL be able to do it FAR sooner than a seeker.)

Best debuffer in PvP OR PvE: BM (Though beware that debuffs REGARDLESS of what class they're coming from... have been really difficult to take advantage of with the purify proc being as mainstream as it has been.

---

As for some of the other stuff I may not have mentioned, what colum said is quite accurate.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for some of the other stuff I may not have mentioned, what colum said is quite accurate.

colum was mentioned was kinda balanced the both class, not only mentioned the cons of one class and pro to other, ex. u didnt mentioned bm better farmer (tt, nirvy etc) or better team support with hf/gs(gs+tanglire combo)/aoe stun/buff/bm got defence level ignore skill and tricks (aka disarm enemy for lower their soulforce for a while)/chance for purge on high hp low dmg target with spear, chi also obtainable with primal skill a bit better but in pve if u aps the stuff then chi gaining far over the seeker, somehow these missing from ur list

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

colum was mentioned was kinda balanced the both class, not only mentioned the cons of one class and pro to other, ex. u didnt mentioned bm better farmer (tt, nirvy etc) or better team support with hf/gs(gs+tanglire combo)/aoe stun/buff/bm got defence level ignore skill and tricks (aka disarm enemy for lower their soulforce for a while)/chance for purge on high hp low dmg target with spear, chi also obtainable with primal skill a bit better but in pve if u aps the stuff then chi gaining far over the seeker, somehow these missing from ur list

Your right I didn't but colum did pretty much cover it, furthermore there were plenty of 'categories' where I could have just gave it to the seeker but I didn't, and really that Pve Easier time killing overall: Bm's more or less suggest that they are a better farmer for pve than seekers.

Also seriously I didn't say that it was impossible to get chi back, and you are right it is easier to regain that chi these days thanks to primal skills but it still does NOT change the fact that it is STILL easier to maintain chi/not use it at all on a seeker, be it pvp, or pve. Therefore bm's ARE more chi reliant, and also have a much harder time maintaining it. (Though aye there are certain situations where the bm does indeed have better ability to regain the chi) <-- That does NOT mean it's impossible for bms to maintain it, or even not use it at all/not to mention there are obviously times where bm's chi gaining ability is far superior than a seekers.

The apsing bit isn't missing from the list, your just ignoring it. PvE Hardest time maintaining that chi: Bm (UNLESS it's on bosses, than it's seekers.) If its a mob most people can kill it long before a bm or sin even gets near to aps the mob long enough to gain that chi. Though really I shouldn't have to be explaining that bit. (edit) Obviously with chi gaining skills, etc it isn't that hard to maintain chi in pve, but still essentially harder for bm's over seekers.

EDIT: Furthermore, although I did add in a little bit of a note on the last point I made, it was meant for all classes not just bm's, but bms won that category. All you want to seem to see is the negative. ;/

EDIT 2: Obviously there is a bit of a very small grain of truth in what you said, but really that post wasn't all negative, I did list a few of the finer points for bms.

Evryn - Morai · July 2014

A 4 or 5 APS fist BM will have no problems whatsoever maintaining chi in PVE. In PvP it can be a lot harder though... As for timing the correct AOE, it can be half-macrod. I have set one up for PVE bossfights:
(repeat) - Heavens Flame - Myriad Sword - Glacial Spike - Cyclone Heel - (standard attack)
I target the boss, tick off that combo, and after that I can just trigger the proper AOE by switching to the right weapon. Very handy for rapidly triggering both Glacial and Heavens flame.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The apsing bit isn't missing from the list, your just ignoring it. PvE Hardest time maintaining that chi: Bm (UNLESS it's on bosses, than it's seekers.) If its a mob most people can kill it long before a bm or sin even gets near to aps the mob long enough to

i would say this also depend on situation, example go pv with **** gear, there example wizzard suck and die, bm can hold mobs alot easier and aoeing it, when gear is end game and hard refine then situation change, wizz can 1-2hit the mobs but until u get ur end game gear with refines have few day/work

gain that chi. Though really I shouldn't have to be explaining that bit. (edit) Obviously with chi gaining skills, etc it isn't that hard to maintain chi in pve, but still essentially harder for bm's over seekers.

chi gain a bit different also, like bm during running can make a minor chi without any target

another thing the charm needing.... the seeker zhen/vortex eat damn much mana, even u above the learning level still not sure u can keep the vortex until bm can spam skill(yes its lower dmg but also could be move between aoe skills)

EDIT: Furthermore, although I did add in a little bit of a note on the last point I made, it was meant for all classes not just bm's, but bms won that category. All you want to seem to see is the negative. ;/

EDIT 2: Obviously there is a bit of a very small grain of truth in what you said, but really that post wasn't all negative, I did list a few of the finer points for bms.

my note about aoe bm with **** gear vs seeker:
when u example low level, use tt gear etc, i can't say seeker got better survibility in aoing mob example in pv if both bm/seeker selfbuffed, overall seeker compared with bm decent vs ranged/melee mobs until bm worse vs ranged but alot better vs melee mobs.
if 1hit mobs then in most of instance can just run and few times 1-1 aoe then i would say bm would be faster a bit (since later at boss bm got advantage)

if both buffed but in pve also the advantage of def lv a bit less if we talk about josd bm and seeker than vit or deity bm or seeker.

also low level bm got a easier start period a bit ty to buff, heal and let not underestimate if u are in bad situation the control skills what can save ur *** alot times.

in pvp bm can distract a strong enemy until seeker got only few controll skill so alot less support than bm but more ranged potentionel and a nuke skill.

Overall i absolute don't feel bm less good than seeker in pvp or in pve, only bm more situational (example self buffed r9 3rd bm alot more annoying with caster than a seeker, in soloing stuff better, in kiteing worse vs mobs etc etc) until seeker decent a bit in more thing (range, elemental skill, few controll) thats why maybe easier to play with it.
(+dont need fast weapon swaping hehe)

(was a old mmorpg where the wizzard was mixed with dark knight a bit, but even got ranged skill there not was better than the dark knight at everywhere)

Alphaben - Raging Tide · July 2014

My advice is to try both, and see which you enjoy more.

After all, what good is it if you can't enjoy dropping a sword storm on peoples heads or watching archangels slap around pkers?

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

A 4 or 5 APS fist BM will have no problems whatsoever maintaining chi in PVE. In PvP it can be a lot harder though... As for timing the correct AOE, it can be half-macrod. I have set one up for PVE bossfights:
(repeat) - Heavens Flame - Myriad Sword - Glacial Spike - Cyclone Heel - (standard attack)
I target the boss, tick off that combo, and after that I can just trigger the proper AOE by switching to the right weapon. Very handy for rapidly triggering both Glacial and Heavens flame.

There is no place where a bm can truly MAINTAIN their chi enough to triple spark. They absolutely should be using their chi far faster than they can retain (or keep (or) maintain)... it. It takes quite a bit of looking at each situation and knowing when its better to 'maintain'/retain your chi to use your better debuffs.

What you and shadow seem to be thinking I am talking about is rebuilding it, and that is different than 'maintain.' Even so... what you said is not entirely true, I can think of 2 places where even my 5 aps bm > struggles < to truly rebuild their chi, and that is on MOBS, and on bosses where you have to MOVE around a lot, like in FSP. (Obviously it's not impossible to keep chi up, but it can be difficult at times... especially during mobs/boss fights you have to move around a lot on.)

Furthermore, you can't just use chi skills and expect your 4/5 aps to get your chi back up to hf every 30 seconds, there are times where even that 4/5 aps fails to get chi back up fast enough. (Obviously there are times where it will, but you still have to be careful, and smart with your chi consumption, bm's do use A LOT more of it debuffing, and as a side effect they do have trouble... keeping a hold of it to do a triple spark of their own, though there are times where they can triple spark.)

As I said M a i n t a i n is DIFFERENT than building chi up. Maintain is pretty much as I am implying. Look at the definition Essentially the ability to RETAIN/PRESERVE. Not the ability to rebuild it under the right conditions.

Though if I WAS talking about rebuilding chi then yea bm's would win out.

--

Also @ shadow, I am not sure what your even on about, usually I can get an idea of what your trying to say but not this time. :$

What little I could decipher.

Again MAINTAIN is more or less getting chi up, and keeping it, for a decent amount of time... which any bm worth his or her weight in squad (assuming they are the only bm in squad.. hell sometimes even when there is 2/3)... will be using chi at a much quicker and consistent rate than any seeker. (Personally I feel that the only class that can even arguably say they have more trouble maintaining chi than bms is barbs, but in the end I still have to say bms use the most chi out of ANY class in game, though as i said that bit is definitely debatable)... Though that is a discussion for another thread... original poster asked about BM's and seeker's ONLY.

EDIT: @The charm bit... I didn't say seekers or any other class for that matter wouldn't find charms/apos etc useful/so called 'needed'... i said bms were "MOST apo/charm/assistance needed... reliant ... which is absoutley true, their so called better hp/best support role means NOTHING if they can't get near, which is extremely difficult to do in rubbish gear. (Again since this seems to be missed interpreted a hell of alot...)... I am NOT saying other classes do not have a difficult time in rubbish gear, just that bms have it the ROUGHEST/hardest.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Again MAINTAIN is more or less getting chi up, and keeping it, for a decent amount of time... which any bm worth his or her weight in squad (assuming they are the only bm in squad.. hell sometimes even when there is 2/3)... will be using chi at a much quicker and consistent rate than any seeker. (Personally I feel that the only class that can even arguably say they have more trouble maintaining chi than bms is barbs, but in the end I still have to say bms use the most chi out of ANY class in game, though as i said that bit is definitely debatable)... Though that is a discussion for another thread... original poster asked about BM's and seeker's ONLY.

we talked about bm gain easier the chi (alot easier and also eat it if use hf/gs etc but that make more usefull in big squad) what else important in pve? if a boss and big squad then u dont need allways 3 spark, with debuff the team do alot more dmg but if u are solo then dont need allways debuff because triple spark could be better and far out dmg the seeker what make bm alot better dd in this case.

my wife play with sage barb, got no problem with chi, she use transform,bestial rage,Cornered Beast, in human primal Stomp of the Beast King, or even in tiger form the devour work well +sage li techinque, i dont say its like a 5aps but gain 3 spark enough fast.

EDIT: @The charm bit... I didn't say seekers or any other class for that matter wouldn't find charms/apos etc useful/so called 'needed'... i said bms were "MOST apo/charm/assistance needed... reliant ... which is absoutley true, their so called better hp/best support role means NOTHING if they can't get near, which is extremely difficult to do in rubbish gear. (Again since this seems to be missed interpreted a hell of alot...)... I am NOT saying other classes do not have a difficult time in rubbish gear, just that bms have it the ROUGHEST/hardest.

really? maybe because u don't played with other class, ex. barb with rubbish gear eay alot hp charm, i can bet with u eat more than a bm since less defence and dmg output except if aps barb but still aps bm considering eat less charm than aps barb, then there is the seeker, can't really vortex without mp charm (or do u think mp charm is free?)

only place where bm eat maybe more charm when must run after mobs what most is earlier game, but there everything so changeing fast, like example wizzard harder in early game and can't really solo too much stuff, in pvp pretty ****, then after lv90 became better and in pve too more viable then primal where wizz became more better in pve and and fall back in pvp, or seeker who didn't get enough aoe in early game or defence compared with bm, eat more pot, then later have more aoe but example the strongest aoe can't keep open(if i remember well u need around 90 or 95+ to have enough mana), barb... early game just miss miss miss, damn annoying but later example at lv80 still miss but alot less time but still dmg not comparable with bm so eat more charm.

actually funny to say how charm and apo hungry now the melee class, when ALOT better their situation since bp exist, if u played this game without tideborn then u can understand the claw archer who apsing without bp so eat more charm too (vs boss the high eva not really noticeable).

in few point agree how bm more pot needer, since wizzard or other low hp class in early game die long before a bm if pull more mob until bm need pot and keep alot more mob distracted

well in pvp seeker i guess need more pot than bm with rubish gear because since lack of enough control skill easier to kill than a bm (that other thing seeker easier can attack coz of range but that doesn't mean he able survive longer only coz of more defence level in 1vs1 situations)
true, few other class who rubbish geared vs better geared sin don't need potion because they instantly dead by 1 hit

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

we talked about bm gain easier the chi (alot easier and also eat it if use hf/gs etc but that make more usefull in big squad) what else important in pve? if a boss and big squad then u dont need allways 3 spark, with debuff the team do alot more dmg but if u are solo then dont need allways debuff because triple spark could be better and far out dmg the seeker what make bm alot better dd in this case.

my wife play with sage barb, got no problem with chi, she use transform,bestial rage,Cornered Beast, in human primal Stomp of the Beast King, or even in tiger form the devour work well +sage li techinque, i dont say its like a 5aps but gain 3 spark enough fast.

really? maybe because u don't played with other class, ex. barb with rubbish gear eay alot hp charm, i can bet with u eat more than a bm since less defence and dmg output except if aps barb but still aps bm considering eat less charm than aps barb, then there is the seeker, can't really vortex without mp charm (or do u think mp charm is free?)

only place where bm eat maybe more charm when must run after mobs what most is earlier game, but there everything so changeing fast, like example wizzard harder in early game and can't really solo too much stuff, in pvp pretty ****, then after lv90 became better and in pve too more viable then primal where wizz became more better in pve and and fall back in pvp, or seeker who didn't get enough aoe in early game or defence compared with bm, eat more pot, then later have more aoe but example the strongest aoe can't keep open(if i remember well u need around 90 or 95+ to have enough mana), barb... early game just miss miss miss, damn annoying but later example at lv80 still miss but alot less time but still dmg not comparable with bm so eat more charm.

actually funny to say how charm and apo hungry now the melee class, when ALOT better their situation since bp exist, if u played this game without tideborn then u can understand the claw archer who apsing without bp so eat more charm too (vs boss the high eva not really noticeable).

in few point agree how bm more pot needer, since wizzard or other low hp class in early game die long before a bm if pull more mob until bm need pot and keep alot more mob distracted

You really don't seem to understand that there is a difference between MAINTAIN, and the rebuild of chi, of course bms rebuild it faster than seekers... UNDER the RIGHT circumstances.

Also due to the fact that a bm can NOT be loose/a complete and utter dunce when it comes to chi management it IS harder to 'maintain' and use that chi wisely. In other words they should NOT squander away the chi they gain wastefully. edit: Meaning its HARDER for them to maintain (or retain) that chi. (A seeker can gain 50/2 sparks, and actually keep it long enough to do a triple spark or w/e... a good bm as I said will be building up that chi as fast as possible and expending it ASAP (usually during people's sparks) via hf/gs/mss.)

--

I have been around in this game for quite some time, I am well aware of how much help bp has given to the melee community. (Really I am not sure why you are even bringing up pve, I said that pve wise both bm and seekers can both get away without charm/apo/assistance. I know damn well how much a bm can get away with without those things including bp, especially with the right help behind them, again nigh regardless of their gear.)

Really though bp doesn't help all that much in pvp, obviously it helps but no where to the extent it does in pve.

Even so I have played every class in 'rubbish' gear be it pve or pvp, I am fairly sure I know when/where a charm is most needed for each class, I know for a fact that barbs can get away with doing plenty charmless while under-geared/under-leveled when played correctly. (Again I didn't say bm's/other classes didn't need a charm for actual effective PVE play.)

--

You also continue to bring in other classes, when I was only speaking about bm's/seekers in that post that sparked this back and forth commentary.

--

To be fair though, there is indeed certain scenarios where certain classes need a charm more than other classes. Though given that mass pvp is the way the game has been going, and how rough it is on a bm in rubbish gear, I do believe they are the most apo/charm/assistant needy class in game by far even with the NH update. Though again there are indeed certain places where other classes truimph that, also AGAIN I am NOT saying other classes do NOT benefit from charms/apo/assistance just that bms need those the MOST.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To be fair though, there is indeed certain scenarios where certain classes need a charm more than other classes. Though given that mass pvp is the way the game has been going, and how rough it is on a bm in rubbish gear, I do believe they are the most apo/charm/assistant needy class in game by far even with the NH update. Though again there are indeed certain places where other classes truimph that, also AGAIN I am NOT saying other classes do NOT benefit from charms/apo/assistance just that bms need those the MOST.

if u talk only about pvp then why didnt start a rubbish geared seeker and try pvp with him? (i talk about surviability not about dmg) and can see who need more apo pot

(also depend what u call rubbish, coz i also got a seeker with tt90 and bm, both 1hit to anybody hehe, but killing r9 2nd +7-8 not josded seeker or bm then i say seeker alot easier with example wizz, even a seeker r0 3rd +8 died by 3rd deity sage sin with dagger+12 when was unbuffed and sin out spirited but another bm in nw not died)

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

if u talk only about pvp then why didnt start a rubbish geared seeker and try pvp with him? (i talk about surviability not about dmg) and can see who need more apo pot

As I know I have said before I have played a seeker in rubbish gear before, as matter of fact in the same gear as this bm back when it had far more rubbish gear than I/it does today.

The bm is in far more situations where it has to be able to take the hits, and without a charm/apo/assistance he or she WILL die QUICK especially if they're in bad gear, obviously the same can be said of any and ALL classes, but at least the other classes have ways of contributing to their team before they just rinse and repeat that process of trying to get in/be of some real decent assistance to their team. Though yes even bms have a few skills that fit that bill, but that still doesn't change the fact of how easy it is to kill most bms.

Though yes to be fair most of what I say disappears when you do get real badass gear, the going is still very rough on bms compared to seekers.

What I am trying to say is this:

I realize we all have different experiences, but I for one can get away with apoless/charmless/assistant needed pvp play on all classes regardless of their gear/how rubbish I am with them and their skills but 1 and that is indeed bm's. I realize full well others do NOT share this opinion, and I also know real well that other classes absolutely benefit from charm/apo/assistance pvp game play.

Also @ your edit... yea my 'rubbish' gear was ever so slightly better than that, it has definitely changed since last I posted my silly or whatever you want to call them... 'rants.'

WannaBM - Archosaur · July 2014

While most people are proud of their class and post how great it is, slivaf has never been posting anything else than complains about how disadvantaged his BM is.
I wouldnt really take it too serious.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · July 2014

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

While most people are proud of their class and post how great it is, slivaf has never been posting anything else than complains about how disadvantaged his BM is.
I wouldnt really take it too serious.

I really don't feel that is true at all, there has been plenty of times/posts/tiny mentions of how good the bm can be... under the right circumstances/as long as it isn't mass pvp/nw.

Case and point the only delta thread I ever made. Granted it has been a ridiculously long time ago, still there are some more recent examples albeit small examples of non complaints about bm's. (EDIT: Really I wasn't this.. pessimistic about bms before nw came around, and more or less 'forced' (obviously no one was holding a gun to my head thankfully. XD) me to see/'feel'/be so frustrated with how badly bms have it in mass pvp.)

Wewt for only wanting to see the bad. :$ Albeit I must admit it is hard to see the times where I showed the good/thrills of being a bm. :X

Really though: Despite all my 'QQ' about bms in this day and age with mass pvp/nw... I still wouldn't choose any other class to start this game off with... though in the same sense I wouldn't exactly recommend it either. Though obviously that can't/wont stop others from choosing it, and I am also aware that I have yet again showed some bad with the good, which ALL classes have some of both. (I am afraid I have to take that back... I would have to ask if they choose to pvp with it or not, and if they can actually get rather decent gear in a reasonable amount of time, if they could I would be more willing to suggest the bm class, but if they can't... then... yea... I wouldn't suggest it IF they plan on pvping with any classes, however if all they want to do is pve, and they're wondering which class I feel is the best to have fun with that? That would be without a doubt be bm's.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · July 2014

i feel the BM is allowed more versatility if when it comes to gear gap in PVP. Where as a seeker you seem to need more straight up gear help. Why i say this is because when push comes to shove in those bigger PVP instances like TW/NW, the BM can successfully accomplish a bit more things with the help of apothecary or small time meds, and with a bit of skill you can come out alive too. Whereas the seeker if the gear gap is too large against your opponent, you cant really pull off great things.
As far as survivability was concerned I always felt seeker had it easier.
You have alot more options to juggle around if your playing BM tho, some pple may like that, some may not.

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i feel the BM is allowed more versatility if when it comes to gear gap in PVP. Where as a seeker you seem to need more straight up gear help. Why i say this is because when push comes to shove in those bigger PVP instances like TW/NW, the BM can successfully accomplish a bit more things with the help of apothecary or small time meds, and with a bit of skill you can come out alive too. Whereas the seeker if the gear gap is too large against your opponent, you cant really pull off great things.
As far as survivability was concerned I always felt seeker had it easier.
You have alot more options to juggle around if your playing BM tho, some pple may like that, some may not.

I feel the exact opposite.

I think people really underestimate just how useful it is attacking at a distance. Sure bms have their plethora of stuns, and a few other things that are a bit notable, but with the amount of chi those skills to take, and how difficult it is to close the distances especially while under-geared/running around apoless/charmless/assistant free... life on a bm is insanely freaking hard/annoying. Ergo they really do have to be able to live/survive a one shot, which is nigh impossible without def levels/better gear, neither or which they have... though they do ger access to that with better gear/the right blessing. Still giving that anyone can get those def levels, and seekers having an already built in skill that boosts def level, it is far easier to avoid most one shots on a seeker compared to a bm.

Though one of a seekers biggest weakness is their anti cc... or even just cc ability is significantly lacking compared to that of a bm, (a bm HAS to live in order for their cc to even come into play, and without def lvls, apo, charm/assistance they will have VERY little chance to do anything at all.) .. with their (seekers) ranged attacks they truly are in far fewer positions where they actually have to tank damage from others, even so their def lvl boosting skill(s) allows them to absorb damage at a better rate than bms, even with their marrows. Sure the marrows do more for their magic def, compared to full fledged def levels, but I still find this seeker far more tanky than any bm I have ran across in similar gear, hell far more tankier than my bm in the exact same gear.

It's no secret that many a bm left their class behind when NW came around, it wasn't until after the NH update that our server started seeing an slight uptick in bm activity.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think people really underestimate just how useful it is attacking at a distance
.........
Though one of a seekers biggest weakness is their anti cc... or even just cc ability is significantly lacking compared to that of a bm

the lacking range compansate the anti cc and cc skills, since absolute not that fearfull a seeker near you than a bm... if a bm go close to u and it is a good bm then hard to go away but seeker if less geared then can't really problem, got voidstep only but if do then just more easy to kill by his target, bm got alot nasty toy

Sure the marrows do more for their magic def, compared to full fledged def levels, but I still find this seeker far more tanky than any bm I have ran across in similar gear, hell far more tankier than my bm in the exact same gear.

alot case marrow > numbness, but well marrow have weakness too in group pvp

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver · July 2014

seeker having no CC vs melee class? are you guys for real god b:laugh

Seeker have the most hax immobilize to deal with melee and can spam it along with northen sky waltz / Wind blade immobilize. Keeping a bm/barb at distance is a joke for any seeker who play correctly. Ask a Bm that pk like Slewdem on DW, i will Kite him while doing constant damage and lock him in place.

and also shadow, marrow are way inferior to adrenal numbness. why, because resistance are borderline alrdy at the limit with passive and gear state, where def lvl can stack lot better. and marrow make you vulnerable to the other type of damage. many bm in m.marrow just get oen shot by physical hits.

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

the lacking range compansate the anti cc and cc skills, since absolute not that fearfull a seeker near you than a bm... if a bm go close to u and it is a good bm then hard to go away but seeker if less geared then can't really problem, got voidstep only but if do then just more easy to kill by his target, bm got alot nasty toy

alot case marrow > numbness, but well marrow have weakness too in group pvp

The anti cc and CC skills do not do enough to compensate bms while undergeared they get smoked way too fast and way too easily. Range is superior to having to get up close take hits from every which direction, and in most cases having to expend chi just to get close, (which bms do have to do, which makes it hard for them to use chi for oh I dunno their... best cc in game ... which I might add that is true but it doesn't change nor does it truly justify just how difficult it is to close gaps on a bm.... (if i had to put an percentage on this its only 80% justifiable) they ARE the hardest class to play/enjoy in mass pvp) and even when they do manage to close gaps/have chi a lot of their stuns are easily negated/avoidable. (thank goodness for the nh update with Dragon rising) Range has always been superior and it always will be, but yea... when bms struggle as much as they do, many of them rightfully question wtf am I doing on this gimped *** class. Bm's do NOT really have the ability to survive well enough for their stuns to even come into the picture, (EDIT: until real decent gear/badass endgame gear) sure they are far more scary when they're up close, but they are also ridiculously easy keeping at bay, a lot of them are ridiculously easy to kill.

As for the marrow being greater than numbness, I absolutely disagree, numbness doesn't give me def to one stat, and make me suffer in another aspect, marrows ARE the worse double edged sword in game, sure that may be an opinion, but it IS what I believe, and nothing has... and nothing will change that... sure nh lessened the blow, but it is still the sharpest double edged sword in game. Furthermore as I said, it is ridiculously easy to one shot a bm even with marrows up, this seeker can actually avoid a lot more one shots in the exact same gear/against the same people/skills used against.

The amount of difficulty it takes to play a bm isn't justified by them having the best CC in game, and neither do the marrows, or even the larger hp pool... all are a rather weak argument... not to mention their craptastic damage even while endgame, and also.. when the purify proc became mainstream before the nh expasion... it would erase everything a bm would do, and it still is just no where near as much... and sure the bms had the best counter to it, but it didn't keep people with the purify proc from running rampant all over the place damn near unchecked. (Do NOT get me wrong, I am not saying those aren't useful, but when it takes the bm gearing up, or having to jump through an insane amount of hoops to be of some help to their team... when they are out-geared whether they are alone or not, is just plain crazy/wrong.) I know I could take the same gear to ANY other class, and there would be more potential to actually help my teammates against the same people who out-gear me, obviously I would still die just like the bm would... and really always should... but not to the extent that it is.

EDIT: @ Ebri I said they're LACKING compared to bm, not that they didn't have any, I am well aware that they have quite a few very decent CC skills. ^^

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · July 2014

Ebrithalia - Dreamweaver wrote: »

seeker having no CC vs melee class? are you guys for real god b:laugh

Seeker have the most hax immobilize to deal with melee and can spam it along with northen sky waltz / Wind blade immobilize. Keeping a bm/barb at distance is a joke for any seeker who play correctly. Ask a Bm that pk like Slewdem on DW, i will Kite him while doing constant damage and lock him in place.

not cc vs melee , cc vs everybody because then we talk only about barb and bm (sin can jump enough often and got tidal, also bm if got chi then can Reel In you), but seeker can't really stun/seal the target when want like bm, in nw war most of seeker just press ranged skills vs ranged class, yes they got advantage in offense term but can't really do nothing vs better geared people (post above) since can stun lock or something the target for enough long duration

and also shadow, marrow are way inferior to adrenal numbness. why, because resistance are borderline alrdy at the limit with passive and gear state, where def lvl can stack lot better. and marrow make you vulnerable to the other type of damage. many bm in m.marrow just get oen shot by physical hits.

.

in endgame gear i dont think m marrow let u 1hit by physical hit (except maybe if u zerk crit with 3rd spark and debuff with gemini slash) ty now the primal defence skills what make less disadvantage on marrow

(well i talk about full buff situation because i think in tw, nw mostly u r full buffed when going with marrow, right when unbuffed the marrow risky, but example in solo situation even u selfbuffed in 1vs1 could be handsome)

now during primal days i see bm more balanced defence with marrow than before, not only defence passive but also more stat=>more pdef

other side well stacking pdef isn't too good, but also def level isn't same effective difference between attack level and defence level is high (so if can't affoird the josd), so not defence level itself nice, the difference between defence and attack level what make difference

(both class gain more benefit and endgame from josd, so endgame way to both class is same with stoneing)

it is ridiculously easy to one shot a bm even with marrows up

in game wizzard got 1 phys skill, exclude that archer hardly 1hit by phyisical attack so in solo situation mostly seeker able handle high phys dmg and maybe mystic 2 shot with AS (because vs sin/another bm/barb dont use m.marrow, cleric hurt but cant 1shot, wizz maybe able but well, cost alot the combo and not sure bm not interupt u easily sometimes, psy can't nuke with phys skill,still maybe mystic left)

their craptastic damage

well they need luck with zerk crit (but they also got crit increase skill anyway) but got few really good skill what make over 100% base dmg also few ignore defence level, i can't say if vs seeker the bm do **** dmg then same vs sin/caster **** dmg too :P have few really nice video in bm section about how to use properly the combos

and make me suffer in another aspect

other hand let say a demon bm (like most of them) use bell (75+75% pdef for 15sec but spamable) and woop lost no pdef coz of marrow (marrow give 150% ele def and reduce only 90%pdef)

acctually to be honest even don't spam bell but only 15% eq pdef loss compared with seeker for +150% eq mdef and if we add to both the 56% eq pdef from 700 str and another 84% from primal passive the the 15% loss isn't that much (this if they selfbuff, if fullbuffed then well difference higher)

ARE the hardest class to play/enjoy in mass pvp

i agree but maybe most enjoyable in 8/10 solo situation and in group very depend on enemy team )

Also no doubt now the p/ele defence less advantage but i think still viable if u able to make balanced between ele def and pdef because (just example) 65k pdef and 20k mdef worst than 40k pdef and 40k ele def

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver · July 2014

in game wizzard got 1 phys skill, exclude that archer hardly 1hit by phyisical attack so in solo situation mostly seeker able handle high phys dmg and maybe mystic 2 shot with AS (because vs sin/another bm/barb dont use m.marrow, cleric hurt but cant 1shot, wizz maybe able but well, cost alot the combo and not sure bm not interupt u easily sometimes, psy can't nuke with phys skill,still maybe mystic left)

While that is possible, via a seeker/archer, you do also realize... that it is also possible for a bm to get one shot by an magic attack with magic marrow up... right? Yes it has to do with their gear, but it is still more than possible, hell a little too easy even. Obviously they shouldn't be invincible, and the issue is a far more masked in 1 on 1... as if a bm is a one shot to someone who out-gears them in mass pvp they will be a one shot to that same person in a 1 on 1 fight. (my point is there is very little a bm can do skill wise with their own built in skills/apoless/charmless/assistance free to get near and land a hit or two while ungergeared.)

well they need luck with zerk crit (but they also got crit increase skill anyway) but got few really good skill what make over 100% base dmg also few ignore defence level, i can't say if vs seeker the bm do **** dmg then same vs sin/caster **** dmg too :P have few really nice video in bm section about how to use properly the combos

We seem to be noticing two different things, as I have seen several videoes, the bms I have seen get hit fairly hard, while struggling to do actual decent damage. You are right there are a >few< skills that a bm have that allow them to dish out quite a bit of damage nigh regardless of the gear their opponent has on.

other hand let say a demon bm (like most of them) use bell (75+75% pdef for 15sec but spamable) and woop lost no pdef coz of marrow (marrow give 150% ele def and reduce only 90%pdef)

acctually to be honest even don't spam bell but only 15% eq pdef loss compared with seeker for +150% eq mdef and if we add to both the 56% eq pdef from 700 str and another 84% from primal passive the the 15% loss isn't that much (this if they selfbuff, if fullbuffed then well difference higher)

It isn't as easy to do that as you make it sound, even with that strategy it is still far too easy to kill a bm. Not to mention that 10 seconds is a ridiculously small window, and it is extremely easy for a bm to be caught out of it, especially when they're busy spamming other skills, and getting whacked by veryone that has them targeted.

seeker or blademaster

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