Sins just stop it

Honestly, sin's aren't THAT broken.
They have 1 skill that just makes them pretty good at everything and that is tidal. I think if they just limited tidal to debuffs (damage amps and DoTs) then it would be fine but the problem is that tidal blocks too many things really.

I mean seriously think about it. Remember when purify proc came out on r9R2 caster weapons and everyone and their mother cried when nation wars made it super cheap to get.
Tidal is essentially purify spell without the speed buff but hey, it's got a much higher proc rate so fair trade.

If you give any class in the game both something that is effectively a better version purify spell and god of frenzy, of course it's going to be over powered. There isnt much else any other class can do except wait/tank/stealth/kite till tidal wears off and then just try to CC and DD the shiit out of them.

To sin's who will come along and say that this is just a tidal QQ post, it's not. I dont mind it. I wish archers had some form of evasion like this since we were the original evasion class and quite frankly our 5.1 second useless group buff is outdated as hell, when compared to the practically instant and/or much more useful seeker buff, sin buffs....etc.


I mean at the end of the day it's not really the damage that's the problem. every class has the ability to crank out some big numbers. Most things in small scale and large scale pvp come down to buffs assuming gear is equal. (not talking about other class buffs since everyone can get these, more referring to self buffs.)

But simply looking at self buffs alone it's pretty easy to see the hierarchy of classes that are better in 1v1 situations is mostly dependent on these with sins and clerics at the top, archers on the bottom and everything else somewhere in between.
(probably ordered something like seekers, mystics, veno, wizards, barbs, psy, BM)
It's just the gap between each place in the hierarchy are not consistent and are much larger towards the top.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

1. Aww shucks, other primal skills then as all of them are broken, not as much as elim but still. Your posts and plain idiocy in them makes it hard for me to believe any skill on your part would be involved.

Another statement about my personality when you don't know me. How sad.

2. Strawman, didnt expect more from you though. You are the one who called sins 1vs1 class and argue for that reason they should just faceroll everything. Argument lies on semantics at best. But for arguments sake lets call it valid argument, which it imo isnt.

The hypocrisy. Definition of strawman, "creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition". Fact is sins don't face roll everything, but they are duelist, which by definition entails having the edge in 1v1's. Facerolling has more to do with gear and player skills imo. But what is my opinion worth, because I don't only play a sin right? If it's an arguument in semantics, then argue the semantics, don't write the argument off as if you know all. You say I commit strawmans when you do the same exact thing, in the very same post

Perfect World International Forum > PvP Ponderings
-Best PvP class?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide
Raging Tide Ambassador
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,904
# 3
11-15-2011, 08:47 PM
for 1v1? Sins, bar none.

upsides
Perfect World User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 113
# 5
11-16-2011, 04:28 AM
I'll give you an honest answer. For 1vs1 PvP you'd want to roll an Assassin.

DaggerThorn - Harshlands
Perfect World User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 5
# 15
09-07-2013, 10:54 PM
Sins are the best in 1 vs 1

Perfect World International Forum > Class Discussion > Archer
How do Archers beat sins 1v1?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver
WowSuchNonfactor
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,902
# 2
08-07-2013, 06:28 PM
A sin will always have the edge in 1v1. That you cannot get around.

I could keep going, but I don't feel it would be worth my time.

To me 1vs1 class in balanced game is something that can beat most if not every class in game if played well. Right now situation is more of will beat every class unless played horribly. Even if we took your argument of 1vs1 class as valid, it wouldnt defend the point just how powerful class sin is currently.

Nor would it prove a point considering the mass of variables that go into PvP. Unless you provide me with evidence, all I see is 'here say'.

3. Your arguments I dont respond to I consider idiotic enough to refute themselves. Like seriously, things of the kind "30s downtime on tidal is plenty of time to purge the sin" are idiotic on so many levels I cant see the point of wasting my time on it when vast majority dont need any explanation of why said statement is idiotic.

It's not idiotic, its unlikely, but not impossible. This is a strawman. Instead of arguing why its not possible, you attempt refute the argument by saying it's idiotic. SO are you saying it is impossible, or not? And if it's not impossible, then my point still stands.

4. Every single post? It was idiotic argument to the level I didnt consider possible and even still you were adamant on being right bout it. HH was at the time hardest hitting sin skill with 5s stun on it. And the reason why it was waste of spirit and coin to level? "All of the antistuns everywhere". So why is it relevant? It demonstrates perfectly how pointless arguing with you can be. Closest word I got for it is "insane troll logic".
When I made that post I was newly level 100, had just jioned my first TW fac, barely pked, and didn't have enough coin to level all of my skills. Level 11 headhunt was relatively expensive at the time and I had asked was it worth leveling, and gave my reasons why I did not think so, at the time. I never said I was right, and I am adamant, just as you are right now. It's not wrong to speak confidently.

You seem to dwell on that as if I have no room for growth in this game, when we both know saying so would just make you look like an ***. You have brought this up in every post you have responded to of mine since then. Just let it go bro. I don't care, and neither does anyone else. But it that is the best attempt you have to refute my credibility than i pity you.

Ps. You might not want to avoid insults in post where you tell someone else to be less disrespectful .Sigh, at least im not making absolute claims on your personality based on a single thing that happening almost 2 years ago now am I? Seems like you didn't even understand the post I made on the forums back then, and still don't understand now. I never called you out of your name, and nor do I attack your credibility on a consistant basis, about something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.You made a post about how uncredible I am, but never attempted to provide a counter argument, hence AD HOMINEM attack.

#inb4 massive QQ response

Would stop this senseless argument now?

Any statement about which class is the most OP in any given situation ist not legit if the person has not experienced absolute end-game content. I don't know how and why I should explain this again and again and again...

If one is a decent geared player with lets say a +12 weap and +10 gears (which is pretty much average these days) then they have no say in finding the most OP class. No say at all. Simply due to the lack of experience. That's another reason why Free2Play games suck cuz they blurr the vision of balance via gears.

This game is pretty much balanced tbh. But it is only at endgame with absolutely maxed out stuff and the most important thing: Anyone needs to be equal gear-wise. then and ONLY then you can make assumptions on which is the best class for any given situation.

Most of the current arguments in this threads are easily to be identified as such that are not based on equal end-game experience or they just fought against morons (I'm serious here).

Another thing that qualifies ppl to make assumptions of that kind is if they at least know the basics of any class (I would make it a must to know each class perfectly but oh well...).

Taking all this into account I can say that most of you guys shouldn't bother spreading their opinions all over this thread simply because they lack the requirements mentioned above.

So the conclusion is and anyone that tried those scenarios will have no other choice than to agree (I know lots of ppl do, but w/e): Barbs are the strongest class in 1on1s.

This has been true since to introductions of genies. Thats over 5 years now.

I have to agree that pre-primal Wizards used to be the second best class but imho I'd say that wizards and sins share spot number 2 on the list of the best 1on1 classes. The only reason why sins are at 2 is Tidal in addition to their new gained skill dmg. Lets be honest. Without tidal they would be a joke against any class that got decent CC skills themselves.

On third place I would put ANY other class. They all got so many pros and cons against the various classes that I really think they differ only slightly in means of 1on1 efficiency.

Don't get me wrong. The difference between all places is not as huge as you might think. In the end it all revolves about your fighting habits and the preperations you make. The right timing of def charms, apo, dif. weapons can make a much bigger difference then gear or classes could make on their own. thats why end-game PvP is sooo extremely skill-dependend.

I really like that alot. Especially in selfbuffed situations because you can always see a steady degrade in skill when defense rises.

Any class can kill a Barb if they are better players. Any class can kill a sin if they are better players (although I agree that you might need to prepare special stuff in order to counter the DD with any class =P).

The only difference between the classes of PWI would be a Survival/killing-chance index. So it is kinda obvious why barbs are the no.1 now, right? They can tank the dmg of any class and have the means to be able to kill any class without too much of a fuzz. That's all.

ENDING IN SHORT:

If you put more effort into this game and think about all the game mechanics you will most likely always win over anyone who doesnt do the same thing. the class doesn't matter unless you find a worthy opponent. BTW: This can be applied to any aspect of our life. A main reason why it is very well possible to figure ppl out through an online game but that goes way too far for this topic.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Your ego being too big to admit defeat and go sz/call backup when confronted with a full buffed sin in 1v1 doesn't mean sins are OP. The game is balanced around being self buffed, so of course full buffed classes are going to cause problem: but that's buffs, not classes.

If you're going to pull the PvP server card, then you're going to have to do more than 1v1.

Regardless of server you shouldn't need to call backup for just one person. Against any other class you can simply pop your own buff pills and proceed to fight them. You can try to lock them down and purge them while they attempt to do the same to you. You can't do that to an Assassin. Full buffed assassins basically auto-win 1v1s because you can't get rid of their buffs effectively.

You shouldn't need to gank one person. The fact that you're telling him to do just that says something.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

#inb4 massive QQ response

First off, it wasnt personal attack. I gave you logical reasoning why I dont consider you to have any skill with this class whatsoever. It had nothing to do with your personality, all it had to do was with your actions(posts).

Easier than quoting:
http://vvcap.net/db/nPsq-reFsCg-Pnt9VBSt.htp

You nowhere deny his assumption, only go on how sin is a 1vs1 class, which to me seems like agreeing with him. And going back in the conversation its fairly obvious thats what the comment regarding 1vs1 class, ability to beat everyone. This is what I believe you call me for using strawman, which I believe I sufficiently explained.

You can call sin 1vs1 class, I can call it chair for all I want, why should such definitions have any weight in balancing the class? You seem to be missing that fairly obvious point.

You are also guilty of plain faulty logic regarding it. Sin is considered 1vs1 class in "best PvP class" thread, where people name classes they believe to be strong in 1vs1 situation. Yet you argue like its some reasoning for it. Said posts you pulled are a consequence of balance in the game, not a vote to defend it.

The reasons why sins are way too powerful have already been brought up in this thread multiple times. But main points are: Tidal, Primal skill(s), zerk crits, CC, Chi gain, stealth, no serious drawbacks really. I am not going to write several paragraphs on them when everything necessary is already provided by others.

You claim a strawman but I only repeated exactly what you said, maybe not the exact same words but sentiment:
http://vvcap.net/db/skwkUEjiSj9bYoAeA0Yg.htp

If there was fallacy its not proving it, though reason for it was the lack of feeling needing to as I do consider said statement just that stupid. The conversation even continued after it by Zan least, which again is enough for anybody who can connect the dots. Also, dont move the goalpost. Nobody claimed anywhere it was impossible, only extremely unlikely, which makes the word plenty ludicrous. But why its still hard/unlikely?

1. Sin has to be CCd or it will simply kite the duration of downtime on tidal.

2. Stealth + delay between clicking stealth pot and it activating allowing sin time to kite.

3. Only so many classes who has access to purge weps(BMs, archers, sins) and 2 classes with purge skill, veno & barb. Veno purge isnt even hard to resist with spark/genie/apoth as its fairly easy to see it coming, granted veno might just bait those things. Barb purge is 20% with 30s CD.

4. Massive evasion of sins making it even harder to land those purges/CC skills.

5. Sin isnt just a chi totem you can smack but a player with wide variety of CC skills themselves. Good sin can lock most classes down for majority of the time tidal will be down.

I made assessment if I found conversations with you in any way worth it and reasons behind it as Zan was bout to be dragged, like I have seem to been dragged yet again, in one pointless conversation simply because you are unable to admit being wrong. You were new player with R9 if my memory serves correct, least you claimed to have it. The few million of coins in comparison felt bout as ludicrous as your comments bout purging a sin do this time. So if you were as adamant on as idiotic point as a new player, why would you be any better person to have conversation with when you have gained experience and are more confident with your abilities? Logic would suggest its even more difficult to persuade you, no matter how ludicrously wrong you might be.

Ps. As for personal attacks, every single one of the ones you consider such have been result of logical arguments. They have also been relevant to the responses they were part of. What you do is the kind of "#inb4 massive QQ response" comments, which are only attacks my credibility w/o any reasoning behind it. But no, I doubt you are capable of understanding the difference. And yes, that does pass over the line to personal attack while I honestly believe it to be simple truth.

@Joe: I agree on lot of points, though Id say you are "blinded" for playing a barb. 1vs1, yes, I would place barb as top too but reason lot place sin is the difference how quickly sin kills them compared to barb. Most accept they cant kill barb alone and kite them for better or worse, never really experiencing them while sins are far harder to avoid. And it might a good argument too to place sin on top, despite agreeing with you on barb being more likely to win a smacking contest between the 2 classes.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Watch Transcend's old vids, he did 1v1 self buffed, so what are you babbling about?

Fighting 1v1 full buffed is so dumb, all you deal is **** damage, then try to purge because even an archer can have like 30k pdef now. Fully buffed seeker whew!

You want to waste 10min of your life trying to roll purge be my guest, or you can try to break through 2-3 layers of pdefs rofl. "Rules and regulations" hahahahaha...it's common sense.

Okay so, you're in Primal World doing your daily in the open map.
I am a fully buffed assassin and I attack you.
I refuse to leave the area, and I prevent you from doing your daily.
What do you do?

If you call back-up, I will only attack you, nobody else, and then stealth again.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Regardless of server you shouldn't need to call backup for just one person. Against any other class you can simply pop your own buff pills and proceed to fight them. You can try to lock them down and purge them while they attempt to do the same to you. You can't do that to an Assassin. Full buffed assassins basically auto-win 1v1s because you can't get rid of their buffs effectively.

You shouldn't need to gank one person. The fact that you're telling him to do just that says something.

Except its not "one person" if they're full buffed. Being full buffed means they're assisted by multiple classes, and should be treated as such by retaliating with multiple classes.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Okay so, you're in Primal World doing your daily in the open map.
I am a fully buffed assassin and I attack you.
I refuse to leave the area, and I prevent you from doing your daily.
What do you do?

If you call back-up, I will only attack you, nobody else, and then stealth again.

Assuming I don't have the ability to purge, I will call backup.

I kite you and let my back up kill you while you fail to hate target me.

Or I can just come full buffed and attack you too. You're definitely not gonna have time to purge me when I have backup.

Or if we're equally geared, then I most likely don't even need to do the above to kill you when I out number you.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Or it just means they have Spirits of Defense and Offense. The result is the same, but they don't need other people to be nearly fully buffed. Oh, and they can refresh their buffs should the unlikely event that they're purged occur.

Like I said, that's a problem with the pot, not the class.

If the sin bails as soon as they get purged, then you're defeating them much much easier than if they stayed. The main issue with pots is the ability to rebuff. Sure, it takes longer to purge a sin, but without the pot all fights can come down to being self buffed which is no longer a problem.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Okay so, you're in Primal World doing your daily in the open map.
I am a fully buffed assassin and I attack you.
I refuse to leave the area, and I prevent you from doing your daily.
What do you do?

If you call back-up, I will only attack you, nobody else, and then stealth again.

A "1v1" means both players agree to fight each other to the death without anyone else interfering; both players would relog to get rid of outside buffs to save time, especially if both players have endgame gears.

If you randomly attack someone, that person hasn't agreed to anything. Maybe that person doesn't feel like spending time fighting a fully buffed endgame sin. Like Eoria said, one can go afk, or like ZSW said, one can call backup and gank you to death.

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Or maybe, classes should have some degree of balance and there shouldn't be a single class which dominates all others. Then, it would be realistic for one to make an attempt at beating their similarly geared opponent before continuing on their journey.

This game is balanced. At end-game. With self buffs only.

This is a Pay2Win game so ofc it is dumb but logical that things even out at the highest gear lvl. Anyone that had the chance to roll on a retail server would agree.

the image that this game is heavily unbalanced is also heavily influenced by the unability to play by the majority of the community. There are single, great players that have a certain class they know how to play perfectly. If they manage to kill redicolous much ppl even with same gears then it's most likely that they are just better players.

PPL should stop charging that much into this game if they wanna be under the best payers and instead do some research and yes that involves gaining experience in end-game scenarios.

-snip because you shouldn't do it regardless-

Note: I can say it a billion times. Don't compare sins...easily killing ppl due to their +12 weap and maxed DMG output to classes with just average gear refines (yes even +10 is too low most of the time). this is the reason that this game seems to be unbalanced and why it evens out at endgame. When anything is +12 you have a nice balance between DMG output and DMG absorbtion.

Go ahead ppl and test it out. anytime.

In terms of tankiness a lot of endgame classes take half a squad to kill if they are fully buffed.

Mingkeey - Lost City wrote: »

knowing how every little asian kids loves this class lolol

LOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL HAHAHAHAHAHA TAKE THAT TSYREN, ZSW AND SKAI GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGb:laughb:laughb:laugh

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

LOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL HAHAHAHAHAHA TAKE THAT TSYREN, ZSW AND SKAI GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGb:laughb:laughb:laugh

Omg so racist lmao.

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

You love it bby (P.S I am saddened to hear about the sudden end between you and a certain Australian lass even though I'm about 10 months late gg).

What are you, irish now? Oh lawdy