Defense Lvl's And Damage reduction Question

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver · June 2014

Hi, i dont normally do this but i was wondering if i could have some input from you people.

So my question is, Lets say i have 25 defense lvl's on a single piece of gear, Now is that Greater than having "Reduce phy damage taken by 5 %" along with +288 phy res? What i mean is, is the "Reduce physical dmg taken by 5 %" plus the 288 phy res Better than defense lvl +25? Which piece of gear will make me take less damage? Theoretically.

NescauBall - Archosaur · June 2014

We need to know what is your current Physical def.

But Im willing to bet the def level is just better

opkossy · June 2014

Short answer: It depends.

Long answer: This matter based more on what you already have defensively. A level 1 character with the +phys defense/reduce physical damage against other level 1s, for example, will find that as much better than defense level. On the flip side, some endgame player with like... 40k pdef and R9 third cast will find the huge defense level boost as far more advantageous.

Overall, though, if you're looking at gear past... like... level 40 or so? +25 defense levels is extreme enough of an example to almost always be superior to +300 pdef and the reduce physical damage bonus. Especially since defense levels work on magic too. For the easiest way to check, just let yourself get beat up with and without an o'malley's blessing and see the difference those 15 defense levels cause.

Mosz - Heavens Tear · June 2014

http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Damage
and pwcalc.com
and do some maths with your own stats to figure it out

theoretically and practically it not only depends on your current stats but also your opponent

if you have 0 def lvls adding 25 will yeild 23% less damage against 0 atk lvl, if you have 100 adding 25 will only yield 12% less damage

if your oponent has 200 atk lvls (common end game sins) and you have 0 def then adding 25 def lvl.. yields a lil over 8% less damage taken, if you had 100 def lvls already the reduction would be 12.5%

if you have 0% phys save 5% more will yield 5% less phys damage...if you have 90% then 5% more should yield 50% less damage

also are you assuming this is NOW? or when we will have lvl 10 primal passives? that 288 pdef buffed can be 1000 pdef, now if you only have 0 pdef 1000 more would be 20% less damage, if you already have 20k would be 6% or so

now what is your opponent? do they have the ability to reduce your pdef or your def lvl?

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver · June 2014

Okay so to clear it up, im 89 rebirth one cleric, full Rank 8 recast gear, With No buffs, Just logging In the game daily, I have 3.5k Phy res. With My Buff(which pretty much is always on sense im a cleric) I have 5.2k phy res. This is with all the gear. So i guess adding, One of my gear gives me the stat +7% physical Resistance. the Rest of my gear, cape+helm+wep, Gives me a total of the Different stat, "Physical Damage reduced" And it adds up to Reduced by 11%, In short, phy dmg reduced by 11%. My wep gives me 5% Out of that 11%, i think i should Reforge the wep to get +30 def lvls or More on the wep Which is very possible from pwi database. Is this a smart move?

Also, I want to compare the different bounus to, Which may sound sad, or Funny, But to the average common player who walks around with +70 attack lvls, 30 from jones and 40 from the g16.

ps: sorry for saying the same thing over again, By no means am i a regular forum user and i wanted to be as clear as possible because i've been known to be a bad explainer lol

PS-S: i Always use the omally's blessing and my gear gives me a defense lvl +8 bonus, plus i have the attendance ring, Is included in the gear i mentioned above.

Longknife - Harshlands · June 2014

I sat down and gave this a good hard look one day, but I haven't played in months so I'm afraid my info will be very very vague.

Basically, physical/magical resistance is vastly superior to defense levels until you start getting high defenses; it wasn't even close when I tested. It's been a while, but I wanna say 1% reduction amounted to about ~280 less damage with endgame gear standards (r9rr or N3 and all the typical orns and armors you'd expect) whereas 1 defense level was giving out ~20 less damage. Eventually your character just hits a point where 1% extra reduction is too costly to achieve and so it's time to get the defense levels instead. For example a Psychic would definitely prefer garnet gems to JOSD for further physical reduction unless we're talking absolute end-game gear (even then, Psy has no pdef), but if you wanted to take less magic damage then you'd quickly want to grab Jades. Best example I can give is I seem to recall coordinating with a barb to try and figure out when the cut-off came and when it's time for Jades rather than vit stones (had always wondered if a combo of the two is the most ideal), and I -think- I recall advising leaving one piece pure vit stone just because the resistances gained were still significant enough to outperform pure defense levels. After that, Defense levels would start to out-do vit stones for damage reduced. Another piece with vit stones would've been "acceptable" in the sense that a character that isn't super end-game could still benefit from it, but a character that was end-game wouldn't. I think that was the conclusion, anyways. xP Been some months...

But it's also worth mentioning that simply because attack levels and defense levels can only be countered by each other, you never want to fully neglect them. I would argue Jades are as valuable as they are not because the defense levels themselves are that insanely overpowered, but because Jades are like -the- only way to get excess defense levels and defense levels are the only way to continue improving defense once your mdef/pdef starts "capping." I feel the community has misunderstood and associated defense levels with being OP, when the reality is that most players running around with defense levels and Jades ALREADY have "capped" resistances and it's specifically that combination that makes them so tanky, not the Jades alone. Proof of this is what happens when an archer gets purged: they easily start taking craptons more than another purged class would (cept Sin, if you could manage to purge it), and why? Because LA's base resistance is balls. It specializes in neither and sure enough it shows the moment a purge hits. Comparatively, if you purge a seeker with endgame ornaments and he loses his defense level buff, yes of course he takes more damage, but he's not taking craptons like an archer would.

Overall my advice would be to get yourself a solid base pdef/mdef (your strongest type will take care of itself, your weakest you wanna help up) and then worry about investing into defense levels.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver · June 2014

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

I sat down and gave this a good hard look one day, but I haven't played in months so I'm afraid my info will be very very vague.

Basically, physical/magical resistance is vastly superior to defense levels until you start getting high defenses; it wasn't even close when I tested. It's been a while, but I wanna say 1% reduction amounted to about ~280 less damage with endgame gear standards (r9rr or N3 and all the typical orns and armors you'd expect) whereas 1 defense level was giving out ~20 less damage. Eventually your character just hits a point where 1% extra reduction is too costly to achieve and so it's time to get the defense levels instead. For example a Psychic would definitely prefer garnet gems to JOSD for further physical reduction unless we're talking absolute end-game gear (even then, Psy has no pdef), but if you wanted to take less magic damage then you'd quickly want to grab Jades. Best example I can give is I seem to recall coordinating with a barb to try and figure out when the cut-off came and when it's time for Jades rather than vit stones (had always wondered if a combo of the two is the most ideal), and I -think- I recall advising leaving one piece pure vit stone just because the resistances gained were still significant enough to outperform pure defense levels. After that, Defense levels would start to out-do vit stones for damage reduced. Another piece with vit stones would've been "acceptable" in the sense that a character that isn't super end-game could still benefit from it, but a character that was end-game wouldn't. I think that was the conclusion, anyways. xP Been some months...

But it's also worth mentioning that simply because attack levels and defense levels can only be countered by each other, you never want to fully neglect them. I would argue Jades are as valuable as they are not because the defense levels themselves are that insanely overpowered, but because Jades are like -the- only way to get excess defense levels and defense levels are the only way to continue improving defense once your mdef/pdef starts "capping." I feel the community has misunderstood and associated defense levels with being OP, when the reality is that most players running around with defense levels and Jades ALREADY have "capped" resistances and it's specifically that combination that makes them so tanky, not the Jades alone. Proof of this is what happens when an archer gets purged: they easily start taking craptons more than another purged class would (cept Sin, if you could manage to purge it), and why? Because LA's base resistance is balls. It specializes in neither and sure enough it shows the moment a purge hits. Comparatively, if you purge a seeker with endgame ornaments and he loses his defense level buff, yes of course he takes more damage, but he's not taking craptons like an archer would.

Overall my advice would be to get yourself a solid base pdef/mdef (your strongest type will take care of itself, your weakest you wanna help up) and then worry about investing into defense levels.

See, this makes me wanna think twice now. I Kind of suspected that about the pure phy res stat already. i mean, i could always test it. But i got pretty god stats (or at least i THINK i do) on my current wep already which are : Physical damage reduced by 5%, Physical res +288, Magic+14 and Infinite. If i **** it up by reforging it, i dont think it'll be any Re-do's of that combo nation lol, However, What if i can get better stats? What if i get defense lvls +25, +5, +5, +5 in some rare roll. Im also a defensive player. i care Next to nothing about How much damage i deal, or how much other people deal, i know i will never have enough $ to compete so i just try and focus on staying alive, and im in the process of new ways, because the G16 phy weps still hurt me a great deal, and i've done all i can with my gear, im full r8r +5 with acceptable stats on all 4 pieces, So i was wondering if a wep with 30+ defense lvls will help me stay alive, along with using Iorn heart lol

thank you for taking the time to type that ^^

Longknife - Harshlands · June 2014

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

thank you for taking the time to type that ^^

Dats nothin', I once wrote a 20 page essay on why butter is better than margarine.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver · June 2014

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Dats nothin', I once wrote a 20 page essay on why butter is better than margarine.

I use oil myself. Pause.

Eoria - Harshlands · June 2014

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But i got pretty god stats (or at least i THINK i do) on my current wep already which are : Physical damage reduced by 5%, Physical res +288, Magic+14 and Infinite. If i **** it up by reforging it, i dont think it'll be any Re-do's of that combo nation lol,

Use Spirit of the Forge. You'll need Chienkun stones though.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver · June 2014

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Use Spirit of the Forge. You'll need Chienkun stones though.

OOOOOO yes! i forgot to ask about that. But what exactly is spirit of forge? If i take my gear there with all the required mats, and the required cienkuns, Can i decided the stats on the weapon manually?

Eoria - Harshlands · June 2014

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

OOOOOO yes! i forgot to ask about that. But what exactly is spirit of forge? If i take my gear there with all the required mats, and the required cienkuns, Can i decided the stats on the weapon manually?

No. You just get to decide whether to keep the current roll or get the new roll.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear · June 2014

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okay so to clear it up, im 89 rebirth one cleric, full Rank 8 recast gear, With No buffs, Just logging In the game daily, I have 3.5k Phy res. With My Buff(which pretty much is always on sense im a cleric) I have 5.2k phy res. This is with all the gear. So i guess adding, One of my gear gives me the stat +7% physical Resistance. the Rest of my gear, cape+helm+wep, Gives me a total of the Different stat, "Physical Damage reduced" And it adds up to Reduced by 11%, In short, phy dmg reduced by 11%. My wep gives me 5% Out of that 11%, i think i should Reforge the wep to get +30 def lvls or More on the wep Which is very possible from pwi database. Is this a smart move?

Also, I want to compare the different bounus to, Which may sound sad, or Funny, But to the average common player who walks around with +70 attack lvls, 30 from jones and 40 from the g16.

ps: sorry for saying the same thing over again, By no means am i a regular forum user and i wanted to be as clear as possible because i've been known to be a bad explainer lol

PS-S: i Always use the omally's blessing and my gear gives me a defense lvl +8 bonus, plus i have the attendance ring, Is included in the gear i mentioned above.

Pulling off some numbers first,
(i) Your 'Base Equipment pdef' = (5.2-3.5)/60%=2.83k base pdef,
(ii) Which gives a total pdef multiplier (with gear & basic buff) = 5.2/2.83=1.835x
(iii) Removing the 288 pdef addon will push your pdef down to 5200-(288*1.835)=4.67k pdef

Against a lvl100 opponent,
(iv) At 4.67k pdef, %physical reduction= 4670/((40*100) +4670-25)=54.020% (2.175x more survival index)
(v) At 5.2k pdef, %physical reduction= 5200/((40*100) +5200-25)=56.676% (2.308x more survival index)
(vi) So, the pdef addon alone, increases your survival index by (2.308-2.175)/(2.175)=6.1%~
(vii) And the 'Reduce Physical damage taken'+5%, is 5% increase in survival index.
-where survival index refers to amount of raw damage that you can take before you die-

with a base def lvl of 24,
(viii) an extra 25def lvl will increase survival index by 20%~ish, against an opponent with 70 attack levels.
(ix) or 10%~ish, against an opponent with 125 attack levels, which is what most s3r9 has.
-or nothing, against an opponent with more than 125 attack level, who will likely just 1or2shot you-

Now, if you count on some decent addons, r8r with defence level will definitely outscale what you currently have.
Defence level also reduce magic damage.
It is generally much easier to gain pdef from other pieces of gear, like ornaments, cards, nuema, meridian, shards. End-game casters can reach 10k+ base equipment pdef.

My personal recommendation:
Will it worth the reroll? Maybe not... YET... What you currently has is still a decent roll. Rerolling can be tedious and an expensive process. It might take 10~20 rerolls, and 10+ hones in order to get a decent roll, (23-25 def lvl, + any 3 useful addons). I think there will be a lot of other things that will be more worth upgrading first, before the r8r weapon. Nonetheless, if you are planning to keep the r8r as your endgame weapon, rerolling is inevitable, because the "Infinite' addon is just substandard.

----
All formula can be found in pwi-wiki. I can breakdown any specific formula, if needed.

Defense Lvl's And Damage reduction Question

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