Stealth
PREIIST - Morai
Posts: 41 Arc User
I was really interested why Assasins got Sharp Observer skill ( the skill that raises your stealth detection) since we cant see at anyway archer who same lvl as us and goes stealth,on the other side he can see us by using pots ,by my research i didnt find any aoe on genie whitch would be made by not having a target ! So basicly if archer stealths vs a sin ,sin cant do a shet except jsut w8ing him to pop out again !
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by PREIIST - Morai on
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Pretty much.
However, Archers have no vertical movement speed while in stealth. Fly 34 meters higher than a double jump, and the archer will be forced to leave stealth if he actually wants to kill you.
70 meter from the archer's position, with an additional 40 meter in the same direction every 35 seconds will also prevent him from attacking you from stealth.Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer
All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw0070 -
Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »Pretty much.
However, Archers have no vertical movement speed while in stealth. Fly 34 meters higher than a double jump, and the archer will be forced to leave stealth if he actually wants to kill you.
70 meter from the archer's position, with an additional 40 meter in the same direction every 35 seconds will also prevent him from attacking you from stealth.
Tottaly agreed but my point was ,arent sins supose to be the ultimate stealth class? its kinda nerved if we cant see other classes and they all can see us ,like that having stealth or not makes no difference,like that 3x skills useless in skill bar[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Detect pots came after stealth was a huge thing to correct that nobody could see sins period that were near or above their level outside of other sins... and that when a level 105 sin used shadow escape not even another sin could see them.
Since sins already had passive stealth detection, they were unable to use detect pots (cause seriously having 60/61 detect levels kinda stupidly defeats the point of the passives) but Sharp Observer didn't get any sort of an update to allow two equal level sins using level 11 shadow escape to see each other because.... reasons.
On that note, a stealthed archer is not very mobile, so I wouldn't call the fact you can't "see" them as them being better at stealth since you can't see an equally leveled sin either and THEY would have much more freedom in stealth, both in skills they can use while stealthed AND freedom of movement.(Insert fancy image here)
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Detect pots came after stealth was a huge thing to correct that nobody could see sins period that were near or above their level outside of other sins... and that when a level 105 sin used shadow escape not even another sin could see them.
Since sins already had passive stealth detection, they were unable to use detect pots (cause seriously having 60/61 detect levels kinda stupidly defeats the point of the passives) but Sharp Observer didn't get any sort of an update to allow two equal level sins using level 11 shadow escape to see each other because.... reasons.
On that note, a stealthed archer is not very mobile, so I wouldn't call the fact you can't "see" them as them being better at stealth since you can't see an equally leveled sin either and THEY would have much more freedom in stealth, both in skills they can use while stealthed AND freedom of movement.
While this is true, 30+m range is a adavantage, but i would like to see either an update to sharp observer or a new skill that allows sins to see other sins, even if its only for a short amount of time. It's only fair, since other classes have such skills, and mystics have an aoe stealth canceling skill.0 -
PREIIST - Morai wrote: »Tottaly agreed but my point was ,arent sins supose to be the ultimate stealth class? its kinda nerved if we cant see other classes and they all can see us ,like that having stealth or not makes no difference,like that 3x skills useless in skill bar
Considering sins have no drawback and unlimited stealth, they do have the ultimate stealth. I always disliked that part about stealth, for me it should have been something unable to be maintained indefinately (like consume chi over time rather then mp) while having no pots or skills on any other class but sins.
Seeing a sin requires a pot with a cd and a delay on activation. You can't say it doesn't matter. Nobody can maintain sin visibility a whole fight/nw map/tw.
The thing that sins can't use the +31 detection pots is weird. It only matters vs archers though, where sins already have so much edges over the opponent that I can't really see it being an issue other then the illogical-disturbing factor.0 -
um pwi like to do this kind stuff
venos started with purge now many melee weapon have purge
bm was SOPUSED TO be number1 stunner
sin come out with better stun capability and best anti stun defence
pwi was much more fair before assasin come out
fair dont exist in pwi deal with it0 -
HeavenxDoom - Lost City wrote: »um pwi like to do this kind stuff
venos started with purge now many melee weapon have purge
bm was SOPUSED TO be number1 stunner
sin come out with better stun capability and best anti stun defence
pwi was much more fair before assasin come out
fair dont exist in pwi deal with it
I dont understad , the only Thing i see OP in sins is tidal , we dont have ANY other defence that cant be countered except that one b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I've never heard of a game where the stealth class has the best detection. Being stealthy has nothing to do with having good eyesight. Also if you're struggling against an archer as a sin you're very bad. That's one of the most one-sided match ups in the game.[sigpic][/sigpic]
PWI Calculators - aster.ohmydays.net/pw0 -
What Asterelle said, I myself feel in the tips of my fingers how Assassins are stronger in a 1v1 match-up vs an archer. Some people say Alpha male is able to knock down invisibility, you should try it, an AoE vs NPC/mob do also work, just have in mind: Archer won't go much farther away from where it was before stealthing. b:laugh You can use Shadow Walk, if the archer uses the stealth APO, you'll have spent a shadow walk in trade of his Apo cooldown PLUS Ataraxia, GG.[S.E.V.C.H.E.N.K.O]
Synthetic Electronic Variant Calibrated for Hazardous Exploration, Nullification and Kamikaze Observation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »What Asterelle said, I myself feel in the tips of my fingers how Assassins are stronger in a 1v1 match-up vs an archer. Some people say Alpha male is able to knock down invisibility, you should try it, an AoE vs NPC/mob do also work, just have in mind: Archer won't go much farther away from where it was before stealthing. b:laugh You can use Shadow Walk, if the archer uses the stealth APO, you'll have spent a shadow walk in trade of his Apo cooldown PLUS Ataraxia, GG.
>Alpha Male
>PvP genie
You may choose one.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks to the beautiful and talanted Zheii for the sigb:dirty
youtube.com/ZanryuPWI
youtube.com/ZanryuGaming
I read the forums naked.0 -
b:laugh
well sin still can see another sin in purple\mass stealth so you should get that going for you which is nice
but sin is not allowed to QQ about anything in the game atm,
being epicly broken overpowered in terms of damage output,
being able to dish out at least 3,20x the damage done by any other class with a single skill,
and survivability,
being able to outtank even barbs thanks ability to not get purged or debuffed or w.e. + stealths + deaden nervesmypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »I've never heard of a game where the stealth class has the best detection. Being stealthy has nothing to do with having good eyesight. Also if you're struggling against an archer as a sin you're very bad. That's one of the most one-sided match ups in the game.
I love the way you said it not even knowing what i am talkign about here , i fight those fights on special terms like :
1.Both are full buffed , its full archer advantage here
2.In case of purge he goes stealth where i cant see him ,and if he used pot in between,he just w8 2 min and rebuff and then we engage again , again full archer advantage and thats why i asked about it here .
3.his gears are full deity ,12 refine,nw etc same as mine but josd so equal here
4.He never will fight self buffs , that fight last from 1min15sec to 2 min max
In fights with thsoe terms mentioned above ,it takes a bit longer than expected to kill etc ,so i asked about opinion of people about the stealth detection thingy.So next time before mouthing who is fail and who is pro get to know the situation first.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
PREIIST - Morai wrote: »I love the way you said it not even knowing what i am talkign about here , i fight those fights on special terms like :
1.Both are full buffed , its full archer advantage here
2.In case of purge he goes stealth where i cant see him ,and if he used pot in between,he just w8 2 min and rebuff and then we engage again , again full archer advantage and thats why i asked about it here .
3.his gears are full deity ,12 refine,nw etc same as mine but josd so equal here
4.He never will fight self buffs , that fight last from 1min15sec to 2 min max
In fights with thsoe terms mentioned above ,it takes a bit longer than expected to kill etc ,so i asked about opinion of people about the stealth detection thingy.So next time before mouthing who is fail and who is pro get to know the situation first.
As an archer (and sin), let me reply this one.
1. this would be different every time, not every archer has an advantage. Also you should know the damage dealing isn't broken. It's the - read your- gameplay that gives the advantage (ok, the laggy connection sometimes will make it a disadvantage).
2. Here is only an advantage for archers to jump to the left or right side - a free Morai skill. You should still be possible to find the archer and hope he/she don't have a purge skill on the weapon.
3. Both light gear. No advantage when everything - even the +12 - is the same. As a sin you should only hope that the archer have less Dex and no purge on weapon. If lucky you got an archer that used points in Mag. Lately I see many archers using claws. They have less Dex and more Str. Kill them would be a lot easier but - also - could take some time.
4. Because I solo much (... should change this to 'others doing fc while i'm questing) I noticed the high damage without any buffs used. But this is against mobs and Smooth Antoine quest. In PK mode it would take longer - if you don't die - to kill archers if they move a lot or take their distance. Higher distance means more damage to you - for at least what I've seen.
Now about the Stealth. Without the free Morai skills Archers can't do much. Walking seems to be 1 pixel every second, lol. When playing on archer I only use stealth if I land in a very very wrong place. It will keep me save of getting killed. As for a Sin - when PK'ing an archer - it's fun to mess around: jump in, hit, run, jump and hit again. Most archers still got the disadvantage that they'll have to wait until 'a shot is fired'. In other words: archers want to shoot an arrow 1 time but pwi shows they shoot another arrow. Try to watch their gameplay before you attack. You should notice their aps and then can decide if you go for the kill.0 -
_Grandpa - Raging Tide wrote: »1. this would be different every time, not every archer has an advantage. Also you should know the damage dealing isn't broken. It's the - read your- gameplay that gives the advantage (ok, the laggy connection sometimes will make it a disadvantage).
2. Here is only an advantage for archers to jump to the left or right side - a free Morai skill. You should still be possible to find the archer and hope he/she don't have a purge skill on the weapon.
3. Both light gear. No advantage when everything - even the +12 - is the same. As a sin you should only hope that the archer have less Dex and no purge on weapon.
Just my two cents but you wrote twice about "if no purge"
He's talking about two toons with endgame gears, so obviously the archer has a purge bow. I assume this is why he's saying the archer got an advantage with full buffs as well because a fight between an archer with full buffs versus any other class full buffs will fast become a fight between a full buffs archer and a purged opponent (even if sins have tidal at least)~ Sage Mystic 105-105-105 ~
~ Sage Sin 103-103-102 ~
~ Sage vita Barb 103-102-101 ~
~ Sage BM 102-101 ~ Demon Archer 102 ~
~ Sage Cleric 102 ~ Demon Wizard 101 ~
~ Sage Seeker 101 ~ Sage Psy 101 ~
~ Sage Heavy Veno 101 ~ Demon Storm 9X ~ Dusk 6x ~
Started playing this game in 2007 on Oracle (PW-MY) : Demon MG 101 - Sage EP 99 - WF 890 -
PREIIST - Morai wrote: »
1.Both are full buffed , its full archer advantage here
2.In case of purge he goes stealth where i cant see him ,and if he used pot in between,he just w8 2 min and rebuff and then we engage again , again full archer advantage and thats why i asked about it here .
.
wait wat, since when this is an advantage for the archer?
when actually you both can use purge bows with the same % to proc but you have sage tidal and archer doesnt?
cmon manmypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg0 -
- Sin does not need purge to win this matchup by spamming Elimination and 6 different kinds of control skills.
- Purge doesn't even work against any of the OP sin buffs.
- Purge was also nerfed hard by the unpurgeable defense passives.
A post new horizons sin struggling 1v1 against an equal gear archer should just quit the game.[sigpic][/sigpic]
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If i may add a few more things, pwi evolved against archers(my opinion) you have apoth that give you full buffs. So say an archer manages a purge (which the rate is extremly low compaied to any other ability for end game) you can just use your apoth bam buffs again, then like the archer stated above me sins have an aps skill and to be honest i believe sins are broken due the fact that a 105 barb with 50k or so phy def tells me that a sin took off 48k damage with one skill...
sorry for wasting your time but a sin Vs an archer with the current game archer will have a tough time with them0 -
wow XD we have a forum, cool place here :P i suppose the conditions metioned is about me, since we always end up fighting, i remember our fights that lasted over 30 minutes, even one close to a hour. Being the cat-and-mouse game as it is (rendering in stealth when purged + chaning/kiting when tidals is gone etc) we both know it only takes 1 little mistake, or luck on purge to end the fight.
Without having the option to go in stealth i would have not much left to do after being purged, even tho its hard going stealth in the first place since it can be canceled and purge takes away any antistuns to.
Personally i think our movement-restricted stealth is a perfect thing to balance out between other classes. b:dirty
btw why the hell it shows iam lvl 101 here while iam 105x3 ? xdddd0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »- Sin does not need purge to win this matchup by spamming Elimination and 6 different kinds of control skills. Not every sin has elimination, and the answer to most of a sins control skills as they can be countered by WoG.
- Purge doesn't even work against any of the OP sin buffs. Last time i checked tidal isnt 100% and purge can still make it through. This sentence is BS and you know it.
- Purge was also nerfed hard by the unpurgeable defense passives.
A post new horizons sin struggling 1v1 against an equal gear archer should just quit the game.
I do agree to your last two pionts however. I win against archers that out gear me on a regular basis, however most of them seem to have a +12 wep and +7-+10 gear. IF I can avoid getting hit, then there is a chance of winning.0 -
[QUOTE=DionDagger - Dreamweaver;21610841 Last time i checked tidal isnt 100% and purge can still make it through. This sentence is BS and you know it.
no this is bull****,
66% chance on top of 20% chance to proc its like 8% chance each hit, you ll need to land like what 12 auto atks to purge statistically
but what the sin will do? afk tank the hits w\o doing nothing? while he has the best dps burst and the best CCs?mypers.pw/1.7/#123510
mypers.pw/1.7/#123524
i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg0 -
After WoG a sin is supposed to do Throatcut. WoG is a 30 second cooldown and throatcut is 8 seconds so throatcut is always available and goes through WoG. Although they have the same chi cost, chi is much cheaper to use as a sin so it's worth it.DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »Not every sin has elimination, and the answer to most of a sins control skills as they can be countered by WoG.
..
I do agree to your last two pionts however. I win against archers that out gear me on a regular basis, however most of them seem to have a +12 wep and +7-+10 gear. IF I can avoid getting hit, then there is a chance of winning.
Tidal Protection can't be purged. Deaden Nerves can't be purged. I don't even think Chill of the deep can be purged. After that 33% chance of the purge actually "working" sins are left with all of their OP defensive buffs. Those buffs should all be purgeable. When an archer is purged they are left with nothing at all like most other non-fish classes.Last time i checked tidal isnt 100% and purge can still make it through. This sentence is BS and you know it.[sigpic][/sigpic]
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DionDagger wrote:Not every sin has elimination
Any sin worth a damn at this point has Elimination.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I
Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0 -
Not necessarily. Throatcut without the freeze is meant as a repulsive skill, kind of like getting players to run away in a certain direction like mobs do. However with WoG, the goal of the archer is usually to gain range, and kite, thus Throatcut's value as a repulsive skill is redundant.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
After WoG a sin is supposed to do Throatcut.
Really, Throatcut should only be used against archers that feel like attacking back after WoG (i.e Feather A, metals).
He was referring to the fact that a 100% proc-rate purge from a werefox has a 33% chance to remove purgable buffs from an assassin.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
Tidal Protection can't be purged.
And this is why no one knows how to PK a sin correctly these days.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
I don't even think Chill of the deep can be purged.
Honestly, if one of the most respected players of this game doesn't even know how a basic skill works, how do you expect an average layman to have success? This is akin to watching professors scratching their heads over the P vs NP problem - then watching the professors wonder why toddlers can't solve the problem either.
This is one of the most fundamental problems with people in PvP nowadays. Skillfulness has a logistic-curve based return rate but everyone is still stuck at the low end. And no one realizes it, so they complain.0 -
Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »Any sin worth a damn at this point has Elimination.
You mean any sin with a deep wallet? Sorry im not rich hunny bun.
Sage punture wound is running 50 gold on my server and im not taking money out of my bills to buy it. You gonna buy my +10 orbs, or recast my r9 ring? How about buying me a L:U&D? Please define "worth a damn" because all that seems to entail is me blowing 200m on a skill I do just fine without, and even if I had the money to spend on it, first i would actually have to find a book. Yea, on my server it's just THAT rare. GG.Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
After WoG a sin is supposed to do Throatcut. WoG is a 30 second cooldown and throatcut is 8 seconds so throatcut is always available and goes through WoG. Although they have the same chi cost, chi is much cheaper to use as a sin so it's worth it.
You assume I dont know this, and this is precisely whay I said people don't read and COMPREHEND.
"and the answer to most of a sins control skills as they can be countered by WoG."
"...most..."
Throatcut is 1 skill. Sins have a stun, slow, sleep, immobolize, and another slow, which are countered by WoG... *facepalm*. What's the point of wasting 1 spark to CC an enemy that's just gonna run anyway? Considering the anti-stun last longer than my seal, it's not always worth it.XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »
no this is bull****,DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »Last time i checked tidal isnt 100% and purge can still make it through. This sentence is BS and you know it.
66% chance on top of 20% chance to proc its like 8% chance each hit, you ll need to land like what 12 auto atks to purge statistically
but what the sin will do? afk tank the hits w\o doing nothing? while he has the best dps burst and the best CCs?
I should show you TW video where I jumped on a seeker that was in mid air to avoid a BoA, then got purged with tidal active and killed before i even hit the ground, funny stuff.0 -
Don't mind this DionDagger nab, he's a know it all troll who is a horrible, easy kill for pretty much anyone on DW. He'll argue with you all day thinking he knows everything, yet he doesn't even know how to get decent gear.0
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No point arguing for anything less than end game meta really. A sin may or may not be OP, but even if they are, it is not for the reasons stated in this thread.Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer
All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw0070 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »You mean any sin with a deep wallet? Sorry im not rich hunny bun.
Sage punture wound is running 50 gold on my server and im not taking money out of my bills to buy it. You gonna buy my +10 orbs, or recast my r9 ring? How about buying me a L:U&D? Please define "worth a damn" because all that seems to entail is me blowing 200m on a skill I do just fine without, and even if I had the money to spend on it, first i would actually have to find a book. Yea, on my server it's just THAT rare. GG.
You sound like a non-factor sin then.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0 -
Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »You sound like a non-factor sin then.
A non-factor calling me a non-factor. How ironic.hiitsmeguys wrote: »Don't mind this DionDagger nab, he's a know it all troll who is a horrible, easy kill for pretty much anyone on DW. He'll argue with you all day thinking he knows everything, yet he doesn't even know how to get decent gear.
Sounds like another one of my haters. Thank you for making me famous. GG. 0 -
Dear DionDagger... we have a multiquote and edit function. Please use them instead of always double/triple/quadruple posting.
No really. You need to stop doing that. b:sweat(Insert fancy image here)0 -
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