Which class do you avoid the most in PvP?

I disagree.

Firstly, Perfect World itself is not non-skill based. It is PWE's management that made it that way. Gear and class advantage is not a problem with the game itself. It is entirely introduced by PWE's repeated sale of packs, r9, orbs, etc. that greatly tips the balance in favor of cashshoppers. You cannot say that the game does not require skill simply because of poor management. Even -insert games world reknown for their balance and skill based play here- can be non-skill based if they had PWE's level of management.

Secondly, you can't compare FPS Games, MOBA games, and RTS games to MMO Games. It's comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing Rocket Scientists to chefs. Perfect World, as a game, has a lot of skill involved in timing, reaction, and memorization. It is much different from Macro and Micro found in RTS and MOBA, and it is much different from aiming found in FPS. But it is skill nonetheless.

How many BMs on this server can perform a perfect lock? How many archers know how to utilize their skills for DPH rather than DPS? How many sins can actually cycle their DPS skill for maximum efficiency (pre-NH)? How many people can predict an Assassin's stun and fortify in time to block it? How many people can block control skills with single sparks when they're out of Apoth and Genie? All of these are possible, but the fact that you almost never see anyone do this largely speaks of the amount of skill required of this game.

Finally, yes, Randomness is a thing, but despite randomness, we can still find many people who consistently beat their opponents. Why is that? If randomness is truly such a huge factor, then all fights should be roughly 50/50, but this is simply not the case. All randomness does is allow an unskill opponent to maybe win 1 or 2 fights, but the more skilled opponent will still win most of the time.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I disagree.

Firstly, Perfect World itself is not non-skill based. It is PWE's management that made it that way. Gear and class advantage is not a problem with the game itself. It is entirely introduced by PWE's repeated sale of packs, r9, orbs, etc. that greatly tips the balance in favor of cashshoppers. You cannot say that the game does not require skill simply because of poor management. Even -insert games world reknown for their balance and skill based play here- can be non-skill based if they had PWE's level of management.

Secondly, you can't compare FPS Games, MOBA games, and RTS games to MMO Games. It's comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing Rocket Scientists to chefs. Perfect World, as a game, has a lot of skill involved in timing, reaction, and memorization. It is much different from Macro and Micro found in RTS and MOBA, and it is much different from aiming found in FPS. But it is skill nonetheless.

How many BMs on this server can perform a perfect lock? How many archers know how to utilize their skills for DPH rather than DPS? How many sins can actually cycle their DPS skill for maximum efficiency (pre-NH)? How many people can predict an Assassin's stun and fortify in time to block it? How many people can block control skills with single sparks when they're out of Apoth and Genie? All of these are possible, but the fact that you almost never see anyone do this largely speaks of the amount of skill required of this game.

Finally, yes, Randomness is a thing, but despite randomness, we can still find many people who consistently beat their opponents. Why is that? If randomness is truly such a huge factor, then all fights should be roughly 50/50, but this is simply not the case. All randomness does is allow an unskill opponent to maybe win 1 or 2 fights, but the more skilled opponent will still win most of the time.

I see your point, but realize I mentioned mobas not to unfairly compare pwi to them, but to make the point that any mmorpg, not just pwi, is limited in terms of what you can call skill. I bolded the modifiers so that I was clear; it's not that I was saying pwi took no skill, just that it didn't take much before reaching a ceiling (in other words, you can only do so much with your character due to natural limitations imposed in mmorpgs that is much harder to reach in other genres of games that allow for greater extension of your reaction, in micro, macro, pathing, and so on). your examples of bm's not stun locking and other classes not properly rotating their skills speaks to our demographic of players (older players, girls, carebears, etc), not the depth of the skill required to play this game as asterelle pointed out.

all I'm getting at is it's pretty silly for people to brag about having skill in pwi, and that if, for whatever reason, someone wants to take pride in their skill at video games, they ought to invest that time into the genres that have a market in the e-sports world whereby a truer definition of 'skill' is needed to excel : )

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Finally, yes, Randomness is a thing, but despite randomness, we can still find many people who consistently beat their opponents. Why is that? If randomness is truly such a huge factor, then all fights should be roughly 50/50, but this is simply not the case. All randomness does is allow an unskill opponent to maybe win 1 or 2 fights, but the more skilled opponent will still win most of the time.

The game is much more luck-based now than it has ever been due to the dominance of Tidal Protection, God of Frenzy, Spirit Blackhole, and Purify Spell. Crit rates are overall higher now while defense is higher, making people more reliant on strings of crits to win. R999 weapon procs have changed the landscape of PVP and require no skill at all to execute.

Admittedly some matchups are much more luck based than others. Archer vs archer is probably the worst one due the influence of crits, misses, purges, and Quickshot procing. Sins I suppose don't have to rely on luck much since Elimination is an easy win.

Skill is good to have and there is a level of skill you need to be effective in PVP but you hit a point of diminishing returns pretty fast. Class advantage is the dominant factor in most equal gear 1v1 matchups.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. Skillfulness is a relative assertion from game to game. It is not absolute. Whether MMORPG, RTS, or MOBA, skill brackets are defined by the players. If everyone where able to play at a "Grandmaster" bracket, then I'm sure that bracket will be quickly lowered to "Average" or even "Entry".

The same goes for PWI. Most people cannot accomplish the feats I'm talking about, and probably never will. Whether it is because they simply don't care, or it is too skillful is another question. But the fact that the average population have not (and most likely will not) accomplish the feats I described is a perfectly valid reason for someone who have accomplished those feats to be considered a skilled player.

Sure, maybe once everyone have maximized their gameplay, we can say that PWI is too shallow and we need a deeper game. Yet, the same goes for RTS. Once everyone maximized their gameplay in RTS, we will need deeper games too. But fact is, that just won't happen. What I'm getting at is that being considered skilled at PWI vs being considered skilled at RTS is the same concept. It's all relative.

You might say it is much easier to get skilled at PWI than it is to get skilled at MOBA, RTS, or FPS game, but I would say that varies greatly person to person. A friend of mine is better than me in FPS games, I'm better than him on PvP in Perfect World. In FPS, it's all about quick reflex and patience which he is good at. While on PWI, it's partly reflex, but also partly timing and memorization which I happen to be better with. This is just one example, but I'm sure there are many like it. And to say that because he plays FPS and I play MMORPG, therefore he is more skilled than me overall simply won't make sense. Because once again, skill is relative to the game. There is no absolute measurement of skill.

If we take this to the basics and go with Tic Tac Toe, we can still find people who are more skilled than others because they learned to play perfectly, while others go by intuition. However, on Tic Tac Toe, playing perfectly is much easier, so the average people can easily reach, or starts off at the maximum "Grandmaster" skill bracket. Thus, we say the game is too shallow and takes no skill. But as far as PWI goes, it hasn't reached that "ceiling" yet. While PWI might reach it much sooner than RTS or FPS games, I'm unconvinced it will happen in the foreseeable future at the very least.

Afterall, is Chess no longer a skilled game because Computers can now beat Grandmasters?

In conclusion, what I'm trying to argue for is that:

1. PWI has a lower ceiling than RTS/MOBA/FPS games - I agree
2. PWI has reached that ceiling - I disagree
3. Because PWI has a lower ceiling, people should not be considered a skilled player - I disagree
4. Because PWI has a lower ceiling, it means PWI does not take as much skill to be good - I disagree until evidence proves contrary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The game is much more luck-based now than it has ever been due to the dominance of Tidal Protection, God of Frenzy, Spirit Blackhole, and Purify Spell. Crit rates are overall higher now while defense is higher, making people more reliant on strings of crits to win. R999 weapon procs have changed the landscape of PVP and require no skill at all to execute.

Admittedly some matchups are much more luck based than others. Archer vs archer is probably the worst one due the influence of crits, misses, purges, and Quickshot procing. Sins I suppose don't have to rely on luck much since Elimination is an easy win.

Skill is good to have and there is a level of skill you need to be effective in PVP but you hit a point of diminishing returns pretty fast. Class advantage is the dominant factor in most equal gear 1v1 matchups.

If it is true that Tidal Protection, God of Frenzy, and Crits are all major luck factors, then why are not all Assassin 1v1 50/50?

In fact, how is it even believably possible I can win a single of these fights? http://youtu.be/WmNgD6A7EWM?t=1m11s

Just to recap: I have literally no advantage.

We're both 104
He has NW gears, I don't
He has +12, I'm at most +10
He has JOSD and Deities, I have citrines
No class advantage here at all

I mean, my opponent knows the basic. He has genie, he has apoth, he has tidal protection, he knows how to use skills and attack. He has killed people before so he is effective in PvP. But the results still says alot.

OPKossy wrote: »

When it comes to PvP here, it's gear > class > luck > skill.

The right class that gets lucky enough and is skilled can hold their own reasonably well... but there's a gear threshold where your opponent can go take a nap while you do everything in your power to kill them and fail. At equal gear, it's more class/luck than skill these days. Certain classes will never lose to certain other classes assuming equal gear unless their is either a massive skill gap... or thee's an absurd amount of poor luck AND the opponent has just enough skill to take advantage of it.

Would archers be at a disadvantage vs sins? Some archers can beat sins repeatedly on equal gears, which would mean that the assertion that Sins > Archer is false, or that skill does matter.

Proski - Archosaur wrote: »

I see your point, but realize I mentioned mobas not to unfairly compare pwi to them, but to make the point that any mmorpg, not just pwi, is limited in terms of what you can call skill. I bolded the modifiers so that I was clear; it's not that I was saying pwi took no skill, just that it didn't take much before reaching a ceiling (in other words, you can only do so much with your character due to natural limitations imposed in mmorpgs that is much harder to reach in other genres of games that allow for greater extension of your reaction, in micro, macro, pathing, and so on). your examples of bm's not stun locking and other classes not properly rotating their skills speaks to our demographic of players (older players, girls, carebears, etc), not the depth of the skill required to play this game as asterelle pointed out.

all I'm getting at is it's pretty silly for people to brag about having skill in pwi, and that if, for whatever reason, someone wants to take pride in their skill at video games, they ought to invest that time into the genres that have a market in the e-sports world whereby a truer definition of 'skill' is needed to excel : )

There are 2 specific venos (szw knows who I'm talking about) coming at you from under your bed right now b:angry

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

That's 2 good out of what? 5,000? 10,000? LOL I mean no offense when I say this, but at least 90% of the female players cannot even reach the average skill level required to become useful in PK gg

I take offense to that and can say the same is true about males. 90% of the people left playing this game in general suck at PvP (hence, how I can do all the **** I get away with on lowbies). Gender doesn't really change that either way.

And just as there are "girl gamers" who bring shame to all actual females playing games, there are guys who do the same for males.


Proud female here who kicks *** and looks damn good in my fash (and appropriate wings as the case may be) while I do so!

Hooray!

Also, I totally exaggerated on the whole "taking offense to that" bit. Didn't really phase me at all, just wanted to make a point. b:laugh

Not really.

There's an order of magnitude in the gap between my skill and their skill.

On top of that, I repeatedly point out that my skill only has the chance to come into play due to luck not **** me over (when you're a 1-shot and miss the disable you open with on the opponent you could have killed otherwise? Yeah sucks for you) and the fact that they aren't at a point with gear where nothing I do would matter (IE: G16+10 and up against a pre-100 unreborn character in +5s).

Since the gear gap isn't wide enough to where I still have no chance and I am VASTLY more skilled than my oponents, yes, I get to kill them regularly unless I run into poor luck, which again, is a major factor since no amount of skill will save me if my luck is too poor for me to take advantage of an opening a person who is essentially clueless in PvP gives.

Essentially what I was saying, and pointed out at the start of the post you quoted, is that skill can only take me so far. Gear and luck will matter far more overall (gear can create a lose/lose situation and luck can mean that at best I can only run) and when gear and luck are equalized, class is a more deciding factor unless you're MUCH better than your opponent.

Were skill truly as major a thing as you're trying to say it is... then even a slight bit more skill for one person would allow them to overcome the advantages an opponent has. That is FAR from the case in this game, however. Sure, I've killed a R9 seeker on a level 85 gamma capped assassin before a few times... but I had a class advantage AND far more skill. Had the seeker been any good? Actually, correction... had any of my skills failed or missed due to luck and thus let the seeker escape the lock I had them in? Boom 2-shot dead sin... and no amount of skill on my part would have changed that result.

Honestly, because gear is more common, both in ease to obtain and how wide the gap can be, and a much more defining limit (IE: someone can have a gear advantage that makes it impossible for another person to win but the same cannot apply for the other factors because luck can always **** a person over), in comparison to class (applies mainly when dealing with similar skill) and luck (can **** over anyone at any time unless the aforementioned gear gap is too massive), most would find gear as the defining factor over the rest.

Then comes class advantages because some classes just have that natural advantage and that's a part of the game nothing can change. Yes, you can work towards mitigating that as much as possible when it's against you, but without a large enough gap in skill/gear between yourself and your opponent your disadvantage will bite you in the rear as time passes.

After that comes luck... which is the self-explanatory great equalizer that can **** you over in any setting. And while it ~should~ be a fairly random toss up... most times things either go decently or horribly. Especially if it comes to group PvP since more people = more chances of things going wrong, though that's straying from the topic and I apologize. Feel free to ignore that point.

Finally, I'd put skill as the lowest factor simply because there are so many things that can overwhelm it and... well... people with a great amount of skill overcoming the odds against those without is the exception, not the norm. Most people ingame suck at PvP and can barely manage the class issues when on the same tier of gear as their opponent... and only perform worse when having more odds placed against them. Then there's the rare elite you can see solo squads of people and the "average" player would look at that and immediately scream the class is OP even though it was a tremendous amount of skill that allowed that to happen in most cases. Yes, skill can make a huge difference for those who possess a large amount... but how rare is that compared to how easily a TT90 +3 with what's considered average skill nowadays gets demolished by a R8+5 or G16+7 or heaven's forbid R9+10 player?


Or to put it another way, what's easier for an average person? Gearing up to overwhelm a challenge (IE: All the threads asking "can I solo FCC with -whatever-) or learning and mastering the skills to excel at it (IE: How I can solo it on as low as 7X characters that lack high refines or OP gear even though I choose not to because of the time factor). Same with class advantages. How many times as a lowbie were you told you can't tank "blah" or that only X class can handle Y? Sure, those statements are false with sufficient skill... but for the vast majority it's easier to grab -insert class here- to do so. As for luck... well I've died in Aba to falling rocks more times than I'd like to admit because of having a bad day, lag issues, or something similar. Sure, it's usually no issue... but man do I feel like a total nub when it does happen.

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Lmao, I can't believe the most avoided class in 1v1 is sins. They're so easy D;

I voted for sins cause they only class that can one shot me, archers hurt and they can kill me, but not one shot me, while sins do easy 35k crit + on me which I cannot survive. xD

There is some obvious definition issue here.

To Kossy, he feels that whatever the average player has should be defined as being more of a factor. So since the average player has more gear than they do skill, gear becomes more of a factor.

To me, I feel that whatever makes an impact should be defined as being more of a factor. Gears make an impact, but skill also makes an impact. And in all but the extreme cases where your opponent can simply AFK tank, skill can overwhelm class advantage and gear advantage combined if and only if you have it. In fact, most people being unskilled is why it's a huge factor to me, not the other way around. So thus, I put skill as being more of a factor.

To Venus, a large gear gap is when you can barely kill your opponent. To me, that is an extreme case.

To me, a large gear gap would be examples of R9 first cast vs R9 Third cast. +8 vs +12, Citrine vs JOSD, NW gears vs non NW gears. However, you would have to be able to kill your opponent.

To me, Luck is not a factor because to truly determine the final out come of a fight between 2 players, multiple rounds must be done. In these multiple rounds, the luck will always even out. To Venus and Kossy, luck is defined on a round by round basis, rather than in all rounds altogether.

I don't think I can really argue for anything at this point, because my points would be invalid under your definition, just as your points would be invalid under my definition.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming equality (or at a disadvantage) in gears/cards I'd avoid seekers/barbs/maybe BM's and probably sins.

On Dreamweaver server there is currently only one player that fits the above criteria, a friend in the same faction

Why would u avoid those and only "probably" sins? Just curious as for a less geared Archer I don't run from seekers nor bm (metal attacks + phys-mag attacks depending on marrow) but I do run from sins for their one-shot capabilities if catching me without leaps

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is some obvious definition issue here.

To Kossy, he feels that whatever the average player has should be defined as being more of a factor. So since the average player has more gear than they do skill, gear becomes more of a factor.

To me, I feel that whatever makes an impact should be defined as being more of a factor. Gears make an impact, but skill also makes an impact. And in all but the extreme cases where your opponent can simply AFK tank, skill can overwhelm class advantage and gear advantage combined if and only if you have it. In fact, most people being unskilled is why it's a huge factor to me, not the other way around. So thus, I put skill as being more of a factor.

To Venus, a large gear gap is when you can barely kill your opponent. To me, that is an extreme case.

To me, a large gear gap would be examples of R9 first cast vs R9 Third cast. +8 vs +12, Citrine vs JOSD, NW gears vs non NW gears. However, you would have to be able to kill your opponent.

To me, Luck is not a factor because to truly determine the final out come of a fight between 2 players, multiple rounds must be done. In these multiple rounds, the luck will always even out. To Venus and Kossy, luck is defined on a round by round basis, rather than in all rounds altogether.

I don't think I can really argue for anything at this point, because my points would be invalid under your definition, just as your points would be invalid under my definition.

NW is a thing now, and it's no longer an extreme case. I run into that every single time I NW even though that's a different subject, although you can often run into brief 1v1 there especially on not so well geared toons which tend to have shorter fights regardless. And 1v1 on the PVP servers, it's a daily reality and they gotta be careful to make sure they don't lose valuables to these people that have no realistic chance of winning. Your R9 first cast vs Third Cast is more an example of a medium gear gap. It's not one that cannot be overcome, even though the gap is significant. Just like decently refined tt80 gold vs R999 unrefined Kossy provided. And nevertheless it is a factor that was built into the game when you step back and look at the large picture. It's important to do that, because what I described above is a large factor as to why this game has dwindled down into a small (relatively speaking) group of veterans mowing down newbies left after right and trying to get what fun they can out of 1v1 against each other, while wishing for new faces to the extent that many of them even support server mergers. Gear means everything in this game and the larger the gear gap is, the more easy it is to know the outcome before both players have even started. As the gear gap approaches zero, then and only then is when other factors come into play.

That's the entire reason that Zanryu had to stipulate when making the poll that he's speaking about when the gear gap is equal, because the first thing that determines the outcome is gear, not skill.

After that lot's of people die to bad luck not being outplayed. To the point that as I read these forums, it's probably one of the most consistent complaints I have seen from people with a wide variety of pvp knowledge and skill, especially those that are skilled. Including those who post and are ranked consistently as the best of their classes in those pvp threads. This game has introduced a wide variety of different luck factors in part to make medium gear fights more interesting. And I think it's work and it's really awesome that even a tt80 gold person can beat a r999 person if the gear gap isn't too large, it keeps things interesting. But luck playing such a large factor does serve to lessen the importance of both gear and skill, since it's a double edged sword and can and does cause someone whose is terrible compared to you to come out on top.

In fact Luck plays a large enough factor that we even have quite a few SZ warriors who are terrible at the game, but well geared and generally lucky enough that they get enough kills to validate their ego. Even though they refuse to leave SZ with even one thing not in their favor and run back when things are not. And why wouldn't they think that? Gear and Luck plays such a large factor that those people are able to get plenty of kills, despite the fact that they aren't all that good. And at the end of the day, how do most people measure their own success in pvp? How often they are killed, and how often they get kills. If you're almost never killed (SZ) and you get plenty of kills, you'd probably think you are pretty awesome.

And the fact that your definition also controls for luck by doing multiple rounds, shows that it's a more important factor than skill. So you have to control for it in order to determine whose the most skilled. If it was as small as importance as it seems like you're making it out to be, you could just look at 1v1 fights and only do multiple rounds if luck just happened to play too large a factor to determine who was the most skilled.

In those sports while the championship matches are typically done again, just in case, often teams are eliminated in just one game way before they ever reach that level. You can easily have a bad game during a tourney and lose out on going to a bowl game in college football for example. In fact my college team got knocked out in basketball this year after doing well all season after we lost a particular game. b:sad

And this isn't like real life. We can modify your luck, for example BMs and Sins back in the days of APS being king both still hope for zerk crits. But...sin was going to get a lot more often than BM regardless of individual skill. And that's why when everyone and their mom complained about APS, they were mostly complaining about sins. Purify Proc saving a caster's butt is going to happen and will happen regardless of the caster skill. These types of thing getting lucky and saving people happens a lot and while there is skill involved in say holding out for a crit, you're still just waiting to get lucky.

And again, I was not saying that it was ONLY due to luck. But when things like crit are so important in getting a kill, then luck is more important than skill.

And if you refuse to count the experiences of others as PVP then, despite the fact that it's been one of the largest determining factor in the trajectory of player size and success in this game. Then I guess we just see things too differently to ever come to agreement.

I agree that the fights worth discussing fall more into the medium/small skill gap, but when we step back and look at the game as whole I do think everyone's experiences should count because it's certainly a factor in the health of the game. And you do not. Fair enough.b:surrender