Venos fair treatment >:
Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary
Posts: 86 Arc User
2 facts before I begin:
-Idc how many times this has been asked for
-Idc if it won't change a thing
Make veno reflect usable in pk. The fact is that not allowing venos to use reflect in pk alone is unfair. Bramble hood is a 2 spark skill and the damage reduction does not justify 2 sparks. So what if sins kill themselves on it? Sins can learn to not spark on everything they see. People deal with all of the reflects in nw/tw and I rarely see anyone complain.
This would be a good way to make up for honestly giving venos the worst set of primal merges ever. I know a lot of venos that got the primal skills and the fact is that they aren't really happy about getting good skills... they are happy that they got something a tiny bit better to replace old utterly useless skills. Redwood is good for sages, but a nerf to demons. Grudge strike is the only okay skill, but most venos barely have times at which it would be worth using. So primal skills were quite useless.
Another thing is the fact that purge/debuffs are becoming obsolete. Seriously the skill is supposed to be able to remove all positive effects, but almost every buff now a days can't be purged.
Yes we have blazing barrier, but it's not anywhere near as good as bramble hood. Reflecting was just a basic part of venomancers just like stealth is a basic part of sins or the psychic reflect. It's not really asking for anything that can't be done. I would just like to see fairness considering venos are like the only class that has an important skill limited to nw/tw and yes I didn't say pve because it is obviously not meant for pve since mobs barely take any damage from reflect. That's all b:cute
-Idc how many times this has been asked for
-Idc if it won't change a thing
Make veno reflect usable in pk. The fact is that not allowing venos to use reflect in pk alone is unfair. Bramble hood is a 2 spark skill and the damage reduction does not justify 2 sparks. So what if sins kill themselves on it? Sins can learn to not spark on everything they see. People deal with all of the reflects in nw/tw and I rarely see anyone complain.
This would be a good way to make up for honestly giving venos the worst set of primal merges ever. I know a lot of venos that got the primal skills and the fact is that they aren't really happy about getting good skills... they are happy that they got something a tiny bit better to replace old utterly useless skills. Redwood is good for sages, but a nerf to demons. Grudge strike is the only okay skill, but most venos barely have times at which it would be worth using. So primal skills were quite useless.
Another thing is the fact that purge/debuffs are becoming obsolete. Seriously the skill is supposed to be able to remove all positive effects, but almost every buff now a days can't be purged.
Yes we have blazing barrier, but it's not anywhere near as good as bramble hood. Reflecting was just a basic part of venomancers just like stealth is a basic part of sins or the psychic reflect. It's not really asking for anything that can't be done. I would just like to see fairness considering venos are like the only class that has an important skill limited to nw/tw and yes I didn't say pve because it is obviously not meant for pve since mobs barely take any damage from reflect. That's all b:cute
Post edited by Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary on
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Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary wrote: »This would be a good way to make up for honestly giving venos the worst set of primal merges ever.
Hello, I'm an archer. Nice to meet you.Current: http://mypers.pw/1.8/#133167
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary wrote: »Make veno reflect usable in pk.
I stopped reading. I may be a noob in PvP, but holy **** venos....
I tried a little bit of pvp in my faction dualing all different kinds of toons sometimes with all equip sometimes in NPC gear to make it more fair. (most were lesser equiped) Me and my BM buddy would win every battle except against the veno that is actually lesser equiped than us. Not a chance to beat her. You cant hit it or you die yourself, you cant not hit it because it will kill you as soon as you run out of defence options.
As said, im a pvp nab, but it felt like something was very very wrong in the matchup for a mellee vs a veno.Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.0 -
>Devs allow Bramble Guard and Bramble Hood to work in PK
>Bramble Guard's effect is significantly lower vs player targets
>Hood remains the same (therefore being worth the spark cost)
I'd be fine with it in such a case.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Remember: OP may be a duck|OP/GMs/Devs may not deliver|Search function is your friend|Lurk more|Be wary of Mods: they can't be trusted|This place isn't a hugbox|Your tears sustain me|Know what Bait is|"Soon" may never come|Postcount, Dubs, and other GETs are important|Don't revive long dead threads|There is a section for everything|You can be banned for anything|No Fun Allowed outside of OT|Sweetiebot rules OT|"Circlejerks" are inevitable|Threads can be derailed and saved|Those who use"XD" should off themselves at their earliest convenience|0 -
what was unfair was demon ironwood in the first place, the only debuff that could reduce defenses to 0 no matter buffs- it was a insta skill after it
wasnt it a lot of venos that complained about archers purge bows? so purge argument bye bye
demons have two antistun skills+ wep proc. any other class has that except archers(that of course dont have that wep proc)?
if your defense is anything decent then blazing barrier is quite effecient (and cheap to cast) on top of already having hood
you can already : seal, stun, bewitch, feral conc, two barriers, have the highest movement speed, ability to nerf enemy accuracy...thats already more than any class for control skills, lets not forget good pets that can either stun or debuff..gg
also as said here the archer primal skills are utter rubbish even compared to veno ones
how would bramble be fair in pvp anyway, its not like venos have low defenses, no control skills, are slow, or anything that would justify bramble working in pvp, its already an order or two of magnitude stronger than soul of vengeance
you really havent provided a reason at all why it is "unfair"
additionally " So what if sins kill themselves on it? Sins can learn to not spark on everything they see." so bramble doesnt hurt if a sin doesnt spark? news to me0 -
Mosz - Heavens Tear wrote: »what was unfair was demon ironwood in the first place, the only debuff that could reduce defenses to 0 no matter buffs- it was a insta skill after it
It only has 20% chance to proc however so it looks fair to me. If they were to nerf the debuff they'd have to increase the proc rate significantly according to the degree of the nerf but we got the primal Redstone Venomworm instead.lets not forget good pets that can either stun or debuff..gg
Most pets require investments in order to be of actual use in PvP otherwise they are a 1shot to anything.
We're talking about the Monkey which costs 225 gold (it's too new to have any major sales on it, we only had a 20% one as far as I know) and additionally getting legendary defence skills for it. Despite that, you can easily kill even the tankiest pets with DoTs. Phoenixes aren't all that great in comparison to Monkeys (in my opinion).
Not a complaint for the cost; just a fact. Venomancers are supposed to be a pet class anyhow.>Bramble Guard's effect is significantly lower vs player targets
Technically it already is: 75%Demon/60%Sage to 20%Lv10/25%Lv11.
I'm fairly certain Blazing Barrier was the developers' response to the Bramble Guard complaints (I assume they happened in PWCN too) so I doubt will ever see any other change concerning the Bramble skills.
I'm fine with that as long as it remains usable in TW (and NW I guess) so that it's not turned into a PvE skill only. I like having a buff that's worth giving to my team mates in TW. In other words, no more nerfs and keep the skills as is.
I'd be more interested in them updating Frost Scarab and Soul Link/Soul Shatter to make them worth using. Demon Frost Scarab had a few uses but with the monkey pets and Stunning Blow never missing, I don't really have a reason to blow a spark for it. Even less of a reason I have to use Soul Shatter as it seems to be way too situational and not worth the two sparks. I'm aware other classes have such skills too (most recently: Frost Splash for Archers).[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary wrote: »2 facts before I begin:
-Idc how many times this has been asked for
-Idc if it won't change a thing
Make veno reflect usable in pk. The fact is that not allowing venos to use reflect in pk alone is unfair. Bramble hood is a 2 spark skill and the damage reduction does not justify 2 sparks. So what if sins kill themselves on it? Sins can learn to not spark on everything they see. People deal with all of the reflects in nw/tw and I rarely see anyone complain.
This would be a good way to make up for honestly giving venos the worst set of primal merges ever. I know a lot of venos that got the primal skills and the fact is that they aren't really happy about getting good skills... they are happy that they got something a tiny bit better to replace old utterly useless skills. Redwood is good for sages, but a nerf to demons. Grudge strike is the only okay skill, but most venos barely have times at which it would be worth using. So primal skills were quite useless.
Another thing is the fact that purge/debuffs are becoming obsolete. Seriously the skill is supposed to be able to remove all positive effects, but almost every buff now a days can't be purged.
Yes we have blazing barrier, but it's not anywhere near as good as bramble hood. Reflecting was just a basic part of venomancers just like stealth is a basic part of sins or the psychic reflect. It's not really asking for anything that can't be done. I would just like to see fairness considering venos are like the only class that has an important skill limited to nw/tw and yes I didn't say pve because it is obviously not meant for pve since mobs barely take any damage from reflect. That's all b:cute
Veno's bramble been disabled in early 1980's due to "Your reflect may make you Redblood infamous by just afking.", They found a way to work psychics deflect and make it "Not work on PK protections", but venomancer's bramble just got overlooked.
Also, the dev team isn't big (about 6 programmers) and they have no idea of what they're doing.
Now imagine reading code wrote by chinese people b:laugh I think even themselves get lost in their code.[S.E.V.C.H.E.N.K.O]
Synthetic Electronic Variant Calibrated for Hazardous Exploration, Nullification and Kamikaze Observation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »Veno's bramble been disabled in early 1980's due to "Your reflect may make you Redblood infamous by just afking.", They found a way to work psychics deflect and make it "Not work on PK protections", but venomancer's bramble just got overlooked.
Also, the dev team isn't big (about 6 programmers) and they have no idea of what they're doing.
Now imagine reading code wrote by chinese people b:laugh I think even themselves get lost in their code.
I can almost bet that they'd mess up horribly in trying to enable Bramble in PK again and somehow break the game horribly or make Bramble instant kill you b:laugh[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
Howmany reflects do people need to be active in PvP before they stop qq'ing..Blazing Barrier
Mana 454
Channel 1.0 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 60.0 seconds
Weapon Magic Instruments, Unarmed
Required Cultivation: Aware of Vacuity
Surround yourself with a barrier of fiery energy for 15
seconds. Reduces incoming damage by 30%, and reflects
100% of all incoming melee damage back at the attacker.
Costs 30 Chi.
Look at this skill and ask again about how you need bramble as well. This skill reflects back 100% damage 25% of the time you're running around. It even affects archers attacking from ranged (so **** "incoming melee damage", and just make it all physical damage.) If anything about Veno Reflects it would be that this should be in quality corner to be fixed asap about reflecting ranged physical damage.
Getting Bramble on top of Blazing Barrier would mean no melee class could ever attack you without killing themselves. Do you consider that "fair" or do you agree that it is somewhat extremely unbalanced? Your pvp bramble is Blazing Barrier, learn to live with it.
My apologies for the somewhat rant but this is the umpteenth time I see veno's qq'ing about bramble to be active in PvP: it is simply not balanced, why?
Do lunar bh boss: let it cast bramble and let any melee class tank him: Did he die, or survive? Thanks to BP he survived? Now let's imagine the PK-nerf of 75% reduced damage done/less BP gained, would he still live? That is on a target that hit's barely back. Now add your veno attacking the attacker on top of that, howmany times do you estimate he'd win? The right answer is somewhere between 0 and lies.0 -
Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary wrote: »Another thing is the fact that purge/debuffs are becoming obsolete. Seriously the skill is supposed to be able to remove all positive effects, but almost every buff now a days can't be purged.
i agree (but atleast ur amplify atleast flat and demon ironwood what still better than haveing only defence debuff) but this is funny reply to suggestion to solve the defence debuff problemI stopped reading here, the stupidity is too astounding. This thread isn't worth the effort of some proper math. Have fun with your asinine QQ.
by a archer who also got huge nerfJarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »Hello, I'm an archer. Nice to meet you.
b:laugh0 -
Venos are considered by most a support class, but in my opinion we are more like a survival class, and that's about it. The only way we have to support is by debuffs and amps, but this is very inneffective now because people have pots for self buffing and increased defense from passive skills. And, at least in my server there was a sage sin infestation, targets that could not be debuffed.
We don't have any skill to help directly our teammates and veno's damage isn't that big enough to help kill important targets. It's very ironic that some classes that are viewed as dds, have better support skills. Sins can stealth someone who is in trouble, and effectively save them, while the character that is called "support" can't do anything.
So, they should give venos better support skills, or make their damage skills a lot better.0 -
Actually, the primal defenses makes amp even more effective while indirectly nerfing debuffs/purge.
So having a veno to amp a key target is actually now even far more of a thing than it was prior to this update.(Insert fancy image here)
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Actually, the primal defenses makes amp even more effective while indirectly nerfing debuffs/purge.
So having a veno to amp a key target is actually now even far more of a thing than it was prior to this update.
i dont got this, i thougth amp same effective than before because not nerfed
hf, subsea, extremity poison, rage dmg, barb primal amplify, attack level buffs (black voodoo, genie frenzy, seeker sacrficial), Invigorate, seeker buffs,archer 25% amplify also not nerfed0 -
It's a relative statement.
As an example, cleric debuffing mdef + metal resist with a group of metal DDs prior to the change could potentially be considered better than having amp before due to the lack of passives. Now, on the other hand, passives create a buffer that can't be touched meaning the value of a flat amp (when compared to a regular debuff) is greater now in comparison.
Hence why I had to mention the fact that the primal passives are indirectly nerfing debuffs and purge.(Insert fancy image here)0 -
Azura - Lost City wrote: »
We don't have any skill to help directly our teammates and veno's damage isn't that big enough to help kill important targets. It's very ironic that some classes that are viewed as dds, have better support skills. Sins can stealth someone who is in trouble, and effectively save them, while the character that is called "support" can't do anything.
So, they should give venos better support skills, or make their damage skills a lot better.
Veno not a support class? You must be the kind of veno always in human form DDing to say that. No direct help? Have you try to kill a end game cata barb without a veno to purge/amp? You have the best debuffs in game even if they are randoms, you can pass chi, I don't know how many time bramble legit saved my life cause stupid aps sin/bm killing themselves on me. You can remove chi from important target which keep them from using 2 spark AOEs...
Veno having bad support skills? ... lol learn to play your class, a sin can stealth someone while you can't do nothing? I never saw a sin doing it (fishes are too selfish to do anything to help people), you can stun, paralyze, silence target and you say you can't do anything to help? b:bye
EDIT: The only point I agree with what the OP said is that bramble should work in the open PVP and everywhere.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
It's a relative statement.
As an example, cleric debuffing mdef + metal resist with a group of metal DDs prior to the change could potentially be considered better than having amp before due to the lack of passives. Now, on the other hand, passives create a buffer that can't be touched meaning the value of a flat amp (when compared to a regular debuff) is greater now in comparison.
Hence why I had to mention the fact that the primal passives are indirectly nerfing debuffs and purge.
oky, agree with that 100% really, since i feel that with udine strike aswell just i thougth u talked only about that 1 veno ability skill not in general, but i got it, so we think same about defence debuff vs flat amplify0 -
Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »Veno not a support class? You must be the kind of veno always in human form DDing to say that. (Nope always in foxm form) No direct help? Have you try to kill a end game cata barb without a veno to purge/amp? (My faction won 3 consecutive times TW against a cashopper guild, that answers your question?) You have the best debuffs in game even if they are randoms, you can pass chi, I don't know how many time bramble legit saved my life cause stupid aps sin/bm killing themselves on me. You can remove chi from important target which keep them from using 2 spark AOEs...
Veno having bad support skills? ... lol learn to play your class, a sin can stealth someone while you can't do nothing? I never saw a sin doing it (fishes are too selfish to do anything to help people), you can stun, paralyze, silence target and you say you can't do anything to help? b:bye
EDIT: The only point I agree with what the OP said is that bramble should work in the open PVP and everywhere.
Now, my question is if you have tried to fight against 4 or 5 sage sins with gears +12 and beetween full josd to about half-way, or with those 2+ attack gems. Debuffing is useless 66% of the time, and they just go killing one ally after another, and all a veno can do is wait until purge cooldowns again...
Sometimes I go out of fox form but only to try to stun a sin, which of course fails 66% of the time.
As for chi burn, I love that skill, but sometimes I cry about how useless it became after this update. Bm's, who were my main target for burning chi, have a primal skill in the spear tree that allows them to recover their chi really fast. With that skill, even if I burn their chi, they can still get enough chi to use paralize. To really stop a bm from doing such thing you need to use it at least 2 times on the same bm...I wish there had been more venos.
And if you never saw a sin saving a an ally with stealth, then they must be noobs, btw.0 -
Azura - Lost City wrote: »Now, my question is if you have tried to fight against 4 or 5 sage sins with gears +12 and beetween full josd to about half-way, or with those 2+ attack gems. Debuffing is useless 66% of the time, and they just go killing one ally after another, and all a veno can do is wait until purge cooldowns again...
Sometimes I go out of fox form but only to try to stun a sin, which of course fails 66% of the time.
As for chi burn, I love that skill, but sometimes I cry about how useless it became after this update. Bm's, who were my main target for burning chi, have a primal skill in the spear tree that allows them to recover their chi really fast. With that skill, even if I burn their chi, they can still get enough chi to use paralize. To really stop a bm from doing such thing you need to use it at least 2 times on the same bm...I wish there had been more venos.
And if you never saw a sin saving a an ally with stealth, then they must be noobs, btw.
roll different class, like wizz
(sarcasm)
btw alot stuff was nerfed problem is to few class this was also buff/boost but to others no0 -
tbh, I don't think venos are in a terrible spot atm. If you manage a 0 pdef proc on someone, they're probably dead and purge+amp+chi burn are still very much needed.
It's just that sins are so ****ing OP now... b:surrender[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I
Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0 -
When you fight 5 or 6 anyclass it gets really nasty.
Ex, 5/6 venos or 5~6 mystics, 5~6 clerics
But indeed the 5~6 more OP are Barbs, BMs and Assassins.[S.E.V.C.H.E.N.K.O]
Synthetic Electronic Variant Calibrated for Hazardous Exploration, Nullification and Kamikaze Observation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »When you fight 5 or 6 anyclass it gets really nasty.
Ex, 5/6 venos or 5~6 mystics, 5~6 clerics
But indeed the 5~6 more OP are Barbs, BMs and Assassins.
mainly if popping sage deity sin with full buff(+tidal+deaden) with maze+ironguard powder then already dead half squishy
(would be nice atleast they would make ironguard poweder stun over antistun....)0 -
Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »mainly if popping sage deity sin with full buff(+tidal+deaden) with maze+ironguard powder then already dead half squishy
(would be nice atleast they would make ironguard poweder stun over antistun....)
No clue why a sin would pop with maze+Ironguard xD
Indeed sins with 40 atk lvls from chill is nasty and sage tidal protection is also. But you can clearly distinguish good sins from bad sins (And notice majority of sins are lame as hell)
And popping from stealth with maze steps+Ironguard is insanely noobish.[S.E.V.C.H.E.N.K.O]
Synthetic Electronic Variant Calibrated for Hazardous Exploration, Nullification and Kamikaze Observation[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »No clue why a sin would pop with maze+Ironguard xD
Indeed sins with 40 atk lvls from chill is nasty and sage tidal protection is also. But you can clearly distinguish good sins from bad sins (And notice majority of sins are lame as hell)
And popping from stealth with maze steps+Ironguard is insanely noobish.
idk, maybe because deity sin more squishy than josd and kill others faster than josd, maybe help to him the no silence reflect/no stun and immortality in next 12+5sec if use ad what could be enough for take down easily someone then stealth back then try again in
noobish but deity sage sins use it on my server, same like most of people use it just they forced burn genie (except bm/human barb) with fortify lv1distinguish good sins from bad sins
can't but can kill casters easily with r9 3rd+12 and S cards without worry, don't really need too much knownleadge and experience with that dmg...except if we talk sin vs heavy armor users, there more challenge but vs caster isn't, atleast if a sin lose vs caster in backstabbing with that refine and gear must be really ****, in my server i know 3 top sin, in nw don't existed anykind of caster who got chance, mostly same vs archer aswell0 -
Msdoomdesire - Sanctuary wrote: »2 facts before I begin:
-Idc how many times this has been asked for
-Idc if it won't change a thing
Make veno reflect usable in pk. The fact is that not allowing venos to use reflect in pk alone is unfair. Bramble hood is a 2 spark skill and the damage reduction does not justify 2 sparks. So what if sins kill themselves on it? Sins can learn to not spark on everything they see. People deal with all of the reflects in nw/tw and I rarely see anyone complain.
This would be a good way to make up for honestly giving venos the worst set of primal merges ever. I know a lot of venos that got the primal skills and the fact is that they aren't really happy about getting good skills... they are happy that they got something a tiny bit better to replace old utterly useless skills. Redwood is good for sages, but a nerf to demons. Grudge strike is the only okay skill, but most venos barely have times at which it would be worth using. So primal skills were quite useless.
Another thing is the fact that purge/debuffs are becoming obsolete. Seriously the skill is supposed to be able to remove all positive effects, but almost every buff now a days can't be purged.
Yes we have blazing barrier, but it's not anywhere near as good as bramble hood. Reflecting was just a basic part of venomancers just like stealth is a basic part of sins or the psychic reflect. It's not really asking for anything that can't be done. I would just like to see fairness considering venos are like the only class that has an important skill limited to nw/tw and yes I didn't say pve because it is obviously not meant for pve since mobs barely take any damage from reflect. That's all b:cute
Venos can use spirit of def to be with full buffs and purge the enemy so that they are unbuffed.Am Awesome b:victory
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
HESOKA - Raging Tide wrote: »Venos can use spirit of def to be with full buffs and purge the enemy so that they are unbuffed.
I've seen you pulling this in other threads too. Calm down ditch the attitude before you get yourself in real trouble.(Insert fancy image here)0 -
Wiht out good reason or BIG support I don't log Skill Update / Change Suggestions. Something i want to be able to trust the devs with doing the right thing.
Some skills are PvP and some are PvE im getting the feeling that these where made by reason. Unless we can have some strong argument for this im not going to Log this.
Thanks,0
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