Real Primal Archer skills, maybe

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · April 2014

Primal Quickshot

deal base damage, 75% of weapon damage, and 2500 damage to target

Increases Critstrike Rate by 20%

Gain 15 chi

Demon version has 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds
Sage version has 50% chance to increase channeling speed by 20% 6 seconds

Primal Stunning Arrow

deals base damage, 100% of weapon damage, and 3000 damage
Has a 96% chance to stun target for 3 seconds

Demon version increases rage damage by 10% for 10 seconds
Sage version increases stun duration to 5 seconds

Primal Shapened Tooth Arrow

deals base damage, 100% of weapon damage, and 3000 damage to targets in an 8 meter radius from the target
Decreases maximum HP of affected targets by 20% for 30 seconds

Demon version has 30% chance to reduce targets' physical defense by 25% for 10 seconds
Sage version decreases channeling to 1.5 seconds

Primal Blazing Arrow

adds 60% wep dmg of fire damage to attacks for 15 minutes

Sage version increases fire damage to 75%
Demon version flares for 20 seconds, giving an additional 75% wep damage
Demon version reduces channeling to 0.5 seconds and casting to 0.2 seconds

Jarkhen - Archosaur · April 2014

yespls

Socqar - Lost City · April 2014

I would charge zen just to have those implemented...

Oh well, dreaming is for free

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · April 2014

Rumors there are 2 more reawakenings to come, perhaps more new skills along?

I guess so.

To finish the touch of 'balance'.

I think frost splash could hit harder for its chi cost, or maybe cost no sparks at all.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

bump dammit

Zoldi - Morai · May 2014

I suppose that archers didn't get huge updates recently because R9.3 bow is too OP at endgame (most endgame people can't be killed except when purged, right?).
The ones that are f*cked up are the archers that don't have the R9.3 bow...

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

R9.3 CROSSbow would be OP endgame. Bow is ok for apsing i guess; not dph style and not having channel gears makes everything feel dumb and sluggish

trands · May 2014

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

I suppose that archers didn't get huge updates recently because R9.3 bow is too OP at endgame (most endgame people can't be killed except when purged, right?).
The ones that are f*cked up are the archers that don't have the R9.3 bow...

Any psychic would love to get their new poison dot, but no archer ever bothers to fire it. They should have kept the strong dots a psychic specialty and same for diminish vigor. Archers just refuse to use good skills anyway. It's sad to see such useful skills wasted on a class that only QQ's for getting them b:cry

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Primal Quickshot

deal base damage, 75% of weapon damage, and 2500 damage to target

Increases Critstrike Rate by 20%

Gain 15 chi

Demon version has 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds
Sage version has 50% chance to increase channeling speed by 20% 6 seconds

Primal Stunning Arrow

deals base damage, 100% of weapon damage, and 3000 damage
Has a 96% chance to stun target for 3 seconds

Demon version increases rage damage by 10% for 10 seconds
Sage version increases stun duration to 5 seconds

Primal Shapened Tooth Arrow

deals base damage, 100% of weapon damage, and 3000 damage to targets in an 8 meter radius from the target
Decreases maximum HP of affected targets by 20% for 30 seconds

Demon version has 30% chance to reduce targets' physical defense by 25% for 10 seconds
Sage version decreases channeling to 1.5 seconds

Primal Blazing Arrow

adds 60% wep dmg of fire damage to attacks for 15 minutes

Sage version increases fire damage to 75%
Demon version flares for 20 seconds, giving an additional 75% wep damage
Demon version reduces channeling to 0.5 seconds and casting to 0.2 seconds

i am pro rework for archer skills aswell...

but that 60% 75% or 100% weapon damage added is negligible (will add like 100-200 more damage or smt xD)

and 25% phys res debuff is not even negligible, with the next patch lvl 10 passives that debuff will be close to be a 0% debuff...

after lvl 10 passives, to have a real 25% phys res debuff you will need a 105% debuff added by skill:

target res pre-passives = 20000 -> 25% debuff = 15000

targer res after lvl 10 passives = 36000 -> 25% debuff = 31000

to get the target down to 15000 for a real 25% debuff, you will need a 105% debuff:

36000 - (20000*105%) = 15000

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

i am pro rework for archer skills aswell...

but that 60% 75% or 100% weapon damage added is negligible (will add like 100-200 more damage or smt xD)

and 25% phys res debuff is not even negligible, with the next patch lvl 10 passives that debuff will be close to be a 0% debuff...

after lvl 10 passives, to have a real 25% phys res debuff you will need a 105% debuff added by skill:

target res pre-passives = 20000 -> 25% debuff = 15000

targer res after lvl 10 passives = 36000 -> 25% debuff = 31000

to get the target down to 15000 for a real 25% debuff, you will need a 105% debuff:

36000 - (20000*105%) = 15000

No, a "real" 25% debuff would bring them from 36k down to 27k... you know, 75% of the original value:

36000 - (20000 * x) = 27000
9000 = 20000 * x
x = .45

So you're looking at a 45% debuff to get a "real" (which is a terrible word for this, but I'm going with it) debuff of 25%.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

No, a "real" 25% debuff would bring them from 36k down to 27k... you know, 75% of the original value:

36000 - (20000 * x) = 27000
9000 = 20000 * x
x = .45

So you're looking at a 45% debuff to get a "real" (which is a terrible word for this, but I'm going with it) debuff of 25%.

omg why do i everytime need to explain debuff mechanics...

debuff is applied on the base value, then the base value is improved by the passive defense buff that considers again the base value

have you ever asked yourself why on a full buffed target your debuff is so negligible?

cause all the buffs improve the base res value... (passive skills are buffs indeed)

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2014

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

omg why do i everytime need to explain debuff mechanics...

debuff is applied on the base value, then the base value is improved by the passive defense buff that considers again the base value

have you ever asked yourself why on a full buffed target your debuff is so negligible?

cause all the buffs improve the base res value... (passive skills are buffs indeed)

I understand quite well how debuff mechanics work, as would be fairly obvious if you had actually read my post.

You are claiming that a "real" 25% debuff should be reducing defenses to 75% of their pre-buff value, which is asinine. By that logic, you have:

no debuff: 36000 defense
"real" 0.005% debuff: 19999 defense

See the breakdown in logic here?

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

I understand quite well how debuff mechanics work, as would be fairly obvious if you had actually read my post.

You are claiming that a "real" 25% debuff should be reducing defenses to 75% of their pre-buff value, which is asinine. By that logic, you have:

no debuff: 36000 defense
"real" 0.005% debuff: 19999 defense

See the breakdown in logic here?

you prolly forgot how damage reduction scales respect to the p res - ele res value,

and also you forgot that before nh you had 90% cap now you have 95% and the resistance curve had been re-scaled,

so to have more or less the same debuff you could land before nh you have to reduce target resistance to the same value, to do that you need bigger debuffs...

Asterelle - Sanctuary · May 2014

I never liked the additive debuff mechanics in this game. Skills would behave a lot more consistently if a damage multiplying debuff (like extreme poison or BV) is used instead. The damage multiplying debuffs are a lot easier to understand and are equally effective in buffed / unbuffed pvp and pve.

XXHotXx - Morai · May 2014

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never liked the additive debuff mechanics in this game. Skills would behave a lot more consistently if a damage multiplying debuff (like extreme poison or BV) is used instead. The damage multiplying debuffs are a lot easier to understand and are equally effective in buffed / unbuffed pvp and pve.

+1
but this is a game feature that cant be that radically changed,

if we would translate all the debuffs into amps we would see f.e. stuff like genie spark being a 5-600% amp or demon ironwood a 1000% amp

i believe it would be just good if they would fix the debuff mechanic to always let the debuff be applied on the global value, and not on the base value,

moreover the global value thing, the debuff should be calculated after the buffs are calculated, and not before...

this way debuffs will do what are they supposed to do, and reduce the targets resistance value for his global amount percentage, even if target has passives and cleric\bm\base buffs

otherwise debuffs soon (after lvl 10 passives) just wont be part of the game anymore, cause of their negligibility (except for demon ironwood)

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

No, a "real" 25% debuff would bring them from 36k down to 27k... you know, 75% of the original value:

36000 - (20000 * x) = 27000
9000 = 20000 * x
x = .45

So you're looking at a 45% debuff to get a "real" (which is a terrible word for this, but I'm going with it) debuff of 25%.

Not really, these 25% refer to GEAR values, not to the total defense value.

So if my gears give 10k defenses, with cleric buff i'll have 16k defenses. With lv 10 Passive (80% more defense) this will be 16k + 8k (80% of my gear value) = 24k.

Now these 24k are my total defenses but my gear value is 10k. If I get a debuff for 25% I'll lose only 2,5k defenses thus reducing to 21,5k defense.

But that's not really negligible: It values cleric/bm buffs (thus giving veno's purge a stronger strategic value) and there are already debuffs rework: Venomancers ironwood is now for 180% on demon and 50% sage, Sage/Demon glacial spike now reduce 90% defense.

Hot just can't deal with the fact HIS class is not supposed to debuff as well as venos/bms are supposed to debuff, they just reworked skills to make the "debuffing" job more efficient for the classes really supposed to debuff and less efficient for other classes.

This makes tangling mire a lil' less overpowered for sins, But I do still use it and it is still very effective.

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2014

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not really, these 25% refer to GEAR values, not to the total defense value.

Trust me, I'm well aware of how debuff mechanics work. I clearly used current mechanics in the equation in my post. My point was, quite simply, that with the numbers he gave, a common-sense "25% debuff" (i.e. the way you would expect a 25% debuff to act) would reduce your defense to 75% of its post-buff value, not 75% of its pre-buff value as he was so absurdly suggesting.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver · May 2014

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Trust me, I'm well aware of how debuff mechanics work. I clearly used current mechanics in the equation in my post. My point was, quite simply, that with the numbers he gave, a common-sense "25% debuff" (i.e. the way you would expect a 25% debuff to act) would reduce your defense to 75% of its post-buff value, not 75% of its pre-buff value as he was so absurdly suggesting.

Yep... But debuff mechanics work like this:

You have 100% defense.
You have 180% defense with primals lv 10
You have 240% defense with cleric buff + primals lv 10
You have 300% defense with cleric + bm buff + primals lv 10

And.. You have 275% defense with all buffs+primals lv 10 PLUS a 25% debuff.

And THAT... Is how debuff mechanics work.

Except for OP debuffs like Cenequus Polearm (1000% pdef minus lol)

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Primal Quickshot

deal base damage, 75% of weapon damage, and 2500 damage to target

Increases Critstrike Rate by 20%

Gain 15 chi

Demon version has 50% chance to increase attack rate by 30% for 6 seconds
Sage version has 50% chance to increase channeling speed by 20% 6 seconds

sorry but that aint noticeable, why increase more the attack rate than channeling if when u increase the channeling still casting time+cooldown is same? maybe if u increase channeling by 50% than more compareable with 30% attack speed boost.... (other side critical also useless if they release 3rd rebirth and u reach base 90% crit chance

)

but boosting the skills i agree and rest of skills look like fair

Yep... But debuff mechanics work like this:

You have 100% defense.
You have 180% defense with primals lv 10
You have 240% defense with cleric buff + primals lv 10
You have 300% defense with cleric + bm buff + primals lv 10

And.. You have 275% defense with all buffs+primals lv 10 PLUS a 25% debuff.

And THAT... Is how debuff mechanics work.

Except for OP debuffs like Cenequus Polearm (1000% pdef minus lol)

he have right, 25% less gear defence not really noticeable

@Jarkhen
pls check this, this is based on facts, test, not random numbers from head - wizzard debuff mechanism udine strike and spark (60%,107% debuff) http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1691541

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

Only 20% channel because that is enough to make gameplay alot smoother, without making archers un-necessarily OP. Defending against non-**** 50% channel archer would require reflexes only found in people used to high channeling speeds and thus would make archers OP on PWI

Though I'm still hoping for -6 channel stones and r9rr crossbow with -10 channel instead of 0.1 interval b:avoid

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Only 20% channel because that is enough to make gameplay alot smoother, without making archers un-necessarily OP. Defending against non-**** 50% channel archer would require reflexes only found in people used to high channeling speeds and thus would make archers OP on PWI

Though I'm still hoping for -6 channel stones and r9rr crossbow with -10 channel instead of 0.1 interval b:avoid

how make archer op with 6-6-8 sec metal skill cooldowns? max u can do 3 metal skill in best ase with 6second (atleast wizzard was able to do 4 skill if not too laggy with 100% channeling for 6 sec), seeker also got 80% for 60 second and 100% sure, they op?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

Why metal skills? I never mentioned metal skills; metal skills aren't the only skills archers have. Or are you still stuck with the idea that Archer = autoattack?

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why metal skills? I never mentioned metal skills; metal skills aren't the only skills archers have. Or are you still stuck with the idea that Archer = autoattack?

so demon archer allways spam skill with demon quickshot?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

I said sage dartle 20% channel boose, demon dartle 30% aps boost

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I said sage dartle 20% channel boose, demon dartle 30% aps boost

aren't archer use autoattack for proc purge faster?

Or are you still stuck with the idea that Archer = autoattack?

btw u can use around 4 skill during 6 sec if server is 100% instant to u (i mean no delay/lagg in connection), else can use only 3 skill mostly if got a bit lagg

here example:
Thunderous Blast is 2.5sec+0.8=3.3, 20% reduction mean became 2.8sec, u got clearly +0.2sec free time, Thunder Shock is 1.5sec+0.8sec=2.3sec => 2sec, Stunning Arrow is 1.5+0.6=2.1 => 1.8,

3.3+2.3+2.1=7.7
2.8+2+1.8= 6.6

so overall reduced to 85.71% => u gained -14.28% speed for skill what enough for 3/4 skill

yes 14% faster skills equivalent with 30% faster autoattack what coz of base damage alot higher damage in dps term and more chance for purge, nice to be sage archer then

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

If you want to argue dps you have to argue filler skills, not CC, and any self respecting DPH Sin/Archer will use quick filler over long channeling mininukes (those R9rr sins randomly earthen rifting single targets...do not know what they are

Your math is entirely off due to not factoring in instant take aim (hold down hotkey, instantcast in 0.6 seconds, a skill with a real aps of 1.67)

Skill Channel Cast Sum

QS 1.0 0.6 1.6
TA*^ 0 0.6 0.6
KBA 0.8 0.6 1.4
FA+ 0.8 0.6 1.4
TA* 0 0.6 0.6
QS 0.8 0.6 1.4

Total 6 7.0s

APS 6/6.8 = 0.8571428571428571 ~ 0.87

Purge? 5/7 = 0.71 1.e. same proc rate as autoattacking at 0.71

1. No one is arguing that Demon QS isn't better dps/purge rate
2. Sage is about chi + CC + elemental skills + crit before endgame. If you just want a purge machine roll Demon
3. Your entire argument shows that you don't understand the fact that TA is instantcast by default every 3 sec by any competent Archer
4. A Sage attempting to purge (Assume R9rr with tome+Endgame (non-interval) robe) would be autoattacking at 0.87+instant TA, every 3 sec ~ 3 autoattack + 1 TA = 4 atk/3.21sec = 1.25 real aps, compared to 1.33 Demon QS proc
5. If we factoring Emperor Tome (-5%), R9r Ring (-6%) we would actually sit at -31%chan with the proposed proc, which would amend the table to

Skill Channel Cast Sum

QS 1.0 0.6 1.6
TA*^ 0 0.6 0.6
KBA 0.69 0.6 1.29
FA+ 0.69 0.6 1.29
TA* 0 0.6 0.6
QS 0.69 0.6 1.29

Total 6 6.67s

APS 6/6.67 = 0.8995502248875562 ~ 0.90

Purge? 5/6.67 = 0.7496251874062969 ~ 0.76

If we took your suggestion of 50% channel boost, at absolute endgame, assuming the Archer doesn't shard savants

Skill Channel Cast Sum

QS 1.0 0.6 1.6
TA*^ 0 0.6 0.6
KBA 0.49 0.6 1.09
FA+ 0.49 0.6 1.09
QS 0.49 0.6 1.09
TA* 0 0.6 0.6

Total 6 6.07s

APS 6/6.07 = 0.9884678747940692 ~ 1.00

Purge? 5/6.07 = 0.8237232289950577 ~ 0.80

1.00 APS skill damage pasive at level 10, guaranteed crit, with chance to heirobug (Archer "zerkcrit") every 3 seconds goes too far.

Realize that Sage - DPH is heavily reliant on using crossbow over bow, factoring skill addons + higher DPH + mastery (3%) + skill damage passive (14%), which would benefit upper middle class players the most (Higher refined G16 crossbow) while still giving R9rr Sage Archers a considerable boost (Their quickshot had no attack rate boost of any sort on it, previously)

Legend:
* Chance to heirobug
^Start of channeling buff
+Cannot purge

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you want to argue dps you have to argue filler skills, not CC, and any self respecting DPH Sin/Archer will use quick filler over long channeling mininukes (those R9rr sins randomly earthen rifting single targets...do not know what they are

Your math is entirely off due to not factoring in instant take aim (hold down hotkey, instantcast in 0.6 seconds, a skill with a real aps of 1.67)

1. No one is arguing that Demon QS isn't better dps/purge rate
2. Sage is about chi + CC + elemental skills + crit before endgame. If you just want a purge machine roll Demon
3. Your entire argument shows that you don't understand the fact that TA is instantcast by default every 3 sec by any competent Archer
4. A Sage attempting to purge (Assume R9rr with tome+Endgame (non-interval) robe) would be autoattacking at 0.87+instant TA, every 3 sec ~ 3 autoattack + 1 TA = 4 atk/3.21sec = 1.25 real aps, compared to 1.33 Demon QS proc
5. If we factoring Emperor Tome (-5%), R9r Ring (-6%) we would actually sit at -31%chan with the proposed proc, which would amend the table to

APS 6/6.67 = 0.8995502248875562 ~ 0.90

Purge? 5/6.67 = 0.7496251874062969 ~ 0.76

If we took your suggestion of 50% channel boost, at absolute endgame, assuming the Archer doesn't shard savants

APS 6/6.07 = 0.9884678747940692 ~ 1.00

Purge? 5/6.07 = 0.8237232289950577 ~ 0.80

1.00 APS skill damage pasive at level 10, guaranteed crit, with chance to heirobug (Archer "zerkcrit") every 3 seconds goes too far.

Realize that Sage - DPH is heavily reliant on using crossbow over bow, factoring skill addons + higher DPH + mastery (3%) + skill damage passive (14%), which would benefit upper middle class players the most (Higher refined G16 crossbow) while still giving R9rr Sage Archers a considerable boost (Their quickshot had no attack rate boost of any sort on it, previously)

Legend:
* Chance to heirobug
^Start of channeling buff
+Cannot purge

well even not 50% but higher atleast 40% or 10sec duration for channeling not 6 sec.

( instant take aim sucks damage)

herio bug is 1 thing, i doubt by years they didnt fix it like flesh ream bug.

another side u talke about 14% skill damage increase but no about +56% defence what make it egually but if comapere with autoatatck there another factors and since not too much skills multiplicate the archer base damage and most of them just minor weapon dmg+fixed dmg after base dmg idk if u soo too high difference when test it.

Where is in game gr16 xbow? i know only nirvy xbow what is g15 what is 1067-2488 (+1312) dmg vs r9 3rd bow what is 1410-2619 (+1312)

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · May 2014

( instant take aim sucks damage)

........k I am done with this conversation. Impossible to argue archer mechanics if you don't even understand the most basic part of archer dph (instant take aim, which is what makes skillspam come out like aps)

G16 crossbow: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/34771

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · May 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

........k I am done with this conversation. Impossible to argue archer mechanics if you don't even understand the most basic part of archer dph (instant take aim, which is what makes skillspam come out like aps)

G16 crossbow: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/34771

ah the random one who got less 20-25 attack level than end game bow?
it is really compareable if that much attack level loss vs 3rd...
and i dont got how take aim make like aps after 1. got cooldown-3sec+minor server delay (this not unimportant after if u see when archer autoattack u and u caster and reicive hit after seal) not like autoattack, 2. its do similiar dmg than normal attack if u do instant, well a bit higher but ty to min/max dmg not too noticeable (atleast that showed my little archer with tt99 xbow)

Real Primal Archer skills, maybe

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