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Sins more broken than ever before?

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  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    On behalf of every Psychic and Blademaster in the history of forever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWHMb3JxmE

    Sins generate chi at a very fast rate, but tell me how usefull is a sin with NO chi? We can expend it just as fast as we use it. That is the only point i have to make.

    As for bhavvy, master lee's technique is for sage sins only, and shadow escape is generally used for disengaging. What count it in a lock rotation?

    As for using IG twice as much, please point to me where i said you should use IG twice as much, please do, I beg of you. As for playing other classes in the game, you don't know me bro. I can probably play your archer better than you do. The only classes i can't claim to know how to play is a wiz and mystic, because i have no interest in them.

    Also let me show you your strawman.

    "archers have 2x the physical attack of sins"<--What i said.
    "You're obviously terribad at this one considering the fact you genuinely think archers hit twice as hard with exact same gear."<---What you said

    2x physical attack=/=hit twice as hard, it just means you have 2x more physical attack bro, nice try.

    GG.b:chuckle
  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Don't forget Wizzies, all of our usefull buffs cost chi+ our escape costs chi + most of the ways we kill people involves having 2 sparks

    Yes but you dont have to blow 2 sparks just to do decent damage. 2 sparks, vs 5-10 for 1 person. Sins require more chi, but they regenerate it quickly. It's apples to oranges.
  • XXHotXx - MoraiXXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You obviously have not played a sin to a good extent. We are only of the most chi dependant classes in the game. If I want to CC an opponent, 80% of the time I have to expend some sort of chi.

    rooooofllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

    you know that a wizard to land half of the damage done by a single Elimination (30 chi gain skill),

    needs 5 sparks? (3spark tea BT)

    b:laugh b:laugh
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  • HESOKA - Raging TideHESOKA - Raging Tide Posts: 169 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    So you're saying that you can only kill if a player is purged? ROFL. I would have took the time to read what you wrote, but seeing you stun yourself with IG on that vid of yours, umm, no, just no.

    By the way, I'm on Perfect World Syndicate. Come 1 vs 1 me with your psychic, as a fact I will not use sage tidal. If you die, quit pwi please.

    Accept the challenge ty.
    Am Awesome b:victory

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Longknife - HarshlandsLongknife - Harshlands Posts: 4,843 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Sins generate chi at a very fast rate, but tell me how usefull is a sin with NO chi? We can expend it just as fast as we use it. That is the only point i have to make.


    You don't get it. Back in the day a sin needed to lock and chain their ailments or they'd die. Even then this was considered laughably easymode because multiple ailments are easier to chain than one, AKA BM had it harder because an early stun breaks the chain.

    Now? Now you don't even need to stun. You can tank 100% without the ailments, and the excess chi goes towards triple sparking to enhance your damage and defense. Control skills have become obsolete for sins, which is madness considering any other class would kill for the CC sins have.
    So you're saying that you can only kill if a player is purged? ROFL. I would have took the time to read what you wrote, but seeing you stun yourself with IG on that vid of yours, umm, no, just no.

    The only vids I've uploaded where I stun myself with IG would either be one where I have a cleric on vent I can alert to purify (and do so) and another where Fetishes, an enemy psychic who was HIGHLY IG dependent (hid in white voodoo if IG wasn't up) just IGed vs me. If that moment vs. Fetishes is what you were referring to? Yes, there were alternatives, but I did that specifically to say "you can't do **** without IG" by simply saving mine to match his. Likewise, avoiding the stun by wasting genie energy would've been pointless as he himself was immune to damage, so the mobility wouldn't've helped me anyway. If I remember the clip, I COULD'VE retreated with white or something, but as I said wanted to keep my IG on time with his as a taunt.
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  • mynameiswizymynameiswizy Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    -100 throat cut
    -200 cursed jail/headhunt
    -200 subsea
    -35 deep sting
    -535 chi

    +50 tackling slash
    +150 rising dragon
    +200 inner harmony
    +400 chi

    lolz you forget Shadow Escape as +100 chi.


    and sure every class need chi/sparks to secure the kill
    so thats like free CC and High Damage Skill for sin while other class need 'extra work' for chi in the first place

    is that your point ?


    and now with passive buff yes I think sin is broken even more in fullbuffed
    Sin tank. Sin kill. Sin escape. broken.
    maybe if Tidal Protection and Deaden Nerve need a spark or some chi
    that will be better
  • Asterelle - SanctuaryAsterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Sins generate chi at a very fast rate, but tell me how usefull is a sin with NO chi? We can expend it just as fast as we use it. That is the only point i have to make.
    Sins have tons of nonsense that doesnt require any chi. The stupidly high damage Elimination gives you chi. Life hunter gives you chi. The free +40 attack level from Deep Chill gives you chi. The free damage from Wolf Emblem gives you chi. Tackling slash gives you chi. Defensive moves like force stealth gives you chi. Debuffs like spell cutter and rib strike give you chi.

    If you think a sin without chi can't do anything you're either lying or an idiot.
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  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited April 2014

    Sins have tons of nonsense that doesnt require any chi. The stupidly high damage Elimination gives you chi. Life hunter gives you chi. The free +40 attack level from Deep Chill gives you chi. The free damage from Wolf Emblem gives you chi. Tackling slash gives you chi. Defensive moves like force stealth gives you chi. Debuffs like spell cutter and rib strike give you chi.

    If you think a sin without chi can't do anything you're either lying or an idiot.

    Does every sin have elimination? I have only seen sage punture one time in my 6 years of playing PWI. ONCE!

    Wolf emblem give 8 chi, not even enough to use deep sting.
    Do you even know what the cd of chill is? It's not short.

    Come to think of it did you even read what I said? I said if sins didnt have high chi regeneration, what would the class be able to do as far as killing targets quicky? So far only the rich, or the lucky have life hunter and elimination, so dont even get me started on that. Hopefully I can get them myself when the books arent running 150m+.
  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You don't get it. Back in the day a sin needed to lock and chain their ailments or they'd die. Even then this was considered laughably easymode because multiple ailments are easier to chain than one, AKA BM had it harder because an early stun breaks the chain.

    Now? Now you don't even need to stun. You can tank 100% without the ailments, and the excess chi goes towards triple sparking to enhance your damage and defense. Control skills have become obsolete for sins, which is madness considering any other class would kill for the CC sins have.

    Show me an endgame fight where a sin uses no tidal and no cc against 1, or multiple targets and wins. Is it even possible? Maybe if the other person was completely brain dead, sure.
  • trandstrands Posts: 2
    edited April 2014
    Most of the complaints are Longknife, Archers and Clerics. It's quite obvious those would complain about just any sin upgrade. Before New Horizons, sins were just weak and they needed an upgrade. Elimination overdid it, but I don't find it's as horrible as said above tbh.

    Longknife complains because he's Longknife. Honestly, a sin destroying a whole squad is just a gear (and TW experience) issue. To really survive that much, the sin needs to have very good armor. If the said squad had that kind of gear, the sin wouldn't faceroll 1shot half a squad in the time of an immunity. Especially since a sin will be out of reach of any form of support 90% of the time.

    Clerics (and the mythical mystics) are 1 of the main targets of sins. It's the only class that can comfortably reach them and they now hit harder. They are the 1st class to notice any improvement on sins. But let's face it, clerics have been way to spoiled since several updates. They always were a supporting class with great 1 target control, but now they also got some of the best magic dps and amazing debuff skills that imo shouldn't be on a cleric.

    Archers are a main target I send my sins to when squad leader. They still hurt more then sins. And while it's true they are 1vs1 squishier, their range is a huge advantage that allows them to still be in range of support. They hurt so much more then sins with a chance to purge on top of it and will be out of reach when they attack you. The only class that can comfortably reach them actually hurts them now. Maybe you get to realise how important your range really is. You got 1 class that actually hurts without having a free 3+ hits on them.
  • Auerlius - ArchosaurAuerlius - Archosaur Posts: 226 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    trands wrote: »
    Most of the complaints are Longknife, Archers and Clerics. It's quite obvious those would complain about just any sin upgrade. Before New Horizons, sins were just weak and they needed an upgrade. Elimination overdid it, but I don't find it's as horrible as said above tbh.

    Longknife complains because he's Longknife. Honestly, a sin destroying a whole squad is just a gear (and TW experience) issue. To really survive that much, the sin needs to have very good armor. If the said squad had that kind of gear, the sin wouldn't faceroll 1shot half a squad in the time of an immunity. Especially since a sin will be out of reach of any form of support 90% of the time.

    Clerics (and the mythical mystics) are 1 of the main targets of sins. It's the only class that can comfortably reach them and they now hit harder. They are the 1st class to notice any improvement on sins. But let's face it, clerics have been way to spoiled since several updates. They always were a supporting class with great 1 target control, but now they also got some of the best magic dps and amazing debuff skills that imo shouldn't be on a cleric.

    Archers are a main target I send my sins to when squad leader. They still hurt more then sins. And while it's true they are 1vs1 squishier, their range is a huge advantage that allows them to still be in range of support. They hurt so much more then sins with a chance to purge on top of it and will be out of reach when they attack you. The only class that can comfortably reach them actually hurts them now. Maybe you get to realise how important your range really is. You got 1 class that actually hurts without having a free 3+ hits on them.

    um you are on the same crack pwi and the devs are is i see. i play ALL toons. as a competitive player game balance was intrinsiclly important to me. if i play as the david too, how do i know if i developed true skiil at playing david, if compared to me all the other classes are like goliath? also i don't even wc for squads anymore. why? a billion sins answer before one or two of anything else. why? sin so overpowered even the incompetent ones ca delude themselves into thinking they are so great based on running a series a cc's and ending in the elim-hunter combo. these days i am causally playing this game. if that, funny enough i have more fun debating trrolls and geniuses that try to say the game is great as is and that everything is balanced cause they invested on the cheapest toon in the game and don't want pwi to blance things out cause they can't afford another toon.
  • Longknife - HarshlandsLongknife - Harshlands Posts: 4,843 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Show me an endgame fight where a sin uses no tidal and no cc against 1, or multiple targets and wins. Is it even possible? Maybe if the other person was completely brain dead, sure.

    1) I like how you conveniently include "no tidal" as if you've never in your life learned the scientific method, learning that you try to have only one variable with everything else a control. Let alone have you even been listening as that one is cited as a cornerstone of the problem. You basically just said "have a sin fight without the stuff you just cited as problematic and they're totally weaksauce and balanced." Gee, how insightful!

    2) Sadly, I probably could. You are aware sin is a class where you can attack before even being noticed, right? And that the devs just handed you a skill that oneshots more consistently than any other skill in the game by a longshot? I've tanked a BT, I've tanked a perdition. I've tanked both of those simply by having buffs or the right charms up, and I'm a squishy-as-balls Psychic. Elimination? I've tanked it but a few times (without Psy will) and those few times involved me timing SoR and my physical charm ever so carefully to tank the final hit, and even THEN I recall needing to run or Psy will ASAP because that cost me a charm tick and then left me with 4k HP remaining.

    A lot of people in this thread are likely thinking back to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsYUuOdulB8

    Find Elimination on his skillbar. Found it? Good. Stare at it. Every time it comes off cooldown and he uses it, count the death-to-survivor ratio. Here, I'll even do it with you and edit this post once I've finished counting.


    So here's the kill count for Elimination in that video:

    31 kills

    4 inconclusive AKA NOT included in the kills or failures lists (guy dies and dies near the end of Elimination, but so much stuff on him, can't tell if responsible; another, the target magically disappears as if DC. Another cata barb gets hit by it and while it doesn't die, it's such a cluster**** you can't tell the damage, impact or if the barb had turtle. Same barb dies again with this skill going off but impact is unclear)

    12 failures, namely:

    cleric IGs same exact moment he teleports to her.
    Cleric then ADs the final shot of the second attempt with barely any life left, then immediately dies after AD to other skills.
    A second cleric with plume shell survives and makes a full retreat.
    Another wizard (?) survives with what's literally a sliver of health, attempts a trip spark, then dies.
    Archer happens to cast WoG as he's attacked with it, full retreats.
    Another does the same.
    Psychic IGs.
    Cleric that retreated before again survives, IGs, SoGs and disappears.
    He then attempts it on a cata barb without checking for turtle <---basically human error responsible here.
    An archer survives with a sliver of health and ADs. If she died after is unclear but she does end up stunned with a charm tick.
    Archer survives with a sliver of health and leaps away, immediately dies to Rinc's knife throw
    Wizard ADs moment he gets close.


    Kills worthy of note:

    The same cleric to survive Elimination twice is later immobilized, stunned and lined up for Elimination with no resistance and does NOT survive.
    Some archers or DDs notably begin triple sparking or WoGing when he teleports to or near them. Twice this is simply waited on, THEN comes Elimination and the target dies all the same.
    A Psy is tele'd to, IGs, hits the sin for just under 2k, decides to trip spark so he can hit 4.4ks, then dies to elimination.


    So let's be clear on a couple things:

    -That skill has a 72% chance of getting a kill, according to this sample video. A single skill; one keystroke, has a 72% chance of winning a 1v1.

    -Know what percent of his targets neither died nor didn't use some vital form of defense such as AD, Psy will, IG, or some other full damage immunity/massive damage redux? 0%. 100% of his targets either died or used a vital form of defense that requires heavy resources. And kindly rewatch and check the amount of people NEAR him that suddenly trip spark or AD or the like, likely out of anticipation of being hit by him.

    -While Elimination has a 15 second cooldown, IG and AD have lengthy cooldowns, Psy will has a 30 second cooldown and costs a spark, Wings of Grace is the same, triple spark is obviously a taxing defense, Barb turtle is 30 seconds and two sparks, and the only noteworthy form of defense that doesn't have comparatively taxing costs, is somewhat spammable that was effective in some way was Plume Shell, and even that has 30 second cooldown, quickly loses it's shine in group events and basically requires an MP charm in this context.
    Basically, should you survive this, should you be in that 28%? You have 15 seconds before it's gonna happen again, and you probably don't have a defense left...

    -These are only kills with Elimination. We're not even discussing the damage done by other skills in between, such as several effective Subsea Strike + Earthen Rift combos near the end.

    -We are not even discussing his defenses here. Watch his damage log, see how many names you see pop up at any given time and see the damage they're dealing compared to his HP. Find the part where a Psy trip sparks and only manages 4ks. Find his singular death and take a look at the damage log: 12 people in his damage log, highest singular hit is a 5.7k by a Psychic, the others do NOT really go above 3k hits save for 1-2, and the same Psy that hit 5.7k also hits 2.7k and consecutive 3ks; the 5.7k may have damned well been a crit. If any Lost City users could let us know how well geared KindaBusy is just so that we have some idea of the attack vs. defense ratio going on here, that'd be great.


    And let's do the math: 5 Aqua's and Spirits in the duration of 10 seconds aka a charm tick. Uninterrupted, we could expect that Psy to deal about 36k within 10 seconds, just barely enough to kill him whilst NOT managing the first charm tick due to Deaden Nerves. BASICALLY unless that Psy gets absolutely free shots at that sin with no resistance whatsoever, she's not killing him within a charm tick. Mind you, we're talking about a primary DD class with good DPS that managed to hit harder than all other classes on him in this sample video; AKA we're taking a pretty deadly class as our sample and the math is adding up to make the kill look IMPOSSIBLE for the Psy if the sin is focused on the Psy and not dumb as balls; TF would a BM or a veno do?. I WOULD recommend Diminished Vigor, except Tidal resists that too. And unfortunately, of course, sin is perhaps -THE- most in-your-face, taxing-on-enemy-resources class in the game, with multiple ways to interrupt damage output, let alone kill you as you attempt to kill them.



    My complaint with this thread wasn't even so much Elimination. Sins have always been pretty good at dropping singular targets, so a basically guarenteed death? Meh whatever.

    My complaint is the defenses and how taxing a singular sin is on an entire enemy force, resource-wise. My complaint more than anything would be scenes like the 2:50 mark. Moments like that is when the enemy force has 12 DDs ready to fire at will because their opponents are completely distracted. 12 to 1 ratios are beyond ridiculous.
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  • trandstrands Posts: 2
    edited April 2014
    um you are on the same crack pwi and the devs are is i see.

    Try it too then, you'll get more kills and die less then when you stay QQ'ing like you've been doing for ages b:laugh Some classes got nerfed, but cleric has become way more powerful since Morai came out. If you feel like a "David" vs every class, that's not cleric related.
    -That skill has a 72% chance of getting a kill, according to this sample video. A single skill; one keystroke, has a 72% chance of winning a 1v1.

    If you really want to compare, look at how it was before New Horizons. I don't know the gear of the players seen in the vid, but how many of the kills would have been 1shot from any DD with same gear as the shown sin?
  • Longknife - HarshlandsLongknife - Harshlands Posts: 4,843 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    trands wrote: »
    If you really want to compare, look at how it was before New Horizons. I don't know the gear of the players seen in the vid, but how many of the kills would have been 1shot from any DD with same gear as the shown sin?

    Hence why I'd like Lost city to weigh in.

    That cleric that survived twice is by no means ungeared, and I suspect KindaBusy must at least have a decent weapon as Rinc singles her out a couple times like she's a key opponent. I could be wrong, mind you.


    But arguing "it's balanced if they're all equal geared!!!" doesn't accomplish much, does it? That's like saying Psys are balanced when equal geared (true) back when Psys were new and several CSers r9 +12'ed them to become immortal gods that 90% of the community died to reflect to.
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  • XXHotXx - MoraiXXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    trands wrote: »
    Try it too then, you'll get more kills and die less then when you stay QQ'ing like you've been doing for ages b:laugh Some classes got nerfed, but cleric has become way more powerful since Morai came out. If you feel like a "David" vs every class, that's not cleric related.



    If you really want to compare, look at how it was before New Horizons. I don't know the gear of the players seen in the vid, but how many of the kills would have been 1shot from any DD with same gear as the shown sin?

    Assassins were not underpowered before New Horizons lol they still had heavy DPH and ******n sage tidal,
    and it was fine imo a good sin could've done his legit job in any kind of pvp situation...

    now assassin class is just **** op, i mean 320% base phys damage skill... while all the other classes got nothing and debuffs had been cutted by more than half efficiency... seriously???!?!
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  • PanboyAir - SanctuaryPanboyAir - Sanctuary Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I haven't posted on my main because I can't decide on a 105 Venomancer forum avatar.b:cute

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  • trandstrands Posts: 2
    edited April 2014
    Hence why I'd like Lost city to weigh in.

    That cleric that survived twice is by no means ungeared, and I suspect KindaBusy must at least have a decent weapon as Rinc singles her out a couple times like she's a key opponent. I could be wrong, mind you.


    But arguing "it's balanced if they're all equal geared!!!" doesn't accomplish much, does it? That's like saying Psys are balanced when equal geared (true) back when Psys were new and several CSers r9 +12'ed them to become immortal gods that 90% of the community died to reflect to.

    Unbalanced gear has always been a bigger factor then culti or classes. Maybe arguing "it's balanced if they're all equal geared!!!" doesn't accomplish much, but arguing "elimination can 1shot so many while sage tidal makes him immortal" while any class could have done the same thing in that setup does just as little.

    I also think they overdid it with sins, but not by far as exagerated as this thread makes it seem. And as psychic, I still hate archers more then sins b:chuckle
    Assassins were not underpowered before New Horizons lol they still had heavy DPH and ******n sage tidal,
    and it was fine imo a good sin could've done his legit job in any kind of pvp situation...

    now assassin class is just **** op, i mean 320% base phys damage skill... while all the other classes got nothing and debuffs had been cutted by more than half efficiency... seriously???!?!

    Pre-New Horizons you were saying how sins couldn't hit you for more then 2k zc when just self buffed (or maybe that was just towards 1 specific person?). I could even dig up the link where you were forum-fighting about that with 1 of the Morai sins, but that would be taken out by mods here anyway.
  • XXHotXx - MoraiXXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    trands wrote: »
    Unbalanced gear has always been a bigger factor then culti or classes. Maybe arguing "it's balanced if they're all equal geared!!!" doesn't accomplish much, but arguing "elimination can 1shot so many while sage tidal makes him immortal" while any class could have done the same thing in that setup does just as little.

    I also think they overdid it with sins, but not by far as exagerated as this thread makes it seem. And as psychic, I still hate archers more then sins b:chuckle



    Pre-New Horizons you were saying how sins couldn't hit you for more then 2k zc when just self buffed (or maybe that was just towards 1 specific person?). I could even dig up the link where you were forum-fighting about that with 1 of the Morai sins, but that would be taken out by mods here anyway.

    you know that 2k hits on my 16k hp were actually 1/8 of my hps?

    and not that i could hit the full buffed sin more than 1/8 of his hps back or either purge him or CC him in place to be able to chain hits...

    sins were kind of fine, they were good in mass pvp and one of the best in 1on1
    now they are undisputed best in mass pvp and in 1on1

    if you give elimination damage to any other class, i would call that any other class OP...

    i mean, a CC skill that deal 320% damage (if the sin 3sparks it the damage output is even more insane heard about 480% base damage) and makes u gain 30 chi 15 seconds cooldown?

    i repeat a wizard to reach kind of 300% base damage value needs to do a 3spark blade tempest
    (and that costs 500 chi to the wizard)

    is that fair to you?
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  • Nudimmud - Lost CityNudimmud - Lost City Posts: 175 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    KindaBusy is full +12 full NW gear, r9 third cast, with JoSD and a very impressive card set. KB is easily one of the top 5 gear wise psychics on the server, if not the top one.

    Anyone else you would like to know the gear of from LC?

    Edit: Just for reference, to that video, I'd say 85%+ of the people in there are r9 third cast and above geared, if not 95%, and after rewatching it Rinc doesn't target any of the ones that may be questionable.
  • trandstrands Posts: 2
    edited April 2014
    KindaBusy is full +12 full NW gear, r9 third cast, with JoSD and a very impressive card set. KB is easily one of the top 5 gear wise psychics on the server, if not the top one.

    Anyone else you would like to know the gear of from LC?

    Edit: Just for reference, to that video, I'd say 85%+ of the people in there are r9 third cast and above geared, if not 95%, and after rewatching it Rinc doesn't target any of the ones that may be questionable.

    Seems Longknife's 72% was pretty accurate then.

    I guess I'm lucky or never to get targeted by sins b:laugh Or Morai archers are better then the sins.
  • DionDagger - DreamweaverDionDagger - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,140 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    "have a sin fight without the stuff you just cited as problematic and they're totally weaksauce and balanced." Gee, how insightful!

    You are aware that you stated that a sin doesn't even need the things you find so 'problematic'. So prove to me a sin doesn't need them. Until then, the class needs these 'problematic' features, just like yours needs your 'problematic features'. Don't even get me started on SoS.


    You keep saying a sin doesn't need heavy CC, or tidal for that matter, to win a fight, so please provide to me a fight where a sin(equally end game geared as the opponent) does not need those to win. Until then you are just blowing smoke in my face.

    EDIT: I've taken a good look at the video, and watched it about 5 times now. This person seems, SEEMS, to heavily out gear his opponents. If you lack sufficient attack levels while hitting a jaded opponent you will do **** for damage. This is is no different for any class, but sins do not lack attack levels, they lack physical attack, which is why some of use spark so much. I used to hit jaded AA toons for like 700 regular (no zerk or crit), now i hit them for like 1.7k (no zerk or crit), because I added 40+ attack levels to my sin. I can't speak for the people in this video, but this seems to be the case, and if a sin out gears you, it's hard to rely on damage **** to stop them. Even more apparent is he focused unbuffed/slightly buffed targets.
  • Bhavyy - Raging TideBhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Clearly you're unaware about how the mechanics of the game works.
    Tidal is a pretty broken buff. It's basically like a mini purify spell. If you can't understand how one skill can change the whole balance of the class then I don't really know why you're here trying to defend sins with all your might.
    Obviously you feel sins do need defending as a class because perhaps you do realise how stupidly OP they are. Otherwise all you're doing is QQing that everyone thinks sins are broken. You're probably just really bad if you're struggling this much vs other classes with the same gear.
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  • Longknife - HarshlandsLongknife - Harshlands Posts: 4,843 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    KindaBusy is full +12 full NW gear, r9 third cast, with JoSD and a very impressive card set. KB is easily one of the top 5 gear wise psychics on the server, if not the top one.

    Am I allowed to say "I rest my case" now?

    THIS gear hit an endgame sin (assuming equally geared to KindaBusy) for an average of 3k and consistently got oneshot by the same sin. I even derped on my math before; it's impossible for KindaBusy to surpass his charm tick even if he does nothing; 10 seconds = 5 hits = 15k, not 30k. KindaBusy would require a Trip Spark, Tide Spirit, hella lucky crits or for Diminished Vigor to actually land somehow.
    I <3 AGOREY
  • Zoldi - MoraiZoldi - Morai Posts: 1,595 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    trands wrote: »
    I guess I'm lucky or never to get targeted by sins b:laugh Or Morai archers are better then the sins.

    The main advantages an archer would have against someone, compared to a sin, are huge range, leaps and the ability to purge with their main weapon.
    Anyway, even if I don't want to digress too much about something specific to one server, you should also take into account the following facts :
    - If you look at the top geared players on our Morai server, I would say that more than 25% are archers. If you look at the top 20-25 it could even be 40% maybe.
    - Then think about who is the best sin in our server (or the top3-5) and now list the archers that have better gears than this/those sin(s)
    - The most famous sin in our server is often solo in NW while the best (geared) archers often play with (OP) squads
    - Last but not least, I'm not sure that a lot of sins have the new upgraded skills on Morai so far.
    ~ Sage Mystic 105-105-105 ~
    ~ Sage Sin 103-103-102 ~
    ~ Sage vita Barb 103-102-101 ~
    ~ Sage BM 102-101 ~ Demon Archer 102 ~
    ~ Sage Cleric 102 ~ Demon Wizard 101 ~
    ~ Sage Seeker 101 ~ Sage Psy 101 ~
    ~ Sage Heavy Veno 101 ~ Demon Storm 9X ~ Dusk 6x ~
    Started playing this game in 2007 on Oracle (PW-MY) : Demon MG 101 - Sage EP 99 - WF 89
  • trandstrands Posts: 2
    edited April 2014
    The main advantages an archer would have against someone, compared to a sin, are huge range, leaps and the ability to purge with their main weapon.
    Anyway, even if I don't want to digress too much about something specific to one server, you should also take into account the following facts :
    - If you look at the top geared players on our Morai server, I would say that more than 25% are archers. If you look at the top 20-25 it could even be 40% maybe.
    - Then think about who is the best sin in our server (or the top3-5) and now list the archers that have better gears than this/those sin(s)
    - The most famous sin in our server is often solo in NW while the best (geared) archers often play with (OP) squads
    - Last but not least, I'm not sure that a lot of sins have the new upgraded skills on Morai so far.

    I'm pretty sure said sin has it. There is also that Deity sin that should have it. Now I wonder, did you really consider he can simply faceroll you now? Like kill you without you being able to do something.

    According to this thread, I should be almost instant death whenever a sin with r9.3 +12 daggers and elimination pups on the map. For 1shotting they don't need to be skilled. I know the one you mention is often drunk, but if he could kill me of a map as easily as stated in this thread, he would.

    The skill will get more common now, so I'll see if it's really going to change ...
  • XXHotXx - MoraiXXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    trands wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure said sin has it. There is also that Deity sin that should have it. Now I wonder, did you really consider he can simply faceroll you now? Like kill you without you being able to do something.

    According to this thread, I should be almost instant death whenever a sin with r9.3 +12 daggers and elimination pups on the map. For 1shotting they don't need to be skilled. I know the one you mention is often drunk, but if he could kill me of a map as easily as stated in this thread, he would.

    The skill will get more common now, so I'll see if it's really going to change ...

    said sin has 95% same gears of what Rinc has, and its hilarious how Rinc solos cata squads while said sin dies in 1on1 to a non-sharded barb
    its not just a matter of knowing\how to play the class, its also a matter of not having a proper "vision" of the teamfight and knowing how far you can go with the herpderp elimination-dead-tab-shadow jump-life hunter-elimination-dead-tab in safety before you get caught by heavy AA

    said deity sin 2-shotted from stealth a 50k hp 100 def level barb and barb died w\o even damage log in nation wars
    said deity sin gave me an elmination with last hit 16k bypass on full buffs...
    i mean not even tanking the seeker combo on self buffs from the best seeker in game (Ak one) gave me that much damage

    (fyi @ some point in that vid Rinc kills few r9s then kills Flash_man that is actually a almost full josd cata barb, that sh.t is OP)
    mypers.pw/1.7/#123510
    mypers.pw/1.7/#123524

    i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg
  • DEMHEALSMAN - DreamweaverDEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,396 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Am I allowed to say "I rest my case" now?

    THIS gear hit an endgame sin (assuming equally geared to KindaBusy) for an average of 3k and consistently got oneshot by the same sin. I even derped on my math before; it's impossible for KindaBusy to surpass his charm tick even if he does nothing; 10 seconds = 5 hits = 15k, not 30k. KindaBusy would require a Trip Spark, Tide Spirit, hella lucky crits or for Diminished Vigor to actually land somehow.

    Lets assume 2 completely equally geared/sharded/refined psy and sin. Both R9rr, both full JoSD, psy has pdef neck, p.attack ring +12 for the pdef, sin has mdef neck and m.attack ring+12 for the mdef.

    So what is the total amount of attack/def levels the psy has, and what are the attack/def levels on the sin?

    Sage psy will gain 25 attack levels, loses 8 def levels
    Sage sin will gain 40 attack levels (if primal), lose nothing. well attack speed but that's non-factor.
    Sage sin will get to keep all his def levels.

    15 attack levels more than the psy and 8 def levels less for the psy on end game granted the psy is sage and is using black voodoo. Which would be 23% more damage for the sin (yes I know, diminishing returns thingy, someone else do the calculations, I forgot how it went, I am aware it's probably not exactly 23%, but still the psy will take more damage)

    Take in account the primal defense passives, the sin may have equal mdef to as the psy's pdef.

    In the end then, yes, the sin will hit harder on the psy.

    If you were to put up a test scenario with the following:
    Sin uses chill and slipstream strike vs said psy in black voodoo, no crit, no zerk.
    Psy uses spirit blast vs said sin in black voodoo, no crit.

    The psy SHOULD STILL do more damage than the sin.
    If the sin were to crit, the damage SHOULD be +/- equal
    If the sin were to crit-zerk, the damage should be in the sin's favour.

    The damage -SHOULD- be like that due to the way refines work, the psy's magic attack will be a lot higher than the sin's physical attack.

    To be honest I think people should do more test-scenario's before shouting a skill or class is OP or not.

    I've said it before, if people want tidal to change, then what would you change it to, what would you replace it with?
    You can't just take away a defensive skill and expect nothing in return, a high refined psy has a rediculous proc rate on soul of silence, would you give up on that in exchange? Would you give up on the rediculous time soul of stunning would stun someone? Would you give up the rediculous purify proc for the nerfed one that R8r weapons can get?

    I might be missing a few points, but my brain is currently not fully functional.
    Soon™
    Well, maybe later, semi-retired.
  • kacprowiczkacperkacprowiczkacper Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I am a sin and I confess these new Primal skills are insanly OPed. Certainly too much.
    But I think it is not as bad as all want to say. Before these skills, there were two scenarios possible for sins:

    -Either they go for ful Deity and hit hard, sins were able to be very dangerous for any classes but they can be one-shooted as hell.
    I mean they can be one shooted by any class in G16 with great refines or by any full r9.
    -Or they go for full JoSD and they were able to survive a little bit longer but lose their damage ability and they are large less efficient.

    In these 2 scenarios, either they appeared on map and *poof* die, 1 sec of life every time, or they can survive 15 sec but get troubles to kill someone.
    That limits sin pvp possibilities.

    Now, with their new skills, a full JoSD sin (and there are not a lot of them because they went for the most to +attack level gems) can be in the same time someone who can survive a little bit and kill people.
    So sins became now a new pvp challenger.

    If you see all the topics, before they released these skills, which people asked for knowing which is the most dangerous class for pvp, there is absolutely no-one who said:
    "Sins for sure"

    All talked about barbs, seekers, psys, venos/mystics...according to the playstyle. But I don t remember there is someone who said "go for sins they are incredible" (I can be wrong, I will mea culpa if someone links me a post which contradicts me).

    So here is the situation now:
    Sins have become one of the most dangerous class in pvp since PWI released the primal skills. Is it so terrible?
    Before you could just launch a random skill on them and they die, now you have to learn more strategies to put them down.
    Is that bad? There is a new challenge, so try to learn how fight a sin. Let's try it.
    It should be the definition of assassin to be deadly.

    I have a lot of respects for the best geared characters in Morai.
    Hot, you are one of them. You are strong really strong. Now you have a new threaten class in front of you. I am pretty sure you ll learn quickly how put sins down.
    There is a little bit more challenges, and I am pretty sure you are quite excited by that perspective. You might die more often but you will be more excited in fights.
    As will do other OP guys!

    P.S. Today with DoD prices, it will be almost impossible to gear your char with full JoSD, so that big threat about sins will concern maybe one or two sins by server.
    So take a breath, winter is not coming yet. b:victory
  • XXHotXx - MoraiXXHotXx - Morai Posts: 1,246 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I am a sin and I confess these new Primal skills are insanly OPed. Certainly too much.
    But I think it is not as bad as all want to say. Before these skills, there were two scenarios possible for sins:

    -Either they go for ful Deity and hit hard, sins were able to be very dangerous for any classes but they can be one-shooted as hell.
    I mean they can be one shooted by any class in G16 with great refines or by any full r9.
    -Or they go for full JoSD and they were able to survive a little bit longer but lose their damage ability and they are large less efficient.

    In these 2 scenarios, either they appeared on map and *poof* die, 1 sec of life every time, or they can survive 15 sec but get troubles to kill someone.
    That limits sin pvp possibilities.

    Now, with their new skills, a full JoSD sin (and there are not a lot of them because they went for the most to +attack level gems) can be in the same time someone who can survive a little bit and kill people.
    So sins became now a new pvp challenger.

    If you see all the topics, before they released these skills, which people asked for knowing which is the most dangerous class for pvp, there is absolutely no-one who said:
    "Sins for sure"

    All talked about barbs, seekers, psys, venos/mystics...according to the playstyle. But I don t remember there is someone who said "go for sins they are incredible" (I can be wrong, I will mea culpa if someone links me a post which contradicts me).

    So here is the situation now:
    Sins have become one of the most dangerous class in pvp since PWI released the primal skills. Is it so terrible?
    Before you could just launch a random skill on them and they die, now you have to learn more strategies to put them down.
    Is that bad? There is a new challenge, so try to learn how fight a sin. Let's try it.
    It should be the definition of assassin to be deadly.

    I have a lot of respects for the best geared characters in Morai.
    Hot, you are one of them. You are strong really strong. Now you have a new threaten class in front of you. I am pretty sure you ll learn quickly how put sins down.
    There is a little bit more challenges, and I am pretty sure you are quite excited by that perspective. You might die more often but you will be more excited in fights.
    As will do other OP guys!

    P.S. Today with DoD prices, it will be almost impossible to gear your char with full JoSD, so that big threat about sins will concern maybe one or two sins by server.
    So take a breath, winter is not coming yet. b:victory

    yes i am always up for challenges but, how do i kill something i cant debuff, cant purge, cant CC

    while he can purge me, debuff me, cc me and most of all land 5digits hits on me..

    do i really need to heavily outspirit said sin just to be able to land non-negligible attacks?

    all the endgame classes can take their chances 1on1 except sins, cause basically sage tidal breaks any combo mechanic by any class, and elimination spams the damage comparable only to a 3spark blade tempest
    its really broken class...
    before NH we could take our chances against sins, now in the remote lucky case I land a debuff, that debuff its therefore nerfed by defense passives... :|

    they did this new paralyze to counter Arcane classes, now they should do something to counter/nerf at least sage tidal and elimination
    mypers.pw/1.7/#123510
    mypers.pw/1.7/#123524

    i58.tinypic.com/231jj8.jpg
  • kacprowiczkacperkacprowiczkacper Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    they did this new paralyze to counter Arcane classes, now they should do something to counter/nerf at least sage tidal and elimination

    On that point, I agree with you. But I think, the real problem is not Elimination or Life Hunter, the real problem is Sage Tidal. And if developpers modify Sage Tidal, I really wont be against that decision.

    Elimination can be counter easily if the sin is not on stealth, when the enemy sees me coming, he already prepare silence, sleep or stun skill to counter me. But there is Tidal and that's why Elimination seems awful for opponent.

    I am really more up to change Sage Tidal and let Elimination as it is rather than let Sage Tidal and change Elimination. It will be a really good challenging for other classes and for sins :)


    EDIT: For example: reduce the effective time of Sage tidal - from 60 sec to 40 sec and let the cooldown at 90 sec.
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