Two Questions for pwi veterans!

Balance? What balance?

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

Balance is where all classes are played, have a role, are better at different things and have their own strengths / weaknesses.

Exactly. Right now the balance isn't that bad. The biggest part is actually knowing your class and how your opponent works.

To add to that, most of the "game isn't balanced" QQ you hear here lately, is by those that super-leveled, bought their gear, and didn't bother to learn the mechanics along the way.

There's a reason that a 100 RB1 cleric with merely marginal gear can hold his own in TW/NW against R9 players. Sure I'll get one-shot sometimes, and sure there's some I can't take down. I'm a cleric for crying out loud. I expect that.

I'd say its heading more towards squad vs squad.

1v1s aren't remotely balanced, PVE is a joke with the gear/refine progression, and I cant exactly speak for TW.

As for what it should be balanced around? None of those aspects should be a sole balancing point. Everyone should have some degree of chance to kill each other PvP wise (group or alone) and PvE shouldn't be so easily bested just because one outgears the instance, but reward coordination, knowledge and adaptability.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

such bs.

BARBS>SINS>ARCHERS>PSY>SEEKERS>TRASH [er, i mean the other classes]

that is the order, they try to lie about a a->b->c system. but it is not balanced that way now nor has it ever been.

I can hold my own acainst one or two R9 sins. The only real issue with barbs is Armageddon and the fact that they have too much HP for me to cut through. So what, I let the seekers, wizards, and Psy's handle them. Archers are tough, sure. I've still managed to survive a few long enough to take them down though. It's easier to do on my Seeker than my cleric.

Psy's are damn hard, I'll give you that, probably the most OP class because of their skills and DPH. They aren't impossible to take out though, they have their weaknesses, and you just need to know how to take advantage of that.

Which is the point to balance. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. You need to know how to best take advantage of them and cover your own weaknesses as well as possible.

A Cleric trying to take down a barb is just silly in most cases, though I have managed to drop a few when equally geared.

The biggest problem with the game right now isn't an imbalance with the classes, it's the imbalance in the gear. your problem is that you can't see past your rose glasses.

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

What do you think pwi is balanced around? for example

The game is still balanced around the almighty $. Just because the War Avatars are random no matter how many $'s you spend, does not change that. Given Quantum Mechanics, any random events (such as getting an S card), become not random and predictable with enough events occurring.

squad vs squad combat : in PvP can be judged against PvE. Having done plenty of squad runs with plenty of instances, many squad "make-ups" can accomplish the same task and not have need for the "typical squad make-up" (ie... need cleric & barb sort of thing). So squad vs squad for PvE or PvP really depends on all members of those squads coordinating with each other.

1 vs 1 combat : Much on the 1v1 PvP end of this game is in fact very balanced in a "rock-paper-scissors" manner, and has been all along. Granted, the dynamics of that "rock-paper-scissors" balance has been altered multiple times at this point. -- This is when you exclude the Gear ($) > Skill aspect... and knowing that skill can beat greater geared players, but that has its limits.

PvE : being I already stated of PvE on a squad level, I will comment on a solo basis as pretty much following on the same lines of 1v1 combat, minus the "rock-paper-scissors" aspect in most cases.

80 vs 80 TW : this is just an amplified version of squad vs squad in PvP.

And my next question is what should pwi classes be balanced around?
More skill than $... which would be possible if yet again PWI's time-related hicups were actually fixxed from the Horizons expansion.

responses in gold

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

What do you think pwi is balanced around? for example

squad vs squad combat

1 vs 1 combat

PvE

80 vs 80 TW


And my next question is what should pwi classes be balanced around?

Squad Vs Squad Combat:
Can be balanced, if its not set squad of like mostly 1 class (5v5 all Psys or all Archers b:shocked)
But for the most part, with multi classes participating, it can be very fun.

1 vs 1 Combat:
Depends on Classes. As a barb, I tend to see if the gear is matched up first. Being at a range disadvantage with no Gap Closers other than Natural Inherited Speed (which isn't a gap closer with Stuns/Freezes/Para). But with that being said, 1 v 1 should be in the ball park of 50/50 chance and as long as theres that, you can still find it fun.

PvE:
There is no Balance in PvE. G16+5 (all gear, not just weapons e.e) can FaceRoll about 90% of the Instances on the game, with like a very few bosses needed an actual "OP" geared player. I'd have to say that, on Arch, atleast 50-60% of the Population is R9, bulk of that being Seekers, Archers, and Psys (Being that there are so few of them) then Barbs, Cleric, Bm, Veno. Sins really only have R9 daggs tbh. But PvE isn't a challenge and isn't balanced. And probably wont ever be.

Balancing PvE would mean bosses don't have a set skill macro. That each time you fight them, their skills get a random order, sometimes repeating a Special skill 2 or more times. And Mobs stop being in groups of 4. Some great MMOs have mobs actually roaming around in a given area. Giving them characteristic that allow them to flee when a mob near them dies, or buff up when a person near by dies. Make it challenging and actually giving the mobs a chance. Most of the time, people die from just plan over extending a pull of 40+ mobs or Looping back around and (stupidly) running through the group of 40+. Bosses and Mobs arn't tough tho e.e

TW:
The only thing that makes this unbalanced is Gear. R9s all go into 1 faction. Then the ones that didn't get in go into another faction. And by the time those 2-3 factions have been completed, the rest of the TWing factions have about 10R9s (at most) and the other 3 factions go from fighting each there to picking off small factions. TW is Politics, its dirty. But lets say everyone on the server was R9. 80v80 no matter what the class, is balanced.

NW:
Unbalanced. For a squad of R9s to always get the same nation, and im not talking about 1 squad, half the time it feels like half a faction of R9s are in the same nation, is pretty bad. Easily fixed is making the "randomization" of squad displacement on a different value because the current value (Wither it is Soul Force or not) is either Broken or No working. This fix could just come from a simple...
Must go into NW alone then form a squad.
Or
If A squads Soul Force Reaches a Certain Number they will be placed in the Lower Soul Force Nation.

Not perfect, and still warrants much QQ, but would be a nice improvement.

Overall:

The game, In my eyes, was never based on a "a->b->c system". Just because there are 10 classes, 3 are Melee, 5 are Phy, 2 of the 5 are Phy/Magic, and 1 has NO Gap Closers. With the Range having skill phy Defenses. Just Skill for Skill. Not including Genie, Apoth or anything like that. Range will also have a +1 over Melee, in this game.

Opinion on Gap Closer:
Ancestral Rage have been made as see of a Type of Gap Closer:
Skill Pops, Targets Frozen for 8 seconds and start running towards them. Buts at max range 20 meters (Which is what will happen 9/10 when using the skill because while it does hit hard, you wont find barbs using it on other HA classes other than a Seeker.)
Instead of "Lashes" if it was "Leaps" a 20 meter leap followed by an 8 Secs freeze is not OP (All Leaps can still be used to get away from the barb). But thats my opinion. Its not so much of a QQ than it is a "Things we wish would happen".
I.E. Take my Mighty Swing, make it a stun again. Revamp Ancestral Rage into a Leap that does an 8 second Para and then... THEN!!! Barbs will be broken and all will fear my Kitty Pounce!!

KITTY POUNCE!!!f:laugh

And PvE is pretty easy. Most instances are soloable by all classes.
Some are soloable by some classes.

And others, require a squad to complete different simultaneous classes, but are fairly easy with a decently geared squad that knows what they are doing.

PWI these days rely more on luck than balance.. Its all about that lucky weapon proc in anything u do b:laugh

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually, I think he does, but he expects his cleric to be more like a combination of a barb and a wizard.

At least... based on his long train of QQ posts.

b:laugh

LOL

Eh, the balance is different for everything. For example Blademaster is a very strong class 1v1 (high defenses and control skills) and a very weak class in mass pvp (due to the massive amount of ranged damage that destroys them before they can get close enough to use their control skills).

LostPoet - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The best balance, may be in group PvP in TW or just in normal group PvP (usually only happens on PvP servers).



LOL WHAT?
You must not play cleric in PvP....

R9 cleric is overall the best 1v1 class in the game. (Yes R9, because Purify is OP)
Magic shackle wrecks pretty much all classes.
Kite with the wings of protection / plume shell (+vanguard spirit if your sage) and stack heals.

And as for fighting a barb, well Absorbing array can be stacked with disables long enough to cut through their HP.
As for sins, detection pots are always available. And if they dodge your sleeps / seals, just kite stacking heals till you can get 1 off. Sleep -> debuffs -> Mark of weakness -> SoG -> stack arrays + debuffs -> and then hit nukes
Other classes just sleep/seal + debuff + stack arrays + magic shackle(when sleep/seal cooldown) and use Metal / Physical attacks appropriately for apposing class.

you sir are on crack. vs a sin with tidal up that means nothing...bersus a barb in end game gear that means nothing.....yes i admit clerics a great at pvp. especially 1v1...i play one as my main. but with debuffs taking a serious hit, defenses getting a serious buff and crazy tick bypass skills and super crit super zerk with insta chi on demand you really think a cleric is more op than sins are currently? or a barb? please share whatever it is you are on. maybe then i'd enjoy the game more.

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

i expect my cleric to follow the chart pwi provided for us. but since you know it all you prolly knew that too. my bad.

Chart?

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

you sir are on crack. vs a sin with tidal up that means nothing...bersus a barb in end game gear that means nothing.....yes i admit clerics a great at pvp. especially 1v1...i play one as my main. but with debuffs taking a serious hit, defenses getting a serious buff and crazy tick bypass skills and super crit super zerk with insta chi on demand you really think a cleric is more op than sins are currently? or a barb? please share whatever it is you are on. maybe then i'd enjoy the game more.

Clearly you don't kite enough then. tidal will either be 50% or 66%. Clerics have atleast 3 disables of which probability says, you'll get 1 through usually. If you don't no big deal, just plume shell / wings of protection and stack heals and kite.

Pop the AoE absorbing array if they get close; that skill will heal you as well (if your in UV).

All you need is for SoG or Sleep to go off once. Just ONCE! through tidal or when tidal is in the 30 seconds of cooldown phase.

stacking debuffs + array. Mark of weakness through sleep. GG.
then, when the disable wears off, pop off magic shackle before they use tidal and try to get offensive on you.

And with a cleric, probably better off with a defensive genie with maybe EP on it. Will greatly increase your chance to survive long enough to kill the sin.


If you can kite / survive for some time.... killing a sin, for clerics is not too hard.

LostPoet - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Clearly you don't kite enough then. tidal will either be 50% or 66%. Clerics have atleast 3 disables of which probability says, you'll get 1 through usually. If you don't no big deal, just plume shell / wings of protection and stack heals and kite.

Pop the AoE absorbing array if they get close; that skill will heal you as well (if your in UV).

All you need is for SoG or Sleep to go off once. Just ONCE! through tidal or when tidal is in the 30 seconds of cooldown phase.

stacking debuffs + array. Mark of weakness through sleep. GG.
then, when the disable wears off, pop off magic shackle before they use tidal and try to get offensive on you.

And with a cleric, probably better off with a defensive genie with maybe EP on it. Will greatly increase your chance to survive long enough to kill the sin.


If you can kite / survive for some time.... killing a sin, for clerics is not too hard.

^^ This exactly.

The hardest part is living through that first attach from stealth. Once you're past that, its usually pretty easy unless you're out-geared or it's many-vs-one.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

He may be referring to the charts on the character creation screen, though from what I know about the game and what I've seen in my many years of playing they're extremely inaccurate.

And props to Zanryu for teaching me cleric mechanics!!!!! b:bye

You the best! b:laugh