Clerics as DD's?

Christona - Raging Tide · March 2014

I am not saying anyone should roll a cleric for DD but that clerics can.infacy be good dd's.
]Some back story:
Recently, raging tides had delta as bh. I normally get squad before reset or right after it. The last time, i passed out and awoke 10 minutes after reset. I saw a squad looking for an aoe dd and pm the person
I was ignored and they continued to spam wc for another 5 minutes looking. A bit annoyed, I made a squad i was the only cleric in squad. Seeing as normally i can easily heal solo even without bb. The squad was myself, a sin, two seekers, an archer and a barb. All were decently geared. I rarely heal on w1 with the mobs be easy with todays gear. I maintained aggro on most of the mobs throughout w1 and decided in my bit of annoyance at the other squad that didnt take me to continue my normal cycle of tempest, razor, ih more of a filler, sirens, chb, razor.. blahh blahh (i was using omarlieys and.cloudcharger)
Even with the two seekers (t3 on both and vortexing) I maintained aggro for a good 20 seconds on most mobs. Unless the archer got a crit in boa and would steal a few mobs.
Perhaps it was my gear in combination with a pure magic build, that I kept aggro. In UVD, and jones i would assume i could pull a great deal of aoe dd.
Perhaps, i should just go back in my BB and shut up. But Clerics are not as bad of dd's. We do have more aoe than mystics. Yes compared to others like wizard and psy, we cant stack up, but we can pull off some good dd.
All I am trying to say is that our verstile class arent the worst DD's and we do have some nice aoe.

Zoldi - Morai · March 2014

Nice story...
Gears are more important than class when talking about "DD power". And a seeker vortexing is not that good for dammage. Constant AOE are just useful 'cause you can be lazy...

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · March 2014

Christona - Raging Tide wrote: »

We do have more aoe than mystics.

You obviously never played a mystic or not recently.

Our AOE:

Swirling Mist (+ DoT)
Gale Force
Thicket

+ 2 of our summons have AOE.

+ with Lucky Break we can crit all mobs with our AOE.

+ we can AOE debuff

Cleric damage is good, but a cleric's role in a squad is not to DD.

You keep aggro 20 seconds on mobs in GV? That doesn't mean your DD is good, that mean the DD of the 5 other players was weak, cause for mobs to still be alive after 20 seconds show that your squad was lacking of DD including you. (6 people DDing that take more than 20 seconds killing mobs in GV isn't good, I would not be proud of it and wouldn't call my DD good if a was a cleric DDing in that sqaud)

On my mystic I was able to 1-2 shots the mobs in GV with a +5 G16 Nirvy glaive. While in 20 seconds you do how many AOE? And the mobs was still alive... your damage suck, it just mean that the damage of the other was even worse than yours.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · March 2014

As a cleric you can sign up as DD, but I wouldn't stretch it to AoE DD. You can't perma-spark enough to keep all three AoE's going often enough to do the same damage as a class designed for AoE DD.

The squad looking for AoE DD probably didn't have one and was looking for a Seeker or a Good Wiz specifically to fill the spot.

opkossy · March 2014

Depends more on your weapon than anything else.

If you're a +12 in a squad of +5s, yeah you'll be the best DD there. If you're a +3 and so is the rest of the squad then they'll likely want someone who can carry them and that likely isn't going to come from a class that has lower overall damage potential compared to many alternatives.

Kinda like how a +12 R9 third cast assassin with chill up can do terrible terrible things to mobs in delta... but people aren't going to be keen about taking multiple sins because the main thing they'd want one for is to BP the melee DDs and subsea mobs/APS bosses. Can you have multiple sins in squad and function well? Absolutely. I've done it plenty of times. Is it something a random squad would honestly really consider; especially one that feels they need to be carried? Nope.

Atropah - Sanctuary · March 2014

Christona - Raging Tide wrote: »

raging tides had delta as bh.

...

We do have more aoe than mystics.

I've done a full Delta with a full cleric squad. Was pretty entertaining and not as difficult as people'd think.

Also, I was doing a Delta 5 for friend and the barb started DCing, 2 people were alts (one of mine) and 1 person was afk. This was pre-G16 and I was on my BM with an r8 axe. So pretty much just me on BM and an r9 +10-12 cleric were there. No problem. I'd GS+HF, they'd drop Tempest and 90% of the mobs would be dead. If I procced GS crit for both GS and HF then I'd keep aggro, if not the cleric got aggro but could tank the 10% that was left. We pretty much solo'd stages 3-5, no problem, and this was back in the G15/G16 days.

Excluding almost any class nowadays is kind of a 'lolwtf?' for this games pve content. Delta 2 is should be soloable by any decent player who is half geared, delta 3 should be simple for any squad. A full Delta is soloable by many players. The fact that they felt the need to try to optimize their DD in a BH meant for TT90 players should have scared you away from even wanting to join their squad.

As for clerics as DDs. Speaking from experience, they're 'just mediocre'. We really need our seals to catch up to other casters like wizards and psys. Wizzies have a few elemental debuffs but I'm not sure they can spam them. Venos also have mediocre DD and a shortage of aoes but have better debuffs then we do. Against bosses I'd prefer a cleric who can seal and work with a squad, but for aoe purposes I would give it to the psy/wizzy/archers. Still, it's not worth wasting even an extra tele to try for the tiny little damage difference you'd gain.

As for mystics, they have more aoes they're just less wanted. Mystics are constantly GFing and scattering mobs so that 4 other DDs are missing most the mobs with their next 3 aoes, or overwriting decent debuffs (like Glacial Spike 50% or Myriad 100%) with their 20% Befuddling debuff. Still, they have better DD and more aoes. We just don't want them to use them, lol.

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

nd a seeker vortexing is not that good for dammage. Constant AOE are just useful 'cause you can be lazy...

TY!!! Blade Afinity->4 aoes with Gemini Slash as your 3rd aoe and it can be done in about the time it takes to just channel vortex and half your mobs will be dead. The remaining ones will be debuffed to take 20% more damage and die really quick, usually wiped out by your squad almost instantly. Not to mention vortex missing the ranged mobs most the time. Total cost, 1 mp pot. A seeker that complains about the mp cost of a full delta was probably just afk->vortexing the whole time.

Vortex dph isn't great. Especially considering you can't debuff mobs for 4 other dd's while in it. However, aoe spam will hit cooldowns and vortex dps will win after about 20 something seconds, so it's useful after mobs are debuff and only if the mobs are alive for longer than 20 seconds. Because of this seekers really shouldn't vortex much till stage 5 where the mobs start getting higher hp.

SonH - Dreamweaver · April 2014

To say Clerics as mediocre DDs is questionable. With the introduction of Primal, clerics can easily out DDs most classes that they once couldn't, single target-wise. The only classes that clerics can't out DD at end game are assassins with Life Hunter, wizards with their natural better skill scaling and Primal water/fire shield, and archers (although sage clerics with maxed channeling can probably out DD them).

Zoldi - Morai · April 2014

SonH - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The only classes that clerics can't out DD at end game are assassins with Life Hunter, wizards with their natural better skill scaling and Primal water/fire shield, and archers (although sage clerics with maxed channeling can probably out DD them).

Are you talking about PVE (single target) with only self buffs ? If so, not mentionning mystics is really weird... (and now you can even get cleric attack buff with potions while invigorate can't be given to someone without being in same instance).

Shadowvzss - Harshlands · April 2014

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Are you talking about PVE (single target) with only self buffs ? If so, not mentionning mystics is really weird... (and now you can even get cleric attack buff with potions while invigorate can't be given to someone without being in same instance).

i think he mean violet dance and cycleon spam without cooldown

Zoldi - Morai · April 2014

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

i think he mean violet dance and cycleon spam without cooldown

Probably... but still I really don't get how a cleric could, for example, kill a boss faster than a mystic (same gear and assuming that the cleric is not buffed with invigorate)

SonH - Dreamweaver · April 2014

The reason I did not list Mystic as one of the classes that can out damage a Cleric is as followed:

Demon Clerics:
- UVD gives a 100% boost of magic attack at max Soulforce.
- Demon Spirit's Gift gives another 150% boost of magic attack.
- Elemental Seal reduces magic defense by 35%, combined with Demon Wield Thunder which reduces another 30% of metal resistance, totaling to 65% metal reduction.
- Mark of Weakness increases the target's chance of receiving Critical Hit by 15%.
- Primal Great Cyclone, especially Demon, does more damage than Mystic's main damage skill, Nature's Vengeance, due to higher base damage and spam capability.

Sage Clerics:
- UVD gives a 100% boost of magic attack at max Soulforce.
- Sage Magic Shell reduces channeling by 20%.
- Elemental Seal reduces magic defense by 35%.
- Sage Wield Thunder help to build chi faster, which allows for more frequent triple spark.
- Mark of Weakness increases the target's chance of receiving Critical Hit by 15%.
- Primal Great Cyclone does more damage due to higher base damage and spam capability.

To sum it up, although Mystics have pets to enhance themselves, plants to debuff, and utility skills such as Rapid Growth, their debuffs aren't as strong, Rapid Growth costs chi and isn't spam-able, nor are pets' skills. Clerics, on the other hand, can triple spark more often than Mystics, can debuff for more, and can get more Great Cyclones off than Mystics can with Nature's Vengeance.

Edit: I left out masteries on purpose because it's essentially the same for every class as demon or sage, with the exception of a few. However, the purpose of Clerics and Mystics, I opted to leave them out.

Eoria - Harshlands · April 2014

Pretty sure mystic single-target DPS will still be higher on ? bosses especially if sage so long as Mistress has a steady supply of MP.

Zoldi - Morai · April 2014

SonH - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To sum it up, although Mystics have pets to enhance themselves, plants to debuff, and utility skills such as Rapid Growth, their debuffs aren't as strong, Rapid Growth costs chi and isn't spam-able, nor are pets' skills. Clerics, on the other hand, can triple spark more often than Mystics, can debuff for more, and can get more Great Cyclones off than Mystics can with Nature's Vengeance.

I'm surprised by the Great Cyclone comparison with Nature's Vengeance and by your comment regarding triple spark but maybe I'm not up-to-date.
Anyway, even if you list a lot of good points for clerics as DD (and I never said a cleric can't be a good DD) there are some Mystics' advantages that you don't mention at all such as Invigorate giving a 20%*increase in dammage which is really significant.
More over, on a high HP boss, the possibility to decrease the max HP by 8% is not minor.
Less important but still useful, the dot from Swirling Mist gives nice additionnal dammage for a skill that fast to cast.

Evryn - Morai · April 2014

As a cler, I usually DD, debuff and spotheal wave1 and part of wave 2 (up to the gargoyles). Simply because unless you've got some true glasscannon squishies, healing won't be needed in those waves. Tempest, Razor Feathers, Sirens Kiss... can all help soften enemies up and kill em a lot faster. But clerics imho aren't true DD monsters. Their offensive abilities are limited in terms of damage. Clers are durable however since they have several harm-and-heal abilities.

[Edit]@Above: Clerics tripspark more often then mystics? Mystics that spam sage NV can spark quite often...

Adibeiie - Dreamweaver · April 2014

SonH has a very valid point. I have a R9rr cleric and a R9rr mystic, I can definitely say that damage wise, my cleric easily out does my mystic. But if it comes to crowd control my mystic obviously has the upper hand with seals, AOE debuffs, etc. But I don't care for the crowd control playstyle in PvP, particularly after playing a mystic for so long. Neither should be looked down upon as a DD, but also just because a cleric is a "healer" doesn't mean that is their sole purpose seeing as PvE wise very few things require any serious heals now...hell, even my NW squad jokes about me not healing, but when it comes down to it what they really need are rebuffs unless they happen to be capping a flag or have a large angry mob of people on them.

But, when it comes down to DPS and DPH, even considering the storm mistress, a well-geared cleric in UVD will out DD the well geared mystic AND its pet. Having a high increase in base magic attack through UVD plus a skill that is 100% spammable, makes it so.

In the case of a cleric needed to heal or DD in delta...well, that depends on your squad (sort of.) I rarely do full Delta because I don't care to sit for that amount of time in one instance, but in BH 1-2 of my AOE's off my cleric generally kills the mobs, so there isn't a reason to cut out DDing just to heal constantly.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · April 2014

SonH - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Rapid Growth costs chi and isn't spam-able, nor are pets' skills.

Pet's skills cannot be spam? Mistress's single attack skill is pretty much spammable, 1.5 sec chan (1 sec cast and cd), that's pretty much spammable to me. The AOE one isn't spammable, but the single attack skill is for mistress.

And sage mystics spark way much more often than clerics.

Leeching mistress give 200% m.att for 20 sec.

Rapid growth can be ''spam'' for sage IF lucky.

I made people on my server start playing their alt mystics in events like Tiger and COA while their cleric was more geared than their alt mystic cause they realize mystics was doing better than clerics (for event you need to DD AOE and single target). You can ask Eoria when she saw how many points I was getting in Tiger on mystic she did switch to her mystic so do other clerics that have al mystic alt.

Mistress make a huge difference and that can be see in place like COA, put a mystic, cleric, psy, veno and wizz with the same gears/refine, self buff in COA, the mystic will be the one killing his boss first. (I never had frenzy on my genie, but some mystics told me it work on mistress if you frenzy than summon her she will keep the attack from it, but I can't confirm it myself)

Eoria - Harshlands · April 2014

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

I made people on my server start playing their alt mystics in events like Tiger and COA while their cleric was more geared than their alt mystic cause they realize mystics was doing better than clerics (for event you need to DD AOE and single target). You can ask Eoria when she saw how many points I was getting in Tiger on mystic she did switch to her mystic so do other clerics that have al mystic alt.

Pretty sure I switched to mystic because I couldn't win vs. Cucu, gomba, and some of the other r9 clerics at the time. And then I just kept going with it until Nocturnal recasted his r9.

Mazumii - Dreamweaver · April 2014

if a cleric can be a DD then a psycic can be a healer, imo, stick to your class, want to play a dd then role a dd, want to be a healer then role cleric/mystic...makes no sense

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · April 2014

On ? bosses a fully specced cleric and mystic have about same dps I'd say. In terms of debuffs, a cleric can contribute stronger and longer lasting debuffs for single target, while mystic debuffs are weaker but also aoe, a significant advantage in many cases. On non-? bosses or in pvp, cleric dps is slightly superior (it wasn't until the no-cd cyclone, so that skill truly is the one reason why clerics are now among the top single-target dds).

The only person who can keep aggro from my cleric, aside from deity build, is a +12 sin with life hunter. That skill is even more ridonkulous than no-cd cyclone. And lets not even get started on elimination.

Caveat* my cleric has a lot more -channeling than most clerics. Most psychics should have superior dps in black voodoo than a cleric. I'd say normally we'd rank it nowadays as psychic, cleric, mystic, wizard, venos, for the arcanes. Venos have little personal dps but do have very strong debuffs so ofc they aren't judged so much for their dps. Actually veno dps may surpass wizards now that I think about it...though undine strike may keep wizards ahead of venos.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · April 2014

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Pretty sure I switched to mystic because I couldn't win vs. Cucu, gomba, and some of the other r9 clerics at the time. And then I just kept going with it until Nocturnal recasted his r9.

The first time I did tiger on mystic at lvl 100 I got 17k contribution and you pmed me asking how I did it and I clearly remember I had more than you on your cleric (I was kinda proud of it since you always out geared me), the week after you was on mystic and did continued on mystic 'til recently.

C'mmon Eo you know that both of us was at 95% of the time in the top 10 overall and there was no cleric even close to beat us, we did beat R9rr clerics with our G16 nirvy mystics week after week. We was reaching easy 25k contribution on mystics, clerics was barely reaching 20k. If you was able to do the same on cleric you would have be first place every weeks for cleric beside half of the time since often I was getting first on mystic too sometime. (Sometime legit sometime the random points xD)

Zoldi - Morai · April 2014

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The only person who can keep aggro from my cleric, aside from deity build, is a +12 sin with life hunter.

Just as a side note, aggro and DD can't be completely associated though, especially when talking about a mystic.

Chelestine - Heavens Tear · April 2014

Mazumii - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if a cleric can be a DD then a psycic can be a healer, imo, stick to your class, want to play a dd then role a dd, want to be a healer then role cleric/mystic...makes no sense

The point is that the clerics only purpose isn't to just heal, he/she can very successfully take on a DD'ing role when the occasion allows for it. I get so tired of getting rejected from squads, be it FSP or BH 100, just because I'm a cleric and "squad already has a cleric, sorry". Being a cleric doesn't mean 100% of my skills are just heals and I wish people would learn that already. The cleric's role in a team might often be a healer, yes, but in any other situation the cleric is just as competent a DD as any other class, so especially if there's two clerics in the squad, what is the big deal with one of them being a DD like everyone else in the team?

Mauntille - Heavens Tear · April 2014

Chelestine - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The point is that the clerics only purpose isn't to just heal, he/she can very successfully take on a DD'ing role when the occasion allows for it. I get so tired of getting rejected from squads, be it FSP or BH 100, just because I'm a cleric and "squad already has a cleric, sorry". Being a cleric doesn't mean 100% of my skills are just heals and I wish people would learn that already. The cleric's role in a team might often be a healer, yes, but in any other situation the cleric is just as competent a DD as any other class, so especially if there's two clerics in the squad, what is the big deal with one of them being a DD like everyone else in the team?

The problem is that the part in red also applies to clerics. I'm well aware of how awesome cleric DD can be and really enjoy some of the cleric only squads I've been in. However, I've seen far more clerics overheal/buff/etc even when there are other clerics and their actions are becoming redundant. I was in a squad awhile ago consisting of 4 clerics, a sin, and a veno (myself on cleric). I asked who the primary healer would be and if anyone had a problem with me dropping into Ultraviolet and playing DD for the run. Two of the other clerics were okay with that (one of them being the primary healer, one out of UVD to be a secondary healer), but the last cleric really got her panties in a twist. She went on this rant about how clerics weren't meant to be DDs and that I was gimping myself and putting the squad at risk by disabling half of my skills. While that case is a little extreme, I've also seen squads with 2-3 clerics who only healed when minimal healing was required for that instance. I kid you not, I've seen 3 BBs up in BH wave 2.

So I think for pick up groups especially the reason clerics aren't accepted as DDs isn't so much because clerics can't DD, but because so many don't, even if they sign up for it.

Personally, I love taking clerics for a DD role, as long as I know you'll fill it. What this ends up translating to is allowing a cleric as a DD only after I know them. If it's the first time I've run with you, sorry but I'll prefer another class unless I'm not getting responses. It's nothing against your skills in particular or what the class can do, it's just an easy way to filter PMs.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · April 2014

Chelestine - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The point is that the clerics only purpose isn't to just heal, he/she can very successfully take on a DD'ing role when the occasion allows for it. I get so tired of getting rejected from squads, be it FSP or BH 100, just because I'm a cleric and "squad already has a cleric, sorry". Being a cleric doesn't mean 100% of my skills are just heals and I wish people would learn that already. The cleric's role in a team might often be a healer, yes, but in any other situation the cleric is just as competent a DD as any other class, so especially if there's two clerics in the squad, what is the big deal with one of them being a DD like everyone else in the team?

Well I would agree that a cleric can do more than just healing, but 95% of the clerics can't do their main job of healing correctly, in how many FSP I need to heal the barb cause the stupid cleric CHB while the barb is not in his CHB range and all the clerics do is CHB CHB CHB CHB non stop, no IH or wellspring on the tank, how many charm ticks I see after the second boss cause the cleric doesn't purify people? I even see people die after the boss from the DOT cause the cleric just walk to the next boss.

I have no issue with a cleric that want to DD, but first get your healing right pls. Also before start to DD like crazy use your freaking debuffs, I see a lot of clerics DDing, but never use their debuffs.

Clerics want to DD, but they don't even know how to do it.

How many times in FSP when I'm tanking on mystic the cleric totally ignore me and DD letting me live on my charm and my own heal, I do agree at 100% that I have heals, if I wasn't tanking and need heal I would heal myself no problem, but when I'm tanking and the cleric is DDing (without even debuffing) next to me without healing making me need to tank, DD and heal at the same time, it's what I call a fail cleric and majority of clerics are like that.

I didn't meet clerics that did wow me in PVE, while PVE is freaking easy, in ws one day I did come on cleric cause their was no cleric, with a TT99 weapon and the whole squad told me that usually they run with a R9rr cleric and that their charms was ticking like crazy while with me their charm didn't tick a single time of the run.

The problem with clerics when they get more powerful weapon, do realize that they can actually DD, but then they become fail metal mage that prefer to let people burn charms and die than heal just to prove they can DD and then they claim they are great clerics.

Clerics can DD, Clerics have a good damage, but for me a cleric could be the best DD in the world I would not be impress if he can't keep his squad alive. For me a great cleric is a cleric that first of all will keep his squad alive (by healing, not by them living on their charms/pots), trow at least a m.debuff and buff without need to be ask.

People know that clerics have DD skills, they just don't care, a cleric is a healer for them, as a barb is a tank, plus majority of the time more there's clerics in a squad more there's people dying cause they all want to DD and assume the other(s) will heal, but that's more due to a lack of communication.

I doubt people will ever change their mind, even before Morai and VD cleric DD was good, people just don't care, they want a cleric for heal in squad and when need DD they prefer other magic classes, fight as much as you want you won't be able to change the mind of an entire community, specially PWI's community.

Mystics have the choice to be main healer or main DD, clerics will never have that choice.

Suprprutty - Lost City · April 2014

I often bump into clerics that overheal etc. or that DD and forget to heal. This results in people thinking that A. clerics that dd are bad because lots of them forget to heal and B. clerics can't dd because lots of them stay behind overhealing sometimes not even debuffing.

Clerics as DD's?

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