Use Tip Boxes in Dungeons

ovenusarmanio · March 2014

For those who don't know what tip boxes are, they are little boxes that add skills to your character, that expire upon leaving the Astral Domain. So these skills are removed once you leave the area. They have their own equip slot, so using them would not effect your ability to use blessings or genies.

I think they should add these to dungeons to solve minor player annoyances, or to add some fun and variety to caves. Or even to make the older caves more worthwhile.

For example,

They could have all the older dungeons give out a tip box that includes a run speed passive that gives casters temporarily the same run speed as melee classes.

Or they could make an instance like FSP, where it requires some skill that's cast to kill the boss. Like maybe if a boss is down, it can start a long channeling skill that will cause it to say, do a bunch of damage to the party and heal up. And everyone has to channel the same skill (given them by the tip box) to seal the evil, and win the day. We all know how awesome it looks when a bunch of toons channel the same skill at the same time, so it would make it more epic feeling to defeat the boss in such a way.

They could add a tip box to a lowbie dungeon for 100+ that nerfs your character to roughly the same stats as any random appropriate level character of your class. But allows you to summon special versions of the BH bosses so long as the tip box is equipped. (Once you start this dungeon mode, you cannot unequip the tip box) Doing this would give you a random a card pack. Make it appropriate to the amount of work put in as compared to some of the card dailies now. So none would be worthy of an S, but still would be worth doing.

Since these boxes would expire upon leaving the dungeon, this would mostly only effect PVE. With the one caveat it would also effect your ability to kill your squad mates after you drop squad in PVP servers. xD

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · March 2014

Define "the same run speed as melee classes", since the base speeds of the other classes are only slightly faster than non-veno casters, ranging from 4.9 (barbs in human) to 5.2 (archers if I remember right.) It's the speed buff skills (tiger form, summer sprint, maze steps etc.) that really leave casters in the dust, and those for BM, assassin and seeker are burst buffs, not continuous.

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

Definitely not.

1. PWE does not listen to english player suggestions involving actual gameplay.
2. The idea itself is horrible. No other game has this and for good reason.
3. What you want is a speed passive for Arcanes. Just come out and say it.
4. Why are you leaving the melee out? What do we get bro?
5. If you want different boss mechanics there are better ways to do it. FSP did a fairly decent job of this, even though the instance still wound up boring.
6. Instead of giving slightly different versions of skills (run speed passive.. pfftbahahahaha) a better idea would be to give a different BH entirely. Make the FBs tie into the lore somehow and allow people to run them as characters of PWI's past. It'd give people backstory on the game, add to the lore which PWI desperately needs, and do more for the game than what you suggest. Though these could also end up having to be solo dungeons, seeing as I doubt PWE has the creativity to come up with 6-10 characters complete with backstory. That, and it'd be a pain for each person to choose a character. Could force rainbow squad but that raises other problems. Then again, solo content could be nice. Make it a new quest series for Celestial players. Allow them to go in and play as a character from the past. Hell, why limit it to FBs? Let them go to special areas and they can go back in time and live that person's life. Learn how they rose to greatness or became what they became or something. This would be especially cool if we could do it for a villain as well.
7. 6 was getting pretty long. Anyway, you get the idea. The more I think about it the more I like it, but it doesn't really tie into this thread. Either way I don't like your idea. But it helped me arrive at mine so, it gets .1 points.
8. Toodles. Maybe I'll make a thread on this. Or post it in that quest thing. Was that thread a quest thing? I don't remember.. something about lore and quests and stuff. Oh well. Someone tell me when you read this.

ovenusarmanio · March 2014

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Define "the same run speed as melee classes", since the base speeds of the other classes are only slightly faster than non-veno casters, ranging from 4.9 (barbs in human) to 5.2 (archers if I remember right.) It's the speed buff skills (tiger form, summer sprint, maze steps etc.) that really leave casters in the dust, and those for BM, assassin and seeker are burst buffs, not continuous.

That's true, maybe have them run at about the same speed as a veno with level 1 summer sprint. I know that it's easier to keep up with the bms once everyone uses their speed pots, on a veno, then any of the other casters. And it can use the same icon so venos don't double dip. It's a minor annoyance that pops up from time to time in the class subforums, cleric especially. But you can't just solve it by making a passive, because the damage done to PVP would make it far outweigh the positive. I mean you could just make a passive that didn't work on certain maps, but the tip boxes are more versatile. And easier to remove if it causes unintended issues. Since removing it doesn't nerf anyone's character, and wastes any of their money. It nerfs an instance, but not the character itself.

Alternatively, they can just give casters burst speed skills. Really with top boxes you can put any skill you want into an area, and only that area, and have it expire the second someone leaves. So you don't have to worry about stuff intended for that area, destroying the rest of the game's balance.

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Definitely not.

1. PWE does not listen to English player suggestions involving actual gameplay.

Sure they do, it's just very, very rare. G16 gear is a good example. And at any rate, I have just as much right to post on the suggestion box as you do. And am just as aware of the likelihood of anything ever being implemented from here as you are.

2. The idea itself is horrible. No other game has this and for good reason.

Allow different mechanics in different dungeons is horrible? It's already done with items sometimes, like in nirvana. You highlight the target, and then click the item, and you cast a one-off skill. It has a cast time and animation and everything. It really isn't all that different in concept. It's just instead of an item activating the skill you would have it added to your character. Which frees up inventory space and allows for more interesting animations. Single player games do this sometimes, giving you access to moves you don't get to use in other parts of the game. Or restricting your ability to use certain moves during certain play scenes, to force you into a particular style of play different than the rest. It adds variety.

3. What you want is a speed passive for Arcanes. Just come out and say it.

I did say in the other thread, that although it is unnecessary, it's not a terrible idea to make casters able to keep up with the melee in dungeons. But I think tip boxes can be used more than that.

4. Why are you leaving the melee out? What do we get bro?

Would depend on the instance. This is not an exhaustive list, it was just examples off the top of my head.

5. If you want different boss mechanics there are better ways to do it. FSP did a fairly decent job of this, even though the instance still wound up boring.

Different boss mechanics isn't the only way to add variation. Different skills means new animations and such, that can be fun. And since they expire upon leaving the area, you don't have to worry about them disrupting the balance of the rest of game.

6. Instead of giving slightly different versions of skills (run speed passive.. pfftbahahahaha) a better idea would be to give a different BH entirely. Make the FBs tie into the lore somehow and allow people to run them as characters of PWI's past. It'd give people backstory on the game, add to the lore which PWI desperately needs, and do more for the game than what you suggest. Though these could also end up having to be solo dungeons, seeing as I doubt PWE has the creativity to come up with 6-10 characters complete with backstory. That, and it'd be a pain for each person to choose a character. Could force rainbow squad but that raises other problems. Then again, solo content could be nice. Make it a new quest series for Celestial players. Allow them to go in and play as a character from the past. Hell, why limit it to FBs? Let them go to special areas and they can go back in time and live that person's life. Learn how they rose to greatness or became what they became or something. This would be especially cool if we could do it for a villain as well.

I said nerf the characters back for the FB thing, not give them slightly different versions of skills. It basically allows you to run with the same relative strength of someone the appropriate level of the instance for prizes. Which would give people incentive to run lowbie dungeons without the aid of a high level's strength, since any high level in the instance would have to be nerfed to run it. Basically allowing the old FB stuff to be done as a legacy version, and giving new players and old players a reason to interact with one another that is beneficial for both parties. What you are suggesting is an entirely different thing.

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Sure they do, it's just very, very rare. G16 gear is a good example. And at any rate, I have just as much right to post on the suggestion box as you do. And am just as aware of the likelihood of anything ever being implemented from here as you are.

I never said you couldn't post.

Allow different mechanics in different dungeons is horrible? It's already done with items sometimes, like in nirvana. You highlight the target, and then click the item, and you cast a one-off skill. It has a cast time and animation and everything. It really isn't all that different in concept. It's just instead of an item activating the skill you would have it added to your character. Which frees up inventory space and allows for more interesting animations. Single player games do this sometimes, giving you access to moves you don't get to use in other parts of the game. Or restricting your ability to use certain moves during certain play scenes, to force you into a particular style of play different than the rest. It adds variety.

If all it takes to make a game interesting for you is pretty animations then maybe you should play something a little more your speed. Like Hello Kitty.

I did say in the other thread, that although it is unnecessary, it's not a terrible idea to make casters able to keep up with the melee in dungeons. But I think tip boxes can be used more than that.

I think Casters are fine where they are. If people can't wait for them or if they're too impatient to deal with the speed of the class they chose, tough titties.

Would depend on the instance. This is not an exhaustive list, it was just examples off the top of my head.

You may want to come up with a better example.

Different boss mechanics isn't the only way to add variation. Different skills means new animations and such, that can be fun. And since they expire upon leaving the area, you don't have to worry about them disrupting the balance of the rest of game.

If they're gonna add different mechanics it'd be better to give us actual mechanics. Make the bosses do something special or unique, instead of making everyone have to adjust to new class mechanics that change with each dungeon.

I said nerf the characters back for the FB thing, not give them slightly different versions of skills. It basically allows you to run with the same relative strength of someone the appropriate level of the instance for prizes. Which would give people incentive to run lowbie dungeons without the aid of a high level's strength, since any high level in the instance would have to be nerfed to run it. Basically allowing the old FB stuff to be done as a legacy version, and giving new players and old players a reason to interact with one another that is beneficial for both parties. What you are suggesting is an entirely different thing.

Kicks the absolute **** out of your idea though.

Red bro.

ovenusarmanio · March 2014

1. I never said you said I couldn't. I just felt like tossing that out there, since you tossed out point 1.

2. You're a big fan of taking people's arguments to ridiculous extremes, aren't you. They've already been adding different boss mechanics. The tip mechanics allow for you to temporarily play your own toon different. It adds variety. Video games literally do this all the time. Stealth levels in games you usually shoot them up, swim levels, etc. Some games even remove characters from your party, and when they come back, they've forgotten some skill that used give you as a boost in an earlier level.

3. That's your opinion. I think it would be fun to make pve more interesting and varied. I have never said that it should be exclusive to casters. Hell, I never said this was a needed change either. Just something that would be interesting.

4. Nah, those were just examples of the types of things that could be done with tip boxes. As I said, they've introduced a new thing that opens the door to them to add temporary mechanics for our characters in different locations, that have absolutely no effect on pvp. I think it would be interesting to use them. The suggestion is not about an exhaustive list. Those were just three things that illustrate what can be done with them.

Each example shows that they can be used to

a. Fix minor annoyances people have with different types of classes in caves.

b. Add variety to instances, not unlike different stages/scenes in other games that likewise restrict your character or give them special powers.

c. Introduce legacy versions of dungeons. Most of the older, most successful MMOs have some mechanic to refresh older content to keep new players and older players interacting. This was one way that PWI could go about doing that.

5. Not really, your idea of becoming the NPC actually sounds pretty boring to me. I don't want to be Duke Blacke, or Sheomay, or the Drunken Warrior, or whoever, even if those characters are all fun NPCs. I like my character. If I wanted to play a different character, I'd play a different game. Anyway, you might as well post your idea. I'm sure other will like it. Goodness knows that endgame content that isn't a daily is also something that is needed.

Anyway legacy versions of older content is also actually something many successful older mmos do. They even have an extra credits video about it. You want to see add them new endgame things. I want to see them revive some of them older stuff somehow. Different strokes for different folks.

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

1. I never said you said I couldn't. I just felt like tossing that out there, since you tossed out point 1.

K bro.

2. You're a big fan of reductio ad absurdum, aren't you. They've already been adding different boss mechanics. The tip mechanics allow for you to temporarily play your own toon different. It adds variety. Video games literally do this all the time. Stealth levels in games you usually shoot them up, swim levels, etc. Some hand held levels even remove characters from your party, and when they come back, they've forgotten some skill that used give you as a boost in an earlier level.

There are good and bad ways to add variety. How is making people adjust to new class mechanics in different dungeons good? Or in any way better than giving us new bosses or changing current boss mechanics?

3. That's your opinion. I think it would be fun to make pve more interesting and varied. I have never said that it should be exclusive to casters. Hell, I never said this was a needed change either. Just something that would be interesting.

Honestly this game doesn't need our current content varied. It needs NEW content. ENGAGING content. Vary current PvP all you like, it won't fix anything. What this game desperately needs is something new, exciting, and most importantly immersive.

4. Nah, those were just examples of the types of things that could be done with tip boxes. As I said, they've introduced a new thing that opens the door to them to add temporary mechanics for our characters in different locations, that have absolutely no effect on pvp. I think it would be interesting to use them. The suggestion is not about an exhaustive list. Those were just three things that illustrate what can be done with them.

Each example shows that they can be used to

a. Fix minor annoyances people have with different types of classes in caves.

b. Add variety to instances, not unlike different stages/scenes in other games that likewise restrict your character or give them special powers.

c. Introduce legacy versions of dungeons. Most of the older, most successful MMOs have some mechanic to refresh older content to keep new players and older players interacting. This was one way that PWI could go about doing that.

What else in cave annoys you other than being slower than a slug in a salt maze? Because there's a reason Arcanes run slower than Melee.

Adding a few new skills for variety is like adding an extra vegetable to a salad. It accomplishes virtually nothing.

Legacy mode isn't a bad idea, though it's more similar to my idea rather than yours.

5. Not really, your idea of becoming the NPC actually sounds pretty boring to me. I don't want to be Duke Blacke, or Sheomay, or the Drunken Warrior, or whoever, even if those characters are all fun NPCs. I like my character. If I wanted to play a different character, I'd play a different game. Anyway, you might as well post your idea. I'm sure other will like it. Goodness knows that endgame content that isn't a daily is also something that is needed.

Anyway legacy versions of older content is also actually something many successful older mmos do. They even have an extra credits video about it. You want to see them them new endgame things. I want to see them revive some of them older stuff somehow. Different strokes for different folks.
I never said it had to be end game. I was talking about FBs, and getting Celestial in no way require an end game character. I'm somewhat surprised someone like you isn't interested in the idea of a deeper lore. One of the games I played in the past has amazing lore, its only limiting factor is the poor combat mechanics. If not for that I'd be back there in a heartbeat b:dirty Mmm... Lore.

Much red wow

Asterelle - Sanctuary · March 2014

They already do something similar to this with those items that you click to cast skills like in FSP toad (throwing axes) and UCH dragons. Also that emote that pops up when you fight toad is another way to weave in added skills. Having them be actual skills would be a little more fun but not functionally very different.

ovenusarmanio · March 2014

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

There are good and bad ways to add variety. How is making people adjust to new class mechanics in different dungeons good? Or in any way better than giving us new bosses or changing current boss mechanics?

I don't think it would be that bad. Just like the bosses, once you learn the trick of it, you are comfortable dealing with that mechanic. It's just a different way of going about something that is already happening.

Honestly this game doesn't need our current content varied. It needs NEW content. ENGAGING content. Vary current PvP all you like, it won't fix anything. What this game desperately needs is something new, exciting, and most importantly immersive.

I think it does because people are increasingly disengaged from it. Adding some new variety and new rewards to current content I think would be a good way for people to start doing those old things again. Which gets them interacting with new people.

What else in cave annoys you other than being slower than a slug in a salt maze? Because there's a reason Arcanes run slower than Melee.

It goes from instance to instance, honestly. Especially with the older stuff. For a lowbie example, sometimes the mobs glitch into the wall in valley of disaster. It would be nice to have a modified reel-in available to melee to deal with that. Casters can easily deal with it, but it's annoying. And unnecessary, and doesn't really teach much about the class imo. They should already know how to deal with ranged mobs, and if thye don't there are plenty of other places to teach them.

And I'm aware of the balance issues for why casters run slower. I could never support a suggestion that would unbalance pvp, or it make so that all the classes could permanently outrun every mob. But people already zip through anyway, and melees complaining at casters for being slow is a common complaint. I see it all the time. I see people in instances complain about it all the time. It's the most minor of minor pet peeve, but it's not something that we necessarily just have to put up with. There is a way to fix that without breaking it every where else.

Adding a few new skills for variety is like adding an extra vegetable to a salad. It accomplishes virtually nothing.

I don't think you know how to salad.

Legacy mode isn't a bad idea, though it's more similar to my idea rather than yours.

Legacy mode is in the OP, I didn't call it that, but that is what is being described. But that's what I was getting at by nerfing the high level through the tip boxes. I did add in as well that it would need a reward like card boxes, to make it worth doing.

I never said it had to be end game. I was talking about FBs, and getting Celestial in no way require an end game character. I'm somewhat surprised someone like you isn't interested in the idea of a deeper lore. One of the games I played in the past has amazing lore, its only limiting factor is the poor combat mechanics. If not for that I'd be back there in a heartbeat Mmm... Lore.

Maybe not end game in gear, but endgame level wise. Whereas say making a legacy version, could be done in lowbie dungeons too. Which would allow veterans and new players to interact in such a way that they similar in power, for rewards that are mutually beneficial. Which helps keep the newer player engaged, and be beneficial for the older player as well.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

They already do something similar to this with those items that you click to cast skills like in FSP toad (throwing axes) and UCH dragons. Also that emote that pops up when you fight toad is another way to weave in added skills. Having them be actual skills would be a little more fun but not functionally very different.

Yea, that's actually where I got the idea from! I figured it might be a bit more diverse than having it done by an item though, since it means you can add multiple different skills to the one tip book. And those skills are all class based. Plus you know, the animations would be more interesting. The animation thing isn't at all that different functionally, but I think it would be nice presentation of that too. A T-shirt is a T-shirt, but prettier T-shirts are more fun to wear than plain ones.

I have a question for you. Do the items have the same diversity as the tip boxes? The tip boxes at least from the user end, felt more diverse. But I don't know if they are functionally all that different, program wise.

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I don't think it would be that bad. Just like the bosses, once you learn the trick of it, you are comfortable dealing with that mechanic. It's just a different way of going about something that is already happening.

It makes little sense. If they were gonna bother changing mechanics it'd be best to give bosses or mobs new mechanics, rather than give players instance specific ones.

I think it does because people are increasingly disengaged from it. Adding some new variety and new rewards to current content I think would be a good way for people to start doing those old things again. Which gets them interacting with new people.

Just adding new mechanics won't fix the problem. Once the thrill of new mechanics wears off people would be back in the same old rut. They gave FB bosses a new purpose, but that didn't make them any more interesting or engaging. New content that can actually engage the player is what's needed. Not revamps.

It goes from instance to instance, honestly. Especially with the older stuff. For a lowbie example, sometimes the mobs glitch into the wall in valley of disaster. It would be nice to have a modified reel-in available to melee to deal with that. Casters can easily deal with it, but it's annoying. And unnecessary, and doesn't really teach much about the class imo. They should already know how to deal with ranged mobs, and if thye don't there are plenty of other places to teach them.

Instead of giving people Reel In they could.. Oh I don't know.. actually fix the issue that causes mobs to get stuck. That seems like a far better solution in my opinion. If your issue is that it's annoying to deal with mobs that are stuck in walls and that people aren't learning anything from dealing with them, then even Reel In doesn't solve the issues you have. It'd still be annoying to pull them with Reel In, and nobody is learning anything about their class by using a modified skill that they'd have no access to outside of the instance. Don't you think for new players it'd be a little weird having skills added to your class in each instance? And even weirder to have different ones added depending on the instance? Come on now Venus.

And I'm aware of the balance issues for why casters run slower. I could never support a suggestion that would unbalance pvp, or it make so that all the classes could permanently outrun every mob. But people already zip through anyway, and melees complaining at casters for being slow is a common complaint. I see it all the time. I see people in instances complain about it all the time. It's the most minor of minor pet peeve, but it's not something that we necessarily just have to put up with. There is a way to fix that without breaking it every where else.

Purify Spell exists. So half of the classes already can under very common circumstances. Even if that is much later in the game.

Patience is a virtue, if people can't learn to be patient that's their problem. The game shouldn't have to change for their petty needs and it shouldn't try to baby them.

I don't think you know how to salad.

I'm fairly sure salads have vegetables. You know... lettuce, tomato, cucumbers, stuff like that. Though to be fair, if I don't know how to salad it's probably because I eat.. you know.. real food.

Legacy mode is in the OP, I didn't call it that, but that is what is being described. But that's what I was getting at by nerfing the high level through the tip boxes. I did add in as well that it would need a reward like card boxes, to make it worth doing.

One or two new mechanics legacy mode does not make. Your suggestion is not legacy mode.

Maybe not end game in gear, but endgame level wise. Whereas say making a legacy version, could be done in lowbie dungeons too. Which would allow veterans and new players to interact in such a way that they similar in power, for rewards that are mutually beneficial. Which helps keep the newer player engaged, and be beneficial for the older player as well.

It takes very little time to actually hit 100. A revamp to lore throughout the game would even help to keep the player engaged while leveling. If they enjoy that sort of thing anyway. PWI needs a whole lot of things when it comes to keeping the player interested. Rewards should not be your motivation in a game, fun should. Why reinforce the currently accepted idea that it's all about the gear and the money? This is a game, we should do things for enjoyment. I get that some people love getting shiny new toys, but is that really the kind of way you want to try to engage people?

All this red bro.

heerohex#3018 · March 2014

I have noted this thread.

I will reply later.

Thanks,

Devilskarma - Raging Tide · March 2014

oVenusArmanio, this is a VERY good base idea to work from actually. I believe the "tip box" is the same one as those coin pack skills and the 4 skills in the new starter area go in to? You have to love how all the trolls automatically attack anything that is beyond their intellectual capacity to comprehend. They automatically attack the "examples" you gave, rather than add anything at all constructive (of which, you should have seen coming b:chuckle). I love these forums! b:victory

Being they gave 4 skills in the new starter area via this same exact method... It is not beyond them to again use 4 "skills" on a tip box item in various ways. They could create a dungeon that is crawling with mobs on the dungeon floor, and the tip box would give the ability to double jump in order to reach numerous platforms as characters climb (or jump, rather) their way up to the top. Another skill might be able to be used while in the air only (having used the jump), of which boosts your speed during the jump. With enough control of ones character and the skills and their timing... The same concepts initially used in the etherblade and raging tide jump initiation quests could be used in a new dungeon.

This could easily be used to add a great deal of variety to a multitude of dungeons. And this is just to begin with. I am sure they could come up with quite a lot of uses for this.

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

Devilskarma - Raging Tide wrote: »

oVenusArmanio, this is a VERY good base idea to work from actually. I believe the "tip box" is the same one as those coin pack skills and the 4 skills in the new starter area go in to? You have to love how all the trolls automatically attack anything that is beyond their intellectual capacity to comprehend. They automatically attack the "examples" you gave, rather than add anything at all constructive (of which, you should have seen coming b:chuckle). I love these forums! b:victory

Argument against the idea itself is constructive. Blindly following someone's idea rather than poking holes in it in order to modify the idea and force the person to adapt it into something workable gets you nowhere. Companies don't release content into a game right away, they test and work with the idea until it's something truly worth implementing. I suppose it's just beyond some people's intellectual capacity to understand that concept.

Being they gave 4 skills in the new starter area via this same exact method... It is not beyond them to again use 4 "skills" on a tip box item in various ways. They could create a dungeon that is crawling with mobs on the dungeon floor, and the tip box would give the ability to double jump in order to reach numerous platforms as characters climb (or jump, rather) their way up to the top. Another skill might be able to be used while in the air only (having used the jump), of which boosts your speed during the jump. With enough control of ones character and the skills and their timing... The same concepts initially used in the etherblade and raging tide jump initiation quests could be used in a new dungeon.

We already have the ability to jump great distances, rather than putting in tooltip boxes to achieve this they could simply enable the ability to do so while in dungeons. It makes no sense for us not to be able to do this anyway seeing as we can while outside dungeons. If you want speed boosts, we have pots that do that. They could give dungeon specific versions of those pots that expire when leaving. Both of these have the same effect as what you suggest. I still have yet to see one idea from anyone that justifies the implementation of tool tip boxes in instances. I'm not against refreshing content, but the way you people want it done is just plain convoluted.

This could easily be used to add a great deal of variety to a multitude of dungeons. And this is just to begin with. I am sure they could come up with quite a lot of uses for this.

I have replied in red.

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide · March 2014

I liked the idea of nerfing high levels in low level dungeons. Could work like a buff (more like debuff in this case) like the one we get during Morai Event to nerf a percentage of damage at least. Would make low level runs more fun. I know low levels don't necessarily need higher levels help, but several times it's good to have someone experienced in dungeons to help and not always the helper has a low level toon.

As for the passives suggested, they could be given after getting/completing a special quest inside the dungeon, taken from an NPC in there. For exemple, one quest could giver extra speed, another extra defense or attack, and so on. Only one quest per toon though and the item could be placed on those slot in inventory I forget the names now (think it's for badges). They could also work as buffs, but could not be overwritten (like the Morai Event one).

Or simply, as suggested, once a toon in level range for that dungeon (lv 59 to 79 in fb59 for exemple) enters it, he/she gets special skills for that dungeon. Could be random so people are not trapped on same roles everytime.

The idea of all squad members channelling the same skill to "seal" the boss is interesting, but I'm not sure how that would work with different number of members in squad or if someone dcs/afks/joins. Rewards could be given according to number of people in squad, and individual level (much like Call to Duties). A variation of the sealing method could be one random squad member get a sealing item which would be used to seal the deal (pun intended).

ovenusarmanio · March 2014

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

It makes little sense. If they were gonna bother changing mechanics it'd be best to give bosses or mobs new mechanics, rather than give players instance specific ones.

You keep saying that, but tell me what is the large functional difference between clicking a mob, and right clicking the item in your inventory. And clicking a mob, and clicking a skill on a mob? Again, this isn't all that different than has already been implemented in the game.

Instead of giving people Reel In they could.. Oh I don't know.. actually fix the issue that causes mobs to get stuck. That seems like a far better solution in my opinion. If your issue is that it's annoying to deal with mobs that are stuck in walls and that people aren't learning anything from dealing with them, then even Reel In doesn't solve the issues you have. It'd still be annoying to pull them with Reel In, and nobody is learning anything about their class by using a modified skill that they'd have no access to outside of the instance. Don't you think for new players it'd be a little weird having skills added to your class in each instance? And even weirder to have different ones added depending on the instance? Come on now Venus.

You asked for another annoyance that tip boxes could fix, and there is one. I didn't say it was the optimal solution. And new players fresh into the game within the first five minutes of gameplay are already introduced to tip boxes. If anyone had a hard time understanding the concept, it would be older players. As tip boxes are something that are already in use in the starter zones. So far it has not caused any reported confusion.

Purify Spell exists. So half of the classes already can under very common circumstances. Even if that is much later in the game.

Purify proc doesn't apply to all or even most players. The vast majority of the players will never get to use it. And I'm ofc not speaking of the people that can already do that. :P

Patience is a virtue, if people can't learn to be patient that's their problem. The game shouldn't have to change for their petty needs and it shouldn't try to baby them.

Patience is a virtue, but even if you have it, it doesn't mean everyone around you will have it. That's never going to change. And again, I agree that it is completely unnecessary. It's a it "this would be nice to get people to stop complaining" thing, not a "this is mandatory," type thing. Games are about having fun. It doesn't have to be necessary.

I'm fairly sure salads have vegetables. You know... lettuce, tomato, cucumbers, stuff like that. Though to be fair, if I don't know how to salad it's probably because I eat.. you know.. real food.

You can change a salad's taste a lot, just by adding different vegetables in there! And ofc there is the base to consider. You don't even need lettuce to have a salad. You can use fresh spinach greens, and that will change the taste considerably from plain old iceberg lettuce.

One or two new mechanics legacy mode does not make. Your suggestion is not legacy mode.

Read the OP. It was legacy mode. Temporarily nerfing a player so that they are of a level of power appropriate for the instance. Then tweaking the instance and giving it new rewards. It's a form of scaling the old dungeon to still be powerful and appropriate, and giving out new rewards for doing so. Just because it's not going about it the way you would prefer, doesn't mean it isn't what I proposed.

It takes very little time to actually hit 100. A revamp to lore throughout the game would even help to keep the player engaged while leveling. If they enjoy that sort of thing anyway. PWI needs a whole lot of things when it comes to keeping the player interested. Rewards should not be your motivation in a game, fun should. Why reinforce the currently accepted idea that it's all about the gear and the money? This is a game, we should do things for enjoyment. I get that some people love getting shiny new toys, but is that really the kind of way you want to try to engage people?

Doesn't matter if it takes a long time to hit 100. A lot of people who start this game, never reach 100. Go join any faction that takes all levels and you'll likely see a long list of people abandoning the game in their 20-30s. Look at all the posts by people on their little level 50-70 alt talking about coming back after quitting, because they had no one to play with. All the people over the years who have asked for friends on the forums. I read these forums a lot, probably more than I should. I know for a 100% fact that a good percentage of these people are quitting the game, because they had no one to play with and got bored. Rewarding veterans for playing with these people, actually playing, and not soloing everything for them? Would go a long way in new player engagement. The first part of a game is a very important, not just because it teaches you what to do, but because it's the part that draws a player in.

And I think that trying out new skills, and revamped favorites, can be fun for veterans as well. They get rewarded. There is the nostalgia factor. There is the fun of trying out new skills, etc.

I think people are enjoying the last couple of expansions quite a bit, and anyway, we haven't had a new player expansion since Genesis. I'd rather see something be geared toward that then even more endgame only content.

Devilskarma - Raging Tide wrote: »

oVenusArmanio, this is a VERY good base idea to work from actually. I believe the "tip box" is the same one as those coin pack skills and the 4 skills in the new starter area go in to? You have to love how all the trolls automatically attack anything that is beyond their intellectual capacity to comprehend. They automatically attack the "examples" you gave, rather than add anything at all constructive (of which, you should have seen coming b:chuckle). I love these forums! b:victory

Being they gave 4 skills in the new starter area via this same exact method... It is not beyond them to again use 4 "skills" on a tip box item in various ways. They could create a dungeon that is crawling with mobs on the dungeon floor, and the tip box would give the ability to double jump in order to reach numerous platforms as characters climb (or jump, rather) their way up to the top. Another skill might be able to be used while in the air only (having used the jump), of which boosts your speed during the jump. With enough control of ones character and the skills and their timing... The same concepts initially used in the etherblade and raging tide jump initiation quests could be used in a new dungeon.

This could easily be used to add a great deal of variety to a multitude of dungeons. And this is just to begin with. I am sure they could come up with quite a lot of uses for this.

Yea I saw it coming. You provide examples, that in no way have to even be implemented, and people take it as gospel truth. The main suggestion is the tip boxes. I do like the idea you had with the double jump. I remember they did something like that in HDD, and in one of the starter zone quests. It was fun. But then I like jumping.

There are so many things they can do now that would not effect PvP, which is what I like about them.

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide wrote: »

I liked the idea of nerfing high levels in low level dungeons. Could work like a buff (more like debuff in this case) like the one we get during Morai Event to nerf a percentage of damage at least. Would make low level runs more fun. I know low levels don't necessarily need higher levels help, but several times it's good to have someone experienced in dungeons to help and not always the helper has a low level toon.

As for the passives suggested, they could be given after getting/completing a special quest inside the dungeon, taken from an NPC in there. For exemple, one quest could giver extra speed, another extra defense or attack, and so on. Only one quest per toon though and the item could be placed on those slot in inventory I forget the names now (think it's for badges). They could also work as buffs, but could not be overwritten (like the Morai Event one).

Or simply, as suggested, once a toon in level range for that dungeon (lv 59 to 79 in fb59 for exemple) enters it, he/she gets special skills for that dungeon. Could be random so people are not trapped on same roles everytime.

The idea of all squad members channelling the same skill to "seal" the boss is interesting, but I'm not sure how that would work with different number of members in squad or if someone dcs/afks/joins. Rewards could be given according to number of people in squad, and individual level (much like Call to Duties). A variation of the sealing method could be one random squad member get a sealing item which would be used to seal the deal (pun intended).

The tip boxes currently have an equip slot in your inventory, and can add multiple skills to your character. These expire upon leaving the area.

Yeah I'm not sure how it would have to handle the channeling thing. Although the idea was to get everyone to work together for one final smackdown. It was just a silly idea though, and was also based on an existing quest. One of the bosses near wraithgate have you seal it's power in order to beat it solo. It drastically reduces it's defenses/hp turning a time consuming boss into a kitten. It really made going through all the trouble of obtaining the artifact worth it.

Xainou - Sanctuary · March 2014

...you know what I think about our community and difficult instances, Venus. b:surrender

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

You keep saying that, but tell me what is the large functional difference between clicking a mob, and right clicking the item in your inventory. And clicking a mob, and clicking a skill on a mob? Again, this isn't all that different than has already been implemented in the game.

...how does your reply make sense? What exactly are you asking? I'm talking about giving the mobs/bosses new mechanics. That would require the player to deal with them differently than they usually would. I don't quite know what you're on about.

You asked for another annoyance that tip boxes could fix, and there is one. I didn't say it was the optimal solution. And new players fresh into the game within the first five minutes of gameplay are already introduced to tip boxes. If anyone had a hard time understanding the concept, it would be older players. As tip boxes are something that are already in use in the starter zones. So far it has not caused any reported confusion.

Okay, let me rephrase. Give me a situation where tip boxes can fix current issues better than.. you know.. actually fixing the issues. I really don't understand how putting tip boxes in to give a skill to deal with an issue is a better idea than fixing it, or is in any way acceptable. "Hey guys, we know there's an issue with our game so we're gonna break immersion and give you a way to control your mobs. Instead of fixing our game." There's a difference between one instance of tip boxes in the entire game and adding them to most dungeons, forcing players to adapt to mechanics they otherwise would not have. PvE skills transfer to PvP, your tip box idea would hinder that. People would grow accustomed to whatever passive or active skills they acquire, and rather than adapting to bosses with their personal skills they'd be doing so with the boxes. That alone is reason enough to keep from implementing your idea.

Purify proc doesn't apply to all or even most players. The vast majority of the players will never get to use it. And I'm ofc not speaking of the people that can already do that. :P

Vast majority? There's a very large amount of people running around with it. This includes non cash shoppers and non merchants. The point remains that there are a fair amount of people who can outrun mobs in most dungeons without any effort.

Patience is a virtue, but even if you have it, it doesn't mean everyone around you will have it. That's never going to change. And again, I agree that it is completely unnecessary. It's a it "this would be nice to get people to stop complaining" thing, not a "this is mandatory," type thing. Games are about having fun. It doesn't have to be necessary.

Just because people don't have patience doesn't mean PWE should cater to them. Run speed is a minor complaint. Nobody complains about the way dungeons currently are, unless it's to say that they're boring and I guarantee you that tip boxes will NOT solve this issue. It'll be Primal all over again. New content that's all flash and no substance. It doesn't do anything for the game or the gamer, it just gives you something new to do but there's no quality to it. It's an illusion of content, put there to occupy you and make you think there's plenty to do when really it's mind numbing, tedious, and just plain not needed.

You can change a salad's taste a lot, just by adding different vegetables in there! And ofc there is the base to consider. You don't even need lettuce to have a salad. You can use fresh spinach greens, and that will change the taste considerably from plain old iceberg lettuce.

Salad is nasty. Go eat a burger.

Read the OP. It was legacy mode. Temporarily nerfing a player so that they are of a level of power appropriate for the instance. Then tweaking the instance and giving it new rewards. It's a form of scaling the old dungeon to still be powerful and appropriate, and giving out new rewards for doing so. Just because it's not going about it the way you would prefer, doesn't mean it isn't what I proposed.

What you propose is a poor excuse. Your suggestion is, as I said earlier, in the same boat as primal. It's not going to help with engaging the player. The instance would be run a handful of times then wind up dead. What PWI needs is not what you suggest.

Doesn't matter if it takes a long time to hit 100. A lot of people who start this game, never reach 100. Go join any faction that takes all levels and you'll likely see a long list of people abandoning the game in their 20-30s. Look at all the posts by people on their little level 50-70 alt talking about coming back after quitting, because they had no one to play with. All the people over the years who have asked for friends on the forums. I read these forums a lot, probably more than I should. I know for a 100% fact that a good percentage of these people are quitting the game, because they had no one to play with and got bored. Rewarding veterans for playing with these people, actually playing, and not soloing everything for them? Would go a long way in new player engagement. The first part of a game is a very important, not just because it teaches you what to do, but because it's the part that draws a player in.

Do you know why that is? It's because the game is a pitiful excuse of an MMO. It does not engage you. It does not grip you. It does not give you that sense of immersion. Even though it's an MMO the game should have solo content as well, a major problem is that very few MMOs are good on their own. They require friends or they become dull. If the game could do a better job at the gaming level, and not at the social one, it would be doing better. PWI is basically one big chat room, I read the forums too and I know plenty of people only log in for the sake of chatting with friends. To be effective your idea would need to appeal to them too, and if they're at the point of only logging in to chat I doubt a half-assed revamp would do anything to bring them back into dungeons.

And I think that trying out new skills, and revamped favorites, can be fun for veterans as well. They get rewarded. There is the nostalgia factor. There is the fun of trying out new skills, etc.

Nostalgia doesn't get you very far once the novelty wears off. Look at a certain game that had a version of itself from 07 released. People flocked to it, now it's got a very small amount of players.

I think people are enjoying the last couple of expansions quite a bit, and anyway, we haven't had a new player expansion since Genesis. I'd rather see something be geared toward that then even more endgame only content.

And I want them to revamp the game completely. To make it immersive and interesting, to give it a rich story and things to explore, but I doubt I'll get what I want.

Much red

ovenusarmanio · March 2014

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

...how does your reply make sense? What exactly are you asking? I'm talking about giving the mobs/bosses new mechanics. That would require the player to deal with them differently than they usually would. I don't quite know what you're on about.

You keep saying that any change to the instance must be boss mechanics. That it's the right way, and tip boxes are the wrong way. So tell me why is it "better" for bosses to drop axes, instead of just giving you the skill. I've already demonstrated that play style variety has been used on many games, how it can add variety and prettier animations, how it's flexible enough to be used a large variety of ways. You've just asserted over and over again that only doing it by bosses is better. You've provided no real reason for that though. So tell me, what does having it ONLY be done by making every boss different that is so much better.

Okay, let me rephrase. Give me a situation where tip boxes can fix current issues better than.. you know.. actually fixing the issues. I really don't understand how putting tip boxes in to give a skill to deal with an issue is a better idea than fixing it, or is in any way acceptable. "Hey guys, we know there's an issue with our game so we're gonna break immersion and give you a way to control your mobs. Instead of fixing our game." There's a difference between one instance of tip boxes in the entire game and adding them to most dungeons, forcing players to adapt to mechanics they otherwise would not have. PvE skills transfer to PvP, your tip box idea would hinder that. People would grow accustomed to whatever passive or active skills they acquire, and rather than adapting to bosses with their personal skills they'd be doing so with the boxes. That alone is reason enough to keep from implementing your idea.

Where did I say most instances in the game needed tip boxes? Or that it had to be skills that affected PvP. I remember proposing the exact opposite in fact, unique skills mostly. Have you actually played a lowbie these days with someone other than a designated friend? Which is like the only group of instances I proposed doing in a quantity even close to most? They are dead. They are mostly run by high levels zipping through them. People have a hard time making a squad for those instances without grabbing high levels. Giving the high levels a reason to run them with them at a level of power appropriate for the dungeon, would do a lot to make that problem better. Tip boxes being used to nerf the higher levels =/= lowbies wouldn't learn how to run those. They'd sure learn it better than watching some high level's behind. Most lowbie content is already done solo.

And I said the speed buff was an example of a minor annoyance that could be fixed with a tip box. And outlined why it would be better (easy to retract if it causes too many issues, can be tweaked by each class, doesn't effect PvP for the most part, etc.) You just disagree on principle that it's annoyance that should be fixed.

Vast majority? There's a very large amount of people running around with it. This includes non cash shoppers and non merchants. The point remains that there are a fair amount of people who can outrun mobs in most dungeons without any effort.

Yes, the vast majority. The GMs have confirmed that the vast majority of players are not running around in endgame gear. Most people do not have access to the purify proc. People who do are already so vastly overpowered compared to most pve instances, that giving them a minor speed boost in dungeons only wouldn't break the game. I wouldn't suggest outrunning everything become something that was easily accessible to literally everyone though.

Just because people don't have patience doesn't mean PWE should cater to them. Run speed is a minor complaint. Nobody complains about the way dungeons currently are, unless it's to say that they're boring and I guarantee you that tip boxes will NOT solve this issue. It'll be Primal all over again. New content that's all flash and no substance. It doesn't do anything for the game or the gamer, it just gives you something new to do but there's no quality to it. It's an illusion of content, put there to occupy you and make you think there's plenty to do when really it's mind numbing, tedious, and just plain not needed.

Most games add variety to spice it up. Primal is just a few dailies. Adding tip boxes to dungeons can add quite a lot of content in the way of instance specific skills, that could break things otherwise. It could change the way you play the game, in a way that you don't use elsewhere. Making that dungeon unique. It can be coupled with the boss changes and environmental hazards already being placed into the game, to give more variation. If you can't figure out how being able to change play style by quite a bit, in a way that's variable, can add variety to a game then I don't know what to say. As other people have noted, it's just a base idea. It doesn't have to be implemented in any of the ways I suggested. Tip Boxes as a mechanic allow them to change the way you play your character in a large variety of ways. And they can easily be removed and changed at whim, because they are not actual equipment or skills that people spent time working on.

Salad is nasty. Go eat a burger.

I like both.

What you propose is a poor excuse. Your suggestion is, as I said earlier, in the same boat as primal. It's not going to help with engaging the player. The instance would be run a handful of times then wind up dead. What PWI needs is not what you suggest.

Yes, yes they do. They need a reason to get new players to interact with old ones. Not everything can be for a veteran player.

Do you know why that is? It's because the game is a pitiful excuse of an MMO. It does not engage you. It does not grip you. It does not give you that sense of immersion. Even though it's an MMO the game should have solo content as well, a major problem is that very few MMOs are good on their own. They require friends or they become dull. If the game could do a better job at the gaming level, and not at the social one, it would be doing better. PWI is basically one big chat room, I read the forums too and I know plenty of people only log in for the sake of chatting with friends. To be effective your idea would need to appeal to them too, and if they're at the point of only logging in to chat I doubt a half-assed revamp would do anything to bring them back into dungeons.

No, no the legacy idea doesn't need to appeal to people who is already half way out the door. There are still quite a few people who actually play the rewarding PvE content. Keyword there being rewarding. If you already don't PvE, short of completely overhauling the new game, you're probably not going to be interested in it no matter what they do. There are still quite a lot of people that enjoy PvE though. Adding variety to PvE though typically has to be done really carefully so as not to adjust PvP. You can't really get wild and creative with PvE skills because they will be used in PvP as well. Tip Boxes fix that, you can do pretty much any type of instance you want played anyway you want with no skill sets, and have it just expire when you leave. Thus not making much impact on PvP.

Anyway, after a while, it is natural for players to lose interest. Most of the successful older games are not populated by a handful of veterans, or even mostly veterans. They get new people to come in as older people gradually lose interest because they can't keep their interest without being a completely different game. That's true of literally every service based industry. Eventually, customers stop being interested in doing business with you. Which is why you need to appeal to new customers so that there is at least always someone interested. The fact that this game is still kicking and release content 9 years after it's initial release in China, shows that this game is actually pretty darn engaging. I know most people who did stick around, say that the game is already plenty interesting and immersive. A lot of the ones we lost at that point, dislike the game's balance between work and reward, not the game itself. Tip boxes won't stop those people from quitting ofc, because their issue is largely PvP focused. But it can stop the people that hit mid level and quit because they are bored and lonely from leaving.

And no, people pick an MMO for the social experience. Most people who choose MMOs want playing with lots of other people to be a part of their core experience. That's why they choose an MMO over all the other types of great games. Adding in solo content, when 90% of the time new players are alone, wouldn't do anything to keep them drawn into the game.

Nostalgia doesn't get you very far once the novelty wears off. Look at a certain game that had a version of itself from 07 released. People flocked to it, now it's got a very small amount of players.

Hence, there needs to be rewards to make it worth doing. Even interesting boss mechanics won't keep you doing it over and over again, unless you're getting something worthwhile out of it.

And I want them to revamp the game completely. To make it immersive and interesting, to give it a rich story and things to explore, but I doubt I'll get what I want.

If you want an entirely different game, then you maybe don't want PWI anymore. Perhaps a PWI 3 would be more your speed. Expansions rarely change the completely.

Asone - Raging Tide · March 2014

ZentDreigon - Raging Tide wrote: »

I liked the idea of nerfing high levels in low level dungeons. Could work like a buff (more like debuff in this case) like the one we get during Morai Event to nerf a percentage of damage at least. Would make low level runs more fun. I know low levels don't necessarily need higher levels help, but several times it's good to have someone experienced in dungeons to help and not always the helper has a low level toon.

+1

I'm all for this idea as well.

@oVenusArmanio

Liking your suggestions. Lets just pray they pay attention to it. b:surrender

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

You keep saying that any change to the instance must be boss mechanics. That it's the right way, and tip boxes are the wrong way. So tell me why is it "better" for bosses to drop axes, instead of just giving you the skill. I've already demonstrated that play style variety has been used on many games, how it can add variety and prettier animations, how it's flexible enough to be used a large variety of ways. You've just asserted over and over again that only doing it by bosses is better. You've provided no real reason for that though. So tell me, what does having it ONLY be done by making every boss different that is so much better.

What's engaging about being handed new skills? There's absolutely nothing about it that would get the player more involved in the run. Giving mobs and bosses new mechanics, certain objectives required for killing them during the fight would be far more engaging than just having new skills thrown in your face. Tell how how having one or two new skills is better than requiring the player to have keen reflexes and knowledge of their class in order to be useful during the fight? I'd much rather have a boss that challenges the team and requires the squad to have decent reflexes and knowledge of the game to bring down rather than being given a new toy to play with.

Where did I say most instances in the game needed tip boxes? Or that it had to be skills that affected PvP. I remember proposing the exact opposite in fact, unique skills mostly. Have you actually played a lowbie these days with someone other than a designated friend? Which is like the only group of instances I proposed doing in a quantity even close to most? They are dead. They are mostly run by high levels zipping through them. People have a hard time making a squad for those instances without grabbing high levels. Giving the high levels a reason to run them with them at a level of power appropriate for the dungeon, would do a lot to make that problem better. Tip boxes being used to nerf the higher levels =/= lowbies wouldn't learn how to run those. They'd sure learn it better than watching some high level's behind. Most lowbie content is already done solo.

Regardless of how many instances you want the boxes in my point stands. We've established your box idea wouldn't affect PvP, so I have no idea why you're mentioning that. The point I was making with PvP is that people learn their character in PvE, giving them new skills instead of having them adapt their current skills to different mechanics would get them used to the wrong things. They won't have those boxes in PvP, why baby them in PvP when we could have actual mechanics on mobs and bosses?

With the game as it is now, it would take more than just some reward to make a high level run with lower levels. Due to the gear, even if they're nerfed, people can easily solo at-level FBs as seen from the rebirth system. I was easily taking down 29, 39, 59, 69, and 79 while at that level thanks to my gear. If you want higher levels running with lower levels for rewards there's a whole lot more to fix than just revamping a dungeon. Even if they did there's still zero reason to run with lowbies. This game's been giving life to the playstyle of "solo solo solo fast fast fast who cares who needs help as long as I get it done". The dungeons would need to scale down the armor's power as well, and even another game with level scaling proved unable to truly do that. Honestly, now that I think about it your whole idea can't even work due to the power of gear alone since one of your main points is that you want high levels and low levels working together.

And I said the speed buff was an example of a minor annoyance that could be fixed with a tip box. And outlined why it would be better (easy to retract if it causes too many issues, can be tweaked by each class, doesn't effect PvP for the most part, etc.) You just disagree on principle that it's annoyance that should be fixed.

The speed of Arcanes isn't something that needs to be fixed. I think getting debuffed by TT bosses is an annoyance. I think kill count in any dungeon is an annoyance. Do they need to be fixed? No, because they're there for a reason. Like the difference in running speed. Your other idea of a minor annoyance was something that should be fixed, not worked around in an immersion breaking way. You're gonna need to come up with other examples to support your opinion that there's actually issues the bless box would fix.

Yes, the vast majority. The GMs have confirmed that the vast majority of players are not running around in endgame gear. Most people do not have access to the purify proc. People who do are already so vastly overpowered compared to most pve instances, that giving them a minor speed boost in dungeons only wouldn't break the game. I wouldn't suggest outrunning everything become something that was easily accessible to literally everyone though.

I don't know.. it seems like a very fair amount of people have at least an R9r3 weapon these days. Even if the vast majority don't, the idea that Arcanes need a speed boost is absurd. This is coming from a former Cleric, and not someone who played it for a week then moved on.

Most games add variety to spice it up. Primal is just a few dailies. Adding tip boxes to dungeons can add quite a lot of content in the way of instance specific skills, that could break things otherwise. It could change the way you play the game, in a way that you don't use elsewhere. Making that dungeon unique. It can be coupled with the boss changes and environmental hazards already being placed into the game, to give more variation. If you can't figure out how being able to change play style by quite a bit, in a way that's variable, can add variety to a game then I don't know what to say. As other people have noted, it's just a base idea. It doesn't have to be implemented in any of the ways I suggested. Tip Boxes as a mechanic allow them to change the way you play your character in a large variety of ways. And they can easily be removed and changed at whim, because they are not actual equipment or skills that people spent time working on.

Adding new mechanics wouldn't change the way you play... how exactly? The way you want to vary the way people play just seems over the top. Give solid examples of the way you want these boxes to work, because so far your examples were things we simply don't need or can be done better by actually fixing the issues. You still haven't given any solid examples of what exactly they should do in certain instances.

I like both.

coostory

Yes, yes they do. They need a reason to get new players to interact with old ones. Not everything can be for a veteran player.

I never said everything had to be. What I want is for there to be truly engaging content. That's what PWI needs.

No, no the legacy idea doesn't need to appeal to people who is already half way out the door. There are still quite a few people who actually play the rewarding PvE content. Keyword there being rewarding. If you already don't PvE, short of completely overhauling the new game, you're probably not going to be interested in it no matter what they do. There are still quite a lot of people that enjoy PvE though. Adding variety to PvE though typically has to be done really carefully so as not to adjust PvP. You can't really get wild and creative with PvE skills because they will be used in PvP as well. Tip Boxes fix that, you can do pretty much any type of instance you want played anyway you want with no skill sets, and have it just expire when you leave. Thus not making much impact on PvP.

I'm sorry... what? The game doesn't need to appeal to people who are already bored of the way things currently are? No no no, it NEEDS to appeal to the people who are halfway out the door, because there's some part of them that still wants to log in and play, or at the very least chat with friends. Giving them something new, something exciting, something that can actually hold their interest would be GOOD for the game. You say you want people to do things, but you don't think it's important to try to keep people who aren't fully involved in the game? That's a conflicting statement. "I want new stuff to keep people interested in the game and spice things up. Oh, but only people who are already interested in the game. The people who don't want to PvE can just go somewhere else."

What I'm talking about isn't editing PvE skills. It's changing the mechanics of bosses and mobs, or even the dungeons themselves. I really believe PWI could benefit more from full dungeon overhauls rather than some silly box giving new skills.

Anyway, after a while, it is natural for players to lose interest. Most of the successful older games are not populated by a handful of veterans, or even mostly veterans. They get new people to come in as older people gradually lose interest because they can't keep their interest without being a completely different game. That's true of literally every service based industry. Eventually, customers stop being interested in doing business with you. Which is why you need to appeal to new customers so that there is at least always someone interested. The fact that this game is still kicking and release content 9 years after it's initial release in China, shows that this game is actually pretty darn engaging. I know most people who did stick around, say that the game is already plenty interesting and immersive. A lot of the ones we lost at that point, dislike the game's balance between work and reward, not the game itself. Tip boxes won't stop those people from quitting ofc, because their issue is largely PvP focused. But it can stop the people that hit mid level and quit because they are bored and lonely from leaving.

Of course people quit, that's just how it is. You don't need to explain the cycle to me as I'm already well aware.

Yeah, let's cater to the carebears. The carebears aren't what funds this game, it's the PvPers. There needs to be an overhaul in PvP as well but that is a whole other story (Lifehunter and Elimination anyone?). What exactly do your tip boxes do that my suggestion doesn't? Other than requiring less work, the boxes do nothing but add a little flash and no substance. Which I suppose would be fitting, considering the latest trend of updates, but really.. without substance what good is an update really? I don't see your idea having that massive of an impact unless you've left out something very VERY important.

And no, people pick an MMO for the social experience. Most people who choose MMOs want playing with lots of other people to be a part of their core experience. That's why they choose an MMO over all the other types of great games. Adding in solo content, when 90% of the time new players are alone, wouldn't do anything to keep them drawn into the game.

Yes, they do come for the people, but what happens when their friends or guild mates log off? They get bored. You have to remember that at the heart of every MMORPG is a, you know.. game. Just because people play to be social doesn't mean it's okay to slack off on the game aspect because that's exactly what it is. A game. It NEEDS good content. The social aspect comes easy, you simply log on and your friends are there. It's the gaming part that's hard to truly get right.

Hence, there needs to be rewards to make it worth doing. Even interesting boss mechanics won't keep you doing it over and over again, unless you're getting something worthwhile out of it.

Rewards shouldn't be the only motivation though. If they make an instance that's actually fun as well as rewarding they'd be golden. They'd need to make quite a few of these though, instead of only one. PWI lacks variety.

If you want an entirely different game, then you maybe don't want PWI anymore. Perhaps a PWI 3 would be more your speed. Expansions rarely change the completely.
Revamp =/= complete change. Updated graphics, better boss/mob/dungeon mechanics, deeper story, larger world and more immersive world. Those are not things that would turn the game into something completely different unless they completely rewrote the story and gave us different classes and skills. They're changes that would improve every aspect of the game and make it far better. We'll never get improvements like that, but even you have to admit a larger world with things like caves or secret areas to explore, an improved story with a much deeper lore to it, and new mechanics in PvE would do a whole lot for the game.

Gurl u cray

Veneir - Dreamweaver · March 2014

Tch, Venu you know Zan is just trying to argue with you to get under your nails, why are you so silly? *ruffles*

--anyway.
The main con to this that I can see, is that it would be entireily unrealistic. However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with construction to the idea. I think it would be a very good place for things to get addressed that 'everyone wants' for PvE but know it would unbalance PvP, like cleric running speed.
As long as they are not doing something like giving every class stealth in PvE instances, it's fine as far as I can care. (And even then, there really is not a reason to not give every class stealth. Except that it would just be kind of euh... defeat the purpose of the instance not being five seconds long.)

heerohex#3018 · March 2014

Would add an interesting variance to the game.

Taking the long and pain less posts into account i think this is a rather neat idea. Something I "Hope" the devs would like to play with.

Love the idea of the FB cave and Extra Skills Running ETC. If this is limited to areas this is a brilliant idea and gives new ways and new puzzles to deal with.

So when my log file decides it wants to load ill add it in... Must be the weekend...

Katinas - Morai · March 2014

Venu, your ideas are great and have high potential in making game more interesting. I liked all of them.b:victory

And as everybody else stated just ignore Zan. He is sort of attention wh**e/drama queen on our server, like every server hasb:chuckleb:laugh

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

Katinas - Morai wrote: »

Venu, your ideas are great and have high potential in making game more interesting. I liked all of them.b:victory

And as everybody else stated just ignore Zan. He is sort of attention wh**e/drama queen on our server, like every server hasb:chuckleb:laugh

Hmmm... I'd have to disagree. PRIESST is the drama queen of the server, I don't actually start any of the arguments I'm involved in. This is a common misconception, though I do hope I cleared it up for you.

Regardless of your opinion on me my points are valid. Rather than insult me you should tell me why my ideas are bad. If you're going to post your opinion then at least make it constructive. Not that I really believe you're capable of that. I imagine you're like everyone else who has something against me, you say something negative with nothing to back up the claim then proceed to do absolutely nothing of value.

A word of advice though, just because someone disagrees with another person doesn't mean they're trolling. If the world was full of people holding hands and circle jerking each other we'd get absolutely nowhere.

Devilskarma - Raging Tide · March 2014

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Hmmm... I'd have to disagree. PRIESST is the drama queen of the server, I don't actually start any of the arguments I'm involved in. This is a common misconception, though I do hope I cleared it up for you.

Regardless of your opinion on me my points are valid. Rather than insult me you should tell me why my ideas are bad. If you're going to post your opinion then at least make it constructive. Not that I really believe you're capable of that. I imagine you're like everyone else who has something against me, you say something negative with nothing to back up the claim then proceed to do absolutely nothing of value.

A word of advice though, just because someone disagrees with another person doesn't mean they're trolling. If the world was full of people holding hands and circle jerking each other we'd get absolutely nowhere.

Disagree all you want, now let us analyze your bs point by point after giving YOUR first post...

1. PWE does not listen to english player suggestions involving actual gameplay. <= this would have been fine on it's own, and wouldnt have "started" an arguement...

2. The idea itself is horrible. <= STARTED the arguement right here and offered JACK and SQUAT whatsoever. This statement has NO constructive anything and is just an empty TROLL statement. When IN FACT, the base concept is a GREAT idea which can be built on in and of itself... But you wouldnt be able to wrap your head around THAT concept.

No other game has this and for good reason. <= worthless statement, no proof, and no reasons given to back it up either b:victory ... that didnt even need to be written.

3. What you want is a speed passive for Arcanes. <= Took an example and used the example to attack.

Just come out and say it. <= Takes previous attacking statement and amplifies it for the sole purpose of arguing.

4. Why are you leaving the melee out? <= THIS is a good question at first to ask YOURSELF... and instead of being an *** HAT... Try contributing to this conversation / idea and add your thoughts to THIS very question then...

What do we get bro? <= "waa waa waa" b:cry I cant comprehend the OP.

5. If you want different boss mechanics there are better ways to do it. FSP did a fairly decent job of this, even though the instance still wound up boring. <= just a building of bs on top of being ignorant to everything previous

6. Instead of giving slightly different versions of skills (run speed passive.. pfftbahahahaha) a better idea would be to give a different BH entirely. <= This begins a completely separate idea which has NOTHING to do with the OP.

Make the FBs tie into the lore somehow and allow people to run them as characters of PWI's past. It'd give people backstory on the game, add to the lore which PWI desperately needs, and do more for the game than what you suggest. Though these could also end up having to be solo dungeons, seeing as I doubt PWE has the creativity to come up with 6-10 characters complete with backstory. That, and it'd be a pain for each person to choose a character. Could force rainbow squad but that raises other problems. Then again, solo content could be nice. Make it a new quest series for Celestial players. Allow them to go in and play as a character from the past. Hell, why limit it to FBs? Let them go to special areas and they can go back in time and live that person's life. Learn how they rose to greatness or became what they became or something. This would be especially cool if we could do it for a villain as well. <= THIS would have been GREAT in a separate post as an OP in and of itself, without needing to start arguements for no reason than your apparent need to start ****

7. 6 was getting pretty long. Anyway, you get the idea. The more I think about it the more I like it, but it doesn't really tie into this thread. <= continues from your 6.

Either way I don't like your idea. <= Opinion stated.

But it helped me arrive at mine so, it gets .1 points. <= no one cares

8. Toodles. Maybe I'll make a thread on this. Or post it in that quest thing. Was that thread a quest thing? I don't remember.. something about lore and quests and stuff. Oh well. <= Blah blah blah, talking to yourself like an idiot

Someone tell me when you read this. <= who dafuq gonna reply to you to tell you anything given how you pointless start arguments as provided the proof in writing and given YOUR own first reply to the OP in this thread?

So yeah... MR "I don't actually start any of the arguments I'm involved in" b:chuckle Stay clueless b:bye b:kiss

Zanryu - Lothranis · March 2014

Devilskarma - Raging Tide wrote: »

Disagree all you want, now let us analyze your bs point by point after giving YOUR first post...

1. PWE does not listen to english player suggestions involving actual gameplay. <= this would have been fine on it's own, and wouldnt have "started" an arguement...

2. The idea itself is horrible. <= STARTED the arguement right here and offered JACK and SQUAT whatsoever. This statement has NO constructive anything and is just an empty TROLL statement. When IN FACT, the base concept is a GREAT idea which can be built on in and of itself... But you wouldnt be able to wrap your head around THAT concept.

No other game has this and for good reason. <= worthless statement, no proof, and no reasons given to back it up either b:victory ... that didnt even need to be written.

3. What you want is a speed passive for Arcanes. <= Took an example and used the example to attack.

Just come out and say it. <= Takes previous attacking statement and amplifies it for the sole purpose of arguing.

4. Why are you leaving the melee out? <= THIS is a good question at first to ask YOURSELF... and instead of being an *** HAT... Try contributing to this conversation / idea and add your thoughts to THIS very question then...

What do we get bro? <= "waa waa waa" b:cry I cant comprehend the OP.

5. If you want different boss mechanics there are better ways to do it. FSP did a fairly decent job of this, even though the instance still wound up boring. <= just a building of bs on top of being ignorant to everything previous

6. Instead of giving slightly different versions of skills (run speed passive.. pfftbahahahaha) a better idea would be to give a different BH entirely. <= This begins a completely separate idea which has NOTHING to do with the OP.

Make the FBs tie into the lore somehow and allow people to run them as characters of PWI's past. It'd give people backstory on the game, add to the lore which PWI desperately needs, and do more for the game than what you suggest. Though these could also end up having to be solo dungeons, seeing as I doubt PWE has the creativity to come up with 6-10 characters complete with backstory. That, and it'd be a pain for each person to choose a character. Could force rainbow squad but that raises other problems. Then again, solo content could be nice. Make it a new quest series for Celestial players. Allow them to go in and play as a character from the past. Hell, why limit it to FBs? Let them go to special areas and they can go back in time and live that person's life. Learn how they rose to greatness or became what they became or something. This would be especially cool if we could do it for a villain as well. <= THIS would have been GREAT in a separate post as an OP in and of itself, without needing to start arguements for no reason than your apparent need to start ****

7. 6 was getting pretty long. Anyway, you get the idea. The more I think about it the more I like it, but it doesn't really tie into this thread. <= continues from your 6.

Either way I don't like your idea. <= Opinion stated.

But it helped me arrive at mine so, it gets .1 points. <= no one cares

8. Toodles. Maybe I'll make a thread on this. Or post it in that quest thing. Was that thread a quest thing? I don't remember.. something about lore and quests and stuff. Oh well. <= Blah blah blah, talking to yourself like an idiot

Someone tell me when you read this. <= who dafuq gonna reply to you to tell you anything given how you pointless start arguments as provided the proof in writing and given YOUR own first reply to the OP in this thread?

So yeah... MR "I don't actually start any of the arguments I'm involved in" b:chuckle Stay clueless b:bye b:kiss

1. You seem angry, friend.
2. It was expanded upon in posts that came after, which you conveniently ignore.
3. Because I'm going to say it's a bad idea using something irrelevant as an example, right?
4. Why should I ask myself why Melee is being left out? It's not my idea.
5. You call me ignorant but offer no explanation as to why.
6. Much good. Very idea. Wow.
7. Such nice. Many awesome. Wow.
8. So you insult me with no reason and I'm the ******? Interesting. Very interesting.

I didn't say anything to you or provoke you in any way, you read my opinions and took offense to them for whatever reason. You attacked my post with no provocation and insulted me when I in no way did anything with the purpose of offending you. My "argument" is with Venus. She had an idea and posted about it, I posted the reasons I disagree with her. It's called healthy discussion. It's strange that you can't seem to grasp that idea if I'm the ignorant one. Oh well.

Since you seem so intent on arguing with me, and not in a constructive way, go through the entire thread and look at my posts. I want you to discuss each one of my points rather than conveniently ignoring them. Silly guy, you're silly. Just look at that argument I picked with you. I sure did go out of my way to target you, antagonize you, and make you mad at me. Yessir.

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