Official APS Nerf Clarification

LostPoet - Dreamweaver
LostPoet - Dreamweaver Posts: 396 Arc User
edited March 2014 in General Discussion
There was so much discussion and debate as to how much APS and how much it has been nerfed so I wanted to create a thread that would contain all the information.
As people post to this thread, I'll update this post with greater detail.
(if you have links to other thread with proof from GM or screenies, please link in response).


  1. Q: What is the max speed before you face the nerf?
    • A: 3.33 APS is the max before you hit the nerf

  2. Q: How much damage is nerfed @ 4.00?
    • A: 5% of you damage is reduced. (As said by GM)

  3. Q: How much damage is nerfed @ 5.00?
    • A: 10% Damage nerf (As said/confirmed by WannaBM - Archosaur)

  4. Q: How much Accuracy is lost in PvE/PvP @ 4.00/5.00 APS ?
    • A: Both PvP/PvE have a 20% accuracy nerf, but because monsters have negligible evasion, its most prominently seen in PvE against endgame players. (As said by: SylenThunder - Sanctuary & Salari - Raging Tide)

  5. Q: How much Accuracy is lost in PvP @ 4.00/5.00 APS ?
    • Answer above

  6. Q: For a 5.00 Demon sin with G16 interval daggers, is it more effective to drop to 4.00? If so, what is the best way in doing so?
      • -> (Option where money is no issue) : Get R8 reforge chest with interval, and R8 reforge pants and boots, with any stats you prefer. Set bonus for 2 Pieces is +1300HP, and 3 pieces = -0.10 Interval. Then change your wrists to G15 matching your helm, for the +5 ATK lvl bonus, but they will still have -0.10 interval. The HP bonus from the R8 reforge, is essentially like have one gear +12; the bonus is awesome! And the resistances on the R8 reforge gear are much higher than TT, increasing survivability + the refines also give better HP and you can get some nice stats on the legs and boots. Essentially, the BEST aps set I could recommend. (can get expensive rolling -interval on the chest, and rolling other pieces for "better" stats)
      • -> (Upgrading Armor Option) : I would recommend this solution, as it gives the best benefits for least cost. Wrists -> G15, Boot ->G16, Helm -> G16. 2 G15 pieces (wrists + pants) still give you your ATK+5. 2 pieces G16 (Helm+Boots) = +700 HP.
      • -> (Ornament Option) : I wouldn't recommend this as a best solution, but you could swap out your Lionheart neck and belt for a Cube neck and Warsong belt. 1 benefit of this, is that you can adjust your m.def/p.def by getting 1 elemental ornament and 1 physical ornament. So when Emperor is casting his stupid AoE, he'll hit 3-4k instead of the 5-6k on you.
      • -> (Option if your going R9RR) : Not as great of a solution as the R8 aps, but you can swap out your ornaments. Making a sin end-game PvP pretty much requires R9RR for most effectiveness in survivability and damage output. So since you will get the R9 belt anyways, you can use that + use a Cube Neck, which is also something you will get for end-game. Generally I recommend magical Cube neck, as you will probably have a skycover or sign of frost chaos ring that should be heavily refined for extra p.Def. (Then again, if your going R9, probably should switch to sage, and use windshield with normal aps gear for most effectiveness. Yes, 3.33 sage aps is really power in PvE.)

  7. Q: For a 5.00 Demon sin with G16 interval daggers, is it more effective to drop to 4.00 with G15 legs and boots?
    / Q: For a 5.00 Demon sin with G16 interval daggers, is it more effective to drop to 4.00 with different ornaments?
    • Question reworded & Answer above

  8. Q: For a 4.00 Demon sin with R9 daggers to drop to 3.33 (possibly switch to sage) ?
    • A: When running FC with a R9 belt and experience necklace from Dreamchaser packs, my sin was 3.33 sparked in aps and I was killing the FC bosses just as fast; if not faster, than before. Though, I obviously didn't regenerate as much chi as before, I was still able to kill them in 1 spark or less. Switching to sage, and using windshield to hit 3.33 is a viable option, or using different ornaments such as Cube neck and R9 belt. Or you could also upgrade your Wrists to G15, and boots and helm to G16(wrists + pants = +5 atk lvls, helm + boots +700 HP) or get R8 chest, pants, boots, with interval only on chest or boots, and upgrade wrists to G15(best if not switching to sage for set bonus and armor defense for survivability). I think full R9, end-game sins are best switching to Sage as sage skills are much more potent in PvP. (please confirm)???

  9. Q: For a 5.00 BM to switch to 4.00 or 3.33 (switch to sage or swap out gears)?
    • A:Respond with more input.
    • Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
      9. Personally for pve, 5 aps is the way to go for me, 4 aps, not so much. When you farm tt, the extra chi acquired at 5aps, helps deal with bosses, at 4aps, you are at the mercy of the boss most of the times, with the stuns, sleeps, seals, purges.

      In pvp, most go with axes. I still go to aps on high hp targets assuming no one else is around.


Last updated: 3/10/2014
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Comments

  • Templar - Sanctuary
    Templar - Sanctuary Posts: 607 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Just uninstall game its easier
  • SylenThunder - Twilight Temple
    SylenThunder - Twilight Temple Posts: 7,908
    edited March 2014
    3. It's still 5%
    4. Pretty sure it doesn't matter if it's PvE or PvP, you just notice it less on PvE.
    5. See 4. I'm not 100% certain, but I don't remember it being limited to PvP. It is definitely 20% though.
    8. I agree. I know a Sage Sin that is absolutely killer.

    Might go trolling through the old patch notes for some of the details.
    Sin forum is also a good spot to look.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I think it was a 20% accuracy nerf, barely noticeable in PVE, more noticeable in PVP (most mobs/bosses are low evasion, compared to end-game characters.)
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  • hypereccentrik
    hypereccentrik Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    As for myself being a demon sin with 4.0 aps and with full r9rr I can say that in pve I don't notice these nerfs and I do full ff's half hour or less ( to and including Holleen), any other solo activities is a breeze.

    As for pvp, DPH all the way.

    I know my response doesn't answer particular questions but however, the nerf aint noticable at all. ( Come to think of it, when I used to aps in pvp I've never noticed this forced 20% nerf)
  • Evryn - Morai
    Evryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Ah. Even the devs noticed that the insane demand for int gear points to interval builds, and especially assassin interval builds, are quite the powerhouses. I was wondering if they'd simply bring the cap up from 0.2s between hits to 0.3s, looks like they did. Would probably have been simpler to switch interval gear bonuses around to diminishing returns by not lowering the interval by a fixed amount, but rather by a percentage of the base weapon interval. That way -all- weapon classes benefit from it, and the -slowest- weapons the most.

    Though that'd make pointy stick throwers quite powerful since ranged weapons are the highest interval ones...
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

    Ulsyr 103/103/104 BM. Working on the last R9 part (Axe).
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  • Salari - Raging Tide
    Salari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    If I remember correctly the 20% acc nerf was an actual a miss that will not show up in the damage log, nor in the char screen. It was just not explained properly(as almost all patch notes are never complete).
    Marine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
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  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    You do get 1 spark every 4 seconds at 5APS and 1 every 5 seconds at 4APS as is clear by the fact that 4APS is exactly enough to regain 3 sparks in its 15 second duration and 5aps gives about 1 spark excess chi.

    So that means i either never miss, or i might miss an awefull lot but you still get chi for a miss. So to test i just entered TT solo mode and killed a boss.

    I count 51 hits in the damage log.
    I gained 2 sparks + 65 chi. = 53 hits.

    So i guess misses give chi and i must have missed twice (4%)
    That doesnt mean accuracy cant be reduced by 20%, but fortunately it does mean we dont miss 20% :p


    As for the damage nerf:

    Lowest hit: 6586
    Highest hit: 7057
    sparked char screen: 24028 - 25840
    damage factor max/min: 3,66 / 3,65

    now i kill it again unsparked
    Lowest hit: 3552
    Highest hit: 3816
    unsparked char screen: 11686 - 12567
    damage factor max/min: 3,29/3,29


    The damage factor represents my attack levels vs his defence and him being lvl 150. It seems to me this should be the same sparked and unsparked. It is not. It shows an exact 10% difference.

    In other words, when i spark, the damage in my character screen slightly more than doubles (*2.05). The damage i deal to the boss increase only with a factor 1.85.

    Unless anyone can bring another explanation for the difference, it looks like the damage is indeed nerfed by 10% at 5APS.

    Might be good to know when choosing to wear full R9 for 4aps or swap a part for 5aps at the cost of 30 attack level :)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Tomstone - Harshlands
    Tomstone - Harshlands Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    well if im not mistaken on the Chinese server if a sins APS goes over 3.33 every hit misses if what I here about that is true...... I would love that brought over here.
  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited March 2014
    This thread's premise alone feels a couple of years old....

    Oh these threads probably are why.

    Further reading to help confirm stuff if you need it:

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1297641
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1296541
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1296291
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1300531
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1316471

    b:cute
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  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    9. Personally for pve, 5 aps is the way to go for me, 4 aps, not so much. When you farm tt, the extra chi acquired at 5aps, helps deal with bosses, at 4aps, you are at the mercy of the boss most of the times, with the stuns, sleeps, seals, purges.

    In pvp, most go with axes. I still go to aps on high hp targets assuming no one else is around.
  • Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver
    Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver Posts: 756 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Tomstone - Harshlands wrote: »
    well if im not mistaken on the Chinese server if a sins APS goes over 3.33 every hit misses if what I here about that is true...... I would love that brought over here.

    Doubt it. Hands down someone lied to your face and you fell for it point blank. PW wouldn't cripple BMs and Sins like that.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    OPKossy wrote: »
    This thread's premise alone feels a couple of years old....

    Oh these threads probably are why.

    Further reading to help confirm stuff if you need it:

    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1297641
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1296541
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1296291
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1300531
    http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1316471

    b:cute

    It seems like it has been changed again somewhere in those 2 years and PWI prefers to keep it silent.
    In 1 of those threads is a link to patch notes that everyone talks about. But there is nothing to be found. I assume they removed it later.

    In those threads people talk about 5% reduction at both 4 and 5 APS. my test above here clearly shows 10% at 5aps.

    It may be old, but knowin the truth is always a good thing.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Templar - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Just uninstall game its easier

    +1 b:victory
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  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    9. Personally for pve, 5 aps is the way to go for me, 4 aps, not so much. When you farm tt, the extra chi acquired at 5aps, helps deal with bosses, at 4aps, you are at the mercy of the boss most of the times, with the stuns, sleeps, seals, purges.

    In pvp, most go with axes. I still go to aps on high hp targets assuming no one else is around.

    >my face when I run any TT with 3.33 aps sparked without a single issue at all
    I guess for a BM it would be the case, sin not so much.
  • Verenor - Morai
    Verenor - Morai Posts: 699 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    When I looked at the title I was hoping it would also include the anti-aps shields bosses have in FB99/Flowsilver Palace/Undercurrent Hall etc. As in how does it nerf only aps and not every melee hit? (f.e. I can still wing strike it but can't aps it)
  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Verenor - Morai wrote: »
    When I looked at the title I was hoping it would also include the anti-aps shields bosses have in FB99/Flowsilver Palace/Undercurrent Hall etc. As in how does it nerf only aps and not every melee hit? (f.e. I can still wing strike it but can't aps it)

    Because if it would affect every single melee hit, barbs, sins and bm's would be completely useless in every single upgraded / new instance.

    It's a buff against regular aps hits, not skills.
  • Socqar - Lost City
    Socqar - Lost City Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Verenor - Morai wrote: »
    When I looked at the title I was hoping it would also include the anti-aps shields bosses have in FB99/Flowsilver Palace/Undercurrent Hall etc. As in how does it nerf only aps and not every melee hit? (f.e. I can still wing strike it but can't aps it)

    But I'm curious... I'm still hitting big numbers using auto-attack on FS bosses for example, in average time-damage I'm hitting even more with auto-attack than using skills O.o

    How is this posible? Been bugging me for long...

    Unless my damage log isn't showing the real number O.o
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Verenor - Morai wrote: »
    When I looked at the title I was hoping it would also include the anti-aps shields bosses have in FB99/Flowsilver Palace/Undercurrent Hall etc. As in how does it nerf only aps and not every melee hit? (f.e. I can still wing strike it but can't aps it)

    It nerves every standard attack. Regardless of the number per second. Therefore when you are using skills, it is important to chain them. IE start the next one during the channeling time of the last one. This way you wont do normal (mostly wasted) attacks in between.


    Comparing the damage from APS vs skills is hard with all the debuffs changing all the time. It seems roughly even for my toon, probably slightly more dmg with skills. I might be doing 20k average with skills for example (0.8 aps or so) and 3k per APS hit at 5aps. But that is with +10 fists and +6axes.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Socqar - Lost City wrote: »
    But I'm curious... I'm still hitting big numbers using auto-attack on FS bosses for example, in average time-damage I'm hitting even more with auto-attack than using skills O.o

    How is this posible? Been bugging me for long...

    Unless my damage log isn't showing the real number O.o

    Judging from your avatar, you're an archer
    Arrows don't count as melee on those bosses, your auto-attack is not affected. If you're talking about archers.
  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Socqar - Lost City wrote: »
    But I'm curious... I'm still hitting big numbers using auto-attack on FS bosses for example, in average time-damage I'm hitting even more with auto-attack than using skills O.o

    How is this posible? Been bugging me for long...

    Unless my damage log isn't showing the real number O.o

    Bow damage doesn't count, it's not melee damage.

    You still get the 50% damage nerf if you aggro by all the bosses being physical though. Why PWI why..
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  • Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Doing some test with the lvl1 fist on quinzi (20ish hits), I got:

    At 3.33, the damage is 10396-10401
    At 4.0, the damage is 9356-9363

    That's a 10% nerf already, at 4.0
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Atropah - Sanctuary
    Atropah - Sanctuary Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Tomstone - Harshlands wrote: »
    well if im not mistaken on the Chinese server if a sins APS goes over 3.33 every hit misses if what I here about that is true...... I would love that brought over here.

    Then you're mistaken :D

    PWI was the only version stupid enough to enforce aps nerfs because of the huge Q.q of our community. PW-EN lowered their max aps to 4.0 (I believe, were a few reliable discussions about it years ago) for 2 weeks about a year before we did our aps nerf and it flat out failed. People raged and told PWE to shove it. PW-EN aparently did it against the head office in china's permission and were told to change it back.

    We should've done the same thing and told PWI to shove their nerfs but too much aps hate in these forums where everyone thinks only their class can have any advantage or every class has to be equally good at everything.
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    That's a 10% nerf already, at 4.0

    =o Bad thread, but at least some good came out of it. looks like the 5% aps nerf was raised to 10% for both 4 and 5 aps and PWI never mentioned it.
    LostPoet - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    [*]Q: How much Accuracy is lost in PvE/PvP @ 4.00/5.00 APS ?
    [*]Q: For a 5.00 Demon sin with G16 interval daggers, is it more effective to drop to 4.00 with G15 legs and boots?
    [*]Q: For a 5.00 Demon sin with G16 interval daggers, is it more effective to drop to 4.00 with different ornaments?
    [*]Q: For a 4.00 Demon sin with R9 daggers to drop to 3.33 (possibly switch to sage) ?

    It's a 20% forced miss at 4 aps and 5 aps. It's not tied in with accuracy, so a 200 dex BM and a 700 dex archer apsing will both miss at least 20% above their usual rate. Every 5th attack animates but never delivers any damage. Nothing goes in the damage log but you still generate chi from the forced miss.

    3.33->4 aps is 20.1% attacks.
    4->5 aps is 25% more attacks.

    Part of the "real gain" is the chi generated. 3.33 is not perma sparked and only generates 250 chi in 15 seconds. 4 aps is 3 sparks but there is no time for skills use. 5 aps allows you to use skills and spark at will to resist boss attacks.
  • Zymari - Archosaur
    Zymari - Archosaur Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Why did they have to nerf ALL aps??? Sins were the only ones that needed nerfing! BMs/Barbs don't get the damage multiplier from added dex the way sins do. We just get a couple extra points of crit. They need to reset aps and just change the damage multiplier factor for sins. Oh ****... there I go trying to say something smart to programmers.
  • Socqar - Lost City
    Socqar - Lost City Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Judging from your avatar, you're an archer
    Arrows don't count as melee on those bosses, your auto-attack is not affected. If you're talking about archers.
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Bow damage doesn't count, it's not melee damage.

    You still get the 50% damage nerf if you aggro by all the bosses being physical though. Why PWI why..

    Aaaaaaaaaaand you just both made my day ^^ Yep, I'm archer. Anow now I'll feel way better using the stun - quick- pew pew pew - stun - quick.... combo

    Nothing makes more dmg to bosses than that, consindering Metal have too high channeling (Only worth if there's a metal-mage perhaps....) and DoT is just pure BS against anything but pets.

    50% nerf... Hope, someday, GM's will re-consider that nerf. That way EA's won't QQ even again... at least we won't be screwed there xD That or purify-zerk-purge wep, whatever they prefer b:victory
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Atropah - Sanctuary wrote: »

    It's a 20% forced miss at 4 aps and 5 aps. It's not tied in with accuracy, so a 200 dex BM and a 700 dex archer apsing will both miss at least 20% above their usual rate. Every 5th attack animates but never delivers any damage. Nothing goes in the damage log but you still generate chi from the forced miss.

    3.33->4 aps is 20.1% attacks.
    4->5 aps is 25% more attacks.

    Part of the "real gain" is the chi generated. 3.33 is not perma sparked and only generates 250 chi in 15 seconds. 4 aps is 3 sparks but there is no time for skills use. 5 aps allows you to use skills and spark at will to resist boss attacks.

    You spread misinformation. Read the information provided in this thread before you.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • hypereccentrik
    hypereccentrik Posts: 529 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    PWE should get the devs to revert the nerf. All the anti aps bosses and new skills and instances imo have done some 'rebalancing'.

    Besides I have yet to see any kind of buisness model where *****ing on a particular group of customers has proven to work well...
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    They dont have to revert it.

    It would be nice if theyd make a new farming instance without anti-aps buff on the bosses thats a bunch tougher than TT so that we have a new challenge to start with squads of mostly apsers. I miss the united spark and hfing. (i do like lord tyrant a lot as he makes us all spark together)
    It would be best if the bosses drop S boxes
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Atropah - Sanctuary
    Atropah - Sanctuary Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    You spread misinformation. Read the information provided in this thread before you.

    And then what of that was incorrect? This thread already has plenty of incorrect information so reviewing earlier post (which I'd already read) would only lead to more incorrect information. I'm just quoting what we learned 2 years ago when we were nerfed and there were a billion tests on it.
  • FlyRanger - Dreamweaver
    FlyRanger - Dreamweaver Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I just want to point out...


    Some classes have higher accuracy than others.

    Even if my accuracy is reduced by 20%, I will still have well over 9.9k accuracy.

    This won't make me miss 20% of the time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    I upload a vid of a rank 9 3rd cast seeker fight, 90 views.
    I upload a vid of me in my boxers, 750 views.
    I know what the PWI community wants.

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  • Clokey - Harshlands
    Clokey - Harshlands Posts: 202 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Here ur answer for everything...

    1-APS atm kill only mobs and noobs, R9rr Full have high def and HP so is hard to kill someone with aps if they're using r9rr full.

    2-Forget the APS and go to R9rr if u wanna kill too and use APS just for pve b:victory b:laugh

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