How to Archer in PvP

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

but do you know how many competent endgame seekers there are on HL?

This is your problem.

On here, we tend to assume competent and intelligent opponents when discussing strategies and what can and cannot work.

Against an idiot or someone who's undergeared, you can get away with a lot of **** like what you mentioned in your post. Against someone who knows what they're doing and is equal or better geared? Not gonna happen.

There is really no point for discussion if you simply assume you are fighting a seeker who is so bad that he would qpq so long after fortify that you can actually react before sealed.

if you said you would react to sac slash that would have at least been more reasonable, but it's pretty clear you don't really know much about seeker. I mean seriously? condor to block metal? lol

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

There is really no point for discussion if you simply assume you are fighting a seeker who is so bad that he would qpq so long after fortify that you can actually react before sealed.

if you said you would react to sac slash that would have at least been more reasonable, but it's pretty clear you don't really know much about seeker. I mean seriously? condor to block metal? lol

Notice i bracketed that one in "not sure if it would work". At least i think i did. Also, according to ecatomb, they can all miss. I'm aware ecatomb makes mistakes, but i really cba to waste my 4-10 hours of weekly playing time making a seeker to find out.

As i already pointed out, if we don't assume the seeker makes mistakes, this argument is pointless. Archer vs Seeker is pointless unless the Seeker makes mistakes, otherwise all you do is wait for the seeker to zerk crit. Getting back to the original point, this STILL does not make HoS a skill worth having. Either it's possible to avoid a situation where you'd have to use it, or you're looking at a fight where your genie is permanently disabled, in which case you're about as screwed as you would be if you didn't have it.

Edit: Took a moment to look through ecatomb seeker skills. First glance, looks like very little you wouldn't see coming. If the combo you're talking about is Blade Affinity > Sacrificial Slash+ Fort > Quid Pro Quo > Ion Spike, then i'm pretty sure you can block that if you're not autopotting mdef charms. (Last time i 1 v 1'd a seeker they couldn't hit me for 3x my full hp, so i'm assuming that's still the case.)

OPKossy wrote: »

There is a vast gap between playing perfectly and playing like an idiot. You do not have to do every action perfectly to still be competent in PvP. As much as you are making these assumptions about an opponent playing like an idiot while your responses are perfect, you are just as likely to mistime, misclick, push the wrong button, have a slightly higher ping, lag, or generally **** up/get screwed as your opponent is. This does not mean you or the opponent is unskilled but fact of the matter is **** happens because we're human.

This is also why theorycrafting falls flat around here (TT99+5 anyone?). If you want to have an actual debate, use competence on both sides. You cannot, however, assume all the situations will line up perfectly for you and not the opponent or vice-versa. Additionally, assuming things will be perfect on both sides is not only a massive contradiction, but also pants on head **** even if it wasn't.

Fact of the matter is that, against a competent cleric and seeker (and archers for other classes) heart of steel is a very useful skill to have. Same with soul of fire for wizards and oxygen bubble for psys. While the one you'll find most useful depends on your server. Trying to say they aren't useful, however, is... to be frank... completely stupid.

I did not claim they're not useful, i claimed they're not in the top 8 most useful skills for a trollcher (or an actual srsface archer, for that matter) and since i can only have 8 skills on my genie, i'm goin gto roll with the top 8.

You're not adressing the point. Against a competent Seeker, you're screwed anyway.

However, if you do see a seeker going with Blade Affinity, i don't know why you'd want to stick around, so you can walk out of range at that point. Supposing they got you with immobilize, at least i'd hope you've stayed far enough to be able to jump out of ion spike range (wasting Sac Strike and Fort time here if you time it right. Then you can try to either block QPQ with WoG or you can block the seal with will surge. Either will work, and you can then either shell (to block Ion Spike) WoG (to block Ion Spike) or block Ion Spike with a charm, like i initially suggested (and iirc, you don't need to avoid the seal for this). You can in some cases stun the seeker, which is nice if it works, but it's nicer still to block the ion spike because they actually lose chi then.

Neither of you has responded to tell me wether or not metal attacks can miss, which i find mildly impolite, given Moooooooo's vague argument from authority on the subject.

Best move, usually: gank the **** out of that seeker, you're an archer.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think the moral of the story and lesson for Sint; this is the Archer forums, please keep the 'lulz pve server' remarks to the HL subforums where you and your HL pals can guffaw freely.

Here facts are sacred and opinions/strategies are up for debate, ignoring server specific variables.

For example I could very well assert that SoF is pointless, because on DW, there is a severe shortage of Wizards that can cause me pain; roll around without SoF on say LC though, and you would likely get rekt.

My HL pals? Have you ever looked at the HL forums?

Am i being told how archer forums work by someone who joined in June 2013? Okay.

I played an archer w/o SoF on -removed-, back when there wasn't a single wizzie not going spark > sutra > faceroll. I can tank a spark/sutra combo from a wizzie with less chi than they waste casting it, and i don't need my genie to do it (doesn't always turn out well though :C i need practice). And by the way, protip: stay the **** out of spark range.

OPKossy wrote: »

Fun fact: Seekers don't need blade affinity to pull off the sac slash qpq combo with the new expansion.


As for the whole missing thing... are you really falling on that as an argument? Come on, man. A 700 dex archer can miss against a 5 dex arcane. Does that mean we should disregard the archer because the chance is there? That's like saying an arcane shouldn't try to defend themselves from a combo being setup because any hits in the combo can proc purify. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it's a smart idea to not have a defense ready anyway.

Best move is be to get that veno harem to spam myraids so the TT99 +5 sage archer can beat the charm of the R9 seeker.

The missing comment was for Mooooooooo going "lol condor to avoid metal, you know nothing"

I wouldn't be willing to gamble on Ion missing normally, but if i happen to cast condor on time, then yes, i'll happily gamble on it missing, and if it doesn't, i'll have more to QQ about.

Here's the pertinent quote:

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

it's pretty clear you don't really know much about seeker. I mean seriously? condor to block metal? lol

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Theorycraft much. So vs seeker the best strategy is to read their mind. Excellent idea indeed!

1st off no seeker will attempt this or any other combo (yes there are variations btw) while you have full HP so lets assume the seeker isn't a complete idiot and does this when you're at 55-60% HP

i) Channel cancel QPQ and then Voidstep as you start channeling WoG (instant vs 1sec channel) and now QPQ while you're stunned

Stunned so no hitting def charm, no hitting apo, only got genie.. did you will surge? so there goes AD hmm wait Ion + 1 metal skill one or the other zc? GG

Or HoS you live! They wasted their big hard hitting combo, all it cost you was a genie skill that consumes 80? energy and has a 30 sec CD same as their combo.

That's just one example.

Let me guess your answer, fortify? :x

But you don't have any seekers capable of that on your server so npnp. Realise this is a server difference and not a strategic one.

You did read my next post, where i point out that i personally, and most PKers i know, prefer not changing genies so we don't get caught with our pants down? If you didn't, please do. In it, i think i explain quite clearly how, if you know what you're going to be fighting and conveniently equip the right genie, HoS makes a lot more sense than if you don't. So yes. Given that i don't think anyone on a pvp server goes "OMFG THAT'S A SEEKER. MUST SWITCH GENIE." Whereas on a PvE server, i can perfectly imagine people doing that. As a matter of fact, boogiepanda made a guide on doing precisely that.

You're supposing this is the kind of seeker that will cancel QPQ when i Will Surge but will Ion Spike even if i HoS? Seems strange. Also, idk about you, but my genie can still ToP after that. And also, why is it you're telling me i would Will Surge AND WoG when i suggested both as ways to accomplish the exact same thing? Also, how many seekers do you know who can cancel QPQ while they have BA on?

On reading their minds: Yes, it works great against sins as well. This is why i said it's pointless to fight a seeker 1 v 1 on an archer. Unless you can read their minds / see zerk coming / both, you're going to have a rough time, and you're going to lose.

If i'm at 55-60% HP, they'd have to get lucky with getting neither a zerk nor a crit on QPQ, as they might tick me, and if they do, they'd **** up their own combo. Also, this condition makes ToP quite viable.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dont know how this debate got to you personally I mean frankly I couldnt give a monkey what you have on your genie, no offence intended.

Then please stop whining as if you do.

As for "the bm who started this" i replied to Bhavvy, who claimed "everyone who is likely to get hit with metal has HoS on their genie" which is not only untrue, it's moronic as well.

As for you asking about BMs, seekers and assasins:

1)You can read the thread title, i assume?

2)I still think those people might want other skills. If i played a BM, i personally wouldn't use HoS, because, again, it's a situational skill, and there are other skills whch are more useful in more situations. It IS slightly more useful, though, because a bm is also more likely to have a STR genie, which, iirc, lowers the cost. There's plenty you can do with a BM's genie that doesn't involve preparing for rare contingencies.

Sins... I think we all know how sins build their genies and why. Also, i'm pretty sure they have a 66% chance to avoid ailments, so how exactly would seekers go about using that combo? (i don't think i need to make a case for sins not being too worried about archers and clerics killing them.)

Seekers should see that combo coming better than anyone. Also, they're pretty tanky anyway.

Like i pointed out earlier, i didn't say the skill is absolutely useless, i just said it's not useful enough for me to want it on my genie. And since i obviously have a preference for my genie setup...

How often do you have to fight Seekers to make that skill worth having?

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Again, Sint trying to look smart and some how makes "oh you know you're on a pve server if you have hos on your genie" into "I said that cause there are more useful skills, I don't have space for it, seekers on my server suck!"
GG. No one cares about how well you write your pro fighting skillz.

You obviously do not know how to read, and i daresay you wouldn't waste time replying if you didn't care.

Notice how those statements do not contradict? And i'm sorry, but since my counter to a seeker's combo does not require me to have better reflexes than the seeker attacking me, i do not think you have a point.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

HoS is useful, you've said so yourself, and yes, pve servers makes sense to have pve and pvp genies.

You notice i said so myself? Good job. You agree with me on the basic issue too? Even better. So now you agree with me on just about every word i've said, but you're whining because you enjoy it. Wonderful.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

it works out to be situational yes, but better than most other skills.

Of course it's better than other skills. I'd choose it over remove paralysis any day. I'd take it over spark on my archer's genie. I'd take it over eruption fist. I'd take it over most of the skills i could get on a genie. I just wouldn't take it over the ones i have, and i think it's quite understandable for me to think my genie setup is fairly close to ideal, because otherwise i'd play another genie setup.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Name a skill that costs 80 or less energy that can save you from being ganked by multiple metal DDs?

This is a moronic argument. It would be a moronic argument even if those metal DDs couldn't kill me without needing metal dmg to do so. If you get ganked by a seeker, an archer and a cleric with the same gear as you, casting HoS would be the worst possible move.

Here's a similarly stupid one: You must get NP on your genie, in case you get ganked by a veno harem. There are veno harems on every server, so you should be prepared.

There's also a semantic issue: no genie skill can save you from being ganked, it can only save you when you are already being ganked.

PooEA - Lost City wrote: »

Now now Sint, as we all know by now from your forum posts you are the one and only archer that never misplays in any way, you have perfect timing, prediction and reasoning in every occasion.

In order to dispel our disbelief why don't you just share a video of your own gameplay and simply watch as we all applaud to your godsent abilities?

I mean, surely to lend weight to your words in the world of PWI, evidence of your own superior gameplay would be the most natural, yet strongest of all arguements, no?

And while you're at it, record a video of you dodging any seeker metal skill with blessing of the condor for us, just one will be enough.

Obvious alt troll is obvious.

This is not a matter of my skill, nor does my skill change anything. If anything, my argument for not having that skill on my genie is that i can make up for my shortcomings better without it.

His argument for having HoS is, basically, that people who can kill him with physical damage will be unable to kill him with metal if he uses it, and that that's a good reason to waste a genie spot on it. This is, in my perhaps not humble opinion, not the case.

Also, i confessed myself ignorant on wether metal skills can miss. That's why i asked if that was the case a few posts back.

Also, for the millionth time, if any of you can quote me saying anything that resembles me claiming to be:

PooEA - Lost City wrote: »

the one and only archer that never misplays in any way, you have perfect timing, prediction and reasoning in every occasion.

I will thank you from the bottom of my transplanted pig's heart.

If you cannot, kindly desist in your attempts to build a straw man out of it. I'm perfectly willing to discuss the skill on its merits, and while Bhavvy made a brave attempt to do the same (within the limits of his disappointing intellect) once he got done with a little ad hominem and misquoting, he seems to be getting lonelier in that group.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Your hypocrisy is appalling, truly.

It might seem so, but an ad hominem would require me to base my refutation of his argument on the fact that he is stupid, which i did not do. Notice i assert his stupidity, taking as evidence (though i only implied that) his example for HoS usefulness.

Also, this thread should probably get back on topic sometime soon.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, please keep going, this reminds of the days Fleuri and Kiyoshi still roamed these forums, so much nostalgia f:thanks

Exactly what I've been thinking. Which is why I've gone from an active participant to /popcorn

The choice of immunities depends a lot on the class make up of your server and who you tend to fight.

Heart of Steel - Seeker, Cleric
Soul of Fire - Wizard
Oxygen Bubble, Will Surge - Psychic
Nullify Poison - Veno, Mystic
Expel - Sin, BM, Barb, Archer

Most of the time you want to pick like 2-3 of them.

Does archer's damage affected by distance to target like the further the distance the higher the damage, or it's only 2 kinds, half damage if in penalty range and full damage outside penalty range ?

im full NV3+10 18k HP Buff

Having Problem to PVP Sin with full r9 +7b:laugh

r9 with weapon and aps gear is not a big issue i can scape sometimes and do a kill but seems full r9 is pain in the @ss.. i dont last even 3 sec with they lock me..

sarofang wrote: »

Should i lvl boa for end-game the stickied guides say no, but they are a little old.

Yes.

/5char