Pure PVE Wizard sage vs demon in today's PWI...which is more beneficial?

Naishuitama - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Which way should I take my wizard? I always take the "Look at both skills and decide from there" method, but this time....both sides are honestly extremely attractive on skill effects, so I can't decide. I can foresee demon being for a "gather mobs and DB to death while using demon barrier" type of thing if your duo'ing with someone or specific dungeons that have lots of aggro to you and there is no seeker(and mobs happen to be anti-stun), while sage seems to be more of a PVE-squad oriented style of battle with the sage DB having a stun, masteries having 5% higher damage.

Now I'm focusing this ALL on DB solely...but just in general.

Eoria - Harshlands · January 2014

There's no point to making a wizard solely for PVE.

Naishuitama - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

There's no point to making a wizard solely for PVE.

I enjoy the PVE content enough, and wizard is 1 of the few classes I have yet to make.

Fei_Lung - Sanctuary · January 2014

While there have been a few new additions to skills since many of the guides have been made, the benefits of each of the paths hasn't changed. It has long been noted that for PVE/TW, sage tends to have an edge, while demon tends to favor open world and 1v1 PvP.
However this is not set in stone. It largely depends on the individual playing style. one favors chi generation/retention, the other favors control and faster casting speed.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Fei_Lung - Sanctuary wrote: »

While there have been a few new additions to skills since many of the guides have been made, the benefits of each of the paths hasn't changed. It has long been noted that for PVE/TW, sage tends to have an edge, while demon tends to favor open world and 1v1 PvP.
However this is not set in stone. It largely depends on the individual playing style. one favors chi generation/retention, the other favors control and faster casting speed.

i dont completely agree...
sage arent the chi machines anymore, glacial embrace gives my demon wizard chi like crazy, also demon dont have the upper hand on crit since passives...

I think the only advantages that still make a difference are demon better channeling and control skills, and sage better ultis.

Both sage and demon are OP and balanced on skills, i think is just a matter of playstyles.

And whoever says wiz arent usefull on pve is mistaken, go delta, fsp, or anything and people always wants wizards.... we arent an unwanted class, maybe not a priority

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And whoever says wiz arent usefull on pve is mistaken, go delta, fsp, or anything and people always wants wizards.... we arent an unwanted class, maybe not a priority

^

Want to do FSP in >12mins<? Make a few r9rr wizzy friends.

Drag old pal, we should hang out some time (fsp nao) b:laugh

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · January 2014

i think we could beat the 12min time Dark, just need teamwork and the right classes....

Boomz - Harshlands · January 2014

I say this everyday and will continue to say it, demon wizards are fail wizards. The overall gameplay and skill changes gained from sage will greatly outweigh those of demon. Also, with the new update, there is an even greater reason to be sage since we just got a new stun practically for free. And the only beneficial thing about demon wiz, which is crit rate, is obsolete with the new update because i will be running around as a sage wizard, doing 5% more base damage, and having 40% crit rate or higher with fire shield on.

Adroit - Lost City · January 2014

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

I say this everyday and will continue to say it, demon wizards are fail wizards. The overall gameplay and skill changes gained from sage will greatly outweigh those of demon. Also, with the new update, there is an even greater reason to be sage since we just got a new stun practically for free. And the only beneficial thing about demon wiz, which is crit rate, is obsolete with the new update because i will be running around as a sage wizard, doing 5% more base damage, and having 40% crit rate or higher with fire shield on.

I disagree, demon and sage are both very effective and this update seems to have brought them closer together (demon gets more chi, sage gets more CC). If you cannot find anything other than crit rate as being a perk of demon.. you are blind.

Although it seems absolutely **** to have a pve wizard, I'd suggest demon because demon is better suited to a channel build (which you'd likely use in pve).

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i think we could beat the 12min time Dark, just need teamwork and the right classes....

I have some ideas. Let's combine forces and show PWI what DW is capable of b:victory

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

I say this everyday and will continue to say it, demon wizards are fail wizards. The overall gameplay and skill changes gained from sage will greatly outweigh those of demon. Also, with the new update, there is an even greater reason to be sage since we just got a new stun practically for free. And the only beneficial thing about demon wiz, which is crit rate, is obsolete with the new update because i will be running around as a sage wizard, doing 5% more base damage, and having 40% crit rate or higher with fire shield on.

Maybe you dont know good demon wizards, but about sage, bids is obsolete with your thinking on new crit rate, crappy channel, lower p.def... (troll)

Demon wizards are way better at CC skills than sage, chi is an issue only if u want to throw ultis all day long, which wont happen in 1 vs 1 and glacial embrace takes care of that now....
Demon better for pvp...

Atropah - Sanctuary · January 2014

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

There's no point to making a wizard solely for PVE.

I hate this attitude. Some people play this game for, you know, the actual game and who cares about pvp.

Although there are few places a wizard really shines in pve they're never bad to have around and if all you care about is PvE then you shouldn't have to limit yourself to barb, cleric, sin, or HF **** just "have a point in pve." There are 10 classes to enjoy and all offer something different.

Btw, I went sage wiz. The "huge sell" of demon had always been demon stone barrier, but with things like the new Primal defense skill and other stat bonuses (avatars, nuemas, titles, etc) the 30% pdef difference doesn't make as huge an impact as it used to. The rest was all pretty balanced but sage had some better combos that didn't overwrite Undine elemental debuffs, as well as generally better dph, which I prioritized over demon's higher crit rate.

Adroit - Lost City · January 2014

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe you dont know good demon wizards, but about sage, bids is obsolete with your thinking on new crit rate, crappy channel, lower p.def... (troll)

Demon wizards are way better at CC skills than sage, chi is an issue only if u want to throw ultis all day long, which wont happen in 1 vs 1 and glacial embrace takes care of that now....
Demon better for pvp...

Also disagree with this. Demon cc is slightly better than sage, chi is useful for more than just ultis, glacial embrace is a tradeoff (sage can sit in pyro/stone barriers for extra crit/pdef more than demon can while maintaining the same chi).. and I strongly disagree with your assertion that demon is better than sage in pvp.

einzberg · February 2014

i think ppl who say demon is better dont know anything about wizards and just go for demon for customb:shocked maybe wizard demon have a little bit more of control thats true but with the new skills, the wizzy sage have more ^control^ that before, and at least demon wizards lost some of his ^control skills^like pintfall and emberstorm, i think both are balanced in pvp b:victory i like sage more for my type of gameplay i respect demon wizards, but some bit only go demon for customb:surrender b:shutup

Mooooooooo - Lost City · February 2014

well I think demon is better still. 10% more pdef survivability. And I think the cc is more than just slightly better, although mainly in 1v1s. now that stone rain can actually be spammed, it is really gud. Also playing a demon wiz vs sage before I don't seem to be lacking that much chi.

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide · February 2014

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

well I think demon is better still. 10% more pdef survivability. And I think the cc is more than just slightly better, although mainly in 1v1s. now that stone rain can actually be spammed, it is really gud. Also playing a demon wiz vs sage before I don't seem to be lacking that much chi.

I must agree. The new water barrier is awesome! I like the extra distance of our jump, our Hailstorm that binds more often, the fact that i rarely to never use BIDs coz I see it as a weak version of BT and that I can MS in TW from 35 to pick up archers with ...

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · February 2014

einzberg wrote: »

i think ppl who say demon is better dont know anything about wizards and just go for demon for customb:shocked maybe wizard demon have a little bit more of control thats true but with the new skills, the wizzy sage have more ^control^ that before, and at least demon wizards lost some of his ^control skills^like pintfall and emberstorm, i think both are balanced in pvp b:victory i like sage more for my type of gameplay i respect demon wizards, but some bit only go demon for customb:surrender b:shutup

i chose demon almost 4 years ago by now for the reasons i thought and still think i liked over sage, new skills are 2 months old, so saying going demon for better p.def crit, channel and control is wrong, means you dont know the game existed before primal skills.

Im not saying sage is bad or demon is better, just demon suits my playstyle better, i have people telling me im tankish than better geared wizards, and most of them are sage, maybe i use the benefits of demon in a good way:
-distance shrink, is the best kitting skill in game, even better when demon since u go off anyone but archer range
-stone rain chance to stun, only 20% but better than nothing
-stone barrier, no need to explain demon is better
-emberstorm before primal too, that stun was OP as hell even if short timed
-hailstorm and pitfall more chance to proc inmobilize
-force of will 2 sec less cooldown XD
-quaff gives channel, sage is cool too, but on channel gear glacial embrace and quaff im speed racer casting non stop XD
-Mountain zeise 35mtr cast is great to trap archers
- and ofc, stronger frostbladeb:cool

those are some of the reasons i prefer demon.... again NOT SAYING SAGE IS BAD!

Fei_Lung - Sanctuary · February 2014

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

so saying going demon for better p.def crit, channel and control is wrong, means you dont know the game existed before primal skills.

No, that's exactly what demon has had over sage. It means that's the way the game's been since the beginning.

In that same token, sages have always have had higher elemental resists, 5% increased damage across the board, increased Chi generation/retention, and BIDS. and lets face it, dragon envy is a thing.

While the new primal skills will change wizard game play as a whole, they do not change the already established advantages of each path. The only skill that give any sort of challenge to this idea is frozen flame, because demon wizards who want or obtain this skill will sacrifice that AOE stun. However, as with any skill, its completely optional to learn it, people seem to forget this.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · February 2014

Fei_Lung - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, that's exactly what demon has had over sage. It means that's the way the game's been since the beginning.

In that same token, sages have always have had higher elemental resists, 5% increased damage across the board, increased Chi generation/retention, and BIDS. and lets face it, dragon envy is a thing.

Then is correct to say that now chi for sage is not an advantage due to glacial embrace, passives increase are obsolete with nowadays gears, and elemental resistance difference unexsistant due to rebirth???? and when wizards can now get 30+% crit.. bids is not that good anymore... or u can use new fire barrier and have that crit anyway....

See! i can point that going sage is useless too lol

dont understimate the path u didnt choose... both are good... and differences still exist....

Fei_Lung - Sanctuary · February 2014

That's where you're wrong. Since both Sage and Demon get the chi benefit, it does not reflect a change in the advantages of the class. i.e. sage still gets just as much more chi than demon.

A lot of your logic here isn't quite right. While there are diminishing returns with higher stats, it doesn't make them meaningless. It just means they're weighted differently in favor of other stats. If you want to pull this card, then do some forum searching, there are damage tests somewhere in here that proves Demon Stone Barrier is only be a minor advantage when compared to Sage. Now, I will admit some of this can have changed, as they have re-adjusted some of the caps in the recent updates.

As far as crit, Sage gets the same benefit from fire barrier as demon does. So this point is still moot. The crit advantage of demon comes from masteries, while sage gets the flat 5% damage increase. The relevance to BIDS is this: while 15-45 is a very large jump, 30-60 is still a significant difference. Ask any sin who has Power Dash, or any class with a large crit boosting skill.

I'm not arguing against going Demon. I've been around long enough to know that as far as wizards go, Demons and Sages are pretty balanced. More so than most of the other classes in the game. What I am doing is offering a counterpoint to your original statement.

Naishuitama - Dreamweaver · February 2014

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then is correct to say that now chi for sage is not an advantage due to glacial embrace, passives increase are obsolete with nowadays gears, and elemental resistance difference unexsistant due to rebirth???? and when wizards can now get 30+% crit.. bids is not that good anymore... or u can use new fire barrier and have that crit anyway....

See! i can point that going sage is useless too lol

dont understimate the path u didnt choose... both are good... and differences still exist....

So would it be fair to say, new sacred skill codex skills maxed out+demon masteries+demon versions of almost every hard hitting skill+new pyroshell=1 shot nuking type wiz?

Pure PVE Wizard sage vs demon in today's PWI...which is more beneficial?

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