Request for a new buff

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

Barbs have one since they typically have around 60 dexterity, but I think it's time BMs were given an accuracy buff.

Archers and Sins are getting more evasion due to the rebirth system, and yes BMs are getting more strength, but what is strength on a BM? We lack in damage as it is, so yes it's a really nice boost, and now with the avatar system we can actually deal some damage, but there still is that major problem.

I know we have 100% accuracy skills like smack, blade hurl, mage bane (that nobody uses and will be merged to make Dragon Rising), and Flame Tsunami, but they have considerable cooldowns. Yes, very fast, but a BM is known for the fast cooldowns, so in comparison they are pretty long.

But our skills like fissure, HF, Aeolian Blade, Drake Bash and soon Dragon Rising are all based off accuracy and enemy evasion, among other skills as well.

With rebirth, sins and archers that don''t buff their evasion against a BM that has around 160 dexterity will evade 2/5 or 3/5 of a BMs skills, and pretty much every barb skill other than their 100% accurate skills, too.

I think we need to give a class a team accuracy buff. Something that will increase their entire squads accuracy. This will hardly effect sins and archers accuracy since they can achieve tens of thousands of accuracy points with rings.

The seeker already has one if they are demon, but of course a seeker has metal skills that already cannot miss, though if I am wrong might someone correct me? I've never played as a seeker.

Barbs that are meant to pull a cata or carry flags in NW don't wear bloodbath either, so they would also benefit from it.

I don't care which class gets the accuracy buff, I don't mind if it's a self cast only much like the seekers, but I do think we need one. I think the assassin or archer should be able to grant this buff to their team, as they are both the dexterity classes, and it would also make them more demanded for groups.

Now, I know there is the accuracy buff from the base, but you cannot leave NW to go get that after you die, and you can't expect someone to leave TW every time they die for their accuracy buff as well.

Another idea is to change the BM Antistun from raising evasion to raising accuracy instead, as we don't really get anything good from evasion.

What do you others reading this think?

-Thank you for your time

Quilue - Sanctuary · January 2014

I'd rather they remove Evasion entirely and give archers something modern like Tidal Protection.

Veneir - Dreamweaver · January 2014

To make the bm and barb skill misses worse, literally all fox forme attacks for venos were made 'never misses' in this most recent update ':3....

--anyway euh.... evasion is always kind of a lame mechanic, yeah.

Not really for an accuracy buff as in long lasting buff but

Another idea is to change the BM Antistun from raising evasion to raising accuracy instead, as we don't really get anything good from evasion.

that makes sense to me. Why even would it give evasion...... yeesh

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

Veneir - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not really for an accuracy buff as in long lasting buff but

that makes sense to me. Why even would it give evasion...... yeesh

Yeah, long lasting one could be seen as kinda OP. The evasion from Will used to be great before, Especially since it's a 100% boost, it made a BM able to keep up with a sin or archer that didn't wear accuracy rings, IE sin silence would miss and such, but as time went on, everyone and their mother began to wear accuracy rings. BM is not a top-dex class, 200 being the complete cap, which is 4.5k or so evasion buffed, which in modern era PWI is only annoying to vit barbs who deal really bad damage to HA anyway.

After thinking about it, changing the antistun from evasion to accuracy seems the best route.

TZoner - Raging Tide · January 2014

I COMPLETELY agree this is needed....and concur that changing Will of the Bodhisattva to give Accuracy instead of evasion is a good idea...but i dont think that is enough....I think they need to just give a new buff to bms....or another class...increasing accuracy. Evasion is annoying....in pvp i see alot of my skill missing even with +50% accuracy on both my rings....and being a pure strength bm this is a huge issue...i dont feel i should have to change my build just to guarantee hits.

Bms have been in long need of some sort of advancement as a class. While the combo skills are nice i can already see myself as having gaps in my combos now with them. Gaps ill have to fill with other skills that will likely miss. I shouldnt have to have my build for my bm suffer and be forced to put more dex for more accuracy that wont help in the long run anyways....as saethos said we are already under damaged as is. While some people may say WOW you hit hard....i know i dont....i hear of sins hitting INSANE crits with my hfs that i KNOW i cant get. Then i watch the AA classes do crazy high damage and im like yea...i dont hit that hard. So this needs to be done if anything to balance us out and give us a slight edge.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · January 2014

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd rather they remove Evasion entirely and give archers something modern like Tidal Protection.

Evasion is completely unreliable and there is such little difference at high levels. JUst pop on two +50% accuracy rings and you should be fine. BMs also have gotten a great overpowered weapon in smack since its upgrade, which got quadrupled in power (not sure) and made to hit 100% of the time. Archers are squishiest class in game in terms of defense since we have absolutely no ways to increase it. Blessing of the condor raising my accuracy to slightly shy of 40k for 6 seconds still barely increases the amount of misses on me. Id cry about something more meaningful next time.

Request new buff?
Request denied.

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear · January 2014

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd rather they remove Evasion entirely and give archers something modern like Tidal Protection.

No. Archers are one of the strongest classes. Just no.

opkossy · January 2014

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No. Archers are one of the strongest classes. Just no.

Context for that claim? I'm hoping you play an archer as much as you do that assassin so you have reasonable experience as well since saying that from an assassin without that kind of experience is kinda laughable. And if you aren't willing to provide context or don't have valid experience on both sides of the fence, pass me some of whatever you're on.

I'm on the fence on this. Evasion has been pretty much useless on PWI since... back when people hit level 77 and equipped misty forest rings for the first time in 08. Then that became even more true with the abundance of physical skills we have nowadays that always hit since at least before it was a slight gamble against phys classes (casters never missing diminished any attempts at evasion based builds to begin with). Now evasion is finally becoming a bit more relevant... but not because of any mechanics change to make it useful. No, it's instead because the two dex classes can now get about 3-4 times as much dex as any other class would get. The irony of this is that, as many of you probably know, BMs and seekers get more evasion AND accuracy per point of dex than archers and assassins do. So if one were feeling crazy enough, they could potentially outdo the dex based classes at their own game.

Anyways, I've rambled a bit. Essentially, I'd prefer to see how this plays out first. While missing an assassin can be rather devastating (though this is more because of tidal/focused mind and deaden nerves being there)... I was always expecting to miss dex based classes because evasion was supposed to be their defensive mechanism. It feels a bit odd to condemn archers with this request just because assassins get a vastly superior type of evasion. However if I miss too much to be able to fairly fight both classes even with reasonable adjustments and compromises (IE: Using accuracy gems since they'd be USEFUL again instead of being gung-ho on attack without needing to care about accuracy at all), then it'd make sense to ask for it.

Geckofreak - Sanctuary · January 2014

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No. Archers are one of the strongest classes. Just no.

Honestly, I can never get enough of Assassins who claim to be squishier then archers, saying archers are more overpowered. a mentally unwell chimpanzee can stun lock perfectly with an assassin, with 2 stuns, a sleep, a seal, and a paralyze, and the ability to stealth and run away on messing up. All the assassin debuffs except for sleep (which does at lv 11) act 100% of the time. Also assassin's paralyze and stuns last for far longer then that of archers. Leap stun also ignores accuracy checks.
Archers have a single stun, and a single paralyze which is made useless because all melee classes except barbs (who can invoke to tank it out) have a stun leap now. Neither have 100% debuff rate. They can both miss easily or fail.
Archers have no built in healing skill of any kind, excluding sparking, but also have a perpetual lack of chi due to antistuns, thundershock, barrage and shell constantly eating up chi. The only way to get it back is awaken, which is actually useful since cooldown was reduced, but still assassins have the ability to constantly have full chi.
The only things archers can do to increase suitability is a 15 second 20% damage reduction with wings of grace, our antistun, an evasion buff which is useless because of prevalance of accuracy rings, and ofc does nothing against magic, a 6 second evasion buff which maybe ignores 50% of hits if you get lucky, and is yet again useless againt magic, and overrides our other buff which will bite you in the *** in a long battle, and winged shell, which absorbs 80% of damage taken, but disappears after absorbing 800 damage, which means its gone after one hit, being a spectacular waste of 50 chi. Also all but 4 archer skills deal half damage within melee range, along with auto attacks, making our superior range also be a crutch to be kicked out from underneath us.
In comparison, assassins get deaden nerves, which gives you a second life nearly with healing upon death, the ability to have a high chance ignore attacks for 1% damage, or debuffs, constant healing while attacking, and the ability to appear and disappear at will. The only possible reason that any assassin would think their class isnt overpowered is when one has never needed to actually learn their class or improve refine any gear other then weapon, and then is clueless when they enter pvp scene against those who actually have geared up and learned. But even still, assassins will wipe the flood with any evenly undergeared toon of another class, except maybe seekers barbs and bms who can outlast them.
Assassins with r9-99-999 get high critical hit rate with their dex combining with sacrificial strike to deal 4x damage hits obnoxiously frequently, while archers cant even purge proc with half of our skills.

Please do not constitute your ignorance of your own and other classes and lack of hard work to attribute to others being overpowered.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

This thread again.

Why evasion is important to archers;

We have the worst defences in the game

1. Casters can triple pdef ornament, and have huge mdef due to pure mag, purify proc
2. Assassins have tidal
3. Seekers get the very nice def lvl bonus/last stand
4. Barbs - really?
5. BM's bell + marrows, control skills to disable

All we get is antistuns and evasion we get paper mache LA armour, weak to either type of attack as our primary stat (dex) gives us no defensive bonus on top of offensive bonus (mag/str gives mdef/pdef) so we need to balance pdef and mdef so don't get particularly strong in either. Dex gives us evasion. Nerf this and we have no defence.

Evasion is particularly useful vs the classes that are likely to get in your face and lock you down - the worst thing to face as an archer, i.e. BMs, barbs, and assassins. (now barbs are stupidly annoying thanks to the new skill)

Bm's already have numerous 100% accurate skills, demon roar, smack (cd on both is pretty good, no idea why there are complaints here) and other skills OP mentioned.

In such situations where we are getting locked down, all we have to rely on is blessing of the condor in between your 100% accuracy locks, to be able to kite away before we get drake bashed, the antistun and damage reduction is great sure, but at the cost of a spark, you can continue to hound us, with very short cd on leaps to close the gap, demon bell with magic marrow at melee range constantly..really.

Condor can also be a life saver when another archer purges and procs on demon qs. I've seen 3-4 misses in a row.

What I find most infuriating however are BMs that complain about missing or not being able to kill people in group pk. BMs are a support class, the best support class there is for assisting DDs with kills.. Honestly if I was a BM I would put all the reawakened stat points into dex, thats nearly 8% crit and hella evasion and accuracy esp for BMs, do all the title quests that give you accuracy, equip war avatar cards that give you accuracy, pretty sure meridian gives you it too. Run around with a squad and wreak pure havoc as I've seen many well played BMs do.

FYI I have stupidly high accuracy and I still miss aim low on barbs, awesome waste of a spark. GG.

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Geckofreak - Sanctuary wrote: »

*snip for the length + lack of paragraphs/breaks!*

ASININE insults aside.

Its so getting old hearing/reading about people making stuns out to be far more useful than they actually are... yes in 1 on 1 they are useful, hell they are even quite useful for sins and their ability to stealth/force stealth.

The simple matter of fact is that... not everyone is in epic gear and able to take an absurd amount of hits, the ability to attack at a distance and hit FAR harder compensates to quite an extent the lack of defenses Archers/Casters get... though sadly at end game casters/archers can get quite insane phys/mag def and still hit freakishly hard + still have distance on their side, sure melee can do a lot of the same, but they wont hit freakishly hard until they are r93r +12, though melees will never be on the same level of actually doing freakishly awesome damage at a consistent rate from a distance. Seekers are oped beasts, but they do have a few weaknesses (1. They don't have constantly obscenely high hits. 2. They can be easy to lock down.)

Also @ every class having a 'tele stun' please... bm's tele "stun" is a tele IMMOBLIZE/you CAN still attack during the duration of it.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ASININE insults aside.

Its so getting old hearing/reading about people making stuns out to be far more useful than they actually are... yes in 1 on 1 they are useful, hell they are even quite useful for sins and their ability to stealth/force stealth.

The simple matter of fact is that... not everyone is in epic gear and able to take an absurd amount of hits, the ability to attack at a distance and hit FAR harder compensates to quite an extent the lack of defenses Archers/Casters get... though sadly at end game casters/archers can get quite insane phys/mag def and still hit freakishly hard + still have distance on their side, sure melee can do a lot of the same, but they wont hit freakishly hard until they are r93r +12, though melees will never be on the same level of actually doing freakishly awesome damage at a consistent rate from a distance. Seekers are oped beasts, but they do have a few weaknesses (1. They don't have constantly obscenely high hits. #. They can be easy to be locked down.)

Also @ every class having a 'tele stun' please... bm's tele "stun" is a tele IMMOBLIZE/you CAN still attack during the duration of it.

So let me get this straight, what you're saying is that because archers/casters that are r9rr+12 hit bm's that aren't r9rr+12 freakishly hard, we should change the game and give (undergeared) bm's a boost to combat this???

You're on my server. Do you know who slewdem is, that is endgame gear, I hit him for peanuts, and he does his job, doesnt go for kills, plays his class, while ranged DDs can get away with highly refined wep and hide in range, melee classes cannot, they need to be tanky enough to get in the thick of things.

Unless you are comparing like for like gear, there is no discussion.

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

OPKossy wrote: »

I'm on the fence on this. Evasion has been pretty much useless on PWI since... back when people hit level 77 and equipped misty forest rings for the first time in 08. Then that became even more true with the abundance of physical skills we have nowadays that always hit since at least before it was a slight gamble against phys classes (casters never missing diminished any attempts at evasion based builds to begin with). Now evasion is finally becoming a bit more relevant... but not because of any mechanics change to make it useful. No, it's instead because the two dex classes can now get about 3-4 times as much dex as any other class would get. The irony of this is that, as many of you probably know, BMs and seekers get more evasion AND accuracy per point of dex than archers and assassins do. So if one were feeling crazy enough, they could potentially outdo the dex based classes at their own game.

Anyways, I've rambled a bit. Essentially, I'd prefer to see how this plays out first. While missing an assassin can be rather devastating (though this is more because of tidal/focused mind and deaden nerves being there)... I was always expecting to miss dex based classes because evasion was supposed to be their defensive mechanism. It feels a bit odd to condemn archers with this request just because assassins get a vastly superior type of evasion. However if I miss too much to be able to fairly fight both classes even with reasonable adjustments and compromises (IE: Using accuracy gems since they'd be USEFUL again instead of being gung-ho on attack without needing to care about accuracy at all), then it'd make sense to ask for it.

I plan on accuracy gems, but in terms of evasion being their defense, I agree, when I ask for an accuracy buff, I don't mean a "never miss" buff like people seem to think I'm asking for...I just want to -not- miss 4/5 of my hits, 1/10 of which are 100% accurate.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This thread again.

Why evasion is important to archers;

We have the worst defences in the game

1. Casters can triple pdef ornament, and have huge mdef due to pure mag, purify proc
2. Assassins have tidal
3. Seekers get the very nice def lvl bonus/last stand
4. Barbs - really?
5. BM's bell + marrows, control skills to disable

All we get is antistuns and evasion we get paper mache LA armour, weak to either type of attack as our primary stat (dex) gives us no defensive bonus on top of offensive bonus (mag/str gives mdef/pdef) so we need to balance pdef and mdef so don't get particularly strong in either. Dex gives us evasion. Nerf this and we have no defence.

Evasion is particularly useful vs the classes that are likely to get in your face and lock you down - the worst thing to face as an archer, i.e. BMs, barbs, and assassins. (now barbs are stupidly annoying thanks to the new skill)

Bm's already have numerous 100% accurate skills, demon roar, smack (cd on both is pretty good, no idea why there are complaints here) and other skills OP mentioned.

In such situations where we are getting locked down, all we have to rely on is blessing of the condor in between your 100% accuracy locks, to be able to kite away before we get drake bashed, the antistun and damage reduction is great sure, but at the cost of a spark, you can continue to hound us, with very short cd on leaps to close the gap, demon bell with magic marrow at melee range constantly..really.

Condor can also be a life saver when another archer purges and procs on demon qs. I've seen 3-4 misses in a row.

What I find most infuriating however are BMs that complain about missing or not being able to kill people in group pk. BMs are a support class, the best support class there is for assisting DDs with kills.. Honestly if I was a BM I would put all the reawakened stat points into dex, thats nearly 8% crit and hella evasion and accuracy esp for BMs, do all the title quests that give you accuracy, equip war avatar cards that give you accuracy, pretty sure meridian gives you it too. Run around with a squad and wreak pure havoc as I've seen many well played BMs do.

FYI I have stupidly high accuracy and I still miss aim low on barbs, awesome waste of a spark. GG.

There are no complaints about smack, I straight up said they were awesome, and considering BM cooldown rates, Smack is one of the longest, cooldowns are a BMs thing because we are the lowest defense HA class, and lowest attack HA/melee. In turn, we are the fastest channeling and cooldown.

Archers always complain about costing a spark for the strangest things. Of course a range DD will consume one spark for an antistun that grants immunity...channeling isn't even long. Compared to BM it is, but that's because we're the control class. Archers need to stop complaining about chi and play a BM, who, if had the possibility to gain enough chi, could burn 17 consecutive sparks. You guys can kill with auto attack, gaining chi. BoA cost 2 sparks, yes, but you have 3. You have a skill that grants one spark instantly, I know 10 minute cooldown, but 10 minutes isn't all that long in NW or a good TW. You can build chi from a distance. You have metal skills that can be used on HA that don't cost chi.

Any chi argument you can make vs a BM is a joke, really.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Another idea is to change the BM Antistun from raising evasion to raising accuracy instead, as we don't really get anything good from evasion.

This has been said. 15 seconds of accuracy, 60 second cooldown, 1 spark cost. Also, any BM with over 200 dex is pretty much a disgrace, if you've ever played BM you'd understand. Vit would be better than dex, and we typically have 3 base vit. Would not out-date evasion while making it possible for a BM to open a 15 second window to turn a battle. 15 seconds is time for you to run, too, and afterwards it's on cooldown and we're 1 spark short, which to a BM, is a LOT of chi, as I said earlier.

At least comment on the idea of a limited duration ffs. With these archer responses you'd think I was asking for a "Never miss" level of accuracy, which is far from true, that would be pretty OP, I just want to be able to hit once in a while. I get in tussles with archers and sins that don't even have evasion buffs and I get an opening to kill them 8 or 9 times before my accuracy actually allows it, and antistun would primarily be used for...well, antistun.

TZoner - Raging Tide · January 2014

OK FIRST and FOREMOST....EVASION IS NOT A BROKEN PART OF THE GAME! It still has a HUGE effect on the game ESPECIALLY with all these INSANE PURE DEX ARCHERS. Also....Archers ARE the most broken class in the game in my opinion as well as others...while u may be a bit on the squishy side..SERIOUSLY? With r9rr and good war avatar a good archer can distance **** just about ANYONE. To all the archers out their QQing about this thread you need to open your eyes. Seriously i miss archers with most of my attacks....and your arguments about how strong smack is is mute when u can just use a skill to be immune to damage....or just AD it. You are griping about smack or our few 100% accuracy skills to be good enough to NOT warrant more accuracy is mute.....all u need to do is AD or IG our few attacks and GG. So seriously open your eyes...you are all being super biased in your opinion.

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

TZoner - Raging Tide wrote: »

OK FIRST and FOREMOST....EVASION IS NOT A BROKEN PART OF THE GAME! It still has a HUGE effect on the game ESPECIALLY with all these INSANE PURE DEX ARCHERS. Also....Archers ARE the most broken class in the game in my opinion as well as others...while u may be a bit on the squishy side..SERIOUSLY? With r9rr and good war avatar a good archer can distance **** just about ANYONE. To all the archers out their QQing about this thread you need to open your eyes. Seriously i miss archers with most of my attacks....and your arguments about how strong smack is is mute when u can just use a skill to be immune to damage....or just AD it. You are griping about smack or our few 100% accuracy skills to be good enough to NOT warrant more accuracy is mute.....all u need to do is AD or IG our few attacks and GG. So seriously open your eyes...you are all being super biased in your opinion.

AD or IG the accuracy buff even...

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

cost of a spark

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Archers always complain about costing a spark for the strangest things. Of course a range DD will consume one spark for an antistun that grants immunity...channeling isn't even long. Compared to BM it is, but that's because we're the control class. Archers need to stop complaining about chi and play a BM, who, if had the possibility to gain enough chi, could burn 17 consecutive sparks. You guys can kill with auto attack, gaining chi. BoA cost 2 sparks, yes, but you have 3. You have a skill that grants one spark instantly, I know 10 minute cooldown, but 10 minutes isn't all that long in NW or a good TW. You can build chi from a distance. You have metal skills that can be used on HA that don't cost chi.

Any chi argument you can make vs a BM is a joke, really.

Considering you chose precisely 4 words to respond to from my entire post, I'm assuming you aren't looking for a discussion or agree with everything else I said.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

This has been said. 15 seconds of accuracy, 60 second cooldown, 1 spark cost. Also, any BM with over 200 dex is pretty much a disgrace, if you've ever played BM you'd understand. Vit would be better than dex, and we typically have 3 base vit. Would not out-date evasion while making it possible for a BM to open a 15 second window to turn a battle. 15 seconds is time for you to run, too, and afterwards it's on cooldown and we're 1 spark short, which to a BM, is a LOT of chi, as I said earlier.

At least comment on the idea of a limited duration ffs. With these archer responses you'd think I was asking for a "Never miss" level of accuracy, which is far from true, that would be pretty OP, I just want to be able to hit once in a while. I get in tussles with archers and sins that don't even have evasion buffs and I get an opening to kill them 8 or 9 times before my accuracy actually allows it, and antistun would primarily be used for...well, antistun.

If this was a response to me, you messed up the quote and quoted yourself.

Edit: Never mind re-read what you mean.

In principle I think what you have suggested sounds fair and balanced, but I honestly don't think its needed. The few tough similar geared BM's I have fought 1v1s with they manage to lock me down nice and good. The few times I get away are the lucky misses, without those there wouldn't be much of a fight. I recall one such fight with the best geared BM on our server and his drake bash missed and right after I dealt the killing shot. BMs are the best CC class in the game second or on par with assassins. In group pvp the few 100% skills are more than enough to lock someone down long enough for your squad to wreck them. BMs being a support class and not a solo killer..

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

because we are the lowest defense HA class, and lowest attack HA/melee. In turn, we are the fastest channeling and cooldown.

BMs are the 2nd tankiest after barbs, with demon bell and demon magic marrow you beat seekers in terms of survability, with a **** tonne of CC you can also disable your opponent from harming you. If you need an example of this I can show you a video of how hard a well played BM is to solo take down. see here - 2nd battle CTF

TZoner - Raging Tide wrote: »

OK FIRST and FOREMOST....EVASION IS NOT A BROKEN PART OF THE GAME! It still has a HUGE effect on the game ESPECIALLY with all these INSANE PURE DEX ARCHERS. Also....Archers ARE the most broken class in the game in my opinion as well as others...while u may be a bit on the squishy side..SERIOUSLY? With r9rr and good war avatar a good archer can distance **** just about ANYONE. To all the archers out their QQing about this thread you need to open your eyes. Seriously i miss archers with most of my attacks....and your arguments about how strong smack is is mute when u can just use a skill to be immune to damage....or just AD it. You are griping about smack or our few 100% accuracy skills to be good enough to NOT warrant more accuracy is mute.....all u need to do is AD or IG our few attacks and GG. So seriously open your eyes...you are all being super biased in your opinion.

So we should use a 3min full energy cost genie skill or apo to negate one your proposed self buffs? I'm intrigued to see what kind of gear you guys are running around in that you think archers are this OP. Most BMs I have come across find us annoying and a pain to catch but don't fear us as being OP or broken. A well geared BM rushing or focussing you is a hell of a lot of pain and kiting as you can see in the video. Like are you wearing TT99 and getting one shot by a TA by a R9rr archer perhaps? Serious question.

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Considering you chose precisely 4 words to respond to from my entire post, I'm assuming you aren't looking for a discussion or agree with everything else I said.

If this was a response to me, you messed up the quote and quoted yourself.

BMs are the 2nd tankiest after barbs, with demon bell and demon magic marrow you beat seekers in terms of survability, with a **** tonne of CC you can also disable your opponent from harming you. If you need an example of this I can show you a video of how hard a well played BM is to solo take down. see here - 2nd battle CTF

Yes BMs are hard to take down solo, but we definately don't out tank seekers. We can outlive them because of our controls. And FYI, demon bell is not all it's made up to be. That casting and channeling time is precious, we're a fast class, we need to be able to do something all the time, instead of casting a buff that we can get stunned and purged during depending on archers luck. But this isn't a discussion of purge...Besides, it's P.Def only, and you deal metal damage. Even without demon bell, P.Attacks are trash as an archer anyway since we will always have more P.Def than M.Def.

That and more and more sage BMs are popping up, which don't have demon bell. And even without it they still have more P.Def than M.Def. Give a BM 30 defense levels instead, 32 if demon and 35 if sage, and with controls used properly people will start calling us tankier than barbs next ffs.

And yes it was a response to you, but it wasn't an accident. Assuming that was all that could be said about a 1 minute cooldown 15 second one spark buff on accuracy that will have a completely different primary use, I will go ahead and assume you agree with everything I said. I quoted myself because you clearly didn't read that line, seeing as how you did, and still are avoiding it entirely.

And of course I agree a BM can keep you locked, that's our thing. As I said, lowest melee damage. To be honest, after facing many archers in NW and TW, 6/10 deaths on me are from an archer, which is fine, they -are- a DD class after all, not saying they are OP in any way. They are doing their job. But back to the point, 7/10 of them don't know how to keep their distance. The 3/10 that do are huge problems, I can't even get close to them unless I use Reel In or Reckless Rush, forcing it on cooldown and consuming my chi, and reel in is not 100% chance. As far as Reckless Rush, due to its mechanics, it's typically saved for a killing or anti-running situations, not distance closing.

I didn't respond to you complaining we can keep you locked because you were basically complaining about our job, of course we can do our job at close range, that's our thing. That's like complaining a sin can come out of stealth with a stun. Honestly, what would be so gamebreaking OP about changing a 15 second nonfactor evasion into a 15 second accuracy, that won't even primarily be used as an accuracy buff? Tell me.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

Even without demon bell, P.Attacks are trash as an archer anyway since we will always have more P.Def than M.Def..

Agreed, the sole purpose of auto's are to get a purge whilst kiting follow up stun and metal assuming genie is on cd.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

And yes it was a response to you, but it wasn't an accident. Assuming that was all that could be said about a 1 minute cooldown 15 second one spark buff on accuracy that will have a completely different primary use, I will go ahead and assume you agree with everything I said. I quoted myself because you clearly didn't read that line, seeing as how you did, and still are avoiding it entirely.

Yes I realised this and fumbled a woolly edit together.

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

And of course I agree a BM can keep you locked, that's our thing. As I said, lowest melee damage. To be honest, after facing many archers in NW and TW, 6/10 deaths on me are from an archer, which is fine, they -are- a DD class after all, not saying they are OP in any way. They are doing their job. But back to the point, 7/10 of them don't know how to keep their distance. The 3/10 that do are huge problems, I can't even get close to them unless I use Reel In or Reckless Rush, forcing it on cooldown and consuming my chi, and reel in is not 100% chance. As far as Reckless Rush, due to its mechanics, it's typically saved for a killing or anti-running situations, not distance closing.

I didn't respond to you complaining we can keep you locked because you were basically complaining about our job, of course we can do our job at close range, that's our thing. That's like complaining a sin can come out of stealth with a stun. Honestly, what would be so gamebreaking OP about changing a 15 second nonfactor evasion into a 15 second accuracy, that won't even primarily be used as an accuracy buff? Tell me.

Again I edited my post; but I don't think what you are suggesting is game breaking I just honestly don't think it's needed.

I wasn't complaining about being locked by a BM, I fully expect to be and if I'm not the BM isn't very skilled. I also think quite a few BMs may disagree with you on what you are asking for as being too weak of a request and would actually want real perma accuracy instead.

I'm just tired of people saying archers are OP when they're only experience is facing a r9rr +12 archer without themselves having r9rr +12 armour. The forums are littered with nonsense of this kind. Not pointing this at you js in general. TZoner's post is a brilliant example.

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Edit: Never mind re-read what you mean.

In principle I think what you have suggested sounds fair and balanced, but I honestly don't think its needed. The few tough similar geared BM's I have fought 1v1s with they manage to lock me down nice and good. The few times I get away are the lucky misses, without those there wouldn't be much of a fight. I recall one such fight with the best geared BM on our server and his drake bash missed and right after I dealt the killing shot. BMs are the best CC class in the game second or on par with assassins. In group pvp the few 100% skills are more than enough to lock someone down long enough for your squad to wreck them. BMs being a support class and not a solo killer..

This is true enough, it's jsut irritating to go for the killing combo 8-9 times and miss the blow you need. Granted, I don't have as much dex as other BMs, capped at 150, 160 with my B card, but I'm trying to replace it with an A, so we'll see.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Agreed, the sole purpose of auto's are to get a purge whilst kiting follow up stun and metal assuming genie is on cd.

Yes I realised this and fumbled a woolly edit together.

Again I edited my post; but I don't think what you are suggesting is game breaking I just honestly don't think it's needed.

I wasn't complaining about being locked by a BM, I fully expect to be and if I'm not the BM isn't very skilled. I also think quite a few BMs may disagree with you on what you are asking for as being too weak of a request and would actually want real perma accuracy instead.

I'm just tired of people saying archers are OP when they're only experience is facing a r9rr +12 archer without themselves having r9rr +12 armour. The forums are littered with nonsense of this kind. Not pointing this at you js in general. TZoner's post is a brilliant example.

I see that now, thanks for the heads up.

As far as archers being "omg too OP" Yes, they are OP due to high crits, just like a sin is. I don't think they are "too" OP but they are definitely up there, however there are many more OP classes. Archer has the longest range, particularly sage, so people think too highly of them when they get immobilized at max range from what appears to be nowhere, so people think they are OP as all hell.

But really, it's an archers -job- to stay max range and get kills with crits. My thinking is that since we are a support class, we can't support when stunned, dead, or missing LA classes. The main reason I want the accuracy isn't even archers, really. When I see an archer in the distance, I tend to Blade Hurl, which won't miss and will disable weapon, close the range and use roar, which even at sage is about 95% chance (yes accuracy based, but as you level it it gains an accuracy boost, so chances of failing are extremely slim) rendering any accuracy buff essentially a joke.

I want the accuracy for sins when they pop up on my team mates. Between tidal protection and high evasion, it's extremely difficult for me to do my job. I can sue Buddha Guard to raise P.Def, but only once every 10 minutes. 10 minutes is 7 kills to a sin, even if they die in the process. Many sins come out with TP on so they can ensure that kill, so as a BM I first use smack. Of course, it hits, but due to DN it doesn't kill even if I did enough to tick it, and TP prevents silence.

So I roar...And tidal protection again. Drake Bash to follow, and the hit misses. Assassins are fast and high damage, so those 3 failures are enough to kill 2 or more for my squad mates and stealth away.

So with a 15 second accuracy boost while antistunned, I might be able to, if not stun, kill the sin. Because of an archers range I'm more likely to use slows and more accurate skills, so as I said, it's not the archers I'm worried about, since when you use a stun, and it lands, it actually lands on them. Sins, you need to unleash control after control and hope to god they don't just use faith.

TZoner - Raging Tide · January 2014

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In principle I think what you have suggested sounds fair and balanced, but I honestly don't think its needed. The few tough similar geared BM's I have fought 1v1s with they manage to lock me down nice and good. The few times I get away are the lucky misses, without those there wouldn't be much of a fight. I recall one such fight with the best geared BM on our server and his drake bash missed and right after I dealt the killing shot. BMs are the best CC class in the game second or on par with assassins. In group pvp the few 100% skills are more than enough to lock someone down long enough for your squad to wreck them. BMs being a support class and not a solo killer..

BMs are the 2nd tankiest after barbs, with demon bell and demon magic marrow you beat seekers in terms of survability, with a **** tonne of CC you can also disable your opponent from harming you. If you need an example of this I can show you a video of how hard a well played BM is to solo take down. see here - 2nd battle CTF

So we should use a 3min full energy cost genie skill or apo to negate one your proposed self buffs? I'm intrigued to see what kind of gear you guys are running around in that you think archers are this OP. Most BMs I have come across find us annoying and a pain to catch but don't fear us as being OP or broken. A well geared BM rushing or focussing you is a hell of a lot of pain and kiting as you can see in the video. Like are you wearing TT99 and getting one shot by a TA by a R9rr archer perhaps? Serious question.

To respond to the first part of what i have quoted from you i must ask....what sort of BM build are you referring to?....as there are many bm builds the ONLY bms i see with little to no accuracy issues are dex/aps bms. Saethos and I are both not that....in fact i have even less dex than he does as i am trying for pure str when i reborn the second time....as a pure str bm my accuracy FAILS alot.

To answer your end game question.....well at least for myself...I am full t3 +5 or more. Saethos as im sure he has stated is r9rr....we BOTH have issues with well geared archers...as if it isnt bad enough archers are good at keep away they have their insane evasion to dodge our attacks. In a true pk scenario i find myself getting killed by archer and psys more than ANYTHING. Your range and ability to avoid us are truly a pain. This is why we are saying an accuracy buff is needed. Not just that but the issue with sins also poses a problem...when i cant hit a sin at all after it pops out of stealth and stuns me...of i DO hit it and it gets its status evasion....then it just pops back into stealth...yea its just insane.

Kendaichi - Dreamweaver · January 2014

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So let me get this straight, what you're saying is that because archers/casters that are r9rr+12 hit bm's that aren't r9rr+12 freakishly hard, we should change the game and give (undergeared) bm's a boost to combat this???

You're on my server. Do you know who slewdem is, that is endgame gear, I hit him for peanuts, and he does his job, doesnt go for kills, plays his class, while ranged DDs can get away with highly refined wep and hide in range, melee classes cannot, they need to be tanky enough to get in the thick of things.

Unless you are comparing like for like gear, there is no discussion.

I do believe (undergeared) bms do struggle the most to do anything. (I have experienced mass pvp on multiple characters, in the exact same gear in some cases even, bms have the most to overcome.) Yes that is an opinion, and obviously others disagree yourself included, but meh that is my opinion/belief, and it will likely never change until bm's get a bit of 'help' that doesn't have to come from other picking up their slack/workign their *** off trying to keep that 'undergeared' bm alive.

I am well aware of who slewdem is, I am also well aware that bms in endgame gear are badass. I have been on this server/game for quite some time, and yes a bm was my first character. (Still the simple fact is that bm's scare me the least over 95% of the time, that of course doesn't mean all bms are like that) I also am well aware that if you boost 'undergeared' of ANY class you risk making the ones who are geared even more unkillable, still I absolutely believe that bm's have the least going for them while undergeared. Again that is indeed an opinion one that obviously many casters/archers do not agree with, but still I do believe being able to attack at a distance can compensate quite well for 'crappish' gear.

I also completely disagree about that bologna about 'unless comparing like gear for like gear, there is no discussion." In 1 on 1 yes... but when the game is so geared towards mass pvp/nw... I believe things NEED to be 'enjoyable' (obviously I am not trying to say bm's/any other class should be invincible killing machines especially with their stuns) to people regardless of their gear/choice of class.

Either way I do not wish to argue with you, as nothing you/I/Anyone else has said... has convinced me to sway from my belief.

Its spaaam.

(Not the traditional 'spam')

Stupid Pointless Annoying And Absolutely Maddening.

Ergo I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

Saethos - Raging Tide · January 2014

My poor attempt to revive this discussion. My suggestion is to change the current BM antistun that reads as follows.

Will of the Bodhisattva

Mana　100
Channel　Instant
Cooldown　60.0　seconds
Weapon　Melee weapons

Required Cultivation　Transcendent
Focus your vigor to move as gracefully as a dragon
in flight. Increases your speed by 100%
and your Evasion while moving by 100%, and grants
immunity to movement-impairing effects. Lasts 15 seconds.

Costs 1 Spark.

As it stands we gain 100% evasion, which is about 2-2.5k evasion on a 200 dexterity BM, which is nice and pretty cool, but we still don't get close to being anywhere good from that other than barbs, which deal minimal damage on a BM anyway.

However, making the buff give 100% accuracy might be a bit excessive, a 200 dexterity BM with accuracy titles would have roughly a 2200 accuracy boost, which is a lot. More than enough, that would render sin and archer evasion useless, which is not what I want. I simply want to not miss 3/5 hits, missing 2/5 would be much nicer.

My suggestion would be to change the 100% evasion boost to a 50% accuracy boost. That way, a 200 dex BM gets 1k accuracy, and a BM such as myself who has 150 dex will get 750 accuracy and around 300 accuracy on the 60 dex BMs, which would balance the hard hitting pure axe from oneshotting the LA classes on every hit. It's not too much to break evasion for sins and archers and even other BMs, but it's enough for a BM to get some good hits and stuns in while the buff lasts for 15 seconds.

Does this sound fair to the rest of you?

TZoner - Raging Tide · January 2014

While i like your idea to change the bms skill to give accuracy instead of evasion i dont think this is ever going to happen....i personally think it would be better to just have a buff entirely devoted to giving a boost to a players accuracy....be it a bm buff or another classes buff...self or squad. There is a new CM in town sparkiesoft maybe he can run this idea thru the right people and get something done. You have brought up VERY valid issues concerning Non dex classes and i think this severely needs looking into.

Request for a new buff

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