How to Archer in PvP

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Great guide, will prove useful for archers stepping up into endgame/top tier TWs.

Few points to add;

Awareness/positioning/target selection: Important skills that come with experience

-identifying key threats is your role, operating on the flanks gives ample room to move and be less likely to get caught in aoe's so working out what you need to be hitting on at that precise moment is key, especially when supporting a cata push, as soon as enemy AAs get in range of barbs you need to put down solid DD they can't ignore.

-barrage is a flashy animation that everyone will target as a priority, will want to barrage and get away whilst still immune, chaining IG, AD, and for faith build pre-105 a great way to do this cost free is ataraxia immediately after the barrage, those 10+ people that targeted you just lost their target and even if you get popped out of stealth, you usually can leap out alive.

-WoG has a very annoying channel of 1 sec which can be interrupted with stuns/sleeps/seals, in a tricky situation depending on who is targeted on you hitting fortify/will surge/faith then WoG is a safer bid to get away

-chi management, Take Aim is great for demon archers due to (as you mentioned) hitting faster than auto attack, but also giving significantly more chi than auto attacks, spamming this is great for chi building

-obvious stuff but when you target enemy catabarb - STA - Mo Zuns and then find his cleric. In TW your squad filter should be set on clerics, primary objective KoS

Will edit more if stuff springs to mind.

Cheers

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Disagree: Knockback Arrow: Beautiful for sage dph playstyle because it's 1.6 chan+cast and like most archer skills can combine with either an auto or instant take aim

+30chi for demons isn't shabby either if you believe in your luck

Sage frost: was bad when archers didn't have the highest base P.atk ingame. Now it hits like a truck

HideYoHubby - Archosaur · January 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Disagree: Knockback Arrow: Beautiful for sage dph playstyle because it's 1.6 chan+cast and like most archer skills can combine with either an auto or instant take aim

+30chi for demons isn't shabby either if you believe in your luck

Sage frost: was bad when archers didn't have the highest base P.atk ingame. Now it hits like a truck

Sage frost really is just **** when it comes to dmg. Simple math shows that:

R9T3 +12 with garnet gems, NW rings lands to ~4000 average damage points, assuming good engravings. Drakeflames and maybe some engravings might be a close figure too

750 dex archer gets to damage multiplier 8 if we account sage titan and blazing arrow with mastery. 750 will be bit low with all the rebirth extra people are gonna get but prior to rebirths it would of been high number, making it somewhat decent point for this.

32000 damage points as basic damage. Add the 2880 damage from skill itself. 34880 damage points, too bad it doesnt stay there. PvP reductions cut it to 8720. Nobody has under 60% m.def purged as my catshop barb has 57,75% reduction w/o ornaments atm. We get to 3488 damage points with 60% reduction. Even with attack levels surpassing defense fairly clearly, say by 70 levels, we get to ~6k damage.

Sure it crits pretty high but thats on target w/o buffs making it more or less a meh number. But +12 bow wouldnt break 15k crit on buffless barb w/o ornaments, kinda says everything. All in all, only times when the skill is somewhat worth it is if you have situation where you are willing to pay the chi cost for 5s slow or getting last hit on some purged HA with ~10% hp running away. Knowing how "common" that is, I kinda prefer demon proc tbh.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Sage frost really is just **** when it comes to dmg. Simple math shows that:

R9T3 +12 with garnet gems, NW rings lands to ~4000 average damage points, assuming good engravings. Drakeflames and maybe some engravings might be a close figure too

750 dex archer gets to damage multiplier 8 if we account sage titan and blazing arrow with mastery. 750 will be bit low with all the rebirth extra people are gonna get but prior to rebirths it would of been high number, making it somewhat decent point for this.

32000 damage points as basic damage. Add the 2880 damage from skill itself. 34880 damage points, too bad it doesnt stay there. PvP reductions cut it to 8720. Nobody has under 60% m.def purged as my catshop barb has 57,75% reduction w/o ornaments atm. We get to 3488 damage points with 60% reduction. Even with attack levels surpassing defense fairly clearly, say by 70 levels, we get to ~6k damage.

Sure it crits pretty high but thats on target w/o buffs making it more or less a meh number. But +12 bow wouldnt break 15k crit on buffless barb w/o ornaments, kinda says everything. All in all, only times when the skill is somewhat worth it is if you have situation where you are willing to pay the chi cost for 5s slow or getting last hit on some purged HA with ~10% hp running away. Knowing how "common" that is, I kinda prefer demon proc tbh.

Sans bull****: Roughly as hard as LS with no debuff. Which is why sages are so in love with this skill. It does work well with the metal combo, which is too short to fill its own cooldown. Sadly, it has a chi cost.

Also, how do you prefer demon proc? WTF. Demons don't have any reason to cast that ****. Why does the proc even matter?

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2014

15k is **** damage now? Wow things have sure changed.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Sans bull****: Roughly as hard as LS with no debuff. Which is why sages are so in love with this skill. It does work well with the metal combo, which is too short to fill its own cooldown. Sadly, it has a chi cost.

Also, how do you prefer demon proc? WTF. Demons don't have any reason to cast that ****. Why does the proc even matter?

LS also gives 5 extra chi on average over costing 25 and you seriously gonna LS w/o debuff? Never forget FA, unlike LS, cant purge either. As far as CDs go, QS tends to go well in there and only times you would want FA in there is when you are completely ignored and have no need to move/cast wings at all.

Demon proc gives chi at times, which isnt all that horrible and allows to use the skill more for what it was intended, slowing people. Granted I assumed before I checked it had higher % for chi proc but meh, still 15 chi instead of 25. Not that there is often a situation where one would like said slow but how often is FA water damage useful either? The damage of FA is exaggerated by some, wizard with gush will hit harder to put things into perspective.

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

15k is **** damage now? Wow things have sure changed.

I said it wont break 15k with a crit on barb w/o buffs or ornaments - N3 one for that matter. Only reason it gets even remotely useful is attack levels over defense levels said barb lacks. And as we both know, barb is the best target for such skill to be effective, discounting aps set sins. You throw in buffs and ornaments and damage is maybe 8k crits, on a target which has nowhere near the m.def of barbs with comparable gear to +12 bow.

Ps. Situations where sage FA is useful are so rarely situations where you should put yourself the skill is pretty horrible due chi cost and the "hits like a truck" illusions.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

LS also gives 5 extra chi on average over costing 25 and you seriously gonna LS w/o debuff? Never forget FA, unlike LS, cant purge either. As far as CDs go, QS tends to go well in there and only times you would want FA in there is when you are completely ignored and have no need to move/cast wings at all.

Demon proc gives chi at times, which isnt all that horrible and allows to use the skill more for what it was intended, slowing people. Granted I assumed before I checked it had higher % for chi proc but meh, still 15 chi instead of 25. Not that there is often a situation where one would like said slow but how often is FA water damage useful either? The damage of FA is exaggerated by some, wizard with gush will hit harder to put things into perspective.

I'm not sure why you'd want to cast demon FA at all. You waste more time casting the skill than you'll win by slowing them down. A chance to not lose chi as well is hardly a great gain.

Gush will also hit harder than any of your metal skills, so i don't see the point. As for it hitting like LS w/o debuff, i'm not saying you want to LS without debuff, i'm mentioning it for comparison (and i'm a demon archer, i do LS without debuff) because if you're wondering how hard it hits, LS will tell you almost exactly.

FA water damage is, according to sage archers, useful to add to your metal combo if you need that little bit more magic damage to kill someone. And, well, i don't know about yoru server, but where i play, if i'm trying to kill a high priority HA target in tw, they're usually ignoring me, because i'm an archer, and it's not their job to try and kill me.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

I said it wont break 15k with a crit on barb w/o buffs or ornaments - N3 one for that matter. Only reason it gets even remotely useful is attack levels over defense levels said barb lacks. And as we both know, barb is the best target for such skill to be effective, discounting aps set sins. You throw in buffs and ornaments and damage is maybe 8k crits, on a target which has nowhere near the m.def of barbs with comparable gear to +12 bow.

Ps. Situations where sage FA is useful are so rarely situations where you should put yourself the skill is pretty horrible due chi cost and the "hits like a truck" illusions.

I'm pretty sure metal damage on barbs with gear comparable to +12 r9 bows is unimpressive as well.

AsMyliuTave - Sanctuary · January 2014

I really wouldn't go as far as saying it hits like a truck, but it's useful for filling the cooldown gap of metal skills in the rare occasion I find myself trying to kill a HA target while not getting attacked myself. The slow is basically useless, but the damage helps. I do use it, but it's rare. It's good to alternate with QS e.g. QS, TS, TB, LS, FS, TS, TB, LS, QS, TS, TB, LS, FS blablabla into infinity. Not exactly common you get a chance to stand still and attack like that. The only time really is helping to take down a cata barb once the clerics are dead. Even then, if you're the only archer you'd be better off dropping AI and BV first, before even considering this combo.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · January 2014

Pretty much anyone who's likely to be hit by metal damage has HOS on their genie. Much less people have oxygen bubble.

It's not a bad skill. It's just situational. It's not like sage archers really struggle in terms of chi either.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Pretty much anyone who's likely to be hit by metal damage has HOS on their genie. Much less people have oxygen bubble.

It's not a bad skill. It's just situational. It's not like sage archers really struggle in terms of chi either.

You know you're on a PvE server when people have HoS on their genie.

RankNine - Momaganon · January 2014

oh, an archer pvp guide that encourages us to kite, thats beautiful!
for some reason on my server, kiting makes everyone mad and causes them to grab deep into the insult-box

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

You know you're on a PvE server when people have HoS on their genie.

Would you care to elaborate oh so wise PvP server guy, as to why it's a waste of genie space/energy in say NW for the average r9/rr seeker/bm/assassin..

Heartz - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

You know you're on a PvE server when people have HoS on their genie.

guess you're one of those complaining about max geared seekers too? or dieng to them.

Jesusisback - Raging Tide · January 2014

Realistically speaking, you don't "need" HoS unless undergeared (gg)

Heartz - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

Realistically speaking, you don't "need" HoS unless undergeared (gg)

not for most seekers, no. But I guess you may look at it the same way as i do with some other skills, i simply wont get them, because i prefer other skills.. even if it means i'll die in certain situations.

and yea im undergared. im such a nab walking around with 27,9k hp, 29,2k pdef and 19,6k mdef fullbuff ;(

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · January 2014

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

oh, an archer pvp guide that encourages us to kite, thats beautiful!
for some reason on my server, kiting makes everyone mad and causes them to grab deep into the insult-box

gotta kite so far that you end up signetting your opponent back to town

Anyways, why sage frost? Because it's almost twice as fast as Sage Thunderous Blast (twice as fast as lv. 10) and sometimes you just ain't got time for dat slow-*** metal aoe

@Sint not carrying HoS around please tell me you're kidding. I don't carry HoS on genie simply because the Seekers that know how to metal combo can oneshot me with zerkcrit Rocksplitting Cleave anyways, and the ones that can't more or less all use quid as force of will

Mooooooooo - Lost City · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

You know you're on a PvE server when people have HoS on their genie.

lol wat. maxed seeker (no war avatar) can bypass almost any class other than bm with metal combo zc even those that are +12 jaded.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

gotta kite so far that you end up signetting your opponent back to town

Anyways, why sage frost? Because it's almost twice as fast as Sage Thunderous Blast (twice as fast as lv. 10) and sometimes you just ain't got time for dat slow-*** metal aoe

@Sint not carrying HoS around please tell me you're kidding. I don't carry HoS on genie simply because the Seekers that know how to metal combo can oneshot me with zerkcrit Rocksplitting Cleave anyways, and the ones that can't more or less all use quid as force of will

So you're saying HoS is pointless, that you don't have it, and then you're asking me why i say it's pointless? For roughly the same reason you say it's pointless, really.

Also, do you know anyone who doesn't have a shortage of genie skill space? If i could get any skills i wanted on my genie, i'd get every elemental resistance simply because it's easier on my genie's energy. As it is, i have an 8 skill genie and HoS doesn't fit on it. Since 8 skills is the maximum, and i can think of 8 skills that are not HoS and which are nevertheless more useful for every non arcane class (and please don't ask why i didn't bother trying to come up with reasons why arcanes might want HoS) Honestly, the only reason to get it seems to be something like "i'm an HA/LA type and i really just **** myself every time i see an archer" and though it may surprise you, that seems a little strange to me.

Ofc, i use only one genie, because i do actually play on a PvP server, and getting caught in random PvP with a PvE genie would be a lot like having my pants down when confronted with a camera (not as embarassing ad you'd think, but nevertheless not ideal). So i don't have all that extra genie space i imagine PvE server folks do have, and which they might use to have genies with HoS on them for god only knows what.

My genie setup: Stunning Blast, Fortify, CE, AD, Expell, Will Surge, Holy Path, ToP. (vit/mag.)

Mooooooooo - Lost City · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

So you're saying HoS is pointless, that you don't have it, and then you're asking me why i say it's pointless? For roughly the same reason you say it's pointless, really.

Also, do you know anyone who doesn't have a shortage of genie skill space? If i could get any skills i wanted on my genie, i'd get every elemental resistance simply because it's easier on my genie's energy. As it is, i have an 8 skill genie and HoS doesn't fit on it. Since 8 skills is the maximum, and i can think of 8 skills that are not HoS and which are nevertheless more useful for every non arcane class (and please don't ask why i didn't bother trying to come up with reasons why arcanes might want HoS) Honestly, the only reason to get it seems to be something like "i'm an HA/LA type and i really just **** myself every time i see an archer" and though it may surprise you, that seems a little strange to me.

Ofc, i use only one genie, because i do actually play on a PvP server, and getting caught in random PvP with a PvE genie would be a lot like having my pants down when confronted with a camera (not as embarassing ad you'd think, but nevertheless not ideal). So i don't have all that extra genie space i imagine PvE server folks do have, and which they might use to have genies with HoS on them for god only knows what.

My genie setup: Stunning Blast, Fortify, CE, AD, Expell, Will Surge, Holy Path, ToP. (vit/mag.)

lol you have ToP (pretty much purely pve genie skill), and no sof or faith o.O

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · January 2014

HoS is awesome; it doesn't work for me because my gear doesn't allow me to tank a regular hit anyways, but yours might be good enough that a seeker may have to actually sac slash you to kill you in which case a HoS basically prevents a oneshot/bypass

Or if an archer ztp combos you, HoS pretty much shuts that down and forces them to switch to physical-->if they notice HoS at all

Or HoS as cleric starts casting MoW while locked by SoG and basically make them resort to weaker physical attacks (that don't bypass Invoke that SoG grants)

You use it because in all 3 of these cases it's a cheap-*** counter to being either oneshot,bypassed, or ticked to death while disabled forever

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Whats a better replacement for ToP (as a last resort/cd conservation skill) when you already have AD/Faith on a vit/mag build genie? Assume 8 genie slots (so something that would be more useful than ToP even given other possible slots to put it in). I'm interested in hearing suggestions actually.

Jesusisback - Raging Tide · January 2014

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

lol you have ToP (pretty much purely pve genie skill), and no sof or faith o.O

Since when was ToP considered more of a PvE skill than PvP? o_O At high refines that's a life saver b:laugh
Also SoF's too situational seeing as it's strictly for wizzies, i'd rather have a more general pk skill like fortify or will surge OR an amp ....and gg no faith cuz he's not 105 yet b:surrender

opkossy · January 2014

ToP isn't that good of a last resort skill because it takes extra time to kick in to begin with. Between latency, animations, client differences, and so on, it's extremely easy to have Tree fail you in PvP against someone who got you to the point where you'd want to use it. And in most scenarios where you do use Tree preemptively and time it perfectly to get that heal right as you need it, odds are you could have been better served via use of another skill without draining your genie as badly.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

lol you have ToP (pretty much purely pve genie skill), and no sof or faith o.O

How is ToP even useful in PvE? Does anyone even take dmg in PvE anymore? I like ToP because most people are less familiar with ToP delay than i am, which means they overextend more easily while they hope for a kill.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

HoS is awesome; it doesn't work for me because my gear doesn't allow me to tank a regular hit anyways, but yours might be good enough that a seeker may have to actually sac slash you to kill you in which case a HoS basically prevents a oneshot/bypass

Or if an archer ztp combos you, HoS pretty much shuts that down and forces them to switch to physical-->if they notice HoS at all

Or HoS as cleric starts casting MoW while locked by SoG and basically make them resort to weaker physical attacks (that don't bypass Invoke that SoG grants)

You use it because in all 3 of these cases it's a cheap-*** counter to being either oneshot,bypassed, or ticked to death while disabled forever

Well, if i were going to play a cleric, i'd go for SoG > Full debuff/half hp > sleep > bypass, in which case HoS would only save me if: the cleric were dumb enough to keep on using metal untill i wake up without dieing, or uses pdmg and fails to bypass me. Alternatively, i could ToP, tick my own charm and ruin it for him/her, Expell myself to get out of the SoG seal (i seem to recall that works, or rather, i seem to recall seeing Curses doing it in NW last week, so i'm assuming it works) avoid the SoG seal altogether by using Will Surge on time.

Archers on HL hardly ever use ZTP, and even if they did, it's fairly obvious and there are plenty of ways to avoid it.

As for preventing 1shot/bypass from a seeker: i get 1shot either because: i didn't see it coming, in which case HoS wouldn't save me either, or i saw it coming and i'm out of ways to avoid it. In most cases, there's def charms, WoG, shell, or, hell, i could use another genie skill that doesn't work only against seekers.

OPKossy wrote: »

ToP isn't that good of a last resort skill because it takes extra time to kick in to begin with. Between latency, animations, client differences, and so on, it's extremely easy to have Tree fail you in PvP against someone who got you to the point where you'd want to use it. And in most scenarios where you do use Tree preemptively and time it perfectly to get that heal right as you need it, odds are you could have been better served via use of another skill without draining your genie as badly.

Not sure which skill you might be thinking about. What heals 70% (i think?) of your HP, makes your charm tick give you slightly more HP, and works against everyone?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · January 2014

gl blocking a zerkcrit ion spike with 50 def levels and 50% mdef shaved off of you by fortify debuff and possibly even Crimson Soul powder with something less costly than HoS

Zsw - Dreamweaver · January 2014

OPKossy wrote: »

ToP isn't that good of a last resort skill because it takes extra time to kick in to begin with. Between latency, animations, client differences, and so on, it's extremely easy to have Tree fail you in PvP against someone who got you to the point where you'd want to use it. And in most scenarios where you do use Tree preemptively and time it perfectly to get that heal right as you need it, odds are you could have been better served via use of another skill without draining your genie as badly.

Need a name please. b:thanks Also, we're assuming 8 slots which means a skill such as Fortify wouldn't as much replace ToP as it would go along side it.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

gl blocking a zerkcrit ion spike with 50 def levels and 50% mdef shaved off of you by fortify debuff and possibly even Crimson Soul powder with something less costly than HoS

Wut? The thing is, any seeker who needs to go to those lenghts to kill me is a teletubby. Also, if a seeker is willing to throw out all his/her resources (you're talking minor genie waste + pot waste, QPQ, and possibly affinity too.) I can afford to waste a bit of chi to stop it. Shell the Spike, condor if you feel like it, stun that newb once fort comes off and you're good. Alternatively, Shell > WoG. Or shell > Leap, or if you enjoy overreacting, fort > IG. Or Pan Gu. Purification Balm, if you want to amuse yourself. Hell, you can use all of them(except for the things with overlapping cooldown times), who gives a ****. You can even shell, holy path to whatever is closest to you and out of the seeker's range and Wingspan it (if the seeker is fast enough to actually hit your shell. That seeker is desperate, so he's probably too squishy to take you on if his combo fails.

HoS isn't, imo, worth the opportunity cost. For every seeker i run into who's right on that sweet spot where HoS will keep me alive, there's a few dozen ganks where any of the skills i have on my genie is more useful. (i have stunning blast to troll, though, i admit it)

Eoria - Harshlands · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Expell myself to get out of the SoG seal

Expel seal and SoG seal are in completely different positions on the icon bar. Bewitch seal is in same spot though I think and won't be overwritten by SoG seal so this may have been what you saw.

Expel is nice to use right after sin throatcut though for phys immunity since expel seal doesn't overwrite throatcut seal.

Sint - Harshlands · January 2014

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Expel seal and SoG seal are in completely different positions on the icon bar. Bewitch seal is in same spot though I think and won't be overwritten by SoG seal so this may have been what you saw.

Expel is nice to use right after sin throatcut though for phys immunity since expel seal doesn't overwrite throatcut seal.

Pretty sure i saw Curses immune to pdmg and SoG'd simultaneously. Asked him about it, but he didn't give me a straight answer. Didn't have much time to check it, since this happened when we had already won and were porting out. Maybe he just expelled himself after WoG.

Also, wouldn't Bewitch have turned him into something that didn't resemble Curses?

Cheze - Lost City · January 2014

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

Wut? The thing is, any seeker who needs to go to those lenghts to kill me is a teletubby. Also, if a seeker is willing to throw out all his/her resources (you're talking minor genie waste + pot waste, QPQ, and possibly affinity too.) I can afford to waste a bit of chi to stop it. Shell the Spike, condor if you feel like it, stun that newb once fort comes off and you're good. Alternatively, Shell > WoG. Or shell > Leap, or if you enjoy overreacting, fort > IG. Or Pan Gu. Purification Balm, if you want to amuse yourself. Hell, you can use all of them(except for the things with overlapping cooldown times), who gives a ****. You can even shell, holy path to whatever is closest to you and out of the seeker's range and Wingspan it (if the seeker is fast enough to actually hit your shell. That seeker is desperate, so he's probably too squishy to take you on if his combo fails.

the only thing he mentioned that is a waste is the crimson powder. everything else just cost 1 spark and 55 genie energy.

I'd like to know how you plan to shell when you are sealed for 3 seconds, which is enough time to cast the metal debuff and another metal skill which will hit you at -100% metal resistence. Pretty much the only thing to do is to use an apoc which has 2 minute cd or immune on genie or faith (which you don't have). basically the third time he uses the combo about 1 minute into the fight is almost a guarenteed kill.

How to Archer in PvP

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