Why does everyone hate hybrid builds?

Domethies - Raging Tide · January 2014

Okay, so i was stood in west today messing around with some guys doing duels and such, and these guys came over and were making comments, mainly about my barb as its aps. Now he was calling me fail and that i wasnt a real barb cause i can use claws and all that classic stuff about why aps barbs are a waste of space. But then it occurred to me, i rarely have squad wipes i can tank pretty much anything without any issues at all, so why was i getting this much hate?

And its not just aps barbs either, ive seen people telling other hybrid classes that they fail at the game too, everything from aps psy to HA clerics, but why do these types of builds get so much hate? Obviously they have major drawbacks which (i would assume) is noted by the person before they go for these builds.

So my question for you guys, if they are not wiping out your squads, they can pull their own weight and are not impairing your game in anyway, why would you hate on someone else's play style? b:puzzled

Desdi - Sanctuary · January 2014

A lot of unusual builds are hard to pull off properly or require a good budget. An APS Barbarian without good refines, shards etc. will be squishy. A HA Cleric without a good weapon and refines will have crappy magic and consequently crappy heals.

I've seen a number of people that have tried to go for these unusual builds and fail at them, making their builds pretty bad. I've seen APS Barbarians with bad defences and HP (mostly during the Nirvana APS craze) as I've seen HA Venomancers that lacked proper refines/ornaments making them food to anything that uses magic attacks, having terrible survivablity (which is counter effective to what a HA build is supposed to be).

On the other hand you have people who are obsessed with what's best and most effective. Sometimes they are right, especially now in the era of R9rr and NW gears and whatnot. For example, an endgame Venomancer can get crazy defences which makes HA less effective due to the R9rr and G16 Nirvana gear gap.

Lastly, you have those people that just follow what other people have told them. They don't really read things, don't make their own research and just blindly follow other people or people they have been impressed by and follow their advice/builds without understanding what's so good about it.

I find unusual builds particularly interesting and fascinating despite me usually talking in favour of certain "stereotype" builds (eg. pure magic Clerics). I like arguing/debating over builds and discussing with people but despite the way my posts may be, I don't look down on people who decide to follow unusual/hybrid builds. Sometimes I get to learn some interesting things through these debates. I'm fairly sure some people that read my Venomancer posts think I'm some pure magic AA preacher/elitist~ but I'm not like that. I just like debating.

To sum up, unusual builds can bring interesting playstyles and new tricks. It's not always easy to pull these off properly resulting in a lot of people ending up with "fail builds". If you've managed to pull off an unusual build that works, kudos to you. If you've proven this to people and they still don't believe you or think your build is bad, that's their problem.

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Because people can't stop complaining about everything that's out of their confort zone.

In DW, one of the best clerics isn't full magic, one of the best archers isn't full dex. They play their classes well and they adapt themselves to their builds (which give them more survival, for example).

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · January 2014

i think its fine, or pple think its fine. ............up until the point where those pple cannot efficiently preform the task that is asked of their class.
i remember wayyyy long ago, maybe around the first of nirvana days or before. I asked asterpoo how this hybrid VIT cleric healed him. He told me his heals were 'like the soft wind blowing through a window'
basically the heals were weak >_> thats just an example tho.

Kristina_t - Heavens Tear · January 2014

Domethies - Raging Tide wrote: »

everything from aps psy ....

This isn't that last game of fantasy b:chuckle Need to catch that fishy and make fish sticks really quick before it makes a spawning run.

Domethies - Raging Tide · January 2014

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

i think its fine, or pple think its fine. ............up until the point where those pple cannot efficiently preform the task that is asked of their class.

This is something i agree with. Im not saying im going to make a HA cleric then go to fws rocking some +12 t3 axes and not even have a magic weapon.

The guys who were making the comments, well to be fair its not just them, most of the server will call me fail before seeing me do anything, and the other half of the server says thanks for the help with my boss b:laugh

Euthymius - Heavens Tear · January 2014

I like APS kitties. I even made one myself; though its not fully developed yet, it can still get the job done. That said, those players just have their own ideals as to how XYZ should be played or geared up, and anything different is deemed to be a failure otherwise.

I bet you have fun proving them wrong when given the opportunity...

Salari - Raging Tide · January 2014

to each his/her own i say. Just because I dont agree with something doesnt mean i will think that person is fail.

Its just another nab to blacklist Domethies b:victory

SakuLv - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Well If u have an aps barb just for your own fun idm
I guess you can be OK DD in squad too

I once had to run lunar with aps barb..squad was looking for tank for 20min..and he (the aps barb) pmed
I didnt check his gear or anything at start, he had like 15k HP or so ( i notice that most new barbs have it, who just got 100 or so)

Anyways, we tele in and first thing what Cleric ask is- how far you gonna pull
he didn't answer
We were like standing there for 2 mins o.o
Then seeker was like- Ok ill try to pull.. he did it pretty OK..he set up vortex and said to barb- pull that next line
So the aps barb went in..and died (i was thinking he might be HA tt90 or something)

Then we got to the part to kill 1st Lunar boss, seeker already said he cant tank them
Cleric again ask the aps barb- are you ready to run in? Then at last he spoke- i cant tank

On that moment i was on sin in that squad and said- oki lets improvise , since u took the spot as tank run in and take aggro
So he went in (cleric was putting BB) after 2-3 hits barb died and i tanked the boss (first time

did pretty OK i think )

2nd part on Lunar we did very slowly , group by group
Then again came part of boss, Hountry (something) Queen lol
Yet again we stand 2min...awkward ...anyways i run in first (tanked queen pretty ok)

and the aps barb left after BH boss..and squad leader raged ;D lol

Before he left i check his gear, he had all aps gear (like bm should) and fist +12 refined
he could not take aggro at all from my sin (+6 refine on wep)

So yah..I don't think the best of that barb at all, if i will see him in squad again i will just run away
I wouldnt care at all if he is aps or not - as long as he would do what his class have to - which is tank o.o and maybe pull...at least 4 mobs as minimum lol

I have seen sin with claws o.o ( he said he is more aps with that lol )
Seen veno with claws (oh dear it took her too long to purge boss ), some other HA venos do pretty good
Have seen HA mystic (so op)
HA cleric (fastest run ever in lunar /o/ )

But yah as long as they do what they have to or at least try their best..i totally dont mind what gear you have

Domethies - Raging Tide · January 2014

Kristina_t - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This isn't that last game of fantasy b:chuckle Need to catch that fishy and make fish sticks really quick before it makes a spawning run.

my friend was a aps psy, i guess sparks and stuff are useless for them but he seemed to enjoy plaing it.

Euthymius, yeah it can be pretty good, my favourite moments are when im helping out in maybe bh69/79 and the lvl 80s and 90s are amazed that im using claws. i get so many "wow never seen a claw barb" reactions, a shame too, i find aps barb fun to play.

And Salari, if i blacklisted everyone who had called me a fail id need a bigger blacklist. b:laugh

MissCherie - Harshlands · January 2014

I don't hate hybrid builds, but only for support classes.

When I take a barb as tank in my squad I don't want a barb with 7k hp that get one shot and cannot tank.

95% of people that want a barb in squad want it for tanking and I didn't saw any APS barb able to tank. (I don't say it's impossible, but I personally didn't saw a single APS barb able to tank)

If a BM, veno, cleric or mystic is hybrid I don't give a **** if they can do their job.

It always look like that people trying different builds do it on class that shouldn't have a different build or don't have the money to really do it.

For the money: How many HA clerics I saw that say they use HA to have more defenses and survivability, but yet when I did check their stats everything was worse than my AA cleric cause they use lower gears cause no money.

For the class: Barbs are suppose to be made to tank, people take them in squad to tank, if the barb cannot tank than what's the point to go APS? No one will take a barb as DD in a squad.

So for support classes I don't mind, but classes that have a role to play and make a build that cannot fit with the role it's stupid.

NeonZephyr - Archosaur · January 2014

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

\
I find unusual builds particularly interesting and fascinating despite me usually talking in favour of certain "stereotype" builds (eg. pure magic Clerics). I like arguing/debating over builds and discussing with people but despite the way my posts may be, I don't look down on people who decide to follow unusual/hybrid builds. Sometimes I get to learn some interesting things through these debates. I'm fairly sure some people that read my Venomancer posts think I'm some pure magic AA preacher/elitist~ but I'm not like that. I just like debating.

I'm kind of the same, I'm proud to be pure magic and I also like debating =P

My friend has a HA/LA claw sin and he rocks on it, sure it's unconventional but if he can as the OP say pull his weight then no drama at all.

I used to be almost full LA on my cleric before i restated for r9. My heals we're surely enough to keep any squad alive, keeping wep refines up to not pess anyone off, I gained a lot of survivability which made leveling pre 100 really enjoyable and the low level PVP was interesting.

Totally agree with most hybrids being more on the pricey side for optimal success but haters are going to hate regardless of if you threw a heap of coins into it or not, whoever's a proud successful hybrid props to you, and don't let sheep get you down.
Play your toon how you want in the gear you want.

Kristina_t - Heavens Tear · January 2014

Domethies - Raging Tide wrote: »

my friend was a aps psy, i guess sparks and stuff are useless for them but he seemed to enjoy plaing it.

Honestly, I have nothing against hybrid builds. That one just struck me as funny since its way more than just sparks he wouldn't have been able to use with another weapon. So I got this funny picture in my head of a psy twitching things to death smacking them with their ball b:chuckle

Domethies - Raging Tide · January 2014

SakuLv - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So he went in (cleric was putting BB) after 2-3 hits barb died and i tanked the boss (first time did pretty OK i think )

Before he left i check his gear, he had all aps gear (like bm should) and fist +12 refined
he could not take aggro at all from my sin (+6 refine on wep)

These are some interesting points. In the past ive only ever had 1 aps barb solo an instance for me. It was bh51 on my sin and the barb came so close to dying from just 2 groups it was unreal. As for the parts that ive quoted, in lunar excluding last boss i can tank all bosses on the bh path in human form using aps, even without hitting i can withstand more than 3 hits im sure, and grats for your successful first tank as a sin

Gear wise i went with the cardboard cut out 5aps sin gears, except for legs with are HA T2 instead of LA, my claws are +10 and my highest refine on gear is +4 and i can normally hold aggro pretty well just using those. However, if i cant hold aggro like that, i can put on my more tanky ha gear and go tank like a normal barb. i think this is the part other aps barbs cant or prefer not to do.

In all honesty i only went aps due to the lack of help i would get with trival bosses such as, not sure on the spelling, bu lao in heaven or even the mutated bosses in the morai chain, just get a bit of bp and im good to solo almost anything.b:surrender still prefer squads though not as boring

Edit:Misscherie, if you have a lvl 100 on rt id happily tank some things for you,

Cinderball - Raging Tide · January 2014

Personally, I don't see nearly as much build discrimination compared to even a year ago. The community on RT is not nearly as negative towards my HA sin as it was in the nirvana days. I used to get comments all the time about my build failing because I wasn't 4.0 aps. These days, I just get questions and a bunch of duel requests. xD

Salari - Raging Tide · January 2014

Cinderball - Raging Tide wrote: »

Personally, I don't see nearly as much build discrimination compared to even a year ago. The community on RT is not nearly as negative towards my HA sin as it was in the nirvana days. I used to get comments all the time about my build failing because I wasn't 4.0 aps. These days, I just get questions and a bunch of duel requests. xD

f:bike

freygin · January 2014

I think it's because if you're hybrid, you could be wasting the potential of your class compared to if you follow the more common build, sure you gain the advantage from the hybrid build you choose, but you could be throwing a lot more.

But I guess it doesn't matter now especially for pve since gears nowadays are more than enough to finish most instances, so you could build your char as your heart desires b:chuckle

Longknife - Harshlands · January 2014

Because hybrid builds often spawn from a desire to be different rather than a logical plan.

For example if you're a DD (Wiz, archer, Psy) there's absolutely zero reason to be anything but pure damage. The benefits you gain from magic or dex simply curbstomp those that vit would provide. Only classes that should be encouraged to experiment with vit are support classes.

Metalpuritan - Sanctuary · January 2014

I think today, the way things are today, hybrid builds, or unusual builds, will become more common, we now have 152 extra stat points to throw around and maybe more on the way.

We could very well have light armor clerics today that do not even sacrifice anything they had 2 months ago. Pending us getting even more stat points with further reawakenings we could very well see very powerful heavy armor clerics, wizards,venomancers and psyichics who are every bit as deadly as any of them would have been 2 months ago before this latest expansion.

This latest expansion changed a lot f things about the game, ther is now strong division between level 90 players, those who have reawakened and those whoa re on their first time through, they are completely different worlds, at lvl 90, a reawakened player is every bit as strong as any level 100 player is, all decked out in their endgame gear and whatnot, while the level 90 player on his first time through is wearing just the TT90 and likely has low refines and no doubt, not even half the attack strength and in many cases not even half the defenses.

The addition of extra stat points just add to further change and makes it so that we can now make new builds, not really new it has all been done before of course, but new in the sense that now we can make them actually work and work good too without sacrificing the basics of our classes.

I will personally, not be going the route of any kind of hybrid, I have always liked being a glass cannon myself.

However, if we get a full 76 points for every mew reawakening I might be tempted to play around a bit. At ten reawakenings, in theory, we could have an extra 760 stat points to play with. I am good to go to do anything today as I am right now, the heals are quite sufficient as a pure magic cleric today. But in the future, what if? I mean, if I have an extra 152 or more stat points to play around with, who says I can't do what I want with them, I won't be losing anything after all, I mean, I will still be the cleric I am today, but now I have extra stat points I didn't have 2 months ago.....

I think, with all the changes the game just underwent, it is a good time to stop and think, or...rethink the way things are, they are very different now then they were a month or so ago. Changes to the very core of the game have been made in a way that almost hides the changes, masks them. I think it is time to re-evaluate old ideas...

WannaBM - Archosaur · January 2014

Dont worry too much about what others say. Besides plain ignorance there can be many psychological factors including but not limited to:

-Hating APS in general because they blame it for "destroying" the game.
-Feeling inadequate because they feel you threathen them in their role as DD.
-Feeling inadequate because they can only tank, while you are allround.
-The realisation they could have been so much more than only a tank, but its easier to trash talk you than to change their build.
-The general human way of thinking: everyone who thinks or does differently is an idiot and should be crucified. Homosexual, Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Socialist, Capitalist, APS barb. Always the same thing all over the world ever since humans are there.

If you play your APS barb for a while, have proper equipment and you do well, it should change though. When i started being an APS barb, life was tough. I was 4APS +7 or something, i couldnt APS and hope to hold agro most of the time and if i could, that meant the squad was so weak we'd not get anything done anyway. Besides that, all the prejudiced nabs in squad would make squad play difficult and unpleasant and i could not discuss tactics and hope they would do anything different to make things work.

Half a year later now, 5APS +10 and everyone got to know me. The damage output is enough to keep agro from the weaker DDs. Those that i cant keep agro from usually can tank themselves. They should be able to tank themselves because the majority of tiger barbs cant hold agro from such DDs either anyway.
Most of the time noone cares about who has agro. Everyone is OP for PvE content these days. And in the rare cases that the strongest DD in squad is not capable of tanking, many people got used to playing with me and now know to give me that first 1 or 2 seconds to gain initial agro. To HF on my spark instead of the sins. For sins to not use their "almost sure crit for 8s" skill. etc.

Burnout - Harshlands · January 2014

If you're not a Cata barb, why the hell wouldn't you be a hybrid? It's arguably bad for 1v1 pvp, but if you have an extra 400 million coins to buy gear from APS farming, you'd probably win anyway.

To be fair though a full R9rr Str barb can outdps APS in most situations anyway, and rocks in PVP as well.

WannaBM - Archosaur · January 2014

SakuLv - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Anyways, we tele in and first thing what Cleric ask is- how far you gonna pull
he didn't answer
We were like standing there for 2 mins o.o
Then seeker was like- Ok ill try to pull.. he did it pretty OK..he set up vortex and said to barb- pull that next line
So the aps barb went in..and died (i was thinking he might be HA tt90 or something)

Then we got to the part to kill 1st Lunar boss, seeker already said he cant tank them
Cleric again ask the aps barb- are you ready to run in? Then at last he spoke- i cant tank

On that moment i was on sin in that squad and said- oki lets improvise , since u took the spot as tank run in and take aggro
So he went in (cleric was putting BB) after 2-3 hits barb died and i tanked the boss (first time did pretty OK i think )

2nd part on Lunar we did very slowly , group by group
Then again came part of boss, Hountry (something) Queen lol
Yet again we stand 2min...awkward ...anyways i run in first (tanked queen pretty ok)

and the aps barb left after BH boss..and squad leader raged ;D lol

Before he left i check his gear, he had all aps gear (like bm should) and fist +12 refined
he could not take aggro at all from my sin (+6 refine on wep)[/COLOR]

Bad example. Any barb should of course have HA with him and swap when needed. You should do lunar with me, its one of my favorite instances because it is so perfect for an APS barb. I do full pulls if the seeker can handle it (thats the perfection of lunar, the pulls are made exactly the right length for VT-AD-vac) And i tank all the bosses in APS gear. (the other perfection of lunar, both the first and last vile are ok to do standing, but strong enough to feel like a challenge)
+12 not holding agro from a +6 sin means hes not G16 ? Im G16 +10 and G16+7 sins are about equal in dmg output.

ovenusarmanio · January 2014

I think a lot of people hate on APS barbs because they are incapable of pulling and nobody really expected them to tank the bosses anyway, they are usually brought in as pullers and fail utterly at it. Many can tank the bosses but not the large pulls. That's where barbs shine, except when they don't. It's the primary reason I get annoyed with aps barbs. I've met only a single APS barb that didn't do stupid stuff like attack only one mob during a pull, leave actually tanking the pull to someone else, and then run around claiming they tanked the pull. That drives me up the wall. Plenty of classes can tank the bosses but traditional barbs can usually soak up damage in pulls decently even in average gear. Even if the amount they can pull depends on the gear.

WannaBM - Archosaur · January 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I think a lot of people hate on APS barbs because they incapable of pulling and nobody really expected them to tank the bosses anyway, they are usually brought in as pullers and fail utterly at it. Many can tank the bosses but not the large pulls. That's where barbs shine, except when they don't. It's the primary reason I get annoyed with aps barbs. I've met only a single APS barb that didn't do stupid stuff like attack only one mob during a pull, leave actually tanking the pull to someone else, and then run around claiming they tanked the pull. That drives me up the wall.

What do you consider tanking the pull ?

Pulling, invoking and then allowing the squad 20s to take over with BP seeker + BB. ? Yes, that is what we should be able to do.

Keeping agro from the seeker ? Not even remotely possible unless its a G15 seeker. Vortex is seriously OP. APS barbs are normally demon while most others are sage. Sunder-geddon does twice the damage. Still, even if i do sunder-geddon and my buddy HFs exactly at the right time and i then follow with all my other AOE skills, the seeker will end up with agro 10 seconds later or so. Obviously a vit barb will do worse in every possible way, an STR barb might do some 10-15% more dmg on those follow up attacks, but it wont even nearly make up for my demon sunder-arma advantage. Only way to tank better is to be a demon full str barb.

ovenusarmanio · January 2014

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

What do you consider tanking the pull ?

Pulling, invoking and then allowing the squad 20s to take over with BP seeker + BB. ? Yes, that is what we should be able to do.

Keeping agro from the seeker ? Not even remotely possible unless its a G15 seeker. Vortex is seriously OP. APS barbs are normally demon while most others are sage. Sunder-geddon does twice the damage. Still, even if i do sunder-geddon and my buddy HFs exactly at the right time and i then follow with all my other AOE skills, the seeker will end up with agro 10 seconds later or so.

Being able to run in, grab aggro on everything, so the seeker and cleric can setup bb. A lot of them aren't able to do it. Don't expect them to keep aggro from the seekers. edit: Seen a lot of them dying pulling to the seeker. And then the seeker end up doing everything anyway. Also seen a lot of them join as pullers when they aren't any seekers, when in actuality they can't pull. And the whole squad ends up going group by group. Most of these aps barbs aren't +10 anything. IDK I've just had a lot of bad experiences with APS barbs, but i'm always willing to let one prove me wrong.

WannaBM - Archosaur · January 2014

I guess thats also a factor. If you are a sucky barb, you are just that, a sucky barb.

If you are a sucky APS barb, its easy for people to link your suckeness to the fact that you are APS.

The same is of course true for other hybrid builds.

Come to archosaur to let me prove you wrong

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · January 2014

**** like APS barbs need 300mil+ refines/shards to pull off well

Because you'd need +7 full G16, 2 +10 weapons, 2 sets of +7 or above ornaments and srs sharding to pull off a 3 vit barb if you wanna go full leeroy pulling

The last APS barbs were from back when they had 8K HP due to using partially OHT gears and LA orns, not the 30K standing R9rr+10 vit stone monsters they can be today

ovenusarmanio · January 2014

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

I guess thats also a factor. If you are a sucky barb, you are just that, a sucky barb.

If you are a sucky APS barb, its easy for people to link your suckeness to the fact that you are APS.

The same is of course true for other hybrid builds.

Part of it is the build though. In order to make that build work, you need better refines. A sucky barb with a lot of hp is often able to make it to the cleric/seeker even in slightly below average gear because of the vit. They usually have to devour the bosses and let the bms tank, but BMs and sins often tank when talking about the same gear and refines anyway. That's why a lot of people look down on them. I don't think they should, even though my experience has been mostly negative. I have met a good APS barb before, I know it's perfectly doable. Just as I have met several good vit clerics. But having to get better gear to do one of the main roles of the class is a limitation of the build, that while easy to overcome with decent refines, is still nevertheless a part of the drawbacks of that build. The criticism is perfectly fair. A lot of hybrids aren't told this and then wonder why people dislike them.

Gnip - Raging Tide · January 2014

I believe it has more to do with the barb being unable to meet the expectations of certain members in squads. Be it gear or they just play suck. b:chuckle

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · January 2014

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Being able to run in, grab aggro on everything, so the seeker and cleric can setup bb. A lot of them aren't able to do it. Don't expect them to keep aggro from the seekers. edit: Seen a lot of them dying pulling to the seeker. And then the seeker end up doing everything anyway. Also seen a lot of them join as pullers when they aren't any seekers, when in actuality they can't pull. And the whole squad ends up going group by group. Most of these aps barbs aren't +10 anything. IDK I've just had a lot of bad experiences with APS barbs, but i'm always willing to let one prove me wrong.

My sin has 16.5k hp with a barb buff (r9rr), and can do everypull in lunar. An aps barb should be able to out perform me with similar hp/defenses. If anything they were just bad barbs. I've seen too many vit barb fails, str barb fails, and aps barb fails that I just use a buff pill and tank everything myself. The problem isnt the fact that they are purely aps, it's the fact they are too stupid to not work on getting 2 sets of gear. HA g16 helm/chest for hp bonus and +7 refines all over with some decent shards should put a barb between 16-20k in tiger. I've seen full LA g15 barbs tank those pulls.

Man - Raging Tide · January 2014

Because rank 8 recast and rank 9 gear make it hard for hybrids ~ Only choice left is substandard third cast nirvana.

As for aps barbs a lot of the game updates made them less effective.

Why does everyone hate hybrid builds?

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