Power creep

hellwingwatlz · December 2013

Hi ppl, this is my first thread, hope it ends well. b:shocked
Ive played others mmorpg out there before playing pwi. Something I noticed on every game's upgrade that it make me unhapy and make me lose interest on the game. So I thought that it was part of the business until I found this video:
http://youtu.be/Bxszx60ZwGw
Personaly right now I feel that the game is entering on a big slide down. Dont be fatalist, Im not saying that the world will end. I feel like the developers are running out of ideas and giving us power creep, somehting that will make us loose the interest on the game, as I already felt in other games untill I quitted.
What do you think about power creep? will you go to the top of the top? Become unkillable and kill everyone in one hit? Soloing every dungeon for the items and become more and more billonaire? There were many goals on mmorpg, but it seems everything is pointing to power and more power.

waiting response. I wont answer nor critizise your opinions. I just wanna see if ppl feels like me or I just change my way of playing these games.
Regards,
b:bye

krisnda · December 2013

Wow... How many times have we seen this vid on the forums? (I suspect that they got most of their views from us)

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple · December 2013

Krisnda wrote: »

Wow... How many times have we seen this vid on the forums? (I suspect that they got most of their views from us)

LOL because it's SO accurate. I described it in depth in my Reviving the Game thread. Certain un-named peeps still continued to ignore common sense and make useless rants with no data.

Sadly, I think the petition died because it timed out. We were getting close too. I'll wait until we see what the new expansion brings.

Derako - Dreamweaver · December 2013

Krisnda wrote: »

Wow... How many times have we seen this vid on the forums? (I suspect that they got most of their views from us)

This should be a red-flag for you people if its being passed around on the forums so much...

LodeJunior - Archosaur · December 2013

Well, obviously in a p2w game, how to entice people to pay? to win!!

ovenusarmanio · December 2013

Derako - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This should be a red-flag for you people if its being passed around on the forums so much...

Krisnda is a player, same as you. As I am I, forum mods are just player volunteers.

@OP

Also worth taking a look at based on PWI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
^ This is basically my issue with the way nation wars is setup. One thing i would do is remove weapon when you pick the flag, and disallow squads. No group of players should have a basically automatic victory against others. Victory should be earned on the battlefield, although they should have a major advantage. Certain weapon procs actually punish newbies for even trying. That's just nuts. b:shutup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFU4tjMndi4
^ And this sums up why I feel the early game is in desperate need of an overhaul, and why I would disable FF until midgame. The early game is in desperate need of some kind of a solution to make people actually do it. So that the first few days with this game aren't meant with oppressive loneliness, frustration, and confusion unless you're willing to read lengthy guides. >>

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2013

ooo i need to see this when i get home, looks interesting

krisnda · December 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Krisnda is a player, same as you. As I am I, forum mods are just player volunteers.

Thanks. And for reference, I'm not a "people," I'm a cat. ><

Azura - Lost City · December 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Krisnda is a player, same as you. As I am I, forum mods are just player volunteers.

@OP

Also worth taking a look at based on PWI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
^ This is basically my issue with the way nation wars is setup. One thing i would do is remove weapon when you pick the flag, and disallow squads. No group of players should have a basically automatic victory against others. Victory should be earned on the battlefield, although they should have a major advantage. Certain weapon procs actually punish newbies for even trying. That's just nuts. b:shutup

I don't agree. In my opinion what they should really do is to change purify, or change it to something else, because it is stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFU4tjMndi4
^ And this sums up why I feel the early game is in desperate need of an overhaul, and why I would disable FF until midgame. The early game is in desperate need of some kind of a solution to make people actually do it. So that the first few days with this game aren't meant with oppressive loneliness, frustration, and confusion unless you're willing to read lengthy guides. >>
Completely agreed... This game has nothing to impress you at the beginnning. Well, actually some people get sold by the amount of personalization you can do to a char. So far I haven't seen a game with this much personalization.

This game kinda needs like an intro, like a cinematic (but something that is real, not like those commercials they do, specially the ones they did for nw >_<).

pale blue

ovenusarmanio · December 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

pale blue

I was more thinking along the lines of how some people said purify was great and balanced in TW/equal geared 1vs1s. I'm actually not all to certain of that, but the majority of complaints about it were not in those areas. So I guess it must be true, without a r999 caster for myself I can only go by evidence presented to me. Even though it causes obvious problems in something like nation wars in which people of all different levels of skill, gear, and playtime are competing against one another. A change like that would keep most of the real integrity of the proc since you could still use it all the other scenarios in which it is not so bad. It would also require a reliance on others to defend you no matter the class. It would also have the added effect of not gimping casters completely, since they could use it to defend their teammates, in tw, pve, pvp etcetera without issue.

This is actually the case in every other capture the flag type game that I have played online. And this is the first game I have personally played in which you were allowed to do pretty much anything you wanted while having the flag. Since the whole idea behind capture the flag is to force you to work with people in your team. Alas, that OFC opens up a ton of other problems unique to PWI as nw is kinda shoehorned in rather than the game designed around it... So maybe it isn't the greatest idea, and ofc there those rare 1v1 battles because the rest of your side and theirs is afk leechers. But IDK there just has to be a better way than what we have currently. I do pretty well in nation wars on a lowbie, don't get me wrong. But I also am not a new player. :P

edit:
And yeah there commercials are very misleading and when peopel realize this game is nothing like the commercials, I'm sure we actually have lost a few players to that. Although to be fair, probably most of them would never have played anyway. And yes, a cinematic would probably help a lot. The personalization I think does get people to spend a couple of days on the game, but I think most leave when they start running into bosses and caves they run into that they can't actually challenge. It's incredibly dull to solo grind with no one to talk to for hours, or to have a BH run by a level 100 while you stare at their backside because they kill too fast for even an arrow to go off. I've been there done that plenty of times to know.

Azura - Lost City · December 2013

You know Venus, I don't think grinding solo is really the problem. A while ago I was playing a new game which of course had a lot of new players it being new. However, almost everything could be done alone, exept dungeons. Even though I was there alone doing my own stuff, I still liked the game because there was a good story behind, and the quests weren't so tedious. Quests were just the way they are in perfect world, they ask you kill x amount of monsters, get x amount of items from that monster, and stuff like that. However, I was never asked to kill something over 10. Most of the time it was like kill 5 of these monster, or get 3 of these items which is dropped by that monster. So, you don't get a change to get bored, and you continue progressing in the story. That's what kept me playing.

ovenusarmanio · December 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

You know Venus, I don't think grinding solo is really the problem. A while ago I was playing a new game which of course had a lot of new players it being new. However, almost everything could be done alone, exept dungeons. Even though I was there alone doing my own stuff, I still liked the game because there was a good story behind, and the quests weren't so tedious. Quests were just the way they are in perfect world, they ask you kill x amount of monsters, get x amount of items from that monster, and stuff like that. However, I was never asked to kill something over 10. Most of the time it was like kill 5 of these monster, or get 3 of these items which is dropped by that monster. So, you don't get a change to get bored, and you continue progressing in the story. That's what kept me playing.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if that wasn't all there really was, but I haven't been able to get decent lowbie squads together at a decent cost in a long, long time. It's not so much that they are dull in and of themselves. It's just that that it becomes very dull due to that lack of human interaction and the fact that is pretty all there is to do period. The instances are there, but you're not going to find as squad for them. Most likely all you do is watch some other person rush through it. Often times, nobody talks. And part of that is the players themselves to be sure. But part of it is also a design flaw in how early game is currently implemented. Obviously there are enough people that don't mind spending all their time alone doing quests and just exploring that we haven't hit rock bottom yet. But still, I'd think the majority of people who download an mmo would do so because they want to play something that is massively multiplayer. This game is different from the one that you described, and that because it is older. Back when this game first started. Solo questing was good enough, because you met people. You made friends. Sometimes you'd challenge a dungeon together. The quests were meant to get you further immersed into the bulk of the game and to help facilitate interactions. That doesn't happen in this game anymore. So new players are kinda on their own for a while. And i don't think the majority sticks it out. b:surrender

Actually you do see this happen in other older games but most of the ones that survive do something to fix this problem whereas pwe continues to ignore it. And whether or not someone plays a game is decided on their first impression. And this games first impression is that it's DOA, even though it still has a decent number of 100+ people to interact and have fun with and isn't as depoulated as it looks at the start. b:surrender

Evalria - Sanctuary · December 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

It's incredibly dull to solo grind with no one to talk to for hours, or to have a BH run by a level 100 while you stare at their backside because they kill too fast for even an arrow to go off. I've been there done that plenty of times to know.

Quoted for truth.
This is basically what I'm experiencing on a almost daily basis while online, like so many others. f:shame
Wish it wasn't the case and people wouldn't be so upset about the game all the time from everything anymore and go on a quitting "game is dead" spree... There are still some things left around to find joy in. It is not all lost and damned, just that its got the potential to be so if the direction we are all heading in is ye olde Ghost Town.

Just my two cents, though.

SHIMBERLY - Heavens Tear · December 2013

It's not the company it's the people like you guys who buy stuff from it,they just make the unlimited items for you dumb a sses.

Unholly - Morai · December 2013

Seeing as we are Posting EC vids guess this one is probably relevant to PW and power creep:

Extra Credit: Microtransactions

Boomz - Harshlands · December 2013

i'll keep this brief:
As a person who pvps way too much, I know the mechanics for every class very well. Skipping a lot of detail your too lazy to read, I can say without reservations that if purify for casters is removed from the game (at the current state and direction that pwi is going) that casters in pvp such as myself will never have a shot against equally geared people of other classes. The only way that purify should ever be removed (and don't yell at me for this because it is true) is if god of frenzy is removed. God of Frenzy is too strong as it (mega power creep is there + even more in the future as numbers get bigger) is and if melee classes keep that, casters can't possibly escape the brutal beat down in close range without an equal or stronger substitute. Many will argue, "oh you can just badge of courage and holy path away" or something like that, but any seasoned pvper with knowledge in greater depth of pvp will laugh at you because a caster like myself will say "ok i just used my genie and now i don't have any protection left (unless i pot) and any melee class can just run up to me/tele to me and kill me cause every single melee class has either a super-speed skill or a teleport skill (or both)."

edit: no purify was fine in the old days when numbers weren't as big and only sacrificial strike was out because people could survive, also only sins had that ability, not every melee class.

Brillance - Raging Tide · December 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree with you if that wasn't all there really was, but I haven't been able to get decent lowbie squads together at a decent cost in a long, long time. It's not so much that they are dull in and of themselves. It's just that that it becomes very dull due to that lack of human interaction and the fact that is pretty all there is to do period. The instances are there, but you're not going to find as squad for them. Most likely all you do is watch some other person rush through it. Often times, nobody talks. And part of that is the players themselves to be sure. But part of it is also a design flaw in how early game is currently implemented. Obviously there are enough people that don't mind spending all their time alone doing quests and just exploring that we haven't hit rock bottom yet. But still, I'd think the majority of people who download an mmo would do so because they want to play something that is massively multiplayer. This game is different from the one that you described, and that because it is older. Back when this game first started. Solo questing was good enough, because you met people. You made friends. Sometimes you'd challenge a dungeon together. The quests were meant to get you further immersed into the bulk of the game and to help facilitate interactions. That doesn't happen in this game anymore. So new players are kinda on their own for a while. And i don't think the majority sticks it out. b:surrender

Actually you do see this happen in other older games but most of the ones that survive do something to fix this problem whereas pwe continues to ignore it. And whether or not someone plays a game is decided on their first impression. And this games first impression is that it's DOA, even though it still has a decent number of 100+ people to interact and have fun with and isn't as depoulated as it looks at the start. b:surrender

With some players having an FB19, and all the others as you progress - you have for as long as I have played, at least, had a way to socialize and learn how squads interact.

With no new players coming on the game for 2 years, if a new player does start playing, he's going to very lucky to find enough random new players like himself, to want to do the instance in nearby towns.

Even Town of Arrivals for the TT quests and grinds seems sparse compared to days past.

The only thing they need is people! *Dare this ghost say it.* LIVE BODIES!

And, a more massive and dedicated body of real world extraordinarily high-income people to actually play it, meaning logging in more than just for TW and NW.

They need to attract new players, and if they go for the 97% commonly called 'the masses', they need to overhaul how they run the game on a sustainable profit per sustainable player basis.

Honestly, looking back over my experience with this game, the very BEST time I had EVER was the Low Level game; and, listening to older players over the years, it seems like those are the BEST EVER memories they have too.

To me, as a middle class normal human that likes MMOs, the only problem this game has is finding millions of people that can afford to spend thousands of real dollars/pounds/euros/whatever to simply keep up, and once I find that out, no matter how much I want to stay, its inevitable that over time I will succumb and become another ghost.

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

Interval combined with sin/BM stunlock is/was way more of a problem for casters than GoF. This is why we got Purify on our weps. Because all sins/BMs were doing was keeping stunlock up long enough to APS a caster to death and it just was not any fun for the casters and made playing a sin/BM pretty much easy mode. GoF on sin dags just amplified the problem.

tbh, removing int set bonuses and making it so it's only possible to get one int add-on per Nirvana/r8r piece + nerfing some sin skills might have been enough. BM skillset might also have to be looked at, but that would remain to be seen.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2013

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

The only way that purify should ever be removed (and don't yell at me for this because it is true) is if god of frenzy is removed.

seems fair nuff >>

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · December 2013

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

i'll keep this brief:
As a person who pvps way too much, I know the mechanics for every class very well. Skipping a lot of detail your too lazy to read, I can say without reservations that if purify for casters is removed from the game (at the current state and direction that pwi is going) that casters in pvp such as myself will never have a shot against equally geared people of other classes. The only way that purify should ever be removed (and don't yell at me for this because it is true) is if god of frenzy is removed. God of Frenzy is too strong as it (mega power creep is there + even more in the future as numbers get bigger) is and if melee classes keep that, casters can't possibly escape the brutal beat down in close range without an equal or stronger substitute. Many will argue, "oh you can just badge of courage and holy path away" or something like that, but any seasoned pvper with knowledge in greater depth of pvp will laugh at you because a caster like myself will say "ok i just used my genie and now i don't have any protection left (unless i pot) and any melee class can just run up to me/tele to me and kill me cause every single melee class has either a super-speed skill or a teleport skill (or both)."

edit: no purify was fine in the old days when numbers weren't as big and only sacrificial strike was out because people could survive, also only sins had that ability, not every melee class.

Meh I know it usually take pwe a hell of a long time to fix/change something, but seriously its been WAY too long since this post

I do agree that it shouldn't be removed, but acting like GOF is as oped as that proc... is just... plain wrong imho. (edit) Do NOT get me wrong yes gof is a powerful proc, but it isn't in as much need of a change/removal as the purify proc.... at least that's definitely my opinion on that matter.

At least with gof proc you have to meet these criteria:

1. Be able to survive long enough until it procs, meaning you have to close the distances. (Granted it is true that you casters also need to survive long enough for the proc to activate... you still don't see melees going in and easily soloing 20 people, thanks to a ridiculously cheap proc. In other words even with GOF... you can still lock them down under easier circumstances than locking down someone who's overpowered enough to let that purify proc activate a ridiculous amount of times. )

2. You HAVE to be lucky enough to get a random lucky hit in to kill your opponent(s)... a caster doesn't have to rely on that anywhere near as much as a melee.

I still hold the belief that if we're in the same gear, if you can one shot us (assuming we both have the same debuffs on us/as well as buffs on us.. or at least close enough to it, as some classes have self buffs that cant be put on anyone else) we should be able to do the same to you under those circumstances... and without gof we would never be able to do that. (I am NOT SAYING that casters one shot end game melees left and right... but I do believe it is at least possible under the right circumstances without having to rely on a proc... whereas a melee would likely have to rely on gof to proc to kill you casters.)

---

Meh I am so thinking I just stated pretty much what was in that thread.

---

yay for a bit of a derailment

---

As for the original topic, I agree that they need to heed those warnings in those videos, I for one sadly can not see them heeding that warning, unfortunately they do not seem to really care about the longevity of their game.

---

Balancing the game can be really hard to do, especially since a few people will feel that a few things slipped through the cracks unnoticed. (In some cases they are NOT wrong, but getting a games developers to listen in a timely fashion is NO easy chore.

)

ovenusarmanio · December 2013

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

-snip-

Yeah, I don't think it's necessary or even helpful to change it when the problem with it is so limited in scope. Other pvp activities don't pit veterans against noobs for their ability to farm gear. Nation Wars needs some tweaks or noob cannons so that newer players have a small chance of winning against all classes if they team up and coordinate well. So that they have a reason to want to immerse themselves further into gear progression. PVP isn't fun when you have 20 people attempting to kill just one, but nothing they do matters because any effort is automatically trashed. And the thing is you can solve that without unbalancing the rest of NW, TW, and PK. Add a noob cannon to the buff NPC eg the weapon in theater of blood is randomly given to a sub 100 player, purge buffs upon equipping the flag and disable all speed skills, disable weapons entirely when picking the flag. There are really all types of things they can do to say the flag which is still the majority of battles, to make it something that will get all different types of people hooked onto pvp and wanting to improve. Rather than just getting frustrated at the power imbalance in a spectacular and first hand way, and deciding they just will not bother with it. Nation Wars should be fun enough for new and old players that people actually want to pvp. And that's not just better for them, it's better for vets who get more new blood into their tw factions and more challenges in PK, and it's better for PWI if more people will find pvp fun because to really participate a person is probably going to want to speed it along with cash. Getting new people actually wanting to spend cash, rather than feeling forced to and resenting the idea of it, is good for everyone.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver · December 2013

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

i'll keep this brief:
As a person who pvps way too much, I know the mechanics for every class very well. Skipping a lot of detail your too lazy to read, I can say without reservations that if purify for casters is removed from the game (at the current state and direction that pwi is going) that casters in pvp such as myself will never have a shot against equally geared people of other classes. The only way that purify should ever be removed (and don't yell at me for this because it is true) is if god of frenzy is removed. God of Frenzy is too strong as it (mega power creep is there + even more in the future as numbers get bigger) is and if melee classes keep that, casters can't possibly escape the brutal beat down in close range without an equal or stronger substitute. Many will argue, "oh you can just badge of courage and holy path away" or something like that, but any seasoned pvper with knowledge in greater depth of pvp will laugh at you because a caster like myself will say "ok i just used my genie and now i don't have any protection left (unless i pot) and any melee class can just run up to me/tele to me and kill me cause every single melee class has either a super-speed skill or a teleport skill (or both)."

edit: no purify was fine in the old days when numbers weren't as big and only sacrificial strike was out because people could survive, also only sins had that ability, not every melee class.

Dude this is a garbage arguement. Anytime I see an +12 HA mystic 1 shot a r9rr+12 bm with a g16 mdef cube neck, using Luckybreak+natures vengence+absorb soul and EP, this game is highly unbalanced in favor of casters. AN HA MYSTIC 1 SHOTTING A +12 BM! That should not be possible. I cant even 1 shot casters of equal gear as my wep (+10 an over) without using a combo and several hits. And wizards take the cake, so dont start with me about procs. If a caster is packin that kind of firepower, you dont need purify, you wont even get a chance to use it.

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dude this is a garbage arguement. Anytime I see an +12 HA mystic 1 shot a r9rr+12 bm with a g16 mdef cube neck, using Luckybreak+natures vengence+absorb soul and EP, this game is highly unbalanced in favor of casters. AN HA MYSTIC 1 SHOTTING A +12 BM! That should not be possible. I cant even 1 shot casters of equal gear as my wep (+10 an over) without using a combo and several hits. And wizards take the cake, so dont start with me about procs. If a caster is packin that kind of firepower, you dont need purify, you wont even get a chance to use it.

Video or this didn't happen.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2013

sometimes i think pple forget these guys are chinese.
the translator is just a small hair follicle of the company, not something u want yourself to send a msg to PWE to send to a translator to send to the local devolopers, we all know how degraded a message gets in the telephone game.
if u want to get to them youll need to use chinese >.>

Burnout - Harshlands · December 2013

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dude this is a garbage arguement. Anytime I see an +12 HA mystic 1 shot a r9rr+12 bm with a g16 mdef cube neck, using Luckybreak+natures vengence+absorb soul and EP, this game is highly unbalanced in favor of casters. AN HA MYSTIC 1 SHOTTING A +12 BM! That should not be possible. I cant even 1 shot casters of equal gear as my wep (+10 an over) without using a combo and several hits. And wizards take the cake, so dont start with me about procs. If a caster is packin that kind of firepower, you dont need purify, you wont even get a chance to use it.

That isn't a one-shot, it required sparking + 2 seconds casting nature's vengeance + channeling absorb soul.

If the BM was self buffed, using magic marrow, and the mystic was sparked, I could see an absorb soul easily charm bypassing him if he was anywhere under 100% hp. But that isn't really a one-shot when you have 5+ seconds to see the combo coming, it's more the fault of the BM for not reacting.

ovenusarmanio · December 2013

Since when is using a combo a one shot? f:ponder

Brillance - Raging Tide · December 2013

Not to mention an HA Mystic is not quite as magicly powerful as an Arcane. They cant be and still meet the requirements for the heavy gears. In a traditional sense, its the weakest Mystic you can build when it comes to offense. Its the most resilient too when it comes to Physical Defense, but its a limited 'specialist' build not commonly seen.

Raziyal - Archosaur · December 2013

Im waiting till the new expantion.... seeing what happens.

Kinjeto - Raging Tide · December 2013

Derako - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This should be a red-flag for you people if its being passed around on the forums so much...

I'm starting to wonder if the Captain of the Titanic is actually listening. Derako. Really I am. b:laugh

blacks · December 2013

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

Krisnda is a player, same as you. As I am I, forum mods are just player volunteers.

@OP

Also worth taking a look at based on PWI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
^ This is basically my issue with the way nation wars is setup. One thing i would do is remove weapon when you pick the flag, and disallow squads. No group of players should have a basically automatic victory against others. Victory should be earned on the battlefield, although they should have a major advantage. Certain weapon procs actually punish newbies for even trying. That's just nuts. b:shutup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFU4tjMndi4
^ And this sums up why I feel the early game is in desperate need of an overhaul, and why I would disable FF until midgame. The early game is in desperate need of some kind of a solution to make people actually do it. So that the first few days with this game aren't meant with oppressive loneliness, frustration, and confusion unless you're willing to read lengthy guides. >>

who gives a **** about removing the weapon when you have the flag or squads in the battle field..how about removing nirvana from the forge system so the dungeon is once again farmable..instead of adding alll the best items in the game as possible prizes from nw why not make different prizes instead. and maybe balance the whole war so people who are not rank 9 or s3 nirvana dont get shot 25k up their a$$

ovenusarmanio · December 2013

blacks wrote: »

who gives a **** about removing the weapon when you have the flag or squads in the battle field..how about removing nirvana from the forge system so the dungeon is once again farmable..instead of adding alll the best items in the game as possible prizes from nw why not make different prizes instead. and maybe balance the whole war so people who are not rank 9 or s3 nirvana dont get shot 25k up their a$$

I'm glad that nirvana is dead. Nobody really misses nirvana, they miss the profit. Because the instance is still there. That profit was unfairly distributed and they had to adjust the game just to give casters a chance. In addition to the class based discrepancies, their was a lot more gear shaming back and elitism back then. When nirvana died, the entire player based enjoyed a better gear standard, and increased ability to farm their own gear. I hope that nirvana stays dead unless it undergoes a major overhaul.

As for the weapon thing, that is one way they can add more balance to the whole war for the reasons I already stated. They don't necessarily have to take away all of those people's gear advantage, they could just do small tweaks to adjust for skill since all different levels of experience and gear are competing against one another.

Power creep

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