Trying to decide between sage/demon for an alt cleric

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

Yeah. This is a bit awkward.

Basically, I made a second cleric on another account. It's going to be a vit/mag build with a g16 Nirvana set at +6 with the exception of a +10 hat thanks to the orb code. Pretty much going to use it exclusively for random alt TWs and some PVE stuff.

So...I got to culti and it basically comes down to this for me (because I am a cheapass and would literally only get the cheap skills on an alt of a class I already have so **** like IH/res/etc. is a no go):

A. go sage for sage vanguard

or

B. go demon for demon purify

Admittedly, sage vanguard is cheaper and easier to find than demon puri, but I've played sage clerics before and the thing that always annoyed the hell out of me was lacking chi due to purify costing chi. On the otherhand, sage vanguard is absurdly useful, especially on a lower geared cleric. b:surrender

opkossy · December 2013

Sage vanguard + (free) master li + (free) cloud eruption/chi siphon + Purify that still costs chi but is covered by the above

vs

Demon Purify + um.... hm.... no real way to counter the whole vanguard thing without spending coin on not-so-cheap skills

When you only consider the cheaper options and want to look at pure utility, not much of a choice, really. f:gone

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

I'm not really concerned about chi in pve instances really since I can just spam CE. It's TW where I need to be using genie for AD/expel mostly that the lack of chi comes into play. b:surrender

But I guess, tbh, it doesn't matter so much since it's an alt.

Desdi - Sanctuary · December 2013

In that kind of situation, I might have chosen Sage as well. I prefer Demon in TW because I can chi up fast with buffs even after I die but if we're not going to consider these skills then I'll probably choose Sage.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · December 2013

TW and pve? Sage for convenience

NottLie - Dreamweaver · December 2013

I prefer demon, those ppl that say that demons dont have good skills dont know nothing
All the benefits of being demon:
+2% critic rate(demon metal mastery)
Skill that debuff target for -30% metal def(wield thunder- thats the one i like more)
Aoe more often( siren kiss,razor have cd reduced + 1000 points on my vision)
Tempest now can freeze for 8 seconds
Stream demon ( heals u + 100% pdef) vanguard dont heal u, i prefer recover my hp + a def bonus than only a def bonus that wont save me if my hp is low anyway
Demon sleep/paralize dont cast debuffs in yourself(you dont need to purify yourself after use this), others debuff have lower time on you
Ress faster(i can see alot of situations which is better than a long range)
Aoe heal now heal ALOT MORE
Purify dont need chi
Wellspring +20% chi ( very good to build chi)
Thunderball now do more damage in last time(sins suffer, good to make charm ticks/help finish hp of someone)
Edit: I forgot the best skill ! Demon arrow! Yes demon arrow, got a ridiculous chan and its the faster way to me to kill psy/wizards/clerics i just press 1 and 1 arrow, 2 arrow, 3 arrow, 4 arrow(normally the psy/wizard/cleric is died here) You just spawn and spawn dont giving time for the person do nothing
Im pretty happy with my demon cleric, and i wont change my culti even if someone paid me.
Demon > sage

opkossy · December 2013

NottLie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I prefer demon, those ppl that say that demons dont have good skills dont know nothing
All the benefits of being demon:
+2% critic rate(demon metal mastery)
Skill that debuff target for -30% metal def(wield thunder- thats the one i like more)
Aoe more often( siren kiss,razor have cd reduced + 1000 points on my vision)
Tempest now can freeze for 8 seconds
Stream demon ( heals u + 100% pdef) vanguard dont heal u, i prefer recover my hp + a def bonus than only a def bonus that wont save me if my hp is low anyway
Demon sleep/paralize dont cast debuffs in yourself(you dont need to purify yourself after use this), others debuff have lower time on you
Ress faster(i can see alot of situations which is better than a long range)
Aoe heal now heal ALOT MORE
Purify dont need chi
Wellspring +20% chi ( very good to build chi)
Thunderball now do more damage in last time(sins suffer, good to make charm ticks/help finish hp of someone)
Edit: I forgot the best skill ! Demon arrow! Yes demon arrow, got a ridiculous chan and its the faster way to me to kill psy/wizards/clerics i just press 1 and 1 arrow, 2 arrow, 3 arrow, 4 arrow(normally the psy/wizard/cleric is died here) You just spawn and spawn dont giving time for the person do nothing
Im pretty happy with my demon cleric, and i wont change my culti even if someone paid me.
Demon > sage

You have an opinion and that's wonderful!

... Now reread the first post and realize that our OP already has a 105 cleric, is only making this cleric as a cheap alt that won't have high-end gear and will only have cheap skills, and the main concern is about easier chi from demon purify vs the extra usefulness of sage vanguard since our OP has already tried both cultis.

After doing that, then come with a new post that has that in mind.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · December 2013

0.3 seconds is significant but not nearly big enough to create a tremendous difference.

It reduces a 2.5 second channel (0.4 aps) + cast to 2.2 seconds (0.45 aps), which makes for a 8.69% decrease in attack rate.

Arrowwz - Sanctuary · December 2013

I'd say go sage Eo since it's an alt, I myself prefer demon(cause DEMON IS THE BEST) lol jk
But imo just go sage, the buffs will be nice for you. demon buffs on the other hand It doesn't give me chi all the time but sometimes it gives me tons of it. b:laugh

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

You have an opinion and that's wonderful!

... Now reread the first post and realize that our OP already has a 105 cleric, is only making this cleric as a cheap alt that won't have high-end gear and will only have cheap skills, and the main concern is about easier chi from demon purify vs the extra usefulness of sage vanguard since our OP has already tried both cultis.

After doing that, then come with a new post that has that in mind.

Kossy, I

you.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · December 2013

OPKossy wrote: »

Sage vanguard + (free) master li + (free) cloud eruption/chi siphon + Purify that still costs chi but is covered by the above

vs

Demon Purify + um.... hm.... no real way to counter the whole vanguard thing without spending coin on not-so-cheap skills

We go back and forth on this and I'm sure Eoria has her own opinion already, but many consider the demon the better chi manager. Sage has Li's technique and some faster channeling skills like Wellspring while demon has Wellspring (20% more chi), zero chi cost on purify, 15 chi for plume shell (down from 30) and the vanguard/magic shell combo. With my demon cleric I can get 4 sparks after death by spamming my vanguard/magic shell faster than my genie can regen to cloud erupt.

In addition, don't count Mo Tsu's out. It can be used twice as often as a sage's Li's Techinque. In a way, this makes up for the defence difference of sage vanguard because it prevents two spark skills from being used against you (like Barrage and Blade Tempest).

One thing that stuck out was the vit-mag build. Plume Shell will get drained faster if sage (with less mana pool and more being absorbed). Sage IH would really help if you could afford it and make up for the loss of heal power.

Despite me arguing that demon's are the better chi managers, I think sage would be the better choice. The decreased cooldown on purify is nice. Faster WS are "meh" but at least they're something. In TW I spend alot of time sleeping and freezing people. See a Bm running in for the stun+HF and get a freeze on him while he's at range then lol as he gets blown up by ranged DDs before he can do anything. In mass pvp these seals are better sage because we're not so much a "dd". In 1v1 I'd argue for demon since we seal then attack or kite, but not in mass pvp.

MissCherie - Harshlands · December 2013

If you never did play sage then try it, if you did then you probably know the difference.

Since your main is demon then maybe go sage on the alt for fun.

Desdi - Sanctuary · December 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

snip

The only skills in question are Sage Vanguard Spirit vs. Demon Purify according to the OP though b:surrender no plans on getting other skills.

..but yeah. I'd choose Sage definitely after giving it more thought. I was a bit hesitant at first but then I figured that if you use Sage Vanguard Spirit a lot on others to give them the defence boost you'll get some chi back so that should help with the Purify eating your chi.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · December 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only skills in question are Sage Vanguard Spirit vs. Demon Purify according to the OP though b:surrender no plans on getting other skills.

Ah, I wasn't sure if it was just 1 skill from each culti or the "cheap" skills. Guardian Seal, Razor Feathers, Tempest, Rez, and IH are all pretty expensive so I figured don't account for those but there are a few decently cheap skills around.

Vanguard, Magic Shell, Plume Shot, Great Cyclone, Plume Shell, Wellspring, Metal Mastery, Silent Seal, Chromatic Seal, Dimensional Seal, Elemental Seal, and Purify all can be found for under or around 6m and might play a roll in culti decision. Would be good to get an OP response on this.

If we're really just asking sage Vanguard vs demon Purify then go sage Vanguard. Once you've been alive for 60 seconds support clerics really don't have too much chi troubles. We spend most our time healing, rebuffing, and (I like to) using our debuff seals (chromatic, silent, and pdef and mdef debuffs). Only 2 of those require chi and aren't a priority. Plume Shell requires chi but max only 15 chi every 30 seconds. Because of this I'd say demon purify is nice but 95% of the time the chi saved won't make a difference.

Ahira - Lost City · December 2013

Sage is probably the best option for the OP. My main is demon but I made a sage cleric for support. Whilst demon and sage are both very well balanced in their own right, if its only support specific i would chose sage. Its just a chi management issue really- aside from that buffs/purify/heals are better.

But i think in tw people are just thankful if they get any cleric support- first thing on their mind probably isnt going to be "i wish this EP was demon/sagef:worry"

Desdi - Sanctuary · December 2013

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

But i think in tw people are just thankful if they get any cleric support- first thing on their mind probably isnt going to be "i wish this EP was demon/sagef:worry"

^ true o.o

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver · December 2013

Ahira - Lost City wrote: »

But i think in tw people are just thankful if they get any cleric support- first thing on their mind probably isnt going to be "i wish this EP was demon/sagef:worry"

b:laugh

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Vanguard, Magic Shell, Plume Shot, Great Cyclone, Plume Shell, Wellspring, Metal Mastery, Silent Seal, Chromatic Seal, Dimensional Seal, Elemental Seal, and Purify all can be found for under or around 6m and might play a roll in culti decision. Would be good to get an OP response on this.

Vanguard+Magic Shell - 4-6m
Plume Shot+Great Cyclone - lol, just farm from fb89
Plume Shell - 1.5-3m (I actually have a Demon Plume Shell sitting around someone gave me)
Wellspring - 3-7m
Metal Mastery - 1-3m
Silent Seal - Haven't seen this for sale in ages, but probably 7-8m.
Chromatic Seal - 7-8m
Dimensional Seal/Elemental Seal - Also haven't seen for sale in ages, but probably 3-5m.
Purify - 10-15m

But HL book market is full of jews (including me).

Other books for the lulz-

Razor Feathers - 45m+
Guardian Seal - 45m+
Spirit's Gift - 12-15m if sage, can get up to 20m if demon
Siren's Kiss - 8-12m
Tempest - 45-50m
Stream of Rejuvenation - 12-15m
Ironheart Blessing - 20-30m
Revive - 30m-35m
Thunderball - 2-5m
Wield Thunder - 12-20m
Chromatic Healing Beam - Not quite sure, but I want to say around 12-15m

**** adds up though and I'd rather invest the money it'd take to buy skills into other things. I'd probably only ever have sage vanguard if I go sage with it and probably only ever have demon purify+plume shell if I go demon. But I'm pretty much leaning towards sage atm.

Ahira wrote:

But i think in tw people are just thankful if they get any cleric support- first thing on their mind probably isnt going to be "i wish this EP was demon/sage"

^This xinfinity.

Alice_Nyan - Dreamweaver · December 2013

I really love my demon cleric and i play most pve stuff. (I am 102 even forum still shows 74 .-.)

Plume Shot: less channel, so i can hit faster.
Plume Shell: less chi, so i can use chi for other stuff.
Razor Feathers, Siren's Kiss: less cd, so i can use more often.
Silent Seal, Chromatic Seal: i dont need purify myself, that means more time to attack. It really helps me on Warsong to solo pavs (I can do any less water).
Ironheart Blessing: recovers mana too, its really great.
Wellspring Surge: gives chi, but i dont really like this one, i rather get chi with ih and dont spend any mana.
Revive: faster revive = safer. I can do my jog and get out quickly.
Purify: i hated when i didn't have this skill. It's terrible when you need to purify someone and has no chi. So it's one of best demon skills.
Chromatic Healing Beam: it heals more, which is great.

About sage Vanguard Spirit i think it's great too but there is other ways to get more defense for while. You can always use some genie skills, apo or even Plume Shell
and Wings of Protection to protect yourself from any kind of damage. You will also have Stream of Rejuvenation that gives you defense + heal. So if you are in doubt only between demon purify or sage vanguard i would say "go for demon"

Btw, i got my demon purify for 12m, so isn't that expensive.

Eoria - Harshlands · December 2013

My main is a 105 full r9rr +10 demon cleric and I've played well-geared sage clerics before. I think I know the pros+cons of full sage/demon skillset already. ijs.

Unholly - Morai · December 2013

b:surrender

I would just go the simple route and just say: I have a demon cleric, sooo my alt shall be sage.

Trying to decide between sage/demon for an alt cleric

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