Dealing with higher refines in mass PvP

Jaabg - Sanctuary · November 2013

Just wanted to get some feedback from the people.

Have you noticed that you are being one shot/hurt more in NW, and TW (i know still to early but hope to keep this alive)?

Thanks OPKossy for opening this thread again.

I wanted to discuss how people react to seeing a sudden surge in people's gear upgrade. Previously i would come across 2~4 fights out of 30 fights during NW where i would get one shot, or ganked very quickly. Now considering that more people had chances to upgrade their gear (not talking about the merits of the decision, just the result, which is more people are higher refined now), how do you survive in the battle field?

Do we need different strategies? Stay with the same strategies and just wait until our gear is at par?

For some of us, getting NW gear is the progression of our gear. The problem occuring, getting one shot and killed quickly means we exit battles far quicker than previously, this may result in a slight to significant drop in the tokens we get. With the new card system being launched, this may end up with us being auto attack food everyone until we reach that level.

How would we bridge that gap?

My story: I was tt70 when people were tt99. I was tt99, when people r9+10. I was tt99+3 when people became r9+10 to r9 3rd cast+10. I got r9 3rd cast and i jumped ahead on the curve due to merchanting. Now I was in the middle of refining to +10 and +12 on my gear. I was going to use the free orbs to hit 19k hp mark. The result is that there are just so many more people hitting me for 7~15k. Previously it would be charm tick, hp pot tick. Now it is death because when 3~5 people do it, hard to live compared to only one person doing it before. This sudden surge in refines was not a "normal" in the progression of the curve, that is why I am having issues in trying to find out ways to level the playing field again.

How do people plan to modify their gear progression keeping in mind that card system will be implemented soon, and because they got a boost on refines, they can use that money saved up to buy the cards when they hit the market.

If people have answers like "I quit" or want to discuss the points of the orbs being given out to some, other abusing it, some not getting it, go to the main thread. I am more interested in seeing how those who choose to play will act following this "free gift" and future update coming.

WannaBM - Archosaur · November 2013

Lets make a list of costs for an endgame toon:

R9.3: 2 billion
rings,amus, cape, helm: 1billion
10 items +7: 0.5 billion
10 items +10: 1 billion
10 items +12: 4 billion
24 end game shards: 1 billion

So thats a total of 10b.
Worst cases have probably gotten 1b worth of orbs, most have gotten between 100 and 300m worth of orbs.

Yes, it is significant, but no, it does not totally overturn the game.

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide · November 2013

Well if people were already +11/12 it doesn't matter if they got 1k +10, orbs it doesn't affect to them. Now the lower level people that got them I'm sure they will save them until they got their endgame gear so no real boost there. I think this only a real benefit to a small few and in no way breaks the game. Does it suck if you missed it and no bans are handed out? Yes. Does it mean all the servers should get rolled back and everyone lose what they got? No. PWI will make it's money with the new expansion so they aren't worried. I think this has been a bit blown out of proportion and doesn't have as much impact on the game as some people make it out to be.

opkossy · November 2013

Edit: Alright just keep this general so I can actually leave it alone.

Viktorian - Archosaur · November 2013

i dont plan to modify my gears progress. Altho i doubt im rly one to talk on this kinda thing seeing as i had no plan to get r9r3 from the start. too much coin and time for me to get r9. so that left the very farmable g16 +12. if anything this orb thing gave me a boost. as to tactics...i gotta stay silent as when it comes to pvp im below noob. altho i will say this. our class usually gets nothing from these type of things anyway. were still here and still an important class. any1 ever seen any1 say in wc LF Barb+cleric+psy or archer for lunar? sure we may have to change tactics to reduce the dmg we take, as we had to do with mage r9r3 weapon proc making stun locking harder. someone will find a way to do it and pvp life will continue

WannaBM - Archosaur · November 2013

Viktorian - Archosaur wrote: »

our class usually gets nothing from these type of things anyway.

Pff always those poor BMs.....

My BM buddy who had 3 accounts for 9 orbs and then 6 orbs from the other 2 actions now has full +10 R8r. 20k total HPs and marrows to rival my tiger defences. Hes frickin OP and i feel obsolete b:bye

(Ok not really obsolete, we still are a happy sunder-HF-arma team. but you get the picture. Hes like a barb now with his 20k HPs, but its standing right up with 5 APS...)

XCableX - Archosaur · December 2013

So I'm a bm just like you. My gears is... kinda like yours. And uh, from what I've seen I've always died when I had like 3-5 people on me (Dealing a fair amount of damage). If you get ganked quickly, it probably means that they don't like you or they know you're good, but that's besides the point.

I can't say for your server, but I sometimes get one shot. But that sometimes only happens when I get purged, debuffed or HF'd so hard then yeah. The other time is... when you have this Psychic that's full +12 and full diety that completely destroys me if I'm not paying any attention to him or if I just can't see him and uses his surroundings well (WannaBM probably knows very well >_>)

Do you use any magic defense charms during NW? I only use them when I know I'm fighting a respectable(even though their attitude isn't), strong, and valuable opponent. If everyones like that in your server, you might have to use them constantly.

Okay, I probably am not answering your question but I'll leave the above up there.

When I have to deal with NW with strong players(with +10 refines);

I spam everything in terms of defense Pots, Elixirs, Defense Charms, Genie usage. If they don't have an Archer(I still use it with them around lol) or Veno, I use Dew of Star Protection to stay longer in the fight (It also makes people hit you which grants them to stand still - with IG on, you can deal damage but chances your opponent will run from you or just ignore you). I still use Roar like always. 85% of the time I end up being the first target, so I'd proceed to the run and stun method. Most of my NW tokens gains is from taking a lot of damage, maybe just provoke them to deal hits to you, but you have to have your defenses ready and make sure who you're fighting (T-target method).

I used to really think that when I got my R9T3 Gear and had it +10 and Vit stoned I could be able to just run around in TW and stun and deal damage instead of traditional Run+Stun. It can be the case for a 1v1, but not when you have like 5-20 people on you, you're pretty much dead unless you can IG it off.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · December 2013

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

24 end game shards: 1 billion

So thats a total of 10b.
Worst cases have probably gotten 1b worth of orbs, most have gotten between 100 and 300m worth of orbs.

Not even on topic, but as a point of correction. Vit shards go for over 50m on my server, JoSD/Deity for around 170m. 24 x 50m = 1.2b, but 24 x 1.7 is 4.1 bil.

Oceans are still around 65m (35 gold "sale" x 2m=70m but can find them for 65m.) I heard people got 30-200 by glitching the site. Thats 2b-13bil. I know others who got 3-9 by not glitching but did it on more than 6 accounts for about 2.5bil profit. ijs, 2-13 bil difference in refines is pretty huge.

I also see people saying it didn't effect people who already were +10. Using a Tisha stone you can try for +11 and if it fails you drop to +9 then use one of your (seemingly) endless orbs to +10 again. Repeat. Takes on average 7 tries to get to +11. Takes 11 tries to +12. Many peoples +11 everything then still buy the +12 orb.

As for dealing with these refines. Magic marrow ofc. Magic weapons and axes have the best refine rates so gain the most at high refines. The difference between mag dd and phys dd becomes really obvious at these higher refines.

Blade Tornado. It has a semi invoke of 50% reduced damage, effectively doubling your hp. It gives anti-stun so you won't be caught stunned and at range. 25k hp BMs with mag marrow and blade tornado is difficult even for squads to take down. Especially when squads are so scared of BT the spend more time running away than attacking.

Leaps. These are under utilized. If I charge an archer I know he's going to use a stun to keep me at distance so I have to weigh it out 65% chance of avoiding the stun with a timed leap forward, or use 1 spark and use up my anti-stun? I almost always use leap forward to close the distance on ranged dd because they almost always go for their freeze/stun moves first while I'm range. In mass pvp this allows me to use my anti-stun as I run out, although leap back also allows me to dodge 35% of dd on my way out. Sometimes, I just use leap back as a "pray it doesn't hit me and kill me" last resort move, too.

Bolt of Tyreseus. What, a fist move being amazing in mass pvp? Yah, it slows down the damage you take by alot because it increases their channeling by 50%. Taking hits every 2 seconds vs taking hits every 3 seconds means alot when you have a charm ticking every 10 seconds. It also keeps people in your aoe range. Dead casters do no damage.

Lastly, Blade Hurl. Obvious defensive reasons, although I prefer to save it for offense by disarming a caster so their purify proc. But if you have to use it to save your life (or make an exit) then do what you need to do.

One other thing, actually. I'm constantly have to remind myself to not be so kamikaze in TW. I feel like a backup barb and I should go in and aggro first and get all the attention so my DD's can follow and clean up. Wrong. We have chi issues. Quick in-and-out attacks and staying alive does our squad alot more good then the run in->IG->stun->HF->Die tactics we're used to using. With all the Q.q about how out dated BMs are I think I survive pretty well with 21k hp and 22k mdef, +9 average gear and no Nation War forge gear yet. It does my squad alot more good if I do probing stuns, seals, crowd control, supplement dd, until I can get in and HF and survive. No walking back. No need to rebuild chi cause I just died. I wont always have my apoth in cd.

WangZi - Dreamweaver · January 2014

Sakubatou has great advice there, but then again most bms should already be using those or get in the practice of using those

Just a side note, in my experience, it does feel that more people are becoming powerful, but I think it's a good reminder that we're more of a support class since we're not super high dph or have super tanky skills, so if we're faced with 5+ people who are decently geared + refined (I would say r9rr to be "decently" geared, I know, high standards), I wouldn't expect us to come out on top 1 vs 5 IF those 5 know how to play, if you get what I mean

In my personal experience, I go down fairly quick when I go alone vs a coordinated squad of 5 r9rr +10-12 people, since they work together to take you down, and I don't feel bad because I know I can take them on if it was 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2

Dealing with higher refines in mass PvP

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