Veno vs very endgame psychic

KrzysS - Lost City · November 2013

Hello venos ;3
How would one go about fighting a very endgame psychic, meaning full nw orna/r93s +12 with josd? Even in black voodoo I cannot do enough dmg to kill. Is it just very difficult or does anyone have a trick up their sleeve? b:thanks

Adroit - Lost City · November 2013

KrzysS - Lost City wrote: »

Hello venos ;3
How would one go about fighting a very endgame psychic, meaning full nw orna/r93s +12 with josd? Even in black voodoo I cannot do enough dmg to kill. Is it just very difficult or does anyone have a trick up their sleeve? b:thanks

I'd imagine amp + demon ironwood proc + arcane antimony on an end game veno would destroy a psychic. Out of curiosity, if you purge a psychic, amp it, use myriad and get mdef break.. how much do you generally hit after that?

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · November 2013

Theres several problems when facing these opponents:

-Getting in amp/purge range can be tricky 1v1
-Every hit has a relatively high chance to remove your debuffs
-+12 psychic's high soulforce means youll be sealed by its shield; alot
-They have fast channeled hard hittinc CC skills.

Your best bet might be to get in bewitch to move closer for a purge/amp. Follow it up with a nova to keep the psy sealed. Apparantly purify weapon cant get rid of seals; and the three first skills here wont proc it as they arent actually hits. Unsure about myriad, but with a human form of that to proc (using AD + IG) either m.def or p.def down; itll give you a decent shot at doing some damage for at least one hit and hopefully more.

Adroit - Lost City · November 2013

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Theres several problems when facing these opponents:

-Getting in amp/purge range can be tricky 1v1
-Every hit has a relatively high chance to remove your debuffs
-+12 psychic's high soulforce means youll be sealed by its shield; alot
-They have fast channeled hard hittinc CC skills.

Your best bet might be to get in bewitch to move closer for a purge/amp. Follow it up with a nova to keep the psy sealed. Apparantly purify weapon cant get rid of seals; and the three first skills here wont proc it as they arent actually hits. Unsure about myriad, but with a human form of that to proc (using AD + IG) either m.def or p.def down; itll give you a decent shot at doing some damage for at least one hit and hopefully more.

what
why

Suprprutty - Lost City · November 2013

AD shouldn't be used for IG unless that's the absolute last resort you have but that shouldn't be the case since Fortify requires less energy and has a shorter cooldown. AD uses a lot of energy and has a long cooldown plus you might need that 5 sec immunity for some other occasion.

To the OP; your best bet is to count on debuffs and if you're Demon hope for an Ironwood proc.

Azura - Lost City · November 2013

I think anyone could win, but the veno would have to be pure magic build. It would be harder for the veno to win because she would need some luck so her attacks don't remove any amps the psy may have, and that she won't get sealed too often.

If I were pure magic and I had to fight a psy, I would keep amp as much as possible and wait for ironwood to prok. After it proked I would add extreme poison and use use arcane antinomy.

Desdi - Sanctuary · November 2013

I'll take the freedom and assume you're Demon.
Venomancers generally lack in pure damage so they rely on debuffs to bring down their opponents although debuffs are arguably needed for any class (perhaps with a few class-skill exceptions).

I'd suggest Will Surge. Whist I haven't used it personally, I can see it being useful when you're trying to set up a kill combo and want to avoid the potential seal. Demon Summer Sprint to avoid stuns, especially Soul of Stunning if the Psychic happens to use it.

Your best chance of killing is going to be the well known Demon Ironwood proc + Arcane Antinomy and possibly whatever other debuff you managed to land or have at hand such as Extreme Poison that Azura mentioned.
However, do keep in mind that they have Psychic Will to effectively purify themselves and become immune to physical damage (try to stun to avoid). If they Psychic is smart then maybe they are using physical defence charms too.
I don't know what pet you have though. Pets can tick their physical defence charms but they can also trigger purify proc so they are a little tricky to use against casters. I'd only throw it in for stun(s) to keep attacks at a minimal number.

Otherwise you can try to go for a Demon Parasitic Nova + whatever debuffs (Extreme Poison maybe? Lucky Myriad break?) + whatever skill (probably Ironwood, being the hardest hitting one after Nova) but for this one I'd probably want to have Will Surge active and pray the weapon doesn't proc.

It's also important to Chi Burn and Mo Zun Taunt your opponent to avoid potential triple spark. They also need sparks for Psychic Will, Earth Vector (their main stun) and a couple of other skills they may use. Point is; try to chi drain them to mess up with their skill usage.

Overall, you do have to rely on debuffs a lot and hope your won't trigger purify proc. The fight will indeed rely heavily on luck. Seeing as Psychics have no physical damage (besides the Red Tide bleed) I'd probably throw a magic defence charm here and there.

Minor tiny edit:If Psychic is Sage, they have even more ways to purify themselves off your debuffs. If Demon, you'll probably have an easier time messing around with them provided they don't land a nasty crit on you but this is why you should be chi draining them to death.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · November 2013

@Adroit: It can be tricky cause in a 1v1 scenario the psy will know youre coming. Freezes/stuns/genie skills really does make that tricky. The seals thing is something ive seen myself. As example a r9rr got purify proc during bewitch. She became human again but the seal didnt let go. As well as seal from nova staying on even if nova was the attack that procced it.

@Suprprutty: the reason I said AD isnt purely for the anti stun. If nuking the psy, you dont want every single attack you do to seal you. AD + IG is cause a demon veno would have limited chi, and casting synergy could be tricky as well as most psys seem to open with AoE stuns n freezes wich woukd kill your pet before youd get to use it. AD just adds those seconds for you to attack without being sealed

Suprprutty - Lost City · November 2013

A demon wouldn't use natural synergy, they have summer sprint with a much shorter cooldown and no chi required. They can get anti-stun more often, even more if their weapon procs too assuming veno is r9r3 too. They can also roll for summer sprint + feral then fortify + IG for 22 second of immune, add AD on top of it so 25 sec of immune in total.

Granted fortify runs the danger of the magic debuff and the psy can get a hit in and kill you before IG takes effect but chances are low and depend on your ping I guess.

Truth is OP didn't post a genie though so i'm just assuming they have the basic genie set up most people have. Lost city has lots of sins and stuff around though so maybe they don't have AD to begin with (something like Faith + Expel instead).

Desdi - Sanctuary · November 2013

Whenever Natural Synergy is mentioned, I feel bad because I constantly forget about that skill b:surrender
It's true I rarely ever use it because if I want an anti-stun I'll usually rely on Summer Sprint when playing Demon (which is most of the time anyway).

I do have a Monkey now and it's tankier compared to my Phoenix so I'll potentially have a pet out more often but I still won't see myself using Natural Synergy much, if ever. I even shoved it on the side of the hotkeys I don't use much. I don't think it's a bad skill though.

/offtopic

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · November 2013

I usually dont really consider summer sprint into it because the anti stun is so short. Tho its a good skill indeed (against a psychic I usually use it after theur water freeze skill to get moving again, being sage) also the fact that people pay 28m for that skill on DW makes it a tad li.ited on who have it

Eoria - Harshlands · November 2013

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Adroit: It can be tricky cause in a 1v1 scenario the psy will know youre coming. Freezes/stuns/genie skills really does make that tricky. The seals thing is something ive seen myself. As example a r9rr got purify proc during bewitch. She became human again but the seal didnt let go. As well as seal from nova staying on even if nova was the attack that procced it.

Purify removes everything that can be purified. Bewitch seal falls under unable to be purified. Kinda like how you can't puri SoG or soulburn. Nova seal should be purified unless it hits after purify has activated, which in that case, only the seal would go through, not the freeze.

Anyway.

Use pet to remove SoSt/SoR (make sure it stops attacking afterwards)->debuff to hell->Will Surge->do what these other people have said.

Marengo - Lost City · November 2013

Will surge is compulsory as mentioned. Extreme poison is preferable.
Steal chi as much as you can.
Try not to waste nova and don't let psychic heal itself. It's possible to kill if you stunlock well.
AD proved not too useful in long 1v1 fights. Faith will serve you better, imo.
Pet is useful for stuns only, no aps. I used it to aps a psy only after vigor crush in the very beginning of a fight. If purify spell procs it's not a big deal since I haven't spent all my chi and apo resources yet.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · November 2013

My experience at least makes it seem that novas seal stays for purify. Tho it might be as you say, that the purify procs and then the seal hits. I might be a bit much of a preacher for use of AD. I usually use it as an anti stun as well as damage reduction. And only using one genie for both pve and pvp probably hampers me slightly.

It does however oftenly work, tho it ciukd be more cause of my playstyle.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · November 2013

Virulent Poison genie, Mo Zun, AEU Chi burn, crush vigor = gg no chi 4 u

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · November 2013

This isn't directly part of the discussion but...

Bewitch is special even among unpurifiable debuffs.

Not only can it not be purified, it is the ONLY, I repeat, the ONLY debuff that CANNOT BE AVOIDED with the genie skill belief/faith. That means short of your target being immune to damage (ad, apoth, or sparking), you can always, always break somebody's kill combo wide open using bewitch. Belief, anti-seal, anti-stun, doesn't matter, ignores them all.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · November 2013

That does add a small point to keep ad on your genie at least. As far as sparking goes, Ive hardly ever seen someone spark to avoid bewitch. In addition the range and short channeling can make it hard to spot before its too late. Purging or bewitching after spark is veno 101 at this moment either way. So at least from experience many try to follow it up with fortify/Ad with IG

Noticing that we mostly come up with combos to disrupt here. Maybe someone with better knowledge if psychic pvp could come up with a more likely scenario? Ie one where the psy fights back?

Adroit - Lost City · November 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This isn't directly part of the discussion but...

Bewitch is special even among unpurifiable debuffs.

Not only can it not be purified, it is the ONLY, I repeat, the ONLY debuff that CANNOT BE AVOIDED with the genie skill belief/faith. That means short of your target being immune to damage (ad, apoth, or sparking), you can always, always break somebody's kill combo wide open using bewitch. Belief, anti-seal, anti-stun, doesn't matter, ignores them all.

Well, tactical and mortal reversion could probably be classified as debuffs, and they also cannot be resisted by faith. And bewitch can be resisted with tidal, but you do have a valid point, bewitch is one of the best cc skills in the game.

Suprprutty - Lost City · November 2013

It's a combination of seal + form (being forced into a new form) as forms cannot be purified/purged etc. but I think purify weapons can purify the form but keep the seal? It works in a rather weird way but i think it's neat.

Veno vs very endgame psychic

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