Sage or Demon

Niteshadows - Harshlands
Niteshadows - Harshlands Posts: 583 Arc User
edited November 2013 in Cleric
I want to know which of these two options suit a cleric the best. Don't give me, " Well try both yourself " because I don't have time for those kinds of BS answers. I just want the best choice for both pvp and pve. ty.b:bye
Post edited by Niteshadows - Harshlands on
Do you hate me? Good, that makes for an adequate conversation starter.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
«1

Comments

  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Demon, you're welcome. =)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Honestly I advise you look at the class over here.

    The thing is there is always difference of opinions with questions like this, and really the best answer is essentially what you asked us not to do. (Trying out the class/researching for yourself is the best way to find out which is better for you.) Some play way better on demon, some way better on sage. They both have their finer points.

    When it all comes down to it... it depends on your play style, not anyone else's.

    Personally I agree with bella after looking at the skills, but yea I am sure there are people who feel sage is better... I sure as hell can't speak for everyone. :$
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Demon, you're welcome. =)

    I like sage :D
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Lazy person wants lazy answer. Sage is more defensive, demon is more offensive. There is no 'better' cultivation.

    (That being said, I am rather partial to sage myself, and even made a new 105 sage cleric after discarding my old 101 demon cleric. If you want more explanation, why not look through any of the 10001 threads that already discuss this SAME DAMN TOPIC. Seriously.)

    /thread
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Niteshadows - Harshlands
    Niteshadows - Harshlands Posts: 583 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I like sage :D

    I like what Androit said, but can you explain why?
    Do you hate me? Good, that makes for an adequate conversation starter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited November 2013
    Sage.

    kritty%20sig_zpsp0y7ttsb.png
    Thanks to MikoTenshi for the Avi and Kritty for the Signature.
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You're asking the wrong question and thus you'll get wrong answers.

    Asking "what cultivation is the best" will get you the answer of people's biased personal opinion most of the time. These very same people may also have no clue about the other cultivation other than theirs, very few people get to try both cultivations. That's perfectly fine really but what you should be asking is what each cultivation offers. (not meant as an insult to anyone but just pointing a thing out).


    As someone who had the chance to play both Sage and Demon I find Sage to be more defensive due to longer seals, more damage absorbed from Plume Shell, faster chan/cd on Purify and other things. Demon on the other hand is more offensive due to easier time building chi (my demon cleric builds chi must faster than my sage), various skills that cost less chi or no chi and not getting any debuffs from seal (no slow from using Chromatic Seal).

    With that said, I find them pretty equal in terms of PvE because both perform well but in different ways. A Demon can heal and buff you with extra physical defence all in one but has a longer chan (SotR) a Sage can quickly throw the physical defence buff even when pulling (Vanguard Spirit) but it comes with no heal. That's just one example.

    In PvP, I'd prefer Sage for general PK and small scale group PvP but I enjoy Demon more in TWs as pure support (shorder chan on Revive, ability to give chi to squad members, ability to build chi really fast with buffs after dying etc.).
    In my opinion PK and TW/NW are very different when it comes to being a Cleric as is being support only or being offensive or switching between both. If I had to say overall, I'd lean on Sage but that's just my opinion.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I like what Androit said, but can you explain why?

    I use my alt ep primarily for 1v1s and small pvp (bigger pvp I'll bring my main), and the two skills that make it for me in these cases are sage vanguard and sage wield thunder. Sage vanguard is an absolute life saver with the extra pdef, although demon can stream for the extra pdef.. it is much slower and unavailable in UV mode (which I like to be in almost all the time for 1v1s and such). I really don't know how I'd make it through plume cd against r9rr +12 sins/bms without sage vanguard. The other big one I mentioned is sage wield thunder which allows me to keep me chi up while attacking. Even though demon buffs gain a lot of chi very quickly (as Desdi mentioned), I think it is much better mid-fight to be doing damage/putting pressure on an opponent than standing there buffing yourself over and over. Sage wield thunder gives more than enough chi to spam sog on cd (and have chi left over), so that is really useful. Sage magic shell is also really nice when trying to stack up a ton of debuffs on someone or before waking them up or w/e else.

    I just think sage fits my playstyle better, I rarely feel the need for the extra matk on demon spirit's gift or the metal debuff on wield thunder.. my issue is generally staying alive, and I think sage has an easier time with that.
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Ah well in response to your comments I can say a few extra things.

    I find the one advantage demon always has is higher unsparked damage, due to:

    1) wield thunder's metal defense debuff (30%)
    2) spirits gift gives 100% extra magic attack for 10s

    This increases the metal damage noticeably, and will allow a demon cleric to charm-bypass more easily than a sage.

    A sage probably does comparable or superior dps though, because of magic shell decreasing channeling by 20%. (Caveat: during the first triple spark, a demon will have higher dps because channeling is 25%. After that point, a sage's dps will probably surpass the demon's, because of better chi gain & thus more triple sparks over time.)

    Sages gain chi faster? Yes, in a number of situations sage clerics gain chi faster.

    1) during actual combat (you are attacking)
    -when fighting somebody, 1vs1 or in small groups, how often do you actually stop to spam your buffs? If there are enemies right in front of you, you simply don't have the time to be doing that; you'll be attacking them, or healing. With master li's technique, and the bonus chi on sage wield thunder, sage chi gains often outstrip demon

    2) when sage has a lot of -channeling gear
    -this is a bit of an extreme example, but I can get 7 stream of rejuvenations off inside of 10 seconds if I use my channeling gear and magic shell for the 20% channeling decrease; since sage rejuvenation gives 20 chi each time, I can gain chi back very, very quickly while standing still or when healing a barb, for example

    Demons do gain chi a bit faster still in a couple situations

    1) light squad healing
    -if you are using wellspring surge (gain more chi than sage version) and purify (doesn't use chi whereas sage version uses 20), you'll gain a bit more chi and consume a bit less, even if we factor in master li's technique

    2) squad rebuffing
    -group healing where rebuffs are needed regularly due to purges

    In essence, in tw demon's should, in theory, hold onto their chi a bit better. In practice though, I find that in tw, my sage cleric almost always has full chi. In fact, I usually shoot off a tempest now and then to put that chi to use, instead of staying completely full all the time.

    Demon clerics usually hold onto their chi a bit better. They don't lose as much doing plume shell or purify. In comparison, a sage cleric often saves 1 spark on tempest, and sometimes uses no chi at all doing siren's kiss. Since these aoes are highly situational, demons usually save a bit more chi (which makes sense, because in combat they gain a bit less too).

    About revive: you meant it has a shorter channeling. This is another interesting example of where a skill that usually favors demon starts to favor sage once the sage cleric gets enough -channeling gear. Using gear switch, I personally can revive somebody just as fast as a demon cleric, but with the advantage of 15 extra meters of range. If I use magic shell on myself beforehand, I can do something really crazy, where revive takes less than half a second (really useful when reviving half a squad).

    For a cleric seriously considering solo pvp, I have to point out the one skill that was make-it-or-break-it for me. That skill is vanguard spirit. When a sage cleric gets purged, they can rebuff themselves for an instant 60+100% extra physical defense. This takes under 1 second. In comparison, the extra 100% physical defense for demon is stuck on stream of rejuvenation, which takes closer to 3 seconds to fire off with decent channeling. Furthermore, in violet dance mode (the stance where you can actually kill people who are geared as well or better than you), you can't access stream of rejuvenation. Of course a demon cleric can rebuff themselves too, but their vanguard will only give them 60% defense. I find that this means a demon cleric is much more reliant on plume shell, and if the plume shell gets purged, the demon cleric is in more trouble than the sage cleric would be. Since archers are notorious for targeting clerics, and because archers often purge people they attack, the fact that sage clerics handle purge better is worth noting.

    To conclude, a rephrase of what I said earlier. Demon clerics will likely do more damage and get more kills. A sage cleric will do less damage but survive better.
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Ah true, I forgot about that skill because I don't have my wield thunder as Sage. Cleric was semi-retired a while ago due to no time to give her attention. In fact, right now I only use alts for BH and the occasional TW on the Demon one.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Way to steal my (wield) thunder Adroit. (lol)
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Sage/demon is pretty even on cleric. Just pick whichever you like better.

    Personally, I'm demon for the faster res/no chi cost on purify mainly, but I pretty much only play support cleric for mass pvp. 1v1, I'd rather play mystic than my cleric.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Niteshadows - Harshlands
    Niteshadows - Harshlands Posts: 583 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Ah well in response to your comments I can say a few extra things.

    I find the one advantage demon always has is higher unsparked damage, due to:

    1) wield thunder's metal defense debuff (30%)
    2) spirits gift gives 100% extra magic attack for 10s

    This increases the metal damage noticeably, and will allow a demon cleric to charm-bypass more easily than a sage.

    A sage probably does comparable or superior dps though, because of magic shell decreasing channeling by 20%. (Caveat: during the first triple spark, a demon will have higher dps because channeling is 25%. After that point, a sage's dps will probably surpass the demon's, because of better chi gain & thus more triple sparks over time.)

    Sages gain chi faster? Yes, in a number of situations sage clerics gain chi faster.

    1) during actual combat (you are attacking)
    -when fighting somebody, 1vs1 or in small groups, how often do you actually stop to spam your buffs? If there are enemies right in front of you, you simply don't have the time to be doing that; you'll be attacking them, or healing. With master li's technique, and the bonus chi on sage wield thunder, sage chi gains often outstrip demon

    2) when sage has a lot of -channeling gear
    -this is a bit of an extreme example, but I can get 7 stream of rejuvenations off inside of 10 seconds if I use my channeling gear and magic shell for the 20% channeling decrease; since sage rejuvenation gives 20 chi each time, I can gain chi back very, very quickly while standing still or when healing a barb, for example

    Demons do gain chi a bit faster still in a couple situations

    1) light squad healing
    -if you are using wellspring surge (gain more chi than sage version) and purify (doesn't use chi whereas sage version uses 20), you'll gain a bit more chi and consume a bit less, even if we factor in master li's technique

    2) squad rebuffing
    -group healing where rebuffs are needed regularly due to purges

    In essence, in tw demon's should, in theory, hold onto their chi a bit better. In practice though, I find that in tw, my sage cleric almost always has full chi. In fact, I usually shoot off a tempest now and then to put that chi to use, instead of staying completely full all the time.

    Demon clerics usually hold onto their chi a bit better. They don't lose as much doing plume shell or purify. In comparison, a sage cleric often saves 1 spark on tempest, and sometimes uses no chi at all doing siren's kiss. Since these aoes are highly situational, demons usually save a bit more chi (which makes sense, because in combat they gain a bit less too).

    About revive: you meant it has a shorter channeling. This is another interesting example of where a skill that usually favors demon starts to favor sage once the sage cleric gets enough -channeling gear. Using gear switch, I personally can revive somebody just as fast as a demon cleric, but with the advantage of 15 extra meters of range. If I use magic shell on myself beforehand, I can do something really crazy, where revive takes less than half a second (really useful when reviving half a squad).

    For a cleric seriously considering solo pvp, I have to point out the one skill that was make-it-or-break-it for me. That skill is vanguard spirit. When a sage cleric gets purged, they can rebuff themselves for an instant 60+100% extra physical defense. This takes under 1 second. In comparison, the extra 100% physical defense for demon is stuck on stream of rejuvenation, which takes closer to 3 seconds to fire off with decent channeling. Furthermore, in violet dance mode (the stance where you can actually kill people who are geared as well or better than you), you can't access stream of rejuvenation. Of course a demon cleric can rebuff themselves too, but their vanguard will only give them 60% defense. I find that this means a demon cleric is much more reliant on plume shell, and if the plume shell gets purged, the demon cleric is in more trouble than the sage cleric would be. Since archers are notorious for targeting clerics, and because archers often purge people they attack, the fact that sage clerics handle purge better is worth noting.

    To conclude, a rephrase of what I said earlier. Demon clerics will likely do more damage and get more kills. A sage cleric will do less damage but survive better.

    Ty Aeliah. I was only waiting for a response such as this, I also like Androit's reply as well. Both were very informative. Cheers!
    Do you hate me? Good, that makes for an adequate conversation starter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited November 2013

    2) spirits gift gives 100% extra magic attack for 10s

    150%*


    I have 2 clerics, one demon and the other sage.

    In my opinion and for my play style (support) I see no advantage to be sage.

    Revive? On my sage in TW I literally cannot revive anyone, there's always a demon to ninja me and I end ups to have just wasting time. The 40 meters is a joke in my opinion, what's the point to revive someone that died at 40 meters of me? I won't be able to heal him and he will end to die again, reviving someone out of range of heals is useless in 95% of cases.

    On demon half channeling on revive really make a difference that 3 seconds saved can be use to buff/heal.


    For the chi, on my sage I'm always out of chi (TW) and I end up to need to make the choice of plume shell or purify someone, issue I don't have on my demon. The 0.5 sec cast of sage is awesome, but also a curse in my opinion, since it can be spam it's a constant cost of chi.

    Sometime a purify could be more a life saver than a heal and if you just died and got rev/ress you can't purify ASAP on sage cause you need chi, while on demon you can purify all the time even when you are out of chi. For me be unable to purify cause I have no chi is a real turn-off.


    Also demon can give chi and mp, which for me personally is not a big deal, but for people like barb and other class they seems to enjoy getting free mp/chi.


    Both sage and demon have a skill that give a p.def bonus for a few seconds, sage with VS and demon with SoR, it's debatable which one is better, I personally prefer have a p.def bonus on a healing skill than on a buff skill.


    So in resume purify, plume shell and revive are the 3 skills that really important for me and sage make me go crazy cause of the chi cost (purify/plume shell) and slow chan (revive). On demon I never needed to use chi apo pots or CE, but on sage I did needed CE and chi apo pots, which I hate cause that mean my apo pots cd is wasted and I cannot use a IG or w/e if I need to save myself when I'm in trouble, same with genie.

    But my experience is purely as support cleric (PVP/TW), I don't metal mage at all. I would never metal mage at all unless it's a 1v1 and I personally think clerics in 1v1 are boring and if the cleric is skilled and have the 100 skills than sage or demon will not really matter cleric should won easy anyway.

    Everything I say is for PVP/TW, for PVE in my opinion sage or demon is not a big deal, any skilled cleric could do all PVE in game with skills lvl10.

    In the end it's not really sage or demon that matter the most, but it's how the cleric is skilled (which unfortunately not a lot are) , if you are good than you can do a great job on both culti, if you suck then it doesn't matter, sage or demon won't make you better.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Yeah, as an average-geared, TW-support cleric only, I can see how you would think demon is better for you, and for yourself, you'd be right. As I clearly mentioned, demon holds certain advantages like handling chi better, until the cleric gets enough -channeling.

    The r9rr gear set actually has quite a bit of channeling, and there is also magic shell to consider. I have videos showing how fast I can rez somebody... faster than a demon cleric can, in fact. I have videos showing me going from 0 to full chi in just over 30 seconds, which is faster than a demon can gain chi. Given this, I'm rarely at a loss for chi, while still maintaining the extra benefits of the sage skill effects (for example, while being able to purify back to back sometimes accidentally wastes chi, on other occasions it is the best thing ever to allow an ally to escape a stun lock).

    In other words: at lower gear levels in TW and lower levels of pve, the chi-saving and mana-giving support of demon will be very handy indeed. I remember how lvl 90 barbs loved the fact that my ironheart gave mana. However, I feel that sage is favored the better your gear gets, when chi becomes less of an issue, nobody cares about how much mana you can give (autopotters, people!), and vanguard spirit starts making a big difference in your survivability against any physical-damaging opponents.

    It might be easier to be support on demon, but in my opinion, a sage gives better support. A dead cleric saves nobody, lol.
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    It's all up to the cleric's playstyle. Neither is better than the other. This isn't like we're comparing sage psy and demon psy where the sage side wins immensely over the demon side. Sage/demon cleric is pretty much about equal and it ends up just being what you prefer.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands
    Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands Posts: 7,231 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Yeah, as an average-geared, TW-support cleric only, I can see how you would think demon is better for you, and for yourself, you'd be right. As I clearly mentioned, demon holds certain advantages like handling chi better, until the cleric gets enough -channeling.

    The r9rr gear set actually has quite a bit of channeling, and there is also magic shell to consider. I have videos showing how fast I can rez somebody... faster than a demon cleric can, in fact. I have videos showing me going from 0 to full chi in just over 30 seconds, which is faster than a demon can gain chi. Given this, I'm rarely at a loss for chi, while still maintaining the extra benefits of the sage skill effects (for example, while being able to purify back to back sometimes accidentally wastes chi, on other occasions it is the best thing ever to allow an ally to escape a stun lock).

    In other words: at lower gear levels in TW and lower levels of pve, the chi-saving and mana-giving support of demon will be very handy indeed. I remember how lvl 90 barbs loved the fact that my ironheart gave mana. However, I feel that sage is favored the better your gear gets, when chi becomes less of an issue, nobody cares about how much mana you can give (autopotters, people!), and vanguard spirit starts making a big difference in your survivability against any physical-damaging opponents.

    It might be easier to be support on demon, but in my opinion, a sage gives better support. A dead cleric saves nobody, lol.

    You need to don't forget that you have a really different playstyle, I never watched your PVP/TW videos, but from what I heard you are far from playing support.

    You are speaking like a demon cleric is a one shot compare to a sage cleric.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You're asking the wrong question and thus you'll get wrong answers.

    ^^ this
    As someone who had the chance to play both Sage and Demon I find Sage to be more defensive due to longer seals, more damage absorbed from Plume Shell, faster chan/cd on Purify and other things.

    None of those is why I chose sage for my first cleric (pve). Plume shell I've practically forgotten about, and haven't bothered with sage purify.

    You may get a heal + defense boost with Stream of Rej, but with sage you can defense boost and heal w/o getting aggro even in UV mode.

    I'm able with my sage cleric to get through most BH RBs w/o pots or charm. (●Spirit's Gift)

    My second cleric is 95 and am planning on going demon with it. The only class I've doubled the culti on is Barb. Most if not all culti choices are pretty well balanced. -It's more up the the player to decide.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver
    SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver Posts: 400 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    My playstyle has always been a little different than that of a normal cleric so may not hold up to what you want done with your cleric. I went HA from level 1 and wanted to be as "tanky" as possible. The natural choice for me was sage and I haven't really though twice about demon. However in saying this the culti choice is extremely balanced.

    I like sage for the vanguard spirit (I hit around 32k pdef bully buffed), sage wield thunder for the chi and sage IH for the added little bit of healing (not that it is needed). Sage tempest and sirens kiss both have a chance to cost 1 spark less which can also come in handy.
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You need to don't forget that you have a really different playstyle, I never watched your PVP/TW videos, but from what I heard you are far from playing support.

    You are speaking like a demon cleric is a one shot compare to a sage cleric.

    No, don't generalize like that, lol. Clerics are fairly tanky in endgame gear (assuming they build their character right) no matter which cultivation they have. However, sage is definitely more tanky. I'll explain why I think so below.

    Here is a fairly common situation that comes up in NW, TW, group pvp, 1vs1 pvp, all the time... lol.

    -archer/dders in general spot cleric
    -dds starts dding on cleric
    -cleric throws in plume shell to survive dmg and keep supporting allies
    -cleric gets purged (probably from the archer)
    -????

    Fill in the blank.

    Either cultivation can progress directly to our other 79 skills: guardian light (1 spark, 5min cd, reduce all dmg by 60% for 10s), or wings of protection (20 chi, 1 min cd, absorbs a few hits then disappears). These are great counters... however as you can tell by looking at the cooldowns, they often aren't going to be available (particularly if you've already given wings of protection to an ally, which is common in group pvp situations like NW or TW). There is also triple spark, followed by heals. However in some situations you may not have the chi, or you don't want to draw everybody's attention to the flashy triple spark.

    What then?

    You'd probably want to heal or rebuff yourself right away, correct? If your hp is really low, you heal before rebuffing (bonus points if you can heal until plume shell is ready again).

    Ok your hp isn't too low yet, but archer is still hitting you and you have to respond. You've decided you need to rebuff then heal yourself till you can plume shell, kite, or lock down whoever is hitting you.

    This is where vanguard spirit makes such a big difference. You are rebuffing *anyways*, and with sage you get 160% physical defense, whereas with demon you get 60% and a small chance at some chi.

    Yes, we all know the argument that a demon cleric can get the 100% bonus physical defense too. But a demon cleric should know better than anybody the problems with doing so. Why is stream of rejuvenation an inferior place to have to have this buff?

    1) stream of rejuvenation takes a long time; sometimes the buff and heal doesn't arrive fast enough to save you.

    On sage cleric, I often do vanguard spirit > wellspring surge > wellspring surge > charm ticks so I'm back at full hp > kite. On a number of occasions where I went straight for a stream of rejuvenation instead, I died before stream of rejuv healed me (takes nearly twice as long as a wellspring surge after all).

    2) you can't use stream of rejuvenation in violet dance mode

    Demon clerics simply have to go without the 100% physical defense buff when in violet dance mode. This, hands down, makes them squishier than a sage cleric, and more vulnerable to purges.

    3) stream of rejuv's long channel makes it susceptible to being cancelled.

    This is why stream can be a risky option when healing yourself even if you aren't going to die before the heal finishes. Since every attack that heads your way has a chance to cancel your channeling, stream, with a channel twice as long, is at much higher risk of having its channel cancelled than wellspring surge, which puts you at higher risk of dying, and/or wasting more time on a skill than if you'd stuck with wellspring surge.

    Given these problems with using stream of rejuvenation to heal yourself, I imagine most clerics who get purged and can't use plume shell, will be using

    vanguard spirit > wellspring surge > keep doing wellspring surge until it is safe to do an ironheart, kite, plume shell, or lock down enemy.

    Does this sound about right guys? If we assume this is pretty much correct, then it follows that sage gets a lot more physical defense by doing this, much faster. 1 second as compared to ~4 seconds. After you've just been purged, speed is of the essence. You are taking a lot more damage than normal and could die quickly. Therefore, because they can get more physical defense faster, sage clerics are more tanky than demon clerics after a purge.

    I doubt I need to say this again, but clerics are often purge targets! Archers and venos all know that unless the cleric dies, the tank (flag carrier, cata puller, tanky people in general) will not go down, so they target the cleric first. The oldest strategy in the book for group vs group pvp is still one of the soundest.

    KNOWING WHICH CULTIVATION HANDLES PURGE BETTER IS, THEREFORE, HIGHLY RELEVANT to any discussion about the merits of each cultivation. Demon clerics aren't squishy, but sage clerics *are* tankier. Whether you are supporting or going on the offensive, a dead cleric can't do anything.
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    It still just comes down to preference though. Sage Vanguard is probably the sole thing I like a lot better than demon version, but I'm not gonna switch to sage just for one skill. It'd be like going demon on a veno just for the dg on nova.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I love when people post "which is best?" like its an all around answer. Like someone is going to say demon is better in every possible way, shape, form, whether it's pve or pvp, and every skill which is why 100% of people pick demon and there are no sage clerics /sarcasm.

    Most of the important points have been covered. Aeliah is like me in that they don't like giving incomplete answers and so they give very long answer with an abundance of weighed info.

    Here's what I'll add. I'm demon and have been for almost 4 years. My barb's wife is sage and we debated it. There is no such thing as 'demon for damage' or 'sage for support' or that one is better for pvp since demon has many better support skills and sage has many ways to boost their damage/channeling. It just changes playstyle to do those things. I would say sages survive better in pvp, demon's dd a little harder in pvp, but both are very adequate at dd and survivability. I very often will consider sage the better culti all around. It's actually just a few clutch skills that keep me from switching.

    Demon Revive is amazing for both PvE and PvP. I've seen entire squads wipe because the barb took so long to get back to their feet and backup tanks couldn't last without heals for the 7 seconds. In TW clerics who need 5-6 seconds to revive catabarbs (I expect TW worthy clerics to have a bit of -chan gear) leave themselves vulnerable and may lose the catapult before the barb is up.

    I also love cleric's that heal my barb/bm's mp with demon IH. I think people who play casters don't realize that for barbs/bms (tanks) its often only 3-6 skills before our 1.5-2.5k mana pool is empty and we need to pot. I probably go through 8 times the mana pots in the same amount of time playing my barb/bm as I do on my cleric. My point is not that we want free mana, its that sometimes we don't realize our mp pool is already empty and we go to aggro/stun/dd and... nothing. Having mana fed to us keeps us skill spamming and on top of our game. That being said, sage IH is stronger, but not enough to really matter if you stack IHs, which are huge heals over time anyways.

    Wield Thunder + Spirit Gift + Elemental Seal is a decently beastly damage combo for demons. Especially now with Morai skills.

    For sages self debuffs on your seals become slightly chi consuming since you'll usually purify after, whether its dimensional/physical seal or the debuffs from chromatic and silent seal. All in all this is not a chi loss since the skills generate chi and then purify eats it up, but for demons its a chi gain. It may also be a time gain since the need not to purify means you can stack more debuffs/attack before the seals where off. This is somewhat balanced out by sages extended sleep/freeze duration but that also gives their genies more of a chance to recover. Two debates we have often is whether sage chromatic and silent seal's time extension are added after the random value or before. For instance is the value 14-38 seconds (mean 26) or is it 14-34 (mean 24+4).

    Arguments for sage. Sage Vanguard, SoG, sleeps, (a better) Plume Shell, Guardian Light, WoP, a self purify, and IHs and the coup de grace, Purify proc... How is anyone going to kill a decently endgame cleric with 3 shields, def boosts, perma holy path and purifies, sleeps if they get in trouble and can heal themselves for a couple thousand hp every second. With endgame gear many cleric's become harder to kill than barbs and sages are most definitely harder to kill than demons because of sage vanguard.

    Sage Vanguard and Sage Guardian Seal can both be used on barbs during the pull because they're buffs, not heals. This means the barb survives better while he aggros, prior to setting up bb. Also, Sage Guardian Seal gives you a self heal even while you have UVD.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    There are definitely good reasons to be demon. However, I don't like the clerics who try to dismiss sage vanguard as some minor point that doesn't really matter. As I said earlier, it is the make-it-or-break-it skill for me as a pvper and healer in territory war. Sage vanguard spirit is hugely influential in any fight I have against a physical damage dealing character, whether I use it on myself after a purge, or on an ally who is being targetted/has just rezzed. I'd easily say that it is one of my most frequently used skills. Don't underestimate how useful it is!

    Looks like I'm going to have do a video showing all of the nifty tricks my new channeling gear can do to back up some of the points I made earlier, lol. I swear you've never seen a faster revive... even zooming thunder powder caps out at 90% channeling, and I can hit 98% lol. But yeah for most people demon rez will be more useful on average.
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    There are definitely good reasons to be demon. However, I don't like the clerics who try to dismiss sage vanguard as some minor point that doesn't really matter. As I said earlier, it is the make-it-or-break-it skill for me as a pvper and healer in territory war. Sage vanguard spirit is hugely influential in any fight I have against a physical damage dealing character, whether I use it on myself after a purge, or on an ally who is being targetted/has just rezzed. I'd easily say that it is one of my most frequently used skills. Don't underestimate how useful it is!

    I'm not underestimating it. I know it's very very useful as I've played a sage cleric myself, but I just wouldn't go sage for one skill only and I don't recommend anyone else do so either.
    Looks like I'm going to have do a video showing all of the nifty tricks my new channeling gear can do to back up some of the points I made earlier, lol. I swear you've never seen a faster revive... even zooming thunder powder caps out at 90% channeling, and I can hit 98% lol. But yeah for most people demon rez will be more useful on average.

    You're not gonna be TWing in channeling gear though. You also need to factor in the time it takes to deselect someone/select yourself->cast mdef buff->select the person to res.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
    I <3 Subtraction.
    /blatant sig copy is blatant

    105/105/105 obtained! b:cute
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The best question would be what kind of gear is the OP actually going to use or planning to get.

    I'm one of those people who do believe that certain gear and builds effect the cultivation's effectiveness or choices. For example, whilst a Sage Cleric does have ways to increase their channeling speed and achieve fast Revives, you have to consider that a lot of Clerics are extremely squishy if they attempt to use "channeling" gear, don't have channeling gear or can't handle the whole "select self, cast Magic shell, select target" thing etc. in which case Demon Revive would obviously be the winner.

    Side note; I did very few TWs on my Sage Cleric and right now she's retired (will eventually be used again in the future but not now) but I've done a fair amount of TWs as Demon (and still do occasionally). I was a very spoiled Cleric though; my squad was very good at protecting me that I was rarely in big danger and whenever I happened to be (usually was purged) usually an IG/AD/Sutra was enough to let me escape in the back lines and go back to supporting my team mates who were protecting me in the front lines. Because of that, it was rare that I felt like I'm missing Sage Vanguard spirit but a lot of Clerics don't have that (I'm also full support, I don't get very offensive so I rarely face the enemy other than throwing seals here and there).
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • Aeliah - Dreamweaver
    Aeliah - Dreamweaver Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The best question would be what kind of gear is the OP actually going to use or planning to get.

    I'm one of those people who do believe that certain gear and builds effect the cultivation's effectiveness or choices. For example, whilst a Sage Cleric does have ways to increase their channeling speed and achieve fast Revives, you have to consider that a lot of Clerics are extremely squishy if they attempt to use "channeling" gear, don't have channeling gear or can't handle the whole "select self, cast Magic shell, select target" thing etc. in which case Demon Revive would obviously be the winner.

    Side note; I did very few TWs on my Sage Cleric and right now she's retired (will eventually be used again in the future but not now) but I've done a fair amount of TWs as Demon (and still do occasionally). I was a very spoiled Cleric though; my squad was very good at protecting me that I was rarely in big danger and whenever I happened to be (usually was purged) usually an IG/AD/Sutra was enough to let me escape in the back lines and go back to supporting my team mates who were protecting me in the front lines. Because of that, it was rare that I felt like I'm missing Sage Vanguard spirit but a lot of Clerics don't have that (I'm also full support, I don't get very offensive so I rarely face the enemy other than throwing seals here and there).

    Yeah, definitely, I agree with this.

    I'm usually the only healer for an important squad, and so I come under a lot of focus fire, even when I try to hide behind my teammates. For my situation, having a skill that gives me an edge in surviving means more.
    YOUTUBE CHANNEL:
    youtube.com/user/csquaredcsquared

    CLERIC PV GUIDE (complete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1531411

    CLERIC PK GUIDE (Incomplete):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=18027931
  • SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver
    SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,225 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I went sage. That said, there is no true way that we can fully answer your question. Sage has a lot of great reasons for choosing it. Conversely, so does demon. So for me this was a really tough choice. Ultimately, the reason that I went sage is because it seems to be more defensive. But that suits my playstyle. What I did was research the skills myself, and decide which one was better for me...because ultimately, the one that is going to have to live with your cultivation choice is you. One of my friends in game went demon. It suit his playstyle better.

    In pve and in pvp, both cultivation choices have bonuses that are beneficial to the cleric. (As well as the squad if there is one.) Others have already touched on this though, so I won't go into much detail on it. My pvp experience is limited to NW, and duels, so that only goes so far. Still, I do find it fun. Even in dps, sages, aren't exactly lacking. While demon's spirits gift, and demon wield are great moves, something else to consider is that with metal mastery, sages get a 25% metal attack increase, whereas demons only get a 2% hit rate increase.

    Ultimately, you have to decide this for yourself. I wish you well in your choice, and congrats in advance on your celestial choice.
    "Male Player using female toon. Please don't flirt with me."

    Need to see the cleric guide for questions, comments, or concerns? Just copy and paste the link.
    "http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1246011&quot;

    (Ignore the quotation marks. URL isn't allowed, so I had to do it that way.)
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Technically, the increase in crit rate becomes better as you get better gear and more crit rate from said gear. I think someone did the maths for that.

    Spirit's Gift however won't do much when considering sparking (if you're talking about the overall DD of the Cleric) and Wield Thunder giving chi to Sages during combat will allow them to spark more often. Regardless though, Clerics are not exactly taken as DD in squads anyway...

    I don't know about PvP though. As I said I don't go into offence and stay defence/support so I don't know the difference in damage for Sage/Demon DD-wise in PvP.
    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
  • FaceRolI - Sanctuary
    FaceRolI - Sanctuary Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You're not gonna be TWing in channeling gear though. You also need to factor in the time it takes to deselect someone/select yourself->cast mdef buff->select the person to res.

    why not? I TW in channeling gear all the time about .1% or lower of that "all the time" :D. Will be pretty scary w/ 0 cd cyclone ~0chan.

    pl0z make chan revive vid b:thanks, my noob cleric still doesnt have -chan skill :<
    full r999 91% chan wizzy b:kiss

    Current build: pwcalc.com/bf1f46790766e26d
    LuLz: pwcalc.com/20f3fa96ab3c4dc0
  • Desdi - Sanctuary
    Desdi - Sanctuary Posts: 8,680 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The average Cleric is much too squishy with channeling gear though (often crappy refined/sharded gear) and Clerics are one of the priority targets in TW (and PK) because a good support Cleric makes a big difference.

    [SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
    ★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★