Who wins in Psy vs. Seeker/Wizard?

Longknife - Harshlands · October 2013

Posting this because I find the difference in opinion here to be the most mind boggling thing ever.

Seeker and wizard are two of the classes I have the easiest time with in 1v1 fights hands down, and yet I know many people who would claim seekers are strong vs. psy and apparently wizard being strong vs psy is the general concensus on Lost city. As I said, this is absolutely mind-boggling to me, because it implies that some people are having the EXACT opposite results that I'm having. It's one thing if people claim BMs or archers are strong or weak vs psy and I disagree (those match ups feel like 60-40 odds, so still close and doable for both sides), it's another thing if a class I can faceroll is face rolling other psys.

So what's your opinion on the matter? Do you faceroll or get face rolled by those two?

My two best experiences to prove my point?

One involves me ending up in the Thursday tournament alone vs a r9rr wiz with +12 wep, +10 or 12 armor and JOSDs in armor with my r9rr +12 wep and +8 everything else. I finally killed him after a good five minutes, much to the surprise of my faction. My faction had the response of wanting to shame him for losing to an under geared psychic, whereas my reaction was to dissuade them from doing so because I felt like I had the upper hand the entire duration of the fight and that his death was inevitable; I didn't think he did particularly bad at all, just had a bad class match up.

Another? Well....APPARENTLY seeker is the most arrogant class since sin, and I unknowingly announced to seekers on my server that psychic was their weakness. I thought they'd say "oh ok" and accept it just as I accept being weak to clerics, and instead I accidentally threw every seeker on the server into a blind fit of rage to the point where seekers, to this day, hate target the ever living **** out of me. I'm constantly trying to tell them to accept it because this often leads to them targeting me in group PK and dying almost immediately, but it still happens to this day.
A better example is one nation war where I encountered not one, not two, but three well geared seekers who all had something to prove and spent the entire NW stalking me and trying to kill me in a big ctf battle. I was ready to eat my words as they killed me thrice and got me down to three re spawns left, when suddenly I noticed that as I had three re spawns left, all three of them got tossed out of the war; collectively they spent 15 lives to kill me thrice. I killed them five times the amount they killed me as a collective.

I can't help but feel like....Psychic is a class that one shots everything and gets one shot. We know this, so we only scoff and laugh at people who proudly brag about one shotting us, but obviously one shotting is NOT a regular occurrence for every class, so some see it and think "omg I'm good vs this class." And while a barb can royally **** up while fighting a class their strong against and it simply will not matter, psychic fights are fast paced and over in a split second, so all it takes is one fumble or screwup and yes, literally anyone can one shot you. This, to me, seems to be why these two think themselves strong vs psy. Seeker charges at psy knowing a one shot is certainly PLAUSIBLE, but fails to understand that for us, it's not about how much damage you deal, but rather how good you are at actually managing to hit us; something seeker, with its high spike damage, is downright terrible at, whereas a BM with its modest damage is quite good at creating opportunities vs psy and needs only to crit once for a kill, despite their low damage.
Another possible explanation is that with the seeker matchup in particular, both psy and seeker are highly gear dependent. A +12 psy or seeker vs a +10 one are two completely different things; a seeker has massive stat bonuses across the board whereas a psy gets more soul force with better gear, so even though psy is good vs seeker, simply being out geared by one could even the score, thus so many people are of the opposite opinion with the matchup.

But yeah, I was just curious what the general concensus is and whether I'm in the minority or majority here.

trands · October 2013

Personally, I don't really care about 1vs1 situations and mainly look at TW/NW/Group situations. In 1vs1, I fear players, not classes.

Against wizards, I don't really have much problems. It's just a bit long. Wizard has slowed channeling + seal that makes it hard to actually kill. Psychic has most of it's usefull control skills deal low damage. The spark combo is somewhat dangerous, but just got to pay attention. Since I'm mainly considering group, with buffs it's less dangerous anyway.

Against seekers, I do consider seekers strong vs psychics. Why ? In group you don't always see a ranged skill that hits very hard, especially since it can zerk+crit, while you don't see it coming (opposite of an arma for instance). The seeker needs absolutely no skill, just a good refined r9 weapon and a little luck. Since cd and cost of gemini is low, they can try there luck often. When facing a seeker 1vs1 or when seeing it coming, it's a totally different story. They are quite tanky but easy to control. They only have gemini and sacrificial slash that are dangerous. When you know it's coming, there is no real problem anymore. Especially since sacrificial slash cd is same as bubble or psy will. However, 12~15k zerkcrits popping out of nowhere gets me killed quite often. For archers or sins, who also pop out of nowhere, I got less problems with this as they are supposed to work like that. Those are rather squishy, supposed to attack you when not expecting it and still don't hit as hard.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · October 2013

In a situation where you had two players of equal skill, and equal fully endgame gear. The wizard would beat the psy the vast majority of times. I'm not sure about the seeker.

The tl:dr version is; the wizard has strong debuffs, psys have no debuffs, in white vodoo they shouldnt be able to kill the wizard, in black vodoo they are much more likely to be killed 1st.

Where this situation has gone the other way, it is most always down to skill differences, or gear differences or both.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear · October 2013

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In a situation where you had two players of equal skill, and equal fully endgame gear. The wizard would beat the psy the vast majority of times. I'm not sure about the seeker.

The tl:dr version is; the wizard has strong debuffs, psys have no debuffs, in white vodoo they shouldnt be able to kill the wizard, in black vodoo they are much more likely to be killed 1st.

This is what I also believe for 1v1. We can't acquire the firepower to take a Wizard down without putting ourselves at some risk, and it definitely doesn't help that one tree of our skills gets its damage reduced by their barriers....Undine+Spark or kill attempts off of SoSt triggers are both fairly telegraphed, but neither side will just be throwing those around - it'll come down to who can bait the other to slip up and waste resources on faked attempts (and a bit of luck regarding Purify Spell/Criticals).

Seems like a 55-45/60-40 disadvantage for us.

Seekers aren't so bad since you can CC them fairly easily, but random Zerk/Crits (or both) from range is still pretty nasty. At least if you manage to survive one of their bigger kill attempts off of QPQ+Sac-Slash and Gemini, you've got time to deal with them before they can try it again.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

You already know my viewpoint on this issue, but in my experience.. psychics have no chance against a well played end game wizard. You mention that psychics one shot their opponents and get one shot themselves.. but I can tell you that I've never been one shot by a psychic before (since I got my gear anyway). It's kinda of ridiculous the damage difference between us.. I actually can't even remember ever getting hit more than ~9k from a psychic.. and that in that case the psychic was in black + used poison + got a crit. To put this in perspective, full r9rr +12 josd w/ nw upgrade psys that are in black voodoo take ~20k NON CRIT from undine spark d.pyro. To add insult to injury, undine poison BIDS crits also hits in the ~16k range (when they are in black) which makes for an easy bypass.

Generally, the first time I fight a psychic they will start in black which leads to a very untimely death for them. The remainder of other fights generally consist of the psychic turtling in white voodoo for long periods of time and only come out with genie/apoth ready.. where I'll either ninja kill them before they can react if they are in black.. or if they are being really stubborn and sitting in white.. I'll can just undine -> spark -> any fire skill when the psy is near half hp, and a crit on that combo is more than enough for a bypass.

I can't imagine what the wizards on your server are doing..

Eoria - Harshlands · October 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I can't imagine what the wizards on your server are doing..

HL wizzies are notoriously bad for the most part. It's okay.

Longknife - Harshlands · October 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

You already know my viewpoint on this issue, but in my experience.. psychics have no chance against a well played end game wizard. You mention that psychics one shot their opponents and get one shot themselves.. but I can tell you that I've never been one shot by a psychic before (since I got my gear anyway). It's kinda of ridiculous the damage difference between us.. I actually can't even remember ever getting hit more than ~9k from a psychic.. and that in that case the psychic was in black + used poison + got a crit. To put this in perspective, full r9rr +12 josd w/ nw upgrade psys that are in black voodoo take ~20k NON CRIT from undine spark d.pyro. To add insult to injury, undine poison BIDS crits also hits in the ~16k range (when they are in black) which makes for an easy bypass.

Generally, the first time I fight a psychic they will start in black which leads to a very untimely death for them. The remainder of other fights generally consist of the psychic turtling in white voodoo for long periods of time and only come out with genie/apoth ready.. where I'll either ninja kill them before they can react if they are in black.. or if they are being really stubborn and sitting in white.. I'll can just undine -> spark -> any fire skill when the psy is near half hp, and a crit on that combo is more than enough for a bypass.

I can't imagine what the wizards on your server are doing..

But between the fact that spark combo sets off both Psy shields, spark requires the Wiz to be close in order to use it (big giveaway; hell I bluffed a spark combo out of a wiz just today and Psy willed the spark off to bait him into a dangerous situation) and that Disturb soul is this MASSIVE crippling effect that requires a spike crit and gives a Psy every opportunity imaginable to interrupt any potential big hit or combo, tf is going on that I'm missing?

And "oneshot and get oneshot by everything" was more an exaggeration about the general speed of Psy fights. That's not really the case if we're talking about a fight vs. arcanes, but the deaths on both sides will be fast and sudden regardless.

Personally? My fights go like me camping white, hitting them with disturb soul (may save it if it feels I can tank the wiz without it for a time) and using the DoTs + sage Spirit blast simply to build chi. Regardless of the wizzies genie, I use soul of stunning because even if they badge it or fortify it, I'm exhausting a genie that could be used for spark combo or AD. Every successful SoSt where it's clear the wiz can't badge OR I have Disturb Soul on the wiz, I'm switching to black, again applying the DoTs (but this time with black voodoo damage) and maybe Diminished Vigor, and depending on my chi and how the wizzie's health is looking by the end of the stun, I'll try for Tide Spirit or a spark (double, triple (omg a use for triple)) for damage with AD to ensure I'm not interrupted. And yeah, I actually like to get in the wizzie's face to a degree because the Soul of ____ shields do a wonderful job of **** with spark combo threats while being next to them avoids any distant shrink attempts to run. If I Tide Spirit I may also put Soulburn on them for just that reason, knowing full well their gut reaction to catching me in black is gonna be Undine or FoW, so there's a free tick and an extra tick if they try to distance shrink. If I'm not satisfied with how the wizzie's HP is looking after the stun duration, I can simply go back to white, but my DoT's will continue dealing black-based damage, which may catch the wiz off guard.
Ultimately the result is I'm plenty free to camp white until I'm good and ready and despite the chi required for Disturb soul, I ultimately have a MUCH, much easier time keeping my genie ready and building my chi up than a wiz with slow-as-balls channeling and a constant need to dodge a 10+ second stun is. So even if I'm losing 30 chi every so often, the wiz simply -is not building chi- while I'm regularly getting chi returns and I'm not even touching my genie.
Black is plenty safe as long as you keep a defense up. A defense could be a defense charm, Disturb Soul, SoSt or what-have-you. All of those discourage the wiz from having enough DPH or DPS to kill without the Psy having time to react. Typically I feel as though most Psys are either too scared to enter black when they should or they psyche themselves out to the point where they can't recognize the proper time to enter it. The earth shield is more or less a nonfactor since a Psy SHOULD be able to stick to pure water skills when needed.

I wish I had filmed that Tournament fight, cause yeah as I said I was undergeared, but the advantage felt in my favor by a longshot; aka I was biding time and ticking his charm while he wasn't doing jack to me.

We can't acquire the firepower to take a Wizard down without putting ourselves at some risk

Sometimes I read things like this and I feel like I'm the only one that's realized that simply putting your DoTs on an enemy BEFORE letting loose with attacks is BASICALLY the equivalent of dealing 2k extra damage per hit in a 10 second timeframe (aka enough time to get past a charm). Yes, sometimes those things get purified really early on, but that's when you simply go back to white and try again. Psy DoTs are best DoTs.

HL wizzies are notoriously bad for the most part. It's okay.

Not denying this, but I've also heard the same said about LC Psys. (not that ours are much better. "hurrrdurrr camp white voodoo until ur IG off cooldown for black")

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · October 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

Do you faceroll or get face rolled by those two?

ez question ez answer b:cute

Zsw - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Without having considered all matters of playstyle, how would one make such a generalization?

I think we should do Longknife vs Adroit and see who wins.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear · October 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Without having considered all matters of playstyle, how would one make such a generalization?

I think we should do Longknife vs Adroit and see who wins.

This would be interesting...b-but different servers. b:sad

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

@Longknife - I think you are missing something.. a proper spark combo is incredibly fast. I found an example of what it can look like from the receiving end from an old video I was in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXFoU13DQj4 skip to ~4:35).. and since that video I've gotten a lot more consistent at doing the combo very quickly. Not to say it is impossible, but I've never found somebody that was able to react/resist the first hit (and the number of people that are able to resist the 2nd hit even half the time I can count with my fingers on one hand).. I really do not think anybody would ever be able to react quick enough to stop the first hit due to inherent server lag. Really your only chance is to predict it, and it isn't terribly difficult to mix it up and use it at different times.

I don't think I'd really be able to convince you of the above without you actually experiencing it, but depending how bad you want to know you could level up a toon to level 10 on LC.. get soul of fire on genie and we could duel just to see if you can react in time to stop the first hit. Assuming I am right and you are unable to react in time, you then remember that spark will blow your mdef charm.. and you realize how extremely vulnerable you are in black voodoo. I don't even need a crit to one shot you.. and if you are sitting around with sos, all it takes is one purify proc or even a sutra power orb if I'm impatient and you are getting one shot with essentially nothing you can do about it.

I think a lot of the strategy you mentioned makes a lot of sense, disturb soul + constant sos is probably the best thing you can do.. but there are easy ways to deal with that as well. Some things you didn't really address is that while you are derping around in white you can easily proc my purify and then disturb soul is gone and I can waste your sos without touching my genie. I can also build chi just fine with frostblade or morning dew.. or depending where the fight is and how jerk I'm feeling.. I could build any missing chi off mobs (generally if I've used any chi the psy is dead.. so this is pretty rare) or even put on arcane defense and let a mob hit me so disturb soul is purified. It sounds like the wizzies you fight are willing to blow all of their genie/chi while you are turtling in white.. and that is something no good player would do. I can sit there ignoring you and building chi until you decide to go black.. where it is extremely easy to blow past all of your defenses and get an easy one shot. Depending how long you turtle in white, I can also try to kill you there. I'm unlikely to use apoth/genie to set something up.. but if you proc my purify while in white, I don't have to worry about sos or distrub soul so I can poke you down a bit and then hope for a crit with spark combo for a quick win.

If psychics were able to go toe to toe with a wiz while in black voodoo, I think they'd have a chance.. but atm I think it is very one sided. With this matchup, it really comes down to who can tank who better, and psychics drew the short stick

Longknife - Harshlands · October 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

@Longknife - I think you are missing something.. a proper spark combo is incredibly fast. I found an example of what it can look like from the receiving end from an old video I was in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXFoU13DQj4 skip to ~4:35).. and since that video I've gotten a lot more consistent at doing the combo very quickly. Not to say it is impossible, but I've never found somebody that was able to react/resist the first hit (and the number of people that are able to resist the 2nd hit even half the time I can count with my fingers on one hand).. I really do not think anybody would ever be able to react quick enough to stop the first hit due to inherent server lag. Really your only chance is to predict it, and it isn't terribly difficult to mix it up and use it at different times.

I don't think I'd really be able to convince you of the above without you actually experiencing it, but depending how bad you want to know you could level up a toon to level 10 on LC.. get soul of fire on genie and we could duel just to see if you can react in time to stop the first hit. Assuming I am right and you are unable to react in time, you then remember that spark will blow your mdef charm.. and you realize how extremely vulnerable you are in black voodoo. I don't even need a crit to one shot you.. and if you are sitting around with sos, all it takes is one purify proc or even a sutra power orb if I'm impatient and you are getting one shot with essentially nothing you can do about it.

I think a lot of the strategy you mentioned makes a lot of sense, disturb soul + constant sos is probably the best thing you can do.. but there are easy ways to deal with that as well. Some things you didn't really address is that while you are derping around in white you can easily proc my purify and then disturb soul is gone and I can waste your sos without touching my genie. I can also build chi just fine with frostblade or morning dew.. or depending where the fight is and how jerk I'm feeling.. I could build any missing chi off mobs (generally if I've used any chi the psy is dead.. so this is pretty rare) or even put on arcane defense and let a mob hit me so disturb soul is purified. It sounds like the wizzies you fight are willing to blow all of their genie/chi while you are turtling in white.. and that is something no good player would do. I can sit there ignoring you and building chi until you decide to go black.. where it is extremely easy to blow past all of your defenses and get an easy one shot. Depending how long you turtle in white, I can also try to kill you there. I'm unlikely to use apoth/genie to set something up.. but if you proc my purify while in white, I don't have to worry about sos or distrub soul so I can poke you down a bit and then hope for a crit with spark combo for a quick win.

If psychics were able to go toe to toe with a wiz while in black voodoo, I think they'd have a chance.. but atm I think it is very one sided. With this matchup, it really comes down to who can tank who better, and psychics drew the short stick

But the spark combo is STILL incredibly predictable. I can't say where exactly I like to stand because I don't really have a -concious- note of it (no consistency, I just adapt based on how the fight's going and how their damage is), but I try different distances and setups depending on how my health is doing, and spark combo is basically broadcasted because it means the wiz is trying to get close to you. Wasn't joking yesterday when I said I'd baited it out of a wiz. He distance shrunk right next to me, fortify'd my SoSt and Undined, and I decided to stand there and Psy will it instead of simply running. Sure enough he bought into it and neglected his defense for a bit. Not saying my timing is DAT GOOD, more or less saying spark combo, even if timed correctly, is incredibly obvious. Likewise, if Disturb soul is up, then any attempt to use a flame skill sends up warning flags, and Landslide or Earth Vector are both good enough to interrupt and an emergency SoR (will resist spark) is also plausible.

And yeah, purify spell pretty much means back to white voodoo and get out of direct range. Didn't mention that cause it's tedious and kind of a given. That's part of the reason I try to limit the spells I use to the DoTs (not Telekinesis cause I need chi) and Spirit Blast, since the DoTs won't proc it and Spirit Blast alone is unlikely to proc it. In the same light though, a single Soul of Silence means any combo attempt is basically broken.
As for you building chi? Look, I'm sage. If you're really doing something I don't like, I can afford to Earth Vector you and wait until the sage proc hits and it doesn't consume chi. You'd spend a nice 18 seconds out of 30 seconds stunned, and go get hit with Disturb soul and try to cast Morning Dew. Again, I have Landslide; I can interrupt a spell of my choosing, and letting you waste a lot of time channeling something like Morning Dew or BT before I finally interrupt it? Totally worth it. And mobs? I'm obviously gonna get to them and kill them faster. But it's not even so much about preventing you from getting chi, but rather letting myself build chi; mobs would be to MY advantage in that sense because it lets me build chi (sure-fire thing I'll outcast you) without the worry of setting off purify spell. I know what skills you can cast with sparks, and they're all different ways of dealing damage, with Essential Sutra being the one to watch out for. By the time I'm on the offensive, I'm all set with both chi and genie energy for exactly that reason: to prevent any attempts to ninja spark combo with ES.

Just keep in mind how easy it is for me to monitor, control, interrupt and bait your channeling if you have Disturb soul up. It would be very, very easy to simply let the DoTs tick you when you have Diminished Vigor up, then as it ticks, throw up a sudden SoST, THEN I make my move, change to black and use my chi to try for a kill. That's exactly how I won against that one wiz that outgeared me.

And don't get me wrong, wiz has an opportunity to oneshot anything. I just find it outrageously odd how people want to claim Psy is weak vs. Wiz when I have THAT much control over the wizard and killing is definitely plausible. As I may have said in my last post though, I get the sense Disturb Soul is horrendously underrated and no one can figure out that while most targets can be killed before the full duration of DoT spells, DoTs are useful for baiting charm ticks OR stacking up damage at specific time intervals, in this case, getting them on you BEFORE I switch to black and trip spark or what-have-you to try for a kill.
It's also sort of in the same light as Psy vs Barb. I hear barbs regularly claim they have the advantage (feels 50-50 to me), but honestly, it feels like a pyrrhic victory for them if I'm ticking the ever-living **** out of them as they fail to touch me for a good minute. The same applies here.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

But the spark combo is STILL incredibly predictable. I can't say where exactly I like to stand because I don't really have a -concious- note of it (no consistency, I just adapt based on how the fight's going and how their damage is), but I try different distances and setups depending on how my health is doing, and spark combo is basically broadcasted because it means the wiz is trying to get close to you. Wasn't joking yesterday when I said I'd baited it out of a wiz. He distance shrunk right next to me, fortify'd my SoSt and Undined, and I decided to stand there and Psy will it instead of simply running. Sure enough he bought into it and neglected his defense for a bit. Not saying my timing is DAT GOOD, more or less saying spark combo, even if timed correctly, is incredibly obvious. Likewise, if Disturb soul is up, then any attempt to use a flame skill sends up warning flags, and Landslide or Earth Vector are both good enough to interrupt and an emergency SoR (will resist spark) is also plausible.

And yeah, purify spell pretty much means back to white voodoo and get out of direct range. Didn't mention that cause it's tedious and kind of a given. That's part of the reason I try to limit the spells I use to the DoTs (not Telekinesis cause I need chi) and Spirit Blast, since the DoTs won't proc it and Spirit Blast alone is unlikely to proc it. In the same light though, a single Soul of Silence means any combo attempt is basically broken.
As for you building chi? Look, I'm sage. If you're really doing something I don't like, I can afford to Earth Vector you and wait until the sage proc hits and it doesn't consume chi. You'd spend a nice 18 seconds out of 30 seconds stunned, and go get hit with Disturb soul and try to cast Morning Dew. Again, I have Landslide; I can interrupt a spell of my choosing, and letting you waste a lot of time channeling something like Morning Dew or BT before I finally interrupt it? Totally worth it. And mobs? I'm obviously gonna get to them and kill them faster. But it's not even so much about preventing you from getting chi, but rather letting myself build chi; mobs would be to MY advantage in that sense because it lets me build chi (sure-fire thing I'll outcast you) without the worry of setting off purify spell. I know what skills you can cast with sparks, and they're all different ways of dealing damage, with Essential Sutra being the one to watch out for. By the time I'm on the offensive, I'm all set with both chi and genie energy for exactly that reason: to prevent any attempts to ninja spark combo with ES.

Just keep in mind how easy it is for me to monitor, control, interrupt and bait your channeling if you have Disturb soul up. It would be very, very easy to simply let the DoTs tick you when you have Diminished Vigor up, then as it ticks, throw up a sudden SoST, THEN I make my move, change to black and use my chi to try for a kill. That's exactly how I won against that one wiz that outgeared me.

And don't get me wrong, wiz has an opportunity to oneshot anything. I just find it outrageously odd how people want to claim Psy is weak vs. Wiz when I have THAT much control over the wizard and killing is definitely plausible. As I may have said in my last post though, I get the sense Disturb Soul is horrendously underrated and no one can figure out that while most targets can be killed before the full duration of DoT spells, DoTs are useful for baiting charm ticks OR stacking up damage at specific time intervals, in this case, getting them on you BEFORE I switch to black and trip spark or what-have-you to try for a kill.
It's also sort of in the same light as Psy vs Barb. I hear barbs regularly claim they have the advantage (feels 50-50 to me), but honestly, it feels like a pyrrhic victory for them if I'm ticking the ever-living **** out of them as they fail to touch me for a good minute. The same applies here.

It's pretty obvious you have never fought even a decent wizard before, and unfortunately it's pretty unlikely we'll ever be able to 1v1. I've fought against psychics that have done many of the things you are describing, and it is just not enough to get a kill. Anyway, I think your entire strategy depends on you outplaying your opponents (them being super predictable/derpy).. and if you ever come across a wizard that is even half competent you are going to be in for a nasty surprise.

mynameiswizy · October 2013

Interesting.
vids please b:chuckle

Psy vs Wiz
I've seen vids from Adroit(Wiz), Bezmor(Psy)

and yeah.. it is more interesting watching end-game gear vid 1 v 1 b:chuckle cmon

Euzebe - Sanctuary · October 2013

Yup, I'd like to see some vids. Imo, it's the wiz's fight to lose. It's insanely hard, though not impossible, to blow through 100-150% endgame wizard hp in 10-14 seconds without them doing absolutely nothing to stop it.

Seekers aren't so bad but zerk/crits are annoying.

Nowadays I feel like we have the advantage over mobs and that's about it.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

I dunno... tide spirit does enough damage that a psychic can heavy-dps a wiz to death, especially if they have diminished vigor in.

Combos I've seen kill *stuff* really well:

-apply dots in white, get target near half hp
-soul of stunning
-switch to black
-tide spirit
-damage spell
-immobilize spell
-100 skill that has 50% chance to seal
-more damage spells (most people should be dead)

They have 14 seconds to kill you after your charm ticks (assuming sage), and with soul of stunning, earth vector, and seal from the 100 skill, they can keep you locked down for a really really long time.

And while I know that a wizard can definitely bypass a psychic, their combos are often ruined by seal, and with that, heal, and disturb soul, they can stay close to full hp a lot.

Also, bids crit doing 16k? What psychics have you been fighting I wonder... my tempest crits on buffed, jaded +12 psychics do maybe... 8k? (On that note, a psychic's best bet in general is to be as buffed as possible. Buffs favor psychic in a psychic vs. wizard; the wizard needs the bypass ability, which is reduced by buffs, but buffs or no, a psychic does enough dps to still kill a wizard.)

All that being said, I gotta agree with Adroit about the natural advantage of wizard vs. psychics in general... earth shield, and bypass ability in general. Beyond that it comes down to gear, reaction time, and how clever you are... and always, a bit of luck. A clever wizard with excellent reaction times may get stunned by a psychic and instantly use badge... but the badge fails... woops. Or a wizard may use fortify to hit the SoS psychic, and the psychic unleashes a crit right on top of the debuff fortify gave you when you are at half hp, which I assure you is able to bypass your charm (totally happened to me before lol... gotta be careful using fortify too much). Or a demon psychic might just crit on you 4 times in a row without ticking your purify proc... voila, you will die. Never discount the luck factor!

On an entirely different note, I beat up both psychics and wizards 1vs1... teehee!

Eoria - Harshlands · October 2013

You can basically nullify the mdef reduction on fortify as a wiz by using elemental shell.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I dunno... tide spirit does enough damage that a psychic can heavy-dps a wiz to death, especially if they have diminished vigor in.

Combos I've seen kill *stuff* really well:

-apply dots in white, get target near half hp
-soul of stunning
-switch to black
-tide spirit
-damage spell
-immobilize spell
-100 skill that has 50% chance to seal
-more damage spells (most people should be dead)

They have 14 seconds to kill you after your charm ticks (assuming sage), and with soul of stunning, earth vector, and seal from the 100 skill, they can keep you locked down for a really really long time.

And while I know that a wizard can definitely bypass a psychic, their combos are often ruined by seal, and with that, heal, and disturb soul, they can stay close to full hp a lot.

Also, bids crit doing 16k? What psychics have you been fighting I wonder... my tempest crits on buffed, jaded +12 psychics do maybe... 8k? (On that note, a psychic's best bet in general is to be as buffed as possible. Buffs favor psychic in a psychic vs. wizard; the wizard needs the bypass ability, which is reduced by buffs, but buffs or no, a psychic does enough dps to still kill a wizard.)

All that being said, I gotta agree with Adroit about the natural advantage of wizard vs. psychics in general... earth shield, and bypass ability in general. Beyond that it comes down to gear, reaction time, and how clever you are... and always, a bit of luck. A clever wizard with excellent reaction times may get stunned by a psychic and instantly use badge... but the badge fails... woops. Or a wizard may use fortify to hit the SoS psychic, and the psychic unleashes a crit right on top of the debuff fortify gave you when you are at half hp, which I assure you is able to bypass your charm (totally happened to me before lol... gotta be careful using fortify too much). Or a demon psychic might just crit on you 4 times in a row without ticking your purify proc... voila, you will die. Never discount the luck factor!

On an entirely different note, I beat up both psychics and wizards 1vs1... teehee!

I actually disagree with a number of things in your post here. First of all, I rarely 1v1 full buffed because it gets boring really fast.. it is nearly impossible to kill a maxed character with full buffs 1v1 unless they absolutely suck. I think you are incorrect that buffs would benefit a psychic more than a wizard, more than likely the fight would end up in a stalemate.. but any remote chance the psychic may have had at killing me would be lost when I'm sitting at nearly 25k hp, 33k mdef, and 115 def lvl. It would be quite a bit more difficult for me to set up a kill, but it is really only a matter of time.

You also mention a wizard hitting fortify vs a psy while at half hp? Or hitting badge immediately after getting stunned without any hint of being in a threatening situation.. both of these are assuming the wizard is derping hardcore, and not really what we are talking about. Actually same thing with 4 crits in a row.. if you didn't react to something like that.. you fully deserve that go to town button.

And you beat up the derpy* wizzies on your server.. I think a real wiz vs ep would be a lot more interesting

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Well... some more thoughts.

If by being buffed, a psychic goes from 'an almost sure loss' to 'likely draw', then the buffs really do benefit the psychic more, right? Also, a draw vs somebody winning really depends on how long you let the fight go on for, I mean, just to be a bit crazy, if it went for more than an hour those buffs would start running out for one person or the other! *Somebody* would win eventually... with a reasonable time limit, then yeah, I see a draw being likely. Incidentally... 25k hp? Really? I have a light armor helm, and my hp with a NW apoth still doesn't hit 25k hp. Are you rounding up, or do you genuinely have that much hp buffed? Ah... perhaps you've already finished the meridian system?

Second, in a fight where I must 1vs1, if somebody that I can't kill buffed shows up, I really can purge them... given enough time. Eloquent proof of this can be found in one of my latest videos (vs the seeker), where I do a rather unfair but effective (sleep > seal of gods) lock (all the while spam healing myself) until my genie procs that 10% chance purge. In theory, other arcane classes can try purging too (with less of a safety net, true, but they can still try). That could change the fight from 'dang its gonna be a draw for sure' to 'whoever gets the first purge gets somewhat of an advantage' (even if you spirit of defense right away afterwards, at the very least you'll lose spirits gift, and your apoth would be on cooldown... it would be the ideal time to try an offensive play like tide spirit or triple spark).

You said that you've seen psychics do 9k crits to you...and that probably wasn't triple sparked. If you fight self-buffed, that is enough to bypass your charm. A demon psychic in particular can get really high crit rate with landslide proc. While I understand that a wizard can get charm bypasses more often, I wouldn't discount a psychic's ability to do the same to you with a water skill crit near half hp. My magic defense is undoubtedly higher than yours, and even I've seen those 8-9k crits from psychics. And as you know very well, reacting to a charm bypass just isn't really possible!

Ah, and closing argument. When fighting me, you can't underestimate how unfair I'm willing to be to win a 1vs1, lol. Things I am willing to do which can frustrate the hell out of people I fight:

-somebody is bypassing my charm too easily in a fight I *must win*? Get buffs/use spirit of defense
-I need triple spark to kill somebody? Spam triple sparks. Triple spark failed? Sleep opponent, switch to channeling gear and get back full chi really really quickly.
-I can't kill the opponent through their buffs even if I do triple spark? Sleep > seal of gods them until I get a purge off, while spam healing myself
-I've tried all of the above and the opponent still refuses to die? I can force a draw by spam healing myself. Classes that don't purge me, cannot really kill me if switch to defensive mode (sleep em, spam heal, purify every attempt at undine strike until I can seal of gods, spam heal, more purifies, sleep. Somebody may be able to charm bypass, but one-shotting me is a whole nother' thing, lol. Basically, if they don't run away, I can keep a single opponent locked down until one of us calls the fight off.

Now usually I don't have to use such admittedly lame tactics. Most people I can straight up fight against, which is funner for both me and my opponent. But when I'm fighting somebody who is very very well geared, or who is really talented, its the stuff like this which lets me play to my class advantages (super long control skills, ability to gain chi really fast, very very powerful heal over time) to still maintain an edge. It isn't as fast-paced or exciting or highly mobile as a wizard's fight, but these are the sorts of things a cleric can do to be very strong 1vs1. Just like a wizard, it is hard to combat a cleric even if you KNOW what is coming.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well... some more thoughts.

If by being buffed, a psychic goes from 'an almost sure loss' to 'likely draw', then the buffs really do benefit the psychic more, right? Also, a draw vs somebody winning really depends on how long you let the fight go on for, I mean, just to be a bit crazy, if it went for more than an hour those buffs would start running out for one person or the other! *Somebody* would win eventually... with a reasonable time limit, then yeah, I see a draw being likely. Incidentally... 25k hp? Really? I have a light armor helm, and my hp with a NW apoth still doesn't hit 25k hp. Are you rounding up, or do you genuinely have that much hp buffed? Ah... perhaps you've already finished the meridian system?

Well, depends how you look at it. If their chance of killing me has dropped to essentially zero, and they had maybe a 5% chance before.. and I'm still able to kill them now, they haven't really gotten anywhere except wasted both of our time. These are my current full buffed stats (with magic ring): http://oi39.tinypic.com/2u6jm3a.jpg.. and yeah I just finished meridian (ironically a few hours ago I just got the last open)

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Second, in a fight where I must 1vs1, if somebody that I can't kill buffed shows up, I really can purge them... given enough time. Eloquent proof of this can be found in one of my latest videos (vs the seeker), where I do a rather unfair but effective (sleep > seal of gods) lock (all the while spam healing myself) until my genie procs that 10% chance purge. In theory, other arcane classes can try purging too (with less of a safety net, true, but they can still try). That could change the fight from 'dang its gonna be a draw for sure' to 'whoever gets the first purge gets somewhat of an advantage' (even if you spirit of defense right away afterwards, at the very least you'll lose spirits gift, and your apoth would be on cooldown... it would be the ideal time to try an offensive play like tide spirit or triple spark).

You said that you've seen psychics do 9k crits to you...and that probably wasn't triple sparked. If you fight self-buffed, that is enough to bypass your charm. A demon psychic in particular can get really high crit rate with landslide proc. While I understand that a wizard can get charm bypasses more often, I wouldn't discount a psychic's ability to do the same to you with a water skill crit near half hp. My magic defense is undoubtedly higher than yours, and even I've seen those 8-9k crits from psychics. And as you know very well, reacting to a charm bypass just isn't really possible!

The 9k crit was a while ago, and my gear has improved since (so it wouldn't be 9k anymore).. but even if it was 9k.. I'm sitting at over 17.6k hp unbuffed, so it would be extremely difficult to bypass me with a 9k hit. I'd have to be caught at literally 50-51% hp (an hp range of ~150).. and somehow trip my mdef charm as well as hit me before my hp pot puts me over 51% hp.. all the while hoping I do absolutely nothing (I commonly use level 1 wind shield when I'm getting close to half hp). Not something I really worry about. Our of curiosity, what is your mdef?

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ah, and closing argument. When fighting me, you can't underestimate how unfair I'm willing to be to win a 1vs1, lol. Things I am willing to do which can frustrate the hell out of people I fight:

-somebody is bypassing my charm too easily in a fight I *must win*? Get buffs/use spirit of defense
-I need triple spark to kill somebody? Spam triple sparks. Triple spark failed? Sleep opponent, switch to channeling gear and get back full chi really really quickly.
-I can't kill the opponent through their buffs even if I do triple spark? Sleep > seal of gods them until I get a purge off, while spam healing myself
-I've tried all of the above and the opponent still refuses to die? I can force a draw by spam healing myself. Classes that don't purge me, cannot really kill me if switch to defensive mode (sleep em, spam heal, purify every attempt at undine strike until I can seal of gods, spam heal, more purifies, sleep. Somebody may be able to charm bypass, but one-shotting me is a whole nother' thing, lol. Basically, if they don't run away, I can keep a single opponent locked down until one of us calls the fight off.

Now usually I don't have to use such admittedly lame tactics. Most people I can straight up fight against, which is funner for both me and my opponent. But when I'm fighting somebody who is very very well geared, or who is really talented, its the stuff like this which lets me play to my class advantages (super long control skills, ability to gain chi really fast, very very powerful heal over time) to still maintain an edge. It isn't as fast-paced or exciting or highly mobile as a wizard's fight, but these are the sorts of things a cleric can do to be very strong 1vs1. Just like a wizard, it is hard to combat a cleric even if you KNOW what is coming.

Well we can both go full turtle.. if we were both using full buff pots, I don't think we'd ever kill each other. Yeah we can play the purge games and use annoying tactics.. but that goes both ways (and eruption fist is only so useful when apoth cd is far less than average time it takes to get a purge). It is so easy to stay alive indefinitely from a cleric with the right genie too.. but none of this really matters because it is pretty unlikely we will ever 1v1. If you wanted any hope of killing me 1v1 though, I think you'd need to bait me into using some offensive stuff (which ofc I wouldn't use while you are spam healing yourself or while im slept/sog'd) or I'd easily be able to cycle through my skills/chi/genie/apoth to stay alive essentially indefinitely.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Interesting...

When buffed your stats definitely beat out mine in every category at the moment; I'm maybe 10-15% away from truly being maxed on everything.

Against the normal variety of enemies, I use my physical defense ring (my cloud stir is only +7 atm). Self buffed with +11 sky cover (my usual gear setup) I have 15k phy and 23.6k magic; with a presumably +12 magic defense NW-upgraded cloud stir I'd be at roughly 26.5k magic; then with maxed meridian (currently on 3rd circle) and 105 NW apoth I think I'd be a bit under 30k. Because my build lacks 50 magic points on yours, magic defense or attack will never be quite as high, but my hp should exceed yours by about 2-3k when fully buffed.

To actually kill you, I'd probably forgo physical defense altogether, in order to use my -15% channeling neck, which, if we assume I +12ed, would possibly put my magic defense up near your current stats, though I would lose a lot of attack lvl and defense level. Physical defense charm, plume shell, and vanguard spirit should be enough to save me from the infrequent occurence of you doing physical damage. In fact, if I had more cash (I don't) sitting around, I could get an elemental cube neck as well.

I've already been thinking about how to kill super-tanky arcanes after a 20 minute fight with our server's tankiest mystic ended as a draw (gear identical to yours except her meridian is unfinished). The two strategies I can see possibly working are triple spark occult ice, or triple spark purge genie. Since dph isn't an option for me, I have to utilize dps strategies from other classes, lol.

With my current gear setup you clearly have the advantage. If I increase my magic defense as planned, it could go either way, but it would definitely be a very long fight. You would struggle to keep me near half hp with undine strike on (I purify the **** out of that debuff, lol) long enough to sleep me and try for a bypass, and that bypass would need to crit and get around magic defense charm, pious blessing, wind shield, etc. I would struggle a bit less to get you near half hp, but I would have more trouble finishing you after I tick your charm and break my own sleep.

Incidentally, on a fully buffed you, I'd do about 9.5k healing debuff. With the ordinary combo, this means I sleep you, tick your charm with mark of weakness, and then get in one more hit before you can react (usually wield thunder), which in your case we might guess would leave you at about 13-14k. This leaves you with way too much time to react, and I could even get a successful occult ice and still not kill you.

The advanced form of this combo is to get your hp exactly above half, seal of gods, then thunderball and sleep. I then triple spark, your charm is ticked by the thunderball dot, and then I do mark of weakness, and a wield thunder. This is my deadliest combo, and minimizes the amount of time enemies have to react; in your case I'm guessing your hp would be a bit under 10k if I don't crit on the wield thunder. That is still 2 hits away from killing you even if they both crit, which gives you too much time to react; a successful kill would involve 2-3 crits and a successful occult ice. Feasible but difficult to pull off, given all the requirements that need to be met (your hp exactly above half, your genie off cooldown, occult ice working, and getting multiple crits).

Generally to kill the really nastily difficult-to-kill people I have to use a triple spark combo like this, white tea immediately after, and repeat it before their genie charges up again. Naturally this does make me somewhat vulnerable, but if I don't go to these lengths, the result is probably a draw.

However you look at it, wizard and clerics are not meant to kill each other, lol. Our natural enemies are barbs, archers, and occasionally bms, and sins. If self-buffed, seekers can threaten us as well. Venos... are just annoying lol. I think venos might have a better chance against wizards. Actually I don't know for sure, there is a distinct lack of talented venos on my server. A veno often leads to my death, but is rarely the person who actually kills me. I suspect the same is true for wizards.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Interesting...

When buffed your stats definitely beat out mine in every category at the moment; I'm maybe 10-15% away from truly being maxed on everything.

Against the normal variety of enemies, I use my physical defense ring (my cloud stir is only +7 atm). Self buffed with +11 sky cover (my usual gear setup) I have 15k phy and 23.6k magic; with a presumably +12 magic defense NW-upgraded cloud stir I'd be at roughly 26.5k magic; then with maxed meridian (currently on 3rd circle) and 105 NW apoth I think I'd be a bit under 30k. Because my build lacks 50 magic points on yours, magic defense or attack will never be quite as high, but my hp should exceed yours by about 2-3k when fully buffed.

To actually kill you, I'd probably forgo physical defense altogether, in order to use my -15% channeling neck, which, if we assume I +12ed, would possibly put my magic defense up near your current stats, though I would lose a lot of attack lvl and defense level. Physical defense charm, plume shell, and vanguard spirit should be enough to save me from the infrequent occurence of you doing physical damage. In fact, if I had more cash (I don't) sitting around, I could get an elemental cube neck as well.

I've already been thinking about how to kill super-tanky arcanes after a 20 minute fight with our server's tankiest mystic ended as a draw (gear identical to yours except her meridian is unfinished). The two strategies I can see possibly working are triple spark occult ice, or triple spark purge genie. Since dph isn't an option for me, I have to utilize dps strategies from other classes, lol.

With my current gear setup you clearly have the advantage. If I increase my magic defense as planned, it could go either way, but it would definitely be a very long fight. You would struggle to keep me near half hp with undine strike on (I purify the **** out of that debuff, lol) long enough to sleep me and try for a bypass, and that bypass would need to crit and get around magic defense charm, pious blessing, wind shield, etc. I would struggle a bit less to get you near half hp, but I would have more trouble finishing you after I tick your charm and break my own sleep.

Incidentally, on a fully buffed you, I'd do about 9.5k healing debuff. With the ordinary combo, this means I sleep you, tick your charm with mark of weakness, and then get in one more hit before you can react (usually wield thunder), which in your case we might guess would leave you at about 13-14k. This leaves you with way too much time to react, and I could even get a successful occult ice and still not kill you.

The advanced form of this combo is to get your hp exactly above half, seal of gods, then thunderball and sleep. I then triple spark, your charm is ticked by the thunderball dot, and then I do mark of weakness, and a wield thunder. This is my deadliest combo, and minimizes the amount of time enemies have to react; in your case I'm guessing your hp would be a bit under 10k if I don't crit on the wield thunder. That is still 2 hits away from killing you even if they both crit, which gives you too much time to react; a successful kill would involve 2-3 crits and a successful occult ice. Feasible but difficult to pull off, given all the requirements that need to be met (your hp exactly above half, your genie off cooldown, occult ice working, and getting multiple crits).

Generally to kill the really nastily difficult-to-kill people I have to use a triple spark combo like this, white tea immediately after, and repeat it before their genie charges up again. Naturally this does make me somewhat vulnerable, but if I don't go to these lengths, the result is probably a draw.

However you look at it, wizard and clerics are not meant to kill each other, lol. Our natural enemies are barbs, archers, and occasionally bms, and sins. If self-buffed, seekers can threaten us as well. Venos... are just annoying lol. I think venos might have a better chance against wizards. Actually I don't know for sure, there is a distinct lack of talented venos on my server. A veno often leads to my death, but is rarely the person who actually kills me. I suspect the same is true for wizards.

I think you are right that it'd take something fairly complex like that to get a kill.. but that still leaves the problem of how you are going to get me to waste my genie.. especially when you give me so much time for genie energy to regen in sog/sleep. If I'm full buffed, you aren't going to force genie without something like triple spark.. and if I were sitting at ~75% hp and you weren't close to dying.. I might just throw myself a quick heal so that you'd need to poke my hp down during sog/sleep. And you'd have to be careful using your kill combos because you could easily run out of genie energy, and that would leave you very vulnerable. My guess is that it'd probably end up in a draw, I think I might have a chance surprising you with a few tricks that you probably haven't seen before and I haven't discussed much on forums.. but even if they did work (can be difficult to set up), you could stop any future deaths by just ignoring me and spam healing yourself forever

I think the big weakness of the ep kill combo is that it is just so incredibly slow.. if you are forced to triple spark to get a kill, I can easily just save genie for triple spark and live forever.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I think you are right that it'd take something fairly complex like that to get a kill.. but that still leaves the problem of how you are going to get me to waste my genie.. especially when you give me so much time for genie energy to regen in sog/sleep. If I'm full buffed, you aren't going to force genie without something like triple spark.. and if I were sitting at ~75% hp and you weren't close to dying.. I might just throw myself a quick heal so that you'd need to poke my hp down during sog/sleep. And you'd have to be careful using your kill combos because you could easily run out of genie energy, and that would leave you very vulnerable. My guess is that it'd probably end up in a draw, I think I might have a chance surprising you with a few tricks that you probably haven't seen before and I haven't discussed much on forums.. but even if they did work (can be difficult to set up), you could stop any future deaths by just ignoring me and spam healing yourself forever I think the big weakness of the ep kill combo is that it is just so incredibly slow.. if you are forced to triple spark to get a kill, I can easily just save genie for triple spark and live forever.

You are right. Wizard heal turns out to be my biggest problem... I can rarely stop it (only sleep can, and I only use want to use sleep when he's near half hp if possible). The most recent 30min + fight I had against our wizard's best-geared wizard devolved into a long defensive struggle where:

-we would do some cursory hits on each other to get hp near half
-he would try debuffing me with undine strike
-I would instantly purify it off and stack more healing debuffs
-he would spam his wizard heal to clear healing debuff
-repeat ad naseum, lol

For either of us to kill each other, we had to risk more. He started trying undine strike > spark > fire skill combos when I was near full hp, which were never successful. I started throwing triple spark after triple spark at him, along with a physical-debuffed magical shackles. Ultimately I was successful, but it was definitely a contest to see who would slip up first, or get lucky on back-to-back-to-back crits. Given a time limit of, say, 10 minutes, the fight would almost certainly be a draw. (He didn't really slip up; I did eventually wear down his defenses with 3 triple sparks back to back; yes I used white tea.)

Mind you, I'll qualify this by saying that longish fight was when he had cleric buffs. Without cleric buffs I feel I definitely have an edge vs him, because without him having magic shell I do enough dmg, and my healing debuff stacks high enough, that I can get kills off without triple spark (aided by a few crits and magical shackles procs. His gear... is probably as good as yours, and like you he uses magical defense ring +12. His problem is a style adapted from tw---he kites very well, but sometimes kites when he should be countering instead (often our most vulnerable moments are in the middle of our offensive plays, as any martial artist could tell you!).

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are right. Wizard heal turns out to be my biggest problem... I can rarely stop it (only sleep can, and I only use want to use sleep when he's near half hp if possible). The most recent 30min + fight I had against our wizard's best-geared wizard devolved into a long defensive struggle where:

-we would do some cursory hits on each other to get hp near half
-he would try debuffing me with undine strike
-I would instantly purify it off and stack more healing debuffs
-he would spam his wizard heal to clear healing debuff
-repeat ad naseum, lol

For either of us to kill each other, we had to risk more. He started trying undine strike > spark > fire skill combos when I was near full hp, which were never successful. I started throwing triple spark after triple spark at him, along with a physical-debuffed magical shackles. Ultimately I was successful, but it was definitely a contest to see who would slip up first, or get lucky on back-to-back-to-back crits. Given a time limit of, say, 10 minutes, the fight would almost certainly be a draw. (He didn't really slip up; I did eventually wear down his defenses with 3 triple sparks back to back; yes I used white tea.)

Mind you, I'll qualify this by saying that longish fight was when he had cleric buffs. Without cleric buffs I feel I definitely have an edge vs him, because without him having magic shell I do enough dmg, and my healing debuff stacks high enough, that I can get kills off without triple spark (aided by a few crits and magical shackles procs. His gear... is probably as good as yours, and like you he uses magical defense ring +12. His problem is a style adapted from tw---he kites very well, but sometimes kites when he should be countering instead (often our most vulnerable moments are in the middle of our offensive plays, as any martial artist could tell you!).

I've seen your video against FayHumming.. I can assure you that I don't play anything like him.. >.>

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I've seen your video against FayHumming.. I can assure you that I don't play anything like him.. >.>

Oh he was pretty awful in that video. I'm talking about a much more recent fight... he's not the smartest wizzy out there, but he has gotten loads better that he used to be, lol.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Oh he was pretty awful in that video. I'm talking about a much more recent fight... he's not the smartest wizzy out there, but he has gotten loads better that he used to be, lol.

I'm not sure how interested you are in this, but I was doing a little testing yesterday with Ahira (nearly maxed ep on lost city, full r9rr +12 josd with all the nw upgrades.. I think the only thing she is missing is +12 on helm and to finish meridian, maybe a few engraves could be improved too.. but has nw upgrade pdef and mdef ring +12 etc). With my purge genie, after a purge I can hit Ahira for ~12-13k non crit with spark, which is obviously a one shot with a crit. We also tested her triple sparked damage on me after I had used a full buff pot, was hitting me for ~6k crits with wield thunder and ~4k crits with plume shot. Maybe a fight between us wouldn't be a stalemate, but could end after a purge at the right time.

evolution1234 · November 2013

1v1 psychic vs wizard, wizard wins almost 100% of the time. Let us assume both end game self buff. The only way psychic can possibly win is timing the damage over time skills, diminish vigor, plus water spells to deal 20k damage under 8 seconds (while keep wizard stunned). This is really hard to do when the only damage amplifying spell is extreme poison.

I would like to know if demon psychic does a bit better with crit buff and earth debuff.

Euzebe - Sanctuary · November 2013

evolution1234 wrote: »

1v1 psychic vs wizard, wizard wins almost 100% of the time. Let us assume both end game self buff. The only way psychic can possibly win is timing the damage over time skills, diminish vigor, plus water spells to deal 20k damage under 8 seconds (while keep wizard stunned). This is really hard to do when the only damage amplifying spell is extreme poison.

I would like to know if demon psychic does a bit better with crit buff and earth debuff.

We demons do have a higher DPS chance, but more so on the crit than on the earth debuff. If you time skills right, you ought to have more than 8 seconds with the wizard disabled.

I have beaten better geared wizards but I still think endgame, they have the upper hand.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · November 2013

You gotta keep in mind adroit, purge works both ways though, and you can't deny that I'll be able to purge you more frequently than you can purge me (sleep, purge attempt, purge attempt, purge attempt, seal of gods, purge attempt, immobilize, back up, wait a few seconds, sleep... etc). Though when I purge, I probably can't get the instant kill, I should be able to purge faster on average. Purge attempts come with an interesting drawback for either of us when they fail: each attempt costs 80 energy, which means no ad or belief for quite a while after each attempt. As for a spark combo being possible after a purge... yes this is certainly true. Again, the problem becomes if I survive (say by using soul of fire), then you have zilch left on genie. It is why I don't generally use my purge genie unless I have no hope of killing somebody without it. Also in theory, as long as I keep my distance from you, I can control your opportunity to use spark in the first place... of course I'll also be spam purifying undine strike hehe. But yeah totally a lucky purge can make all the difference. The other day I went to west and I used eruption fist on a barb, and it failed. He was getting all snarky 'stop doing that, fail, blah blah', and I sit there for a few more moments, hit my magic shell, do another try at eruption fist, it purges, and I shoot off an insta-tempest, which crit and one shot the barb. Was so disappointed I didn't film that... *small tear*. Lol.

Adroit - Lost City · November 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You gotta keep in mind adroit, purge works both ways though, and you can't deny that I'll be able to purge you more frequently than you can purge me (sleep, purge attempt, purge attempt, purge attempt, seal of gods, purge attempt, immobilize, back up, wait a few seconds, sleep... etc). Though when I purge, I probably can't get the instant kill, I should be able to purge faster on average. Purge attempts come with an interesting drawback for either of us when they fail: each attempt costs 80 energy, which means no ad or belief for quite a while after each attempt. As for a spark combo being possible after a purge... yes this is certainly true. Again, the problem becomes if I survive (say by using soul of fire), then you have zilch left on genie. It is why I don't generally use my purge genie unless I have no hope of killing somebody without it. Also in theory, as long as I keep my distance from you, I can control your opportunity to use spark in the first place... of course I'll also be spam purifying undine strike hehe. But yeah totally a lucky purge can make all the difference. The other day I went to west and I used eruption fist on a barb, and it failed. He was getting all snarky 'stop doing that, fail, blah blah', and I sit there for a few more moments, hit my magic shell, do another try at eruption fist, it purges, and I shoot off an insta-tempest, which crit and one shot the barb. Was so disappointed I didn't film that... *small tear*. Lol.

Oh, I'm definitely aware that purge goes both ways. Tbh though, I think a wizard is able to abuse that purge better than an ep can. Like I've mentioned many times already, the ep kill combo is very slow.. and is very easy to counter with genie. Not only does your opponent have lots of time to regen genie energy while sog/slept or getting debuffs stacked on, there is like almost no chance you are going to catch somebody by surprise with a random kill shot (assuming they have end game gear). Even when I'm unbuffed, Ahira's tempest with mdef debuff and poison hits me ~4.4k non crit.. so there is a good chance that if you purged me I could just hit a full buff pot and be fine. It is however possible for you to purge me, I use a full buff pot, and then you could purge me again before apoth cd is over.. but that is fairly unlikely.. and still doesn't guarantee a kill.

On the other hand, if I were to purge you.. you are in immediate danger. As I've said before, I've never found someone that was able to resist the first hit on my spark combo (very few people that can even resist the 2nd hit), and being that the first hit would have a chance to one shot, I have a combo that will essentially guarantee a kill if I'm able to live long enough and repeat it enough. I also don't think you'd have much luck keeping a distance from me.. first of all wizards have better mobility than clerics.. so we are the ones that end up dictating what range we generally fight at, and also if you stand at a range it'll take you longer to stack up heals (even slower combo) and I'll easily be able to blink out of range anytime I want so you'd have an even more difficult time killing me if you somehow managed to keep me at max range. And trying to purify every undine is also a losing battle to you, undine costs only mana and has a 1 sec cd.. you could continue purifying it, but you'd be using a spark every 5 seconds which isn't exactly sustainable.

trands · November 2013

Why did this turn into an Adroit brag vs Cleric pride ? b:surrender
Ofc, psychics are very much like clerics and we all know Adroit > > > everything, but I was actually interested by a topic on the psy subforums for once and now there is this sort of "contest" b:infuriated

Who wins in Psy vs. Seeker/Wizard?

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