Nowadays Cultivation?? demon sage opinion

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · September 2013

I agree with you Adroit, both sage and demon are good, i mostly hate ppl saying demon wiz sucks, when they would probably die against a same geared demon wiz, is not like we cant kill stuff XD
And my comparison on crit, channel, and SB is mostly for not endgame gear, thats where is more noticeable the diference.

As long as wizzies remain as an active class, im happy if they are either sage or demons b:laugh

Elchesh - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

If you are spamming your genie for chi, you don't have your genie available for other purposes. Then the argument becomes demon has slightly more crit/chan/pdef/cc and sage has more genie to use. I like that I don't feel the need to use chi pots/cloud as sage, which allows me to take advantage of other genie/apoth options.

Yes, sage does have a great chi advantage. I think that, to take full advantage of you sage/demon skills, you have to use totally different combos. If played right, either is very good. I have learned to use combos that don't use a lot of chi yet still do great dmg while taking advantage of the demon skill set. Demon wizards should learn combos that don't use as much chi. I am not an expert but that is my opinion on it.

I have to agree that my genie is crippled if I spam cloud eruption.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · September 2013

Why do ppl go demon? Primarily Control... if you're going demon for SB or the crits from mastery then you should also buy a boat... for storage...

Secondary (and you really have to build for it). Speed. If you're built right Demon Quaff can be well worth the 1 spark. High chan wizards can theoretically gain back chi pretty damn fast, though in most group situations you cant spend the 15 seconds just hitting things w/o being hit back.

Why do ppl go sage? Primarily Chi... (IP DB BT MS?)

Secondary. I would argue that sage bids is significant enough to be included (for AA vs AA)

RyougiShiki already said it. In this age of purify, rapid multiple hits and control are less important then the ability to bypass/try multiple times (and hope no puri). Relative to before I would say that sage has become stronger and demon weaker. That said more control is still better then less control and in the same way more chi is also better then less chi (if this doesnt make sense you probably bought that boat earlier)

Despite all this I will probably be swapping back to demon once my faction is more stable in TW power, and if i felt like pking again. (b/c demon fit my 'normal' style better)

oorochi · September 2013

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why do ppl go demon? Primarily Control... if you're going demon for SB or the crits from mastery then you should also buy a boat... for storage...

Secondary (and you really have to build for it). Speed. If you're built right Demon Quaff can be well worth the 1 spark. High chan wizards can theoretically gain back chi pretty damn fast, though in most group situations you cant spend the 15 seconds just hitting things w/o being hit back.

Why do ppl go sage? Primarily Chi... (IP DB BT MS?)

Secondary. I would argue that sage bids is significant enough to be included (for AA vs AA)

RyougiShiki already said it. In this age of purify, rapid multiple hits and control are less important then the ability to bypass/try multiple times (and hope no puri). Relative to before I would say that sage has become stronger and demon weaker. That said more control is still better then less control and in the same way more chi is also better then less chi (if this doesnt make sense you probably bought that boat earlier)

Despite all this I will probably be swapping back to demon once my faction is more stable in TW power, and if i felt like pking again. (b/c demon fit my 'normal' style better)

people say the increase in demon SB, the % extra crit from mastery, the faster channel in some skills and % control skills are not good enough with end game gear, im sorry but have u hit a caster with sage bids, even if it crits it might just bypass charm... thats only good for HA or LA, and not all really, so i dont think nowadays sage bids is SUCH a great thing, was OP when wizzies has like 8% crit at full gear lol

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · September 2013

oorochi wrote: »

people say the increase in demon SB, the % extra crit from mastery, the faster channel in some skills and % control skills are not good enough with end game gear, im sorry but have u hit a caster with sage bids, even if it crits it might just bypass charm... thats only good for HA or LA, and not all really, so i dont think nowadays sage bids is SUCH a great thing, was OP when wizzies has like 8% crit at full gear lol

i tihnk what you are trying to say is that sage bids isnt super great? i dont understand what your point is about the first 1/2 of what ur talkin about.

i agree i dont tihnk sage bids is the end all be all in fact was a bit disapointed by it after swapping to sage. all i said is that i feel that it is significant enough to be included as a secondary point, not as "SUCH a great thing." b:thanks

Aeliah - Dreamweaver · September 2013

One important point I want to emphasize is the 30 meters vs 25 meter for blink, when comparing a demon wizard to a sage wizard. 30 meters is further than the range of any other arcane's attacks; minor exceptions with my two 100 skills, elven boon and seal of gods.

If, for example, I'm fighting a sage wizard, and they blink, I can instantly seal of gods them; it'll take them at least 1 more second after the blink is over to run out of my range of seal of gods (and furthermore, they remain in range of ALL my range skills for at least a second or two). I'm assuming, properly so, that I would be keeping melee range at all times when fighting a sage wizard (precisely for this purpose).

A demon wizard, on the other hand, has their melee range 50% chance stun, and a 30 meter blink. Unless I'm literally standing exactly on top of the demon wizard, as soon as they blink they are out of range of all my skills. If I was standing exactly on top of wiz, I have a fraction of a second to get off seal of gods, and if I can't do it fast enough, the wizard has successfully escaped. Common escape combo for wizard, then, could be seen as stun > blink > safe.

Just a thought.

On the note of range, Drag was mentioning MS as well, and that should not be discounted either. That attack has the largest range damaging attack in game, a feat it shares with knife throw and berserker's wrath. In terms of TW safety, you can probably get that ulti off more safely because you can do it out of attack range of enemies... probably combine with quaff to get it off faster?

Adroit - Lost City · September 2013

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One important point I want to emphasize is the 30 meters vs 25 meter for blink, when comparing a demon wizard to a sage wizard. 30 meters is further than the range of any other arcane's attacks; minor exceptions with my two 100 skills, elven boon and seal of gods.

If, for example, I'm fighting a sage wizard, and they blink, I can instantly seal of gods them; it'll take them at least 1 more second after the blink is over to run out of my range of seal of gods (and furthermore, they remain in range of ALL my range skills for at least a second or two). I'm assuming, properly so, that I would be keeping melee range at all times when fighting a sage wizard (precisely for this purpose).

A demon wizard, on the other hand, has their melee range 50% chance stun, and a 30 meter blink. Unless I'm literally standing exactly on top of the demon wizard, as soon as they blink they are out of range of all my skills. If I was standing exactly on top of wiz, I have a fraction of a second to get off seal of gods, and if I can't do it fast enough, the wizard has successfully escaped. Common escape combo for wizard, then, could be seen as stun > blink > safe.

Just a thought.

On the note of range, Drag was mentioning MS as well, and that should not be discounted either. That attack has the largest range damaging attack in game, a feat it shares with knife throw and berserker's wrath. In terms of TW safety, you can probably get that ulti off more safely because you can do it out of attack range of enemies... probably combine with quaff to get it off faster?

The blink distance can be good or bad, I actually had a friend that was demon that had almost every demon skill and actually switched to sage and then demon again so that he could keep blink at level 10 (and learned all of the other skills again). He told me it was just too far, I'm assuming it just meant that he would blink so far that he often times couldn't hit his target again immediately after a blink. Also, the distance you blink is less on hilly terrain.. and may not always get you out of range of an ep (or whoever your ranged opponent is). I do think you are correct though that demon wizzies have a little more than sage wizzies in terms of discouraging other range classes from being in melee range though (although I generally like to be close to other range classes, so this isn't a huge deal for me).

Toliman - Raging Tide · September 2013

At level 89 I had selected Demon Cultivation.

During last 3 days got 80% to level up to 89 level (26% from Assault on Archosaur, other 54% from mobs, 1 Villa quest, Divine Order quests, bh69-79 and fb39-79).

*Edit*Yet one Oracle quest level 85, which dropped from mobs (it happens sometimes)*Edit*

Humorous for me was event, when I had landed between guards of Crystal (quest of Demon Cultivation). It was suddenly for me, from height 78 to heads of the guards, without buffs ... I had activated Dragon's Breath as soon as saw them, but their life was more than 200k (level 90 mobs). So I resurrected (just leveled to 89, experience 0) at nearby city and used help of my Cleric to kill mobs.

Bought 2 Tukang's wines for fb89, 25 teleacoustics (this is first time,when I will use them), just had not time to gather squad and do fb89 Elden yesterday .

Got squad very quickly.

Thanks to all, who had helped me.

Learned 5 Demon skills (Demonic Eruption, Mo Zun's Taunt, Stone Rain, Pyrogram and Gush).

Tested them while killing 55 level 95 mobs (for quest) in Momaganon self-buffed.

Demonic Eruption - fast death for mob.

Total damage output increased too.

Szol - Harshlands · October 2013

tw'S :sage wins
open pvp :demon wins . this stands even more true, given the gears everyone seems to be running around with (r9rrr)

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Szol - Harshlands wrote: »

tw'S :sage wins
open pvp :demon wins . this stands even more true, given the gears everyone seems to be running around with (r9rrr)

What makes you think that? This nonsense has been going around for years, it's just accepted without any reason behind it at all.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Szol - Harshlands wrote: »

tw'S :sage wins
open pvp :demon wins . this stands even more true, given the gears everyone seems to be running around with (r9rrr)

If you think that sage owns TW i assume its because of spamable ulltis easier than demon... well, tell me against r9r people, how many you kill with ultis??? in the past maybe, but nowadays... not so much...

Ursa - Dreamweaver · October 2013

Szol - Harshlands wrote: »

tw'S :sage wins
open pvp :demon wins . this stands even more true, given the gears everyone seems to be running around with (r9rrr)

nope , has nothing to do with gear.
Even in TW spamming ultis is not an option.
As PvP goes, I never had any issues with cultivation, and I knew very good wizards on both sides of the culti that did not complain either. Most people just go blindly with 150% pdef on demon 'cause it's so eye catching, but forget Sage get 120% also and once you get into the 17-18k area (+10 ornaments) those 30% might not even cover enough for 1% reduction.
The differences have nothing to do with gear and everything to do with how you play your wizard and what you rely on for survival/damage

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2013

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

nope , has nothing to do with gear.
Even in TW spamming ultis is not an option.
As PvP goes, I never had any issues with cultivation, and I knew very good wizards on both sides of the culti that did not complain either. Most people just go blindly with 150% pdef on demon 'cause it's so eye catching, but forget Sage get 120% also and once you get into the 17-18k area (+10 ornaments) those 30% might not even cover enough for 1% reduction.
The differences have nothing to do with gear and everything to do with how you play your wizard and what you rely on for survival/damage

Check it: http://pwcalc.com/f29b3e4c008bb7e9
According curve of physical defense/physical damage reduction dependence difference at least 2% (79-81%), that mean almost 10% physical damage reduction in comparison with Sage:

(100%-81%)=19% (Demon)
(100%-79%)=21% (Sage)
100%*(21%-19%)/21%=9.5% (Comparison)
What mean:
for every 1000 damage of Sage Demon get 905 damage (being hit by same enemy).

RyougiShiki - Raging Tide · October 2013

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

Check it: http://pwcalc.com/f29b3e4c008bb7e9
According curve of physical defense/physical reduction dependence difference at least 2% (79-81%), that mean almost 10% physical damage reduction in comparison with Sage:

(100%-81%)=19% (Demon)
(100%-79%)=21% (Sage)
100%*(21%-19%)/21%=9.5% (Comparison)
What mean:
for every 1000 damage of Sage Demon get 905 damage.

yes and with AFA or WS while you taking the hit the difference are not significant

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

Check it: http://pwcalc.com/f29b3e4c008bb7e9
According curve of physical defense/physical damage reduction dependence difference at least 2% (79-81%), that mean almost 10% physical damage reduction in comparison with Sage:

(100%-81%)=19% (Demon)
(100%-79%)=21% (Sage)
100%*(21%-19%)/21%=9.5% (Comparison)
What mean:
for every 1000 damage of Sage Demon get 905 damage (being hit by same enemy).

at least 2%? No, with my gear it is 82% vs 83% for sage vs demon, which is 1%. For a real end game build (not w/e your calc was), it is generally a 1-2% difference, which translates to 5-11% less physical damage coming in. I should also note that the majority of the time I die, it is because of a purge.. where there is a 0% difference between sage/demon.

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

at least 2%? No, with my gear it is 82% vs 83% for sage vs demon, which is 1%. For a real end game build (not w/e your calc was), it is generally a 1-2% difference, which translates to 5-11% less physical damage coming in. I should also note that the majority of the time I die, it is because of a purge.. where there is a 0% difference between sage/demon.

According your own post (note in footer).
Current gear (Sage Stone Barrier):
http://pwcalc.com/6ec2f777b728f19c
physical damage reduction 82%
Current gear (Demon Stone Barrier):
http://pwcalc.com/1cebca8c29c4ca14
physical damage reduction 84%
84%-82%=2%.

What you mean by 1% ?

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · October 2013

The real reason demon is better then sage in PK is due to demon 3 spark, and no I am not talking about the channeling effect, but rather the fact that demon spark is RED while sage spark is WHITE. Research on Olympic competitions (Tae Kwon Do) shows an individual wearing red is statistically more likely to win than an opponent waering blue due to the fact that red is an intimidating color that lowers the amount of testosterone and other hormones produced by an opponent who has to face an opponent wearing red.

Lets just pretend this is all true, okay who the **** cares?!

1% 2%?! when was the last time you survived w/ that tiny sliver of HP, has it happened before? duh it has!! "ALL" the time? Yes im sure... in the same way you "ALWAYS" find things in the last place you look (no actually im a dumbass and continue to search for things after ive found them, so touche! I find things in not the last place I look!! Go me!)

If your main point is demon SB > sage SB i dont think there is anyone that is going to dispute this/disagree (asides from TT99 +5 wearing sage archers who 1 shot r999s). Congratulations this **** is obvious.

If you are trying to say the THE reason to go demon is demon SB (vs A reason) you need to go play like fking solitaire and make sure you dont get a paper cut... playing on the computer.

seriously.. you are going to buy a car, what it comes down to is which one comes w/ a free air freshener amiright? all else being like exactly equal this may be a determining factor, but all else isnt equal.

b:thanks

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2013

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

...
1% 2%?! when was the last time you survived w/ that tiny sliver of HP, has it happened before? duh it has!! "ALL" the time? Yes im sure... in the same way you "ALWAYS" find things in the last place you look (no actually im a dumbass and continue to search for things after ive found them, so touche! I find things in not the last place I look!! Go me!)

...

I say about 5%-10% less damage to Demon Wizard, these are different numbers.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

...
...
If you are trying to say the THE reason to go demon is demon SB (vs A reason) you need to go play like fking solitaire and make sure you dont get a paper cut... playing on the computer.

b:thanks

No, I had selected Demon Wizard for high channeling speed.

And independent of your opinion I had never played in "solitaire".

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · October 2013

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

I say about 5%-10% less damage to Demon Wizard, these are different numbers.

No, I had selected Demon Wizard for high channeling speed.

And independent of your opinion I had never played in "solitaire".

clearly you are an idiot or not fluent in English, ill apologize a little if its the latter.
In one of your prior posts you just made a point to say that it was 2% instead of 1%. Then you would reply something stupid like hey man thats more then 1% or 2% extra survival. no **** sherlock, additionally thats already been stated, and I can actually read.

How are my "numbers" different? all I refer to is "tiny sliver of hp" and 1% or 2%, if you want to infer that 1% or 2% MUST MEAN 1% or 2% survival then idk anymore... where did 1%/2% come from? YOU! what did you mean by 1%/2%? Clearly you meant survival. (just fking kidding)

If someone is talking and asks for between one and four dozen donuts (idk just go w/ it) and you reply "so is 3 okay?" is the original speaker going be like mother****er what am i going to do w/ 3 BILLION donuts?!?! obviously the 3 signifies 3 dozen donuts... (or maybe its not to you)

I have like 15k hp, its not often that I live w/ 750 hp or hell even 1.5k (it HAS happened before :O). Generally I dont acutally die.. but if it does happen alot of times its due to a combination of all sorts of wonderful damage and/or involves purge, a point adroit already made and you just ignored.

b:bye

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2013

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

clearly you are an idiot or not fluent in English, ill apologize a little if its the latter.
In one of your prior posts you just made a point to say that it was 2% instead of 1%. Then you would reply something stupid like hey man thats more then 1% or 2% extra survival. no **** sherlock, additionally thats already been stated, and I can actually read.

How are my "numbers" different? all I refer to is "tiny sliver of hp" and 1% or 2%, if you want to infer that 1% or 2% MUST MEAN 1% or 2% survival then idk anymore... where did 1%/2% come from? YOU! what did you mean by 1%/2%? Clearly you meant survival. (just fking kidding)

If someone is talking and asks for between one and four dozen donuts (idk just go w/ it) and you reply "so is 3 okay?" is the original speaker going be like mother****er what am i going to do w/ 3 BILLION donuts?!?! obviously the 3 signifies 3 dozen donuts...

I have like 15k hp, its not often that I live w/ 750 hp or hell even 1.5k (it has happened before though). Generally I dont acutally die.. but if it does happen alot of times its due to a combination of all sorts of wonderful damage and/or involves purge, a point adroit already made and you just ignored.

b:bye

You had not seen my calculations.

And you not know, what you say about.

Also try to be less rude. You are not in the bar.

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

Check it: http://pwcalc.com/f29b3e4c008bb7e9
According curve of physical defense/physical damage reduction dependence difference at least 2% (79-81%), that mean almost 10% physical damage reduction in comparison with Sage:

(100%-81%)=19% (Demon)
(100%-79%)=21% (Sage)
100%*(21%-19%)/21%=9.5% (Comparison)
What mean:
for every 1000 damage of Sage Demon get 905 damage (being hit by same enemy).

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · October 2013

I agree demon SB is not the only reason to go demon, there are many, but is a nice one. About the damage reduction, there is something that noone seems to be taking into account, not everyone is r9r +12 josd. Some people decide to shard with garnets, either exclusive, perfect, gems, in those cases, demons get a MAJOR boost in p.def over sage, cause is 30% more of p.def.
In my case for example, im demon wiz, r9r +10 armors, exclusive garnets, since my def levels arent great cause im not josd, having better base p.def makes a difference, btw im also missing r9r ring, have a sky cover though, and g14 +10 cube neck, and self buffed only, i have 19.7k p.def. And in the words of a r9r +12 deitys archer on server, hitting me and another wiz from my fact who has full josd, is pretty much same damage, ofc once purged, till i redo SB i can die faster than him XD

Demon SB is better, but not the only reason to go demon, is like saying BIDS is the only reason to go sage, that would be fail thinking, and sadly i have heard it before

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · October 2013

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

You had not saw my calculations.

And you not know, what you say about.

Also try to be less rude. You are not in the bar.

Okay I am now convinced English is not your Primary language. I am sorry if I was being mean earlier :<

But I am very sorry to inform you that you also suck at math. Dont worry the condition can be cured or at least alleviated by this thing called "studying."

Your post Says for every 1000 damage a demon wizard would take 905 damage. I noted that I have 15k HP and 10% of that would be 1.5k hp :O

Now if you really want to get technical I should actually consider how often I just BARELY die since I'm currently sage and I should determine when demon SB would have saved me.

But its called seeing the big ****ing picture

I actually dont have 15k hp I have 15038... but it doesnt make a difference, in the same way your posts about demon SB doesnt actually make a difference in determing sage or demon.

I've already said it, but we all agree demon SB> sage SB. That's cool and nice. b:cute

What is your point? That we should go demon for demon SB?
While it is nice, clearly the control skills offered by demon and the faster channeling (as you yourself mention) play a large role, making demon SB an afterthought (is this something which you would dispute?)

This will be my last post on this thread, I will hope that the rest of the wizard community is not full of idiots. b:thanksb:bye

Toliman - Raging Tide · October 2013

I said why I had selected Demon cultivation.

Nobody forced to do same or be polite.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Toliman - Raging Tide wrote: »

According your own post (note in footer).
Current gear (Sage Stone Barrier):
http://pwcalc.com/6ec2f777b728f19c
physical damage reduction 82%
Current gear (Demon Stone Barrier):
http://pwcalc.com/1cebca8c29c4ca14
physical damage reduction 84%
84%-82%=2%.

What you mean by 1% ?

I haven't added my meridian stats to pwcalc (or new engraves).. mainly because they change almost every day. I now have over 17.2k hp and 20.2k pdef self buff (and 20k mdef).. 20.2k pdef shows 83% reduction.

Szol - Harshlands · October 2013

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

nope , has nothing to do with gear.
Even in TW spamming ultis is not an option.
As PvP goes, I never had any issues with cultivation, and I knew very good wizards on both sides of the culti that did not complain either. Most people just go blindly with 150% pdef on demon 'cause it's so eye catching, but forget Sage get 120% also and once you get into the 17-18k area (+10 ornaments) those 30% might not even cover enough for 1% reduction.
The differences have nothing to do with gear and everything to do with how you play your wizard and what you rely on for survival/damage

150pdeff is not the argument used for going demon, when speaking of equal geared endgame pvp scenarios

in my eyes a demon wiz just got that extra *umph* required to kill :P

apart from that , yes the sage vs demon discussion evolving around bids only ... thats 3 years in the past

Ursa - Dreamweaver · October 2013

nope, it's not the "umph" either, the damage output is roughly the same if you average the most common used skills.
Like I've said many times before, it's a question of how you play your toon. Both styles are equally good with their own ups and downs. Sage will rely more on chi combos to kill, demon will rely on a little bit of extra control of the battle. That's all that it comes down to.

Adroit - Lost City · October 2013

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

nope, it's not the "umph" either, the damage output is roughly the same if you average the most common used skills.
Like I've said many times before, it's a question of how you play your toon. Both styles are equally good with their own ups and downs. Sage will rely more on chi combos to kill, demon will rely on a little bit of extra control of the battle. That's all that it comes down to.

^ pretty much this

Nowadays Cultivation?? demon sage opinion

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