Nowadays Cultivation?? demon sage opinion

mynameiswizy · September 2013

Hay everybody,
I want to know your Opinion about Demon or Sage b:pleased
nowadays.

anw, I'm a sage surrounding by chi build is good but I got less CC which is sometime make me want to go to demon part so I can CC ing while I got nothing to kill and bla3.

with 9 other Classes, with R9RRR walk around, morai Skills Pvp
what is YOUR opionion nowadays, guys? b:thanks b:thanks

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

low chance stuns/freezes + higher def vs aoe seal, chi, aoe zhen stun and sage BiDS crit

Adroit - Lost City · September 2013

I still strongly prefer sage, just fits my play style much better. One big thing I've noticed is that demon wizards get absolutely crippled by constant chi drain, and on a sage wizard it is a lot more manageable (although still annoying).. which I think makes us a little more versatile.

mynameiswizy · September 2013

yea,
even Morai is good, but it is chi draining skill again b:beatenup
even Sand Miasma give 0 chi b:laugh (I thought it will be the buff that give us chi)

Eoria - Harshlands · September 2013

I went demon on my alt wiz out of pure nostalgia for stun on demon stone rain. tbh, I wish I hadn't. Definitely going to echo Adroit on the chi management. x.x;;

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I still strongly prefer sage, just fits my play style much better. One big thing I've noticed is that demon wizards get absolutely crippled by constant chi drain, and on a sage wizard it is a lot more manageable (although still annoying).. which I think makes us a little more versatile.

I used to think that when I get 3rd fairy, I'd be switching straight away to demon because that was what I was used to. Over the past few months though I have been loving sage. I usually always have chi when I need it without having to use a pot and I don't notice not having demon hailstorm, pitfall or stone rain anymore.

Sheswes - Heavens Tear · September 2013

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I used to think that when I get 3rd fairy, I'd be switching straight away to demon because that was what I was used to. Over the past few months though I have been loving sage. I usually always have chi when I need it without having to use a pot and I don't notice not having demon hailstorm, pitfall or stone rain anymore.

u n00b ur opinion doesn't count ! tho sage ftw lol

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Sheswes - Heavens Tear wrote: »

u n00b ur opinion doesn't count ! tho sage ftw lol

lolololololololololololololololol

U_Sasuke - Sanctuary · September 2013

sage if u are going to do TW a lot
demon if you're more into open world PvP, or PvP in general

I used to be sage but i switched to demon later on, chi management isn't that bad, and the free control is def. worth it in open pvp.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Personally im demon and everyday happy about it, but both are good.
Sage has better ultis and chi gain and saving. Demon has better p.def, crit, channel and control skills, so yeah, demon wins in pvp, and sage is better to spam ultis in TW, but u cant lock ppl so easy. Besides, demon emberstorm is awesome in TW as well, also hailstorm has better freeze rate, and MS becomes a beast on the range it has, so demon is not useless in TW, just has to be used in a different way.
Again, i think both are great, so is more up to everyone's own use

mynameiswizy · September 2013

What about Spark Undine demon-divine pyro?
it is 2.5s CT and 1s casting time
so it is like Chanting a normal Sandstorm and got lower Casting time

is it good? b:chuckle
I found it is good in paper.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · September 2013

mynameiswizy wrote: »

What about Spark Undine demon-divine pyro?
it is 2.5s CT and 1s casting time
so it is like Chanting a normal Sandstorm and got lower Casting time

is it good? b:chuckle
I found it is good in paper.

the only difference is 0.5sec chan? (further reduced with some chan gear)
doesnt really seem like a culti maker to me

Adroit - Lost City · September 2013

I've always thought the idea that sage was somehow not as good as demon in world pk/1v1s to be ridiculous.. but maybe I'm just biased.

mynameiswizy · September 2013

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the only difference is 0.5sec chan? (further reduced with some chan gear)
doesnt really seem like a culti maker to me

for example gush vs pyrogram.
the different is just 0.5 sec . But when we are PvPing, yeah that 0.5 is somehow ... annoying.

um... anw...
b:laugh I just thought of it.
when there is a group of PK.
we have group about to gank them.
Wiz Casting a 2.5 Divine will not give a great attention. (comparing casting any otherskill)
and bam!! there 1 shot people(or at least charm by pass with no undine(again about getting any great attention is bad )), and still got sutra not in Cooldown...

I like divine-pyro and pyrogram because they have less animation on.

well, I can't experience it, Just imaginating it though. b:puzzled b:surrender

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · September 2013

mynameiswizy wrote: »

for example gush vs pyrogram.
the different is just 0.5 sec . But when we are PvPing, yeah that 0.5 is somehow ... annoying.

um... anw...
b:laugh I just thought of it.
when there is a group of PK.
we have group about to gank them.
Wiz Casting a 2.5 Divine will not give a great attention. (comparing casting any otherskill)
and bam!! there 1 shot people(or at least charm by pass with no undine(again about getting any great attention is bad )), and still got sutra not in Cooldown...

I like divine-pyro and pyrogram because they have less animation on.

well, I can't experience it, Just imaginating it though. b:puzzled b:surrender

If you're doing to fire combo then you'll be using Sutra anyways, in which cast Sage chi lets you use more Sutra

FaceRolI - Sanctuary · September 2013

I prefer demon for pk.

My build is a bit unusual and makes use of high chi gain. Also I am only Twing , so ATM I am sage

Demon CC might not seem to be that significant but those few moments provide time for setup and range.

Perhaps I am biased/just used to having demon CC I still prefer demon for pking.(also I can no longer fit as many skills on hotkeys)

mynameiswizy · September 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I've always thought the idea that sage was somehow not as good as demon in world pk/1v1s to be ridiculous.. but maybe I'm just biased.

I want to ask you about
if 1 v 1 sage wiz (you) vs really good gear barb or BM
I mean really tanky opponent.

how about that?
I found it a sage with very least control skill is a bit interesting

Adroit - Lost City · September 2013

mynameiswizy wrote: »

I want to ask you about
if 1 v 1 sage wiz (you) vs really good gear barb or BM
I mean really tanky opponent.

how about that?
I found it a sage with very least control skill is a bit interesting

An end game bm is ridiculously tanky, if played right with max gear it would be just about impossible for a wiz to kill 1v1 (regardless of culti). Luckily if the wiz isn't a total derp, the bm can't really kill it either.. so it is basically a stalemate. The wiz basically needs to catch the bm without marrow (which should never happen if the bm is competent) or do some kind of mortal reversion combo.. which a competent bm should almost always be able to counter. The bm's best chance at killing the wiz is going to be to purge and then catch the wiz before it can rebuff, which is also not very easy. I really think sage control skills are plenty sufficient in 1v1s like this, obviously more/better cc cannot be a bad thing.. but I value the chi more.

One situation I've been in where I was really glad I was sage was after an attempted kill combo on a bm (that didn't finish it) but left me relatively low on chi/genie (and if memory serves.. apoth was on cd from earlier), and the bm stole the rest of my chi at the same time as purge pole proc'd. I was able to get out of the situation really easy with an ele shell -> blink -> master li -> rebuff.. but a demon wiz would probably have been in more trouble. Really its only chance would be praying that demon emberstorm stuns.. or pray for wep to purify or for demon glacial spike to miss. Also, I was able to work my way back up to 2+ sparks relatively quickly (without cloud or chi pots), which is something I think a demon wiz would have a very difficult time doing with the constant chi drain.

I've never found a barb that gave me much trouble at equal gear.. they drop really easy without a mdef buff. Again sage cc is plenty, and I prefer extra chi over extra cc.

Toliman - Raging Tide · September 2013

My Wizard will have Demon cultivation.

I bought 3 Demon skills already for level 89 (these are cheap skills, as you know): Gush, Pyrogram and Stone Rain.

He will have channeling build (enforced with Demon spark) and chi will not be problem for him in PvE.

Edit:
Even now, with -33% channeling I often look for situation, when I will be able to use 2 spark skills (Wizard have full chi bar, but no mobs around or mobs are far from each other).

Ursa - Dreamweaver · September 2013

this is an age old discussion, but in the end it comes down to one thing: how you play your char.
Demon wizards rely on CC more to kill, sage wizards rely on chi for combos/skills to kill.
Both are good played well.

PS: I went sage and never looked back. The chi gain is just too important for how I play my wiz.

Elchesh - Heavens Tear · September 2013

I am a demon wiz and I agree that both are good.

Demon stone barrier is awesome. Demon dragons breath heals me a lot if I have a big group of mobs. I also use demon ember storm a lot when kiting around large groups of phy mobs, for the 50% chance to stun. That leaves me enough time to deal some decent dmg without taking too much at once. Another demon skill that I really like is wellspring quaff with the -chan. Morning dew heals a little over time which isn't great but helps.

Overall, I haven't had much of a problem with chi as I use cloud eruption and it seems to keep up well if your genie has the bonus to recharge.

juicybluca · September 2013

imo, sage wizards are better than demon ones @ very very very endgame

cause at that gear point (full +12) the improved phys def from demon barrier buff would not give that superior advantage as @ high-endgame

i was sage, switched to demon, and prolly gonna reswitch to sage when i will be full +12 with full crit engravings (buffed demon wiz can reach 35% crit rate and imo this is the second major factor to consider after phys def)

also i think, even if you are demon, chi wont be a problem if you have any genie with 100 mag and cloud eruption

Elchesh - Heavens Tear · September 2013

juicybluca wrote: »

imo, sage wizards are better than demon ones @ very very very endgame

cause at that gear point (full +12) the improved phys def from demon barrier buff would not give that superior advantage as @ high-endgame

also i think, even if you are demon, chi wont be a problem if you have any genie with 100 mag and cloud eruption

Demon stone barrier is an extra 50% phy def. IMHO that will always be a good boost. Vs 50% extra earth defense with sage.

From what I can see, the majority of people go sage because of the chi bonus. If chi isn't a problem for anyone with a good genie...then why would you prefer sage? Don't get me wrong, I am sure that sage has good points to, but I want to know why you would prefer it.

juicybluca · September 2013

Elchesh - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Demon stone barrier is an extra 50% phy def. IMHO that will always be a good boost. Vs 50% extra earth defense with sage.

From what I can see, the majority of people go sage because of the chi bonus. If chi isn't a problem for anyone with a good genie...then why would you prefer sage? Don't get me wrong, I am sure that sage has good points to, but I want to know why you would prefer it.

stolen from adroit pwcal:

sage barrier wiz endgame http://pwcalc.com/13d3c3fc9d56e588

demon barrier wiz endgame http://pwcalc.com/032de53ba1ecd759

as you can see difference is 2% more phys damage reduction (82% vs 84% on self buffs)

if you get bell and vanguard, the difference in phys res is almost no

Elchesh - Heavens Tear · September 2013

According to the calculator links that you posted.
105 wiz with buffs

Sage phy def is 19,727
Demon phy def is 22,262

So Demon has an extra 2,535 phy def. I would have to say I like those numbers.

Stone Barrier isn't the only reason I went demon though. It just works better for my style.

RyougiShiki - Raging Tide · September 2013

whats the different between sage/demon barrier with +10~12 oranes?
-1~2% phy resist maybe?

are those low chance cc skills still working well verse purify users/sage sins?
-not so much

whats the main factor determine wiz's attack power?
-chi

how to beat another wiz with eq gear like you when you knew he just put SoF on hotkey bar?
-a zerk'in bids

little conclusion: demon was very good, but sage acts better in current version b:cute

Elchesh - Heavens Tear · September 2013

It all comes down to both are good and you should look at both sets of skills and decide what is best for you. I like demon spark better, wellspring quaff, dragon's breath, morning dew, hailstorm, emberstorm and others.

The demon skills that aren't as nice are your passives add +crit and sage adds +dmg so sage wins on that and BIDS.

All this being said, I am inclined to want more of the demon version skills than the sage skills for how my play style is. And as I have said before, chi isn't a problem for me. I don't rely on my ultimate skills to kill everything. Sage works better for others and I am sure demon won't work as well for them if they are used to sage combos.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · September 2013

At same gear, demons are harder to kill...
Also better chance of crit at spark combos makes them deadlier, i know u gonna say sage BIDS, but anyone sees that coming from a mile...
P.def IS better as demon, and ofc if u count full jades +12 refines, there isnt a big difference, UNLESS someone wants a better channel too. Demon wiz can for example get a cloud stir instead of sky cover and not lose much p.def, sages would lose more.
Demon control skills are not high % to work, but when they do, they are great help.
Demon wizzies dont rely on chi so much, our ultis may not have the greastest atributes at level 11, but i dont spam them so often in 1 vs 1, spark combos are cheap in chi unless u BT, ofc in TW would be nicer to have better chi gain and chances for only 1 spark cost. (thats like the only better thing i find on sage, cheap ultis.
btw, demon MS rocks in TW!!!

Im not saying demon is better, just is not worst than sage.

Adroit - Lost City · September 2013

Just a couple notes, looking at the physical reduction the way it is being described (extra 1-2%) in this thread is a little misleading. If one reduction is 82% and another is 84%.. imagine a hit coming in that would otherwise deal 100 damage, @82% reduction it will do 18 damage.. @84% reduction it would deal 16 damage. That is actually a 12.5% difference in the damage that you take.. which is significant. I think this case is just a rounding issue.. with meridian boosts I have 83% phys reduction self buffed, and I believe demon would still be at 84% (although I can't rmr if it is the rounded 83% or a more precise value that is actually used in damage calcs). Either way, the extra pdef on stone barrier is definitely a perk for demon and shouldn't be neglected.

Elchesh - Heavens Tear wrote: »

From what I can see, the majority of people go sage because of the chi bonus. If chi isn't a problem for anyone with a good genie...then why would you prefer sage? Don't get me wrong, I am sure that sage has good points to, but I want to know why you would prefer it.

If you are spamming your genie for chi, you don't have your genie available for other purposes. Then the argument becomes demon has slightly more crit/chan/pdef/cc and sage has more genie to use. I like that I don't feel the need to use chi pots/cloud as sage, which allows me to take advantage of other genie/apoth options.

edit @ Dragslave: I don't think you are really thinking about the advantages you get from extra chi. Chi increases both survival and how deadly we are, which you completely ignore in your post.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

edit @ Dragslave: What makes you think demon wizards are harder to kill than sage?

from what i see in my server at least, sage wizzies drop easy, im demon, not OP geared (i mean, im ok, r9r +10 armors +12 weapon exclusive garnets) and i see that sages lack of resources to live more when purged especially. As demon, just by casting barrier again i hit 19k+ p.def after purged, that helps me a lot! Also emberstorm, stone rain when it works give me secs to escape, or start a counter attack, distanceshrink takes me off range from anyone but archers.. easy to kite pretty much anyone...
Ofc all depends on who plays, but ive seen better geared sage wizzies that once they get purged or chi drained, they are pretty much dead.
And lucky crits have made me 1-2 shot soooo many people, even once in NW i 2 shot the best archer in server, (in gear before anyone starts to argue)

Then again, i dont consider myself good on pvp, and before sage or demon, the most important thing is who plays the wizzie in order to know who can survive more

Adroit - Lost City · September 2013

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

from what i see in my server at least, sage wizzies drop easy, im demon, not OP geared (i mean, im ok, r9r +10 armors +12 weapon exclusive garnets) and i see that sages lack of resources to live more when purged especially. As demon, just by casting barrier again i hit 19k+ p.def after purged, that helps me a lot! Also emberstorm, stone rain when it works give me secs to escape, or start a counter attack, distanceshrink takes me off range from anyone but archers.. easy to kite pretty much anyone...
Ofc all depends on who plays, but ive seen better geared sage wizzies that once they get purged or chi drained, they are pretty much dead.
And lucky crits have made me 1-2 shot soooo many people, even once in NW i 2 shot the best archer in server, (in gear before anyone starts to argue)

Then again, i dont consider myself good on pvp, and before sage or demon, the most important thing is who plays the wizzie in order to know who can survive more

Sage stone barrier gives a ton of extra pdef as well, you have to look at the difference between them (probably ~5-10% less physical damage). Emberstorm is certainly a neat thing you guys have.. stone rain is really too unreliable to call a survival skill. Now that we've looked at yours, lets mention sage perks in terms of survival. Sage has more chi so we can triple spark to resist more often, and our triple spark gives damage reduction.. which has saved me many many times in the past. Demons are also extremely vulnerable to a purge + chi burn at the same time.. where sage wizards can often ele shell + blink away (and then maybe master li and rebuff). You actually mentioned chi drain almost like a disadvantage for sage.. which I think is really odd because this is one of the times where sage has an obvious advantage over demon. Anyway, I really don't think demons have any edge over sage wizards in terms of survival.

Crits are nice for both sage and demon, and again not exclusive for either cultivation.

Nowadays Cultivation?? demon sage opinion

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