fox form build

nihon · September 2013

Hello everyone,

the last time I played PW was about 4 years ago, and probably some things have changed since then. This time I'd like to play a fox form veno. I will be playing 100% PvM and want the character to be optimized for solo adventuring (I know the casting veno is stronger in this respect, but I want the fox ; )

My main uncertainty is whether I should go for the a heavy armor (a lot of Str, rest in Vit) and go weaponless, or put as much in Int as needed for a decent weapon and go with the robe.

Being a melee character, the heavy armor option seems more reasonable at first sight, but I'm afraid this way I won't be dealing enough damage for a solo char.
The fox form skill with its 60% Def increase seems to tell me to choose the heavy armor (and no weapon), while the melee mastery tells me to got for a magic weapon....

What's your opinion on this.

I'd also appreaciate if you had a quick look at my skill plans.

Pet Heal and Revive: Max, Tame Beast :1
Fox Form, Fox Wallop, Befuddling Mist, Leech: Max
Stunning Blow: no idea, 1?
Consume Spirit: 1 (uselessif I remember correctly)
Malefic Crush: Max (the only aoe skill)
Melee Mastery: 0 if heavy armor, Max if robe

Purge 1, Amplify Damage Max. Other curses 0
Bramble Guard 1, Bramble Hood 1
Soul Transfusion 1, Summer Sprint Max

Thanks!

DaGosta - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Light armor fox hybrids are also viable. You'll get plenty of pdef, even more if you shard with garnets, better refines than robes, and will be able to use all weapons at your level. And if you manage to get yourself a dreamchaser pack, you'll have a great set of light armor that will last you until level 70, when you can get tt70. All you'd really have to do is shard your weapons with garnets, and get phys attack rings, or if you have the cash, get 2x Seal of Eternal Solitude. 100 patk and matk, 7-8 vit and dex, and can be engraved for possible strength bonuses.

1 dex, 1 str, 3 mag per lvl would be your stat build. And if you get to end-game, can reset your stats and convert to heavy armor. That's usually how it's done, iirc. Heavy armor fox venos usually level as caster until like 90+, then reset stats and switch to heavy armor. Hybrid can get spendy though, with skills.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · September 2013

I also went HA veno because I primarily enjoy melee chars, and when forced to play a caster/ranged char I hate kiting and tend to just end up in melee range wanting to slug it out.

HA venos can still do as much 1v1 damage as a pure magic veno but we fall behind in aoe damage. Stat for a G16 magic weapon endgame and don't write off using human form since it has a few control skills (seals/stuns) and allow you to set debuffs, let your pet get aggro, and get a hit or two in before the mob gets to you.

Here's what you need to know. Heavy Armor requires 2.5 strength per level and .5 dex. Magic weapons require 3 magic. That's 6 point per level and obviously you only get 5 so you'll need to either find + stat gear like rings or tome, use an outdated weapon, or use out dated armor. Many venos find it easiest to go 1-99 as an AA veno then switch at 100 and just buy 1 big restat note. I wouldn't add vit since your HA refines will cover that.

Setup a pet to assist your The Shadou Cub is great since it has decent magic defenses (something you'll lack slightly), Pierce for debuffing pdef, and Pounce for stunning mobs.

I'd also advise carrying a few AA pieces. My HA veno looks something like this. The idea was to get near 2.86 aps with a magic sword, which has a high physical dph already so 2.86, windshield (genie skill) to 3.33 but I've been too lazy to farm more aps gear since this is actually on my caster account. Most my gear is tradable though even between accounts. If I need to cast I can go full G16 AA and jump up near 400 magic, so I'm not missing out too much in that area.

Oh, also get both Myriads (human and fox). Armor Break or Magic break happens you can swap and be deadly.

A few things you've missed: new Legendary pets, as well as evolutions for all pets. Our pets are much beefier now. New fox form that for sages get an insane amount of chi. PWI released further r9t3 as well as morai skills, both of which favor AA venos.

nihon · September 2013

thanks you two!

@DaGosta:

why do you use the notion "fox hybrids" though? where is the hybrid part ?

i actually never took light armors into consideration, but what you say sounds reasonable. however isnt literally 0 vita a little low for a melee character?

Putting as much in Int as I need for the weapon at my level, and the rest in Str (and a little Dex) to wear a decent heavy armor would not be an alternative?

(I know what the usual way of levelling a veno is (been there, done that...), but this time I'm probably going to quit around level 70, and just want to have fun playing a fox until then : )

@Sakubato:

what's your opinion on light armor+good weapon. would require 1+1+0+3 points per level which works... or do you think LA is unsuited for a fox, in comparison to a (potentially out dated) HA
(sorry, will probably seem like a very dumb question, but as said, havent played the game in ages....)

krisnda · September 2013

Also, just saying (because I didn't see anyone else mention it) but purge is "important," meaning you don't have to level it up right away, but just keep in mind that it does have its uses (more towards "end game").

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · September 2013

nihon wrote: »

@Sakubato:
what's your opinion on light armor+good weapon. would require 1+1+0+3 points per level which works... or do you think LA is unsuited for a fox, in comparison to a (potentially out dated) HA
(sorry, will probably seem like a very dumb question, but as said, havent played the game in ages....)

Not a big fan of LA.

As you can see the HA veno is nice in alot of areas, doesn't shine in any one specifically. It doesn't have any real weaknesses or strengths. LA is doesn't have any real weaknesses but it doesn't have any strength eithers. It'd pdef is medium/poor, its mdef is medium/poor, and its refine rate is medium/poor. At least with an HA build you get good pdef, good refine rate, and you can use magic ornies like -channeling and rings and it actually helps your defenses. AAs typically wear physical ornies and rings to cover their poor pdef.

I don't know if you have any coin or friends that still play pwi but its not difficult to hit level 75 in an evening and level 100 in 2 weeks because people now sell FCC rush runs. A 25 minute run can get you your first 40 levels, but will cost you a couple hundred k coin.

I also didn't comment on your skill build because you will eventually probably want all your skills:
Purge is cheap to level and reduces cd, as Krisnda said its more important endgame but I'm sure many uses can be found for it early. It only costs 100k to max.
Stunning Blow has two real uses in PvE: If an AA veno and a mob (specifically sac) catches you then you'll typically go fox form for the pdef then and kite away. Sometimes throwing the Stunning Blow gives you a nice healthy distance for 2-3 attacks before he catches you again. For fox form its mostly meant for mobs that kite you, like ranged magic mobs. If you're playing mostly melee when you get into your level 50s you'll want this because alot of ranged magic mobs start showing up.
Consume Spirit is fine to ignore.
Melefic Crush I'd ask other venos. It is your only fox aoes but I'd ignore it. Not worth the 2 sparks usually.
Bramble is actually a decent skill and I'd max it. Your damage will be pretty low for a long time and bramble will help. In a squad it also helps glue aggro to the tank which can save you.

Mostly, HA venos fall more under the "debuffer" category than dd. We're kind of nice because we're dd that is self sufficient and clerics don't need to worry about us, but most of what we're doing is using our myriads for armor/magic break, using our amp, keeping pdef debuffs up always, using our Soul Degen when Amp isn't up (or if sage as our first debuff for -20% hp), and purging bosses to keep the squad safe.

Desdi - Sanctuary · September 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mostly, HA venos fall more under the "debuffer" category than dd. We're kind of nice because we're dd that is self sufficient and clerics don't need to worry about us, but most of what we're doing is using our myriads for armor/magic break, using our amp, keeping pdef debuffs up always, using our Soul Degen when Amp isn't up (or if sage as our first debuff for -20% hp), and purging bosses to keep the squad safe.

That depends solely on your gear though. That HA Venomancer with +2 refines and crappy shards/ornaments is going to need heals like everyone else.

Same goes for the debuffer part to be honest, doesn't matter if you're HA, AA or even R999+12, if you gotta debuff; you do it.
I remember when R9 first came out and some Venomancers decided they should focus on DD because I gots top gear am so good and didn't want to do their proper job..just wanted to smack them >.>

Personally, when I leveled an alt Venomancer I decided to start with LA and restat to HA after because keeping armor and weapon up to date as HA is quite hard and you eventually choose to either let the armor or the weapon fall behind, unless you can find a lot of gear with "-requirement" but starting out as HA from level 1 is a nice challenge for some.

Here's a list of important skills and the basics about them.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · September 2013

I am a fox form veno myself (tho now finding myself more versatile and use casting more often)and Id say that for fox form use, just scrap the AA idea right away.

AA makes it easier to keep a weapon your level. But your fox form damage will be ignorable. For effective fox form use, you still need a bit of strenght and dexterity. Making LA the budget version, and HA the slightly expensive; but far superior in fox form version.

HA and LA does not give you room for pouring any points in vit at all. But both armor types give more HP per refine level than AA. With that said, HA beats LA by a mile. It is also fully possible to use a lvl 100 weapon and lvl 100 heavy armor, so damagewise you have nothing to gain on not using a weapon at all, other than a bit of extra hp. The magic sword and patakas have higher phy atk than fists and daggers. Tho you wont be able to go all 5 aps(you max out at 2.22 (2.86)). But with proper refine and enough strenght, you can have a p.atk breaking the 10k barrier with ease.

As far as I know, neither LA or AA builds can reach that kind of p.atk.

Edit: Befudding mist is also an AoE with a frontal spray.

Sayukari - Sanctuary · September 2013

This is my HA fox veno:
http://pwcalc.com/4d38155e7a428ca4

She has slightly outdated gear, since she was mostly made a debuffer for Nirvana with an extra touch. Being a melee aps fox, I had to sacrifice some defenses, mostly magic.
And I don't consider the tt99 LA ornaments good for the long run doe to lacking defenses for a slight increase of attack speed.

I started her as a HA straight from lvl1 on. Was a bit tougher till lvl60, but then my build was fully functional with up-to-lvl armor and weapon. I'd strongly advise not to start a HA veno before lvl100 though.

Sharing gears with my BM, I don't plan on updating her.
Possible updates would be:
- g16 magic sword with melee friendly stats
- replacing those OVS boots with tt99 HA boots and get a elemental cube neck instead

In case it is demanded, she can still switch to g16 AA and does decent magic damage, obviously not comparable to a pure mag veno, but that doesn't matter.

It's definitely a fun build, just keep in mind you're primarily a debuffer and magic aoe DD.

Desdi - Sanctuary · September 2013

LA would probably rely more on the critical hit ratio than the Physical Attack per se, I believe. At least I would if I was LA, especially as a Demon.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · September 2013

http://pwcalc.com/865c5e4ba2a8ce41 - My current build. Its a build thats taken over a year to get to, and its still not done b:surrender Edit: The cape looks weird cause PWcalc dun have necklace engraving available. I have a +11 vit and +10 dex engraving on my bdage)

To point out a few differences(budget aside, theres other build related things to look at)

Sayukari's build and my build both have very similar stats. Splitting power equally as far as our gear allows us to magic and strength. Thats kinda where the similarities stop. And I wanna point out the differences between the builds to show two different ways of doing it.

Sak's build pros compared to mine would be(note, comparison as if we had same budgets, but kept to similar builds as we already have):

-Higher attack rate giving superior DPS on single targets
-Superior p.def
-Probably a better tank(An assumption made from my side, as most bosses use p.atk close range and her/his higher DPS would secure aggro easier)

A build really well fitted for PvE play, and to some extent fitted for PvP as well. This is actually rather similar to my build before they released G16.

My own builds pros:

-More -chan and casting potential, higher magical DPS
-Higher magical defence
-More fitted for PvP, having a slightly more balanced defence and magical/physical damage balance and a tad more accuracy.

The differences might seem a bit small at first, but going from APS veno to my current build, drastically changed how I play in both PvP and PvE

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · September 2013

nihon wrote: »

Hello everyone,

the last time I played PW was about 4 years ago, and probably some things have changed since then. This time I'd like to play a fox form veno. I will be playing 100% PvM and want the character to be optimized for solo adventuring (I know the casting veno is stronger in this respect, but I want the fox ; )

My main uncertainty is whether I should go for the a heavy armor (a lot of Str, rest in Vit) and go weaponless, or put as much in Int as needed for a decent weapon and go with the robe.

weaponless? how do you plan to deal damage?

Being a melee character, the heavy armor option seems more reasonable at first sight, but I'm afraid this way I won't be dealing enough damage for a solo char.
The fox form skill with its 60% Def increase seems to tell me to choose the heavy armor (and no weapon), while the melee mastery tells me to got for a magic weapon....

What's your opinion on this.

I'd also appreaciate if you had a quick look at my skill plans.

Pet Heal and Revive: Max, Tame Beast :1
Fox Form, Fox Wallop, Befuddling Mist, Leech: Max
Stunning Blow: no idea, 1?
Consume Spirit: 1 (uselessif I remember correctly)
Malefic Crush: Max (the only aoe skill)
Melee Mastery: 0 if heavy armor, Max if robe

Purge 1, Amplify Damage Max. Other curses 0
Bramble Guard 1, Bramble Hood 1
Soul Transfusion 1, Summer Sprint Max

Thanks!

there is no reason to pick only some skills. again, if you don't get melee mastery, what's the point of a fox build? how would you deal damage? pet? if you let the pet do all the job, there is no reason to get HA. in fact, the best would be AA for strong heals.

nihon wrote: »

i actually never took light armors into consideration, but what you say sounds reasonable. however isnt literally 0 vita a little low for a melee character?

the vast majority plays with no points in vit. even for barbs, the vit builds are diminishing in popularity. in the end, stating vit is mostly a cost optimisation i.e. you can get same stats for cheaper.

Kittennice - Heavens Tear · September 2013

nihon wrote: »

Hello everyone,

the last time I played PW was about 4 years ago, and probably some things have changed since then. This time I'd like to play a fox form veno. I will be playing 100% PvM and want the character to be optimized for solo adventuring (I know the casting veno is stronger in this respect, but I want the fox ; )

My main uncertainty is whether I should go for the a heavy armor (a lot of Str, rest in Vit) and go weaponless, or put as much in Int as needed for a decent weapon and go with the robe.

Being a melee character, the heavy armor option seems more reasonable at first sight, but I'm afraid this way I won't be dealing enough damage for a solo char.
The fox form skill with its 60% Def increase seems to tell me to choose the heavy armor (and no weapon), while the melee mastery tells me to got for a magic weapon....

What's your opinion on this.

I'd also appreaciate if you had a quick look at my skill plans.

Pet Heal and Revive: Max, Tame Beast :1
Fox Form, Fox Wallop, Befuddling Mist, Leech: Max
Stunning Blow: no idea, 1?
Consume Spirit: 1 (uselessif I remember correctly)
Malefic Crush: Max (the only aoe skill)
Melee Mastery: 0 if heavy armor, Max if robe

Purge 1, Amplify Damage Max. Other curses 0
Bramble Guard 1, Bramble Hood 1
Soul Transfusion 1, Summer Sprint Max

Thanks!

I suggest:

Max: Purge, Bramble, Metabolic Boost (If you running low on health do a quick change into human form), Nature's Grace (for gaining mp if you do go heavy. HA you won't have much magic.), Amplify, fox form (obviously), Malefic Crush, Melee Mastery

Stunning blow is a stun skill. Its up to you if you want to stun things.
Consume spirit, I personally don't use. But its another way to generate more mana while in foxform

I would suggest getting a few caster skills but since you want solely fox, I'll leave it at that

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Stunning Blow is a freeze, not a stun. Higher level gives a longer freeze (as well as more damage), I really suggest maxing it.

I didn't find Consume Spirit useless. Sure, it doesn't hit hard and costs you HP, but at low levels where your HP isn't that high and your pet is hold aggro from you, it's handy for refilling MP in conjunction with the harder hitting Leech to recover the HP expended, without the downtime of switching forms. (You could also soul transfuse/leech, but that leaves you more vulnerable to a gank if you were very low on MP when you transfused.)

Kittennice - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Ah, freeze

Though the question is will they be holding aggro or their pet?

Honestly it doesnt take that long to switch to human then back
Soul Transfusion has a minute cooldown so if it was used already, they might be in trouble
Perhaps add Tree of Life to a genie if they fear going to human form

Whoops
Forgot Melee Mastery (This needs to be maxed)

nihon · September 2013

Hey and thanks for the vivid discussion. In the meantime I came across this thread including the following post

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I made two endgame builds centered around similar gear (difference going from LA to HA being in green/red, green for higher values and red for lower) and in fox form magic attack is the same, but to emphasize physical attacks too):

LA veno:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=181e5d22e7ea6097
HP: 7909
Phys atk: 6399-7524
Mag atk: 8117-10177
Crit: 16%
Phys def (red %): 12433 (76%)
Mag def (red %): 7213 (64%)
Accuracy: 3136
Evasion: 1450
Attack Rate: 2.22/sec

HA veno:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=054e2b8f25532898
HP: 9170 [+1261]
Phys atk: 6995-8251 [+596-727]
Mag atk: 7857-9851 [-260-326]
Crit: 13% [-3%]
Phys def (red %): 21379 (84%) [+8946 (+8%)]
Mag def (red %): 5876 (59%) [-1337 (-5%)]
Accuracy: 1960 [-1176]
Evasion: 891 [-559]
Attack Rate: 1.82/sec [-0.4-0.5/sec]

This really comes down to simply what you prefer, and any possible alts you have or will have to be able to share gear. If you have, or are going to make, an archer or sin or LA magic class to share gear with, go LA veno. If you have a BM or barb, or will have one, to share with, go HA, or if you want to share with another caster class with the option of HA/AA to switch to arcane, go HA/AA. However, just about every HA/AA veno I've met on HT, far more often than not, uses their heavy armor by default. It must be emphasized that both HA and LA can use arcane gear because the requirements of that armor are very similar to endgame magic weapons which are highly recommended regardless of choosing LA or HA.

I already have an HA veno (her own account) and that LA build is what I will be experimenting with, using mostly sin/archer's gear. If I don't like it I always have the option of using my BM/barb's gear on the same account.

The very distinguishable differences:

- HA refines better, thus more HP (largest noticeable diff favoring HA)
- Phys attack is slightly higher for HA builds because of more STR
- Mag attack is slightly higher for LA builds because of more MAG
- Phys def is moderately higher for HA builds because of more STR and HA armor
- Mag def is moderately higher for LA builds and the lower phys def and higher mag def than HA
- Accuracy, evasion, crit, and attack rate favor LA builds significantly
- HA has the option to use Arcane, but loses a good portion of HP and phys def. LA builds also have this option with similar results.

It seems to me that below the line HA and LA will deal about the same damage; HA more due to more strengh, LA more due to higher crit and higher accuary.
In the end, the argument that (until relatively late in the game) I will only be able to wear a HA for which the requirements are about 2/3 my level, will make me go for the LA.

Bramble is actually a decent skill and I'd max it. Your damage will be pretty low for a long time and bramble will help. In a squad it also helps glue aggro to the tank which can save you.

Is this also true for my bramble buffed pet? Cause I remember that casting Befuddling Mist could draw a mob's attention away from the pet and toward me, which kind of sucked. Can bramble on the pet compensate a bit?

weaponless? how do you plan to deal damage?

I remember well that this was a popular choice, at least "in the old days" ; ) Damage was dealt entirely through the skills inherent damage. This type used HA and put the rest in Vit.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver · September 2013

Bramble doesn't really give much aggro; enough to keep aggro from heals, not enough to keep aggro from any sort of attack.

Weaponless, in foxform, you're going to be doing less damage than a similar level arcane in foxform, and have extremely weak heals.

For HA, there's 3 strategies you can you can pursue: let armor lag and keep weapon up to date, let weapon lag and keep armor up to date, or invest heavily in +stat items/-req armor and/or weapons, and keep both up to date as much as possible.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver · September 2013

I changed the builds a bit, to make em more similar, and changing out the horrid sign wep with something I just put together with same stats for both

LA build(changed helmet and sword, changed stats around in the way it seemed original build was meant as, removed buffs that arent veno specific):

http://pwcalc.com/0a705b64ebb76e10

HP: 6210
Phy atk: 7197-8693(avereage at 7945)
M.atk: 10441-11755(avereage at 11098)
Crit: 17%
Physical defence: 8450(68% protection)
Magical defence: 5460(58% protection)
Accuracy: 3087
Attack rate: 2.22

Note: I noticed youve used 1st cast nirvy chest, I saw this as I already was done typing and Im lazy to go and change it all again.

HA Build:(Changed bracers to same price as LA build, changed sword like LA build, restated in similar fashion as LA)

http://pwcalc.com/d9a71ed5caae57b1

HP: 7046(up 836)
Phy atk: 8413-10189(avereage at 9301, up 1356)
M.atk: 9420-10605(avereage at 10012.5, down 1085.5)
Crit: 13%(down 4%)
Physical defence: 15719(80% protection, up 12%)
Magical defence: 4356(52% protection, 6% down)
Accuracy:1827(down 1260)
Attack rate: 2.00(down 0.22%)

Note: build can also reach 2.22 rate, either way they can both reach 2.86 with relentless courage.

Now, at first these builds dun seem that different in HP. Thats cause the armor is at +5, meaning that most of the HP comes from shards. If you highly refine both armor types, the differences becomes clearer. Accuracy is a bit meh in PvE, I dun think it even effects it at all. The heavy armor here show superior defence, and the physical attack gain is higher than the loss of magic damage. Since the physical attack hits more often than the magical ones, its actually counting for more. Especially when we think about that both builds CAN hit the same APS.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 · September 2013

Kitty's current build:http://pwcalc.com/48d703475f1fc644

Kitty tends to outdamage most casters badly with debuff-spark-autoattacking, usually hitting around 7-8,5k on [?]-bosses(enough well to have aggro from Jealous Ex at wedding where was also 5 APS sins with T3 dags). Even worse if Kitty uses genie and base pots(they are effin cheap) for keeping sparked. Maybe getting APS-parts some day to further increase DPS, but not before getting those on sin and BM first, and getting coins to get them all at once for veno as full T3's attack and def. level bonus' are worth -0.10int at least, Kitty thinks.

DaGosta - Dreamweaver · September 2013

I called it a hybrid fox build, because if you desire, using LA, you can comfortably switch between human and fox form for physical, or magical DDing. And as one of the previous replies shows, you do gain more physical capabilities as HA, but your magical capabilities drop a bit, so you end up playing more on the physical side of things. And for starting out using fox form, it's not too bad to get to learn the ropes, and then restat at at 100 for full HA.

But that's just how I feel, and how I'd do it myself.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · September 2013

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Bramble doesn't really give much aggro; enough to keep aggro from heals, not enough to keep aggro from any sort of attack.

If you consider when the post he quoted was written, the part about bramble and holding aggro was more relevant then.

fox form build

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