Looking for Player vs Player.

NigeIus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

hope i fixed ur math.

ps:now i am checking aeliahs math, i think i am taking a mistake he did..idk let me check. i based my maths on his numbers.

thing is base damage = attack multiplier x weapon attack

what you did was base damage = attack multiplier x base damage

weapon attack = damage from weapon (so on r9 axe +12 its 1800-3500) + damage from shards + damage from rings

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The reason I didnt compare on this skill or do math on this skill is because the damage from the skill isn't the point, its the proc of the skill the +35% crit which what I was highlighting and how this is what makes pure str builds viable.

well a full vit could use sunder + arma then lol or bestial + arma

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well a full vit could use sunder + arma then lol or bestial + arma

Apo I'm guessing you didn't read my prior post b:chuckle b:surrender

My point was both vit and str can use arma sunder w/e but str build hits hard enough to use everything else. E.g. if a vit build hits 2k on a normal hit using a random skill, then this as a GoF is 8k whereas str build would be 3k normal and 12k GoF. Quite a big difference.

GoF is rare? Then even normal crits 4k vs 6k as at 60+ % crit this is almost expected.

NigeIus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

even more, u should just talk about doing double dmg. since the proc of sacrificial strike is 20%, if u have 60% crit, u might have 80% chances to do a double dmg hit. and here is where the barbs str remains. that they can hit like a wizard/psyc and being HA, same that happen wiht sins or seekers. in the other hand..bms cant go pure build QQ

Nige pls stop doing math b:chuckle

If crit rate is 60% and zerk chance is 20% then zerk crit chance is 0.6x0.2=0.12 = 12%

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nige pls stop doing math b:chuckle

If crit rate is 60% and zerk chance is 20% then zerk crit chance is 0.6x0.2=0.12 = 12%

i counted zerk as if it were a cirt. not that both thing happen at the same time..duh...

thast why i said, if u just talk about double dmg and if u count zerk as a double dmg and crit as a double dmg. not that it happen both at the same time.

Ah I did forget about arma only using half hp (half mp too, which is almost negligible but does add a bit) that was a fairly large oversight. I probably didn't tick off axe and hammer mastery either.

I'm not sure I understand the math behind how an ordinary skill damage is calculated, but experience tells me that nothing has ever hit me nearly as hard as arma, which lest we forget, can zerk-crit just like every other skill a barb has.

The vit and str builds I had were identical save for the 220 spare stat points going into str instead of vit. Thinking about it again, there is a lot of strength points deriving from the tome, neck, and helm, and so a pure vit build could stat some of those out, making it somewhat more more than 220 points that could go into vit, probably closer to 300. And I was using the assumption of sage blood bath, but of course demon blood bath lowers hp more, and you could get a stronger (but more likely to miss) arma if you skip blood bath entirely.

While demon can certainly get the crits easier, sage gains chi enormously easier nowadays than demon, though that wasn't necessarily the topic of this discussion (on my alt sage barb, I can gain roughly 25 chi every 3 seconds if I'm switching forms and getting a getting a single hit in while in a form for 3 seconds (maybe alacrity of the beast and stun)J, though realistically a barb standing there hitting nothing still gains 20 chi every seconds, or a spark in 15 seconds. This means more opportunities to use arma probably. And thinking about it some more, the whole 'ideal' of the vit build is to be tanky and safely use your ultimate skill more times, which supports sage again, because their arma is safer (35% hp and mp consumed instead of 50 = you can use it without ticking charm much more often) and you are a lot tankier in tiger form. Lest we forget, Jans is sage, and if I'm not very much mistaken, he's definitely not pure strength build, but I haven't used an eye of observation so I could be wrong.

If we assume that a demon barb doesn't have as much access to chi, then its safe to say they'll have fewer opportunities to arma in general, so they'd be more often looking to heavy dps, and a str build certainly does do that better. That being said, I think there are four combinations that can be looked at: vit build-sage, vit build-demon, str build-sage, and str build-demon. The ones people classically go for, I believe, are vit build-sage and str build-demon, which fit in with the ideal strategies for the vit and str builds. The sage provides more survivability and safer and more frequent arma opportunities, while the demon provides more crits and thus more dps.

My experience tells me that fighting a barb who tries to purge then arma more frequently (Jans) is more dangerous than a barb who hits harder but tries to heavy dps more often (The_Plague, Melonheads). BigCojones for whatever reason hardly ever leaves tiger form, so while I imagine his arma hits like a semi truck, I've never had much opportunity to defend against it.

A lot of the damage from a barb comes from their genie too. Every barb worth their salt has a pure strength genie, and that makes for a very powerful tangling mire debuff. If we assume that a vit build has more survivability, they should in theory be able to use their genie far more offensively, which could help increase their average dmg to something not so far behind a str build. This is something else that really can't be calculated though, because it has to do with playstyle.

With regards to playstyle, I believe willingness to use arma is a fairly important factor. A lot of the deadliness of Jans is that he attempts arma at almost every opportunity that presents itself with little hesitation. Playstyle? Safe arma because its sage? More chi on average to expend? Less tanky gear so he has less to lose? Who knows. The better geared the barb I fight, the less I find they tend to use arma. I believe they think it is too risky, and as a demon with an almost guaranteed charm tick, it certainly would be. However I'm a firm believer that there are some people you cannot kill without risk. Fighting some people, I'm going to have to triple spark on my cleric, and of course that is a risk, because I might not have the chi to use defensive skills if my offensive play goes wrong. But its a tradeoff of course, I get a short offense spike for a loss of defense.

A str build barb, their whole build is kinda like that; they've permanently given up some survivability for a good gain in offense (except arma). In theory a vit barb can use their survivability as a weapon to play more offensively, taking more risks and expending less chi to survive the enemies attacks. In a recent fight I had against Melonheads, I was forcing him to use chi to invoke frequently, and to escape my sleep/immobilize lock he was forced to use chi on anti-stun skill frequently. Its plausible that he simply didn't have enough chi to use arma as frequently as he would have liked to.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Anyways we've done the math shown the numbers, if you refuse to believe those then we can't help you b:bye

not like i prefer str or vit but, the maths that have been done were wrong, especially on the sunder vs arma :P

bigdoodledorris wrote: »

I think a zerk crit on you would end up being alot more than 4k, we both know it, archer are squishy players, am ok with proving that a zerk crit on a normal skill against you would produce alot more than 4000 damage if you are ;0

watch it again?

Alternatively provide a charm; I'm more than happy to prove I can kite you endlessly and you are unable to DPS through my charm tick with out arma. b:cute

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

actually that's wrong.
20% chance to zerk -> 80% chance not to zerk
60% chance to crit -> 40% chance not to crit

chance to neither crit nor zerk = (chance not to zerk) x (chance not to crit)
= 0.4*0.8 = 0.32 or 32%
chance to either crit or zerk = 1 - (chance to neither crit nor zerk) = 0.68 or 68%

in other words:

zerk	no zerk
crit	0.12	0.48
no crit	0.08	0.32

funny how zerkcritting happens more than no-crit zerking XD

Bravo Thanos!

However I must correct something! Call it OCD

Chance to either zerk or crit = 1 - (chance to neither zerk or crit) - (chance to zerk AND crit) = 0.56 or 56% as per your table b:chuckle

the really spooky part is that I was thinking about zerks and crits yesterday...

So much math and possibilities of this and that... All stonk wants is someone to play with, I am sure if he wanted to write down numbers he would be doing something else not actually playing the game