Looking for Player vs Player.

Every time u lose u have an excuse You are entitled to your view and I am mine But now I have no respect for your constent excusses every time you lose Say what u will but im content with my point being made.

While I agree with The_Plague regarding stonk making excuses for a loss, I will say I agree with the idea that a vit build is probably better for a barb.

1) Vit = hp = stronger arma. An age-old argument that just doesn't grow old. 7 out of 10 classes are easily killed by vit-barb arma's. Armageddon is one of a very few skills of any class that is capable of bypassing my charm without any additional debuffs needed.

2) Vit = hp = more survivability

3) Vit = magic+phy defense; str = phy def only; barb's wear heavy armor and have no skill to increase magic defense (like a bm) or defense lvl buffs (like a seeker). A barb relies on their hp to protect them, and without vit, they don't have the hp or the magic defense to survive arcanes

To put it into perspective, when I fight Melonheads on my cleric, a full jades mostly +11 to +12 str build r9rr barb, I can almost do enough dmg to kill without having to spark. In a recent 10 minute fight I didn't manage to kill him because he used all of his defense skills most excellently (solid shield, ad, invoke, ironguard, and simply kiting away), but if he were, for example, afk, I could push through his hp without needing to spark.

Compare to BigCojones: a similarly geared (bit better refines) but vit build r9rr barb, I can triple spark with a full stack of healing debuffs, and unless I get a few crits, the damage still won't be enough. TRIPLE SPARK. The difference is that big.

Neither of these barbs can really kill me without arma. Given this, I have to give the edge to the vit-build barb. He has a better chance of surviving me AND an equally good chance at killing me. At worst for him the fight is a draw, at best a victory. The str build barb can definitely lose, and he can win though his strongest tool isn't quite as effective, its still strong enough in most cases.

Just my opinion anyways.

A strength build barb definitely does do a lot of damage, and if they are fighting people that aren't geared well, their ordinary skills will be more deadly to that person. In that respect, a strength barb can and will be successful.

But the flip side of this is that a vit barb should gain more survivability than their loss of ability to kill others. So in theory a vit barb should have a better kill to death ratio. A lot more fights will end in draws, and the ones that don't should be more victories than defeats.

Naturally I'm biased; everybody has their own perspective. My perspective is that of a really well geared endgame character, thinking about fighting either a strength or vit barb. Fighting the strength barb, I'll either kill him or he'll kill me. Fighting the vit barb, we'll either draw, or he'll kill me.

It seems pretty simple to me; even a vit barb does have enough damage to kill me. A vit barb can have a purge pole just like a str barb, and a vit barb will survive longer to get more hits off with it (that and the 100 skill of course) which means more purge chances. A vit barb WILL have a harder hitting armageddon. Armageddon IS the hardest hitting skill in the game.

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Here are some pwcalcs that shed some light onto the matter. These are taken with standing form in, hp buff in, sage titans, and sage blood bath (ie, the circumstances under which we'd expect barbs to be potentially using arma.

r9rr pure vit build with jades +12 refines

hp: 37,647
phy attack: 11561-20600 (average physical attack 16081)
phys def: 20915 (83% reduction)
mag def: 11795 (74% reduction)
def lvl: 111

r9rr pure str build with jades +12 refines

hp: 31,220
phy attack: 15827-28268 (average physical attack 22047)
phy def: 21960 (84% reduction)
mag def: 9819 (70% reduction)
def lvl: 111

r9rr pure vit build with +10 vit stones +12 refines

hp: 43359
phy attack: 11561-20660 (average physical attack 16081)
phy def: 23140 (85% reduction)
mag def: 13550 (76% reduction)
def lvl: 63

(Arguably an even deadlier arma, but some rough math shows that gaining 15% hp while losing 48 defense lvls is too poor a tradeoff, and will negate the advantages of the jade+vit build, which is being very tanky to generate opportunities to arma.)

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Some info about sage arma: inflicts 5000 physical dmg + 4.0 additional dmg for each hp and mp expended. channel 0.4 seconds, cast 1.8 seconds.

Difference in strengths of arma, raw #s:

vit build = 5000+(4*37,647) = 155588
str build = 5000+(4*31,220) = 129880
difference in % = 155558/129880 = 1.197 = ~ 20% harder hitting arma for vit barb

Difference in average physical attack, raw #s

vit build = 16081
str build = 22047
difference in % = 22047/16081 = 1.37 = ~37% more physical dmg for str barb

Difference in survivability, defined as being the extra hp % and magic defense % and physical defense % of vit vs. str build

vit build hp = 37647
str build hp = 31220
difference in % = 37647/31220 = 1.205 = ~ 21% more hp

vit build magic def = 11795 (74% reduction)
str build magic def = 9819 (70% reduction)
difference in % reduction = 4% more for vit build

vit build phy def = 20915 (83% reduction)
str build phy def = 21960 (84% reduction)
difference in % reduction = 1% more for str build

summation for vit build: +20% hp + 4% magic reduction - 1% physical reduction = 23% more survivability (a very rough calculation as you'll no doubt appreciate, but still, allowing for wiggle room, a significant #)

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In short, we have the following info:

vit barb: 23% more survivability, 20% harding hitting arma
str barb: 37% more physical attack

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And this is, again, where bias inevitably comes in. It goes without saying that either a strength barb or a vit barb will waste anybody else who isn't somewhat similarly geared. Thus I think it reasonable to limit discussion to equally well geared opponents.

In such cases, we have to ask ourselves, is a barbs normal physical damage enough? From personal experience, a barb, whether str or vit, rarely ever bypasses my charm with anything except the skill armageddon; and I am an arcane. It is probably a decent assumption, then, that most other arcane classes and particularly light and heavy armor classes, who should have more physical defense, are even less susceptible to being charm-bypassed with damage that doesn't derive from arma.

If we make this assumption, then we have a scenario in which a barb, if they aren't using arma, kills their opponents with a series of hits that is essentially dps, looking something like 'hit hit hit (tick charm) hit hit hit hit hit hit dead' (I refer to this as 'heavy dps'; this is the way that most r9rr physical dder kills heavy armor/very tanky people in pvp fights).

The question then arises, is a barb, whether vit or str build, going to do enough damage for this approach to work? This is less easily answered, but again my personal experience (biased by my playstyle, level of skill, skill of opponents) says usually not. Without question either a vit or str build barb could kill me with this sort of 'heavy dps' (particularly if we assume they whack away with purge pole first) if I were afk and not reacting. My arcane, inate physical defense is low, my hp is low. They both can manage it, though naturally the vit build might have to single or double spark, or use windshield, something. But being killed in this matter is very rare. Heavy dps takes a fair bit of time to get in all the hits, and barbs aren't known for having a particularly good stun lock (any control lock is heavily dependent on occult ice and luck).

How does nearly every kill from a barb arise? Short answer: arma. Why arma? Because arma can BYPASS CHARM. RELIABLY. And, most importantly, QUICKLY.

Lets assume a scenario where my hp is approaching half. If a str build barb is trying to heavy dps me to death, I have, lets say, average 4-5 seconds of time to react and figure out a way to heal myself, put a shell in, what have you, to protect against maybe average 4-5 hits from the barb.

In comparison, if the barb were planning an arma, which if I'm smart I have to assume he is, I'll have very little time to react. How much time? Arma takes a total of 2.2 seconds to complete. If we assume an average reaction time of 0.2 seconds, a ping of 0.3 seconds, I have 1.7 seconds in which to figure out how to block what could very well be a fatal hit. The factors I have to take into consideration are my buffs, debuffs, my hp, my genie energy, apoth cooldown, and other defensive skills available, and then in that 1.7 seconds, choose the proper course of action and have it complete before arma finishes casting. Significantly more tricky than if I had 4-5 seconds to avoid fatal heavy dps.

Now with a str barb having 37% more dmg than a vit barb, we can assume that if a str barb took, say, 4 hits to kill, a vit barb would need more like 6-7 hits to accomplish the same thing; something less likely to be pulled off inside of charm cooldown. Thus the option of heavy dps is less likely to work for a vit barb, and they would need to rely more on arma to kill people.

Can a vit barb generate as many opportunities to get my hp near the danger zone (near half hp?) As it turns out, ... they almost can. This is where the difference in how hard arma hits comes into play.

Arbitrarily (not really, based on experience) if we assume that, when I'm debuffed with penetrate armor but still have my physical defense buff, arma hits for 9k crit from a str build fully refined barb, then the danger zone for me 9000/16600 = 0.54; in other words, anywhere between 50-54% of my hp is DANGER ZONE. In other words, for me, I'm usually pretty safe; the odds of landing the previous hit so that my hp lands within that 4% where my hp will be a nudge above half are pretty poor; usually the barb, if aiming for that region, will overshoot it.

Now we assume that instead of 9k crit, a vit build barb has an arma that does 9k*1.2 = 10800. 10800/16600 = 0.65; in other words, anywhere between 50% and 65% of my hp is DANGER ZONE under the circumstances where I'm debuffed but not purged. That window of hp is 11% larger and much easier for a barb to get into when aiming to use an armagedon.

Tangling mire, tree of protection, and purge can all greatly increase the range of the DANGER ZONE, but the fact remains that a vit barb's DANGER ZONE for arma will be significantly larger on anybody.

Basically, while a vit barb does hit significantly less, they don't have to get my hp nearly as low before they can set up for a killing blow. To reach the 65% value, they have to chew through about 35% hp, or 0.35*16600 = 5810 hp, which is able to be accomplished. within several seconds of a stun.

A str barb can reach my half hp mark faster, but are much more likely, in my experience, to overshoot and tick my charm, putting me at full hp and safe from an arma.

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And so far I've only discussed the offensive differences; but lest we forget there is a roughly 23% greater survivability for the vit barb. This is kind of important! If I manage to whittle a barb to half hp, a tempest crit would have to hit 11.5% harder on a vit barb to bypass his charm. If my tempest simply doesn't hit hard enough, then I'd be forced to heavy dps through the barbs hp. I've already explained why this is problematic; the barb will have a lot of time to react to the incoming damage and decide how to block it if it poses a threat, or, if it doesn't, to just ignore it and go on the offensive (something a vit barb will be more often in a position to do, because they are tankier).

A tankier barb will survive longer; a barb that survives longer will have more chances to purge me, more chances to attempt arma, and because they are, in fact, more tanky, and because its more of a sure thing, arma isn't as risky for them as it is for a str barb.

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What is comes down to is that, a str barb generates more opportunities to heavy dps but has to contend with less survivability and more time for the enemy to react to his combos.

A vit barb has to live with lower damage and fewer opportunities to heavy dps, but has the luxury of greater survivability and a more deadly arma. Fights will be longer, but the longer the fighter, the more he is favored to win.

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I think honestly, having done this calculation, each build has its place depending on your playstlyle and who you are looking to kill in a fight. A str barb will gather more kills from more ordinary people faster than a vit barb could. A vit barb may be able to dispatch more efficiently people that heavy dps doesn't work well on (imagine trying to heavy dps a mystic, who can heal 10k hp in a fraction of a second!)

And don't you dare give me tl;dr, that would be obscenely rude, lol. If you didn't read, don't bother commenting either. I put a lot of time into researching this to present my findings here.

Aeliah

Azzazin, thank you for the numbers! b:dirty

I look forward to reading this in detail, I'm never one to call tl:dr, but I am doing this from my phone atm due to being at work. Will edit in my response in a few hours. But from skimming I have noticed you assumed sage arma whereas both barbs in question here are demon.

Will edit a response befitting such a detailed analysis soon. Apologies.

why are u all saying a barb should hit wiht armagedon?thats not their nuke skill...at least not the #1

vit barbs remains in arma.

str barbs remains in sunder.


thats the diference between both build. if u guys didnt know this, idk what game u were playing.

aeliah ur math is correct but u are missing that str barbs should kill wiht sunder and not wiht arma. well arma is always a good hit,but for str barbs sunder>>>>arma.

bigdoodledorris wrote: »

You must be high as a kite if you think sunder is a threat to anyone with reasonable gear. Lol, maybe in 2008 when 1 crit with sunder was enough to 1 shot the opposition sure, not anymore. I hope you are trolling.

forgot u have r8r LOL get r9rr and u will relize sunder is better than arma

bigdoodledorris wrote: »

I have both, GL getting 30 defense levels on r9rr wep bud. WTS versatility Sunder is not better than arma please stop trollin

have you calculated it?

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

have you calculated it?

naa he made pwi, and he know it couse he programed this game b:thanksb:thanks

stonk, dont be more noob, sunder>arma for demon barbs wiht str build and end game weapon.

Yes I 11.9k crit u GOF but it wasn't sunder that did this it was Mighty Swing and mire was on but was Pen armor not devour

Also As a demon barb sunder is a set up skill we kill with the right string of Crits O sunder gives me 100% crit for my nxt 2 skills.

taking aeliah's number to compare sunder in a str barb and arma in a str build barb.



r9rr pure str build with jades +12 refines

hp: 31,220
phy attack: 15827-28268 (average physical attack 22047)
phy def: 21960 (84% reduction)
mag def: 9819 (70% reduction)
def lvl: 111

dmg wiht arma: (this is what aeliah wrote)

str build = 5000+(4*31,220) = 129880


demon sunder: dealing base
physical damage plus 300% of weapon damage and bleed status for 12 segs dealing 9245, also it gives all crit shoots during 5 segs.
wont consider the bleed neither the crit, just the dmg from weapon and base dmg.

base damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack

for barbs attk multiplier is:

attack multiplier = 1 + ( Str / 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs
str=780
weapon mastery=75%=0.75
phys attk buffs=40%=0.4

attk multiplier=7.35

then base dmg=7.35 * 22047= 162045,45 dmg

now sunder is = base dmg+3*22047=228186,45

sunder=228186,46 dmg
arma=129880 dmg

sunder/arma=1.75.

to sum up, sunder do 1.75 times more dmg than armagedon for a str build barb. not even considering the bleed, the critical hits u cna land after using sunder, that u can be in tiger form (wiht the hp and phys def in tiger form and the movement u gain)


stonk, next time do some math :P


ps:aeliah ur link to ur str barb is not working idk why, i used ur vit build and converted it into str one. hope u geared both equial. if thats not the case then there will be some mistakes in my marth here.

ps1: now wiht aeliah's number and my numbers some1 could compare sage arma vs demon sunder, for str build and vit build :P but i am not gonna do that LOL

i think its just a difference of gameplay

edit : its been known for years (at least for players who tried it) that barbs (str or vit) are one of the strongest in 1v1 situation. but they got so much QQ during the aps era, everyone forgot or never saw it

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

OK Azzazin; I'm not too great at multi quoting etc so bear with me.

Firstly I've redone the calc's (one of the links you provided wasnt working) and my numbers came out different to yours (demon buffs and you hadnt included axe & hammer mastery on the str build i'm assuming?)

Demon R9rr +12 JoSD Vit build

HP - 38390
P-att 11674-20853 (avg 16264)
Pdef 20564
Mdef 12461
deflvl 111
crit 29%
survivability index 273381

Demon R9rr +12 JoSD Str build

HP - 30059
P- att 17409-31082 (avg 24,246)
Pdef 21966
Mdef 9805
deflvl 111
crit 29%
survivability index 207574

Survivability calc by Asterelle

Some comparisons then between the two

Survivability - Vit build is 32% more survivable than str build
Damage output - Str build hits on avg 49%!!!! more

Arma calculations
Vit build vs Str build arma hits 28% more (pretty obvious considering the builds)

Now comparing the two, based solely on arma - yes the vit build is better. But...!

Demon Beastial Onslaught (cooldown 8 seconds, zero chi cost)
-Launch your solidified courage at an enemy within 12.0 meters,
inflicting 100% weapon damage plus 3600.0 and reducing their
evasion by 50% for 8 seconds.
Also increases your critical hit rate for 6 seconds.

Demon version grants 35% increased critical hit rate for 6 seconds!

This makes things a tad bit interesting.

A str barb hitting nearly 50% harder than a vit barb, with an almost permanent 64% crit rate (comparable to r9rr archers!), with a GoF weapon = Expect a lot of hard hitting zerk/normal crits.

This is why to say demon str builds isn't 'viable' is pure lunacy by Stonk. b:shocked

The survivability reduction sure, makes str barbs weaker than vit barbs, but let's keep this in perspective, this is still a freaking barb we are talking about, they have a myriad of defensive skills to use and still have a butt tone of HP regardless of build.

The difference then is that, the vit build has no option but to use arma, everything else on an endgame similarly geared opponent wont do enough damage to bypass/dps through charm.

The DEMON str build however needs to be more careful and skilled to survive granted, but allows a more deadly flexible DPS playstyle that can offer more options to kill than just tank tank ToP arma miss damn try again.

If you suppress chi it REALLY hurts a vit build who has no option but to use arma, but vs a str build its annoying but with skill and experience they can still DPS most if not all similar geared classes to death. Ofc you still need to set this up, purges, penetrate armour/devour etc but it's alot more viable. Or guess what they can still ToP arma.

I've seen both types of barbs, a good gear wise comparison I think is Jans and Biggie, Jans is alot more deadly than Biggie and from the other end probably a hell of a lot more fun to play in 1v1 PK. This is a game after all.

My two cents. Hopefully did your post justice. If any of my math or calcs are wrong, apologies shoot me. b:chuckle

some math for ○Bestial Onslaught since dark didnt do it.

for pure str barb, the one that aeliah made:

Onslaught is=100% weapon dmg+3600=1*22047+3600= 25647

as u can see, demon arma on a pure str build does more dmg than onslaught in a pure str demon barb.

u didnt have to compare wiht this skill, this isnt a nuker skill.

u should read my previus post where i compared arma vs sunder. there u can give the reasons why str build is better than vit buidl. ofc at the end it will depend on the person behind the toon. but what i wanted to point is that arma isn the biggest skill for barbs. it is good, but sunder>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arma (if u are str build barb)

some math for ○Bestial Onslaught since dark didnt do it.

for pure str barb, the one that aeliah made:

Onslaught is=100% weapon dmg+3600=1*22047+3600= 25647

as u can see, demon arma on a pure str build does more dmg than onslaught in a pure str demon barb.

u didnt have to compare wiht this skill, this isnt a nuker skill.

u should read my previus post where i compared arma vs sunder. there u can give the reasons why str build is better than vit buidl. ofc at the end it will depend on the person behind the toon. but what i wanted to point is that arma isn the biggest skill for barbs. it is good, but sunder>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arma (if u are str build barb)