Tons of Questions 2

PlsStahp - Sanctuary
PlsStahp - Sanctuary Posts: 20 Arc User
edited August 2013 in Blademaster
Okay, after part one, ive geared up, participated in moar PvP instances like random duels, NW and training to kill my cleric which is macroed to kill me. b:laugh


Now, im built up like this http://pwcalc.com/3a5d1372fd001ed0 - fist

http://pwcalc.com/a0c0ff5585db5062 - axe


Marrows


So ive been doing FCC daily with my guildies and realized that marrows make a huge difference between life and death during pulls so ive been marrowing more since. Also, marrows saved me from being a one-shot in NW lately.

Question 1: Lets say you are runnnig into a group of 3 mag 3 phy mobs, is it wise to use marrows at all? I was thinking about using phy marrows first during the melee attacks then immediately use magic marrow when the magic mobs cast their spell after which i stun the lot with RoTP. Is this a feasible strategy or is going marrowless better for me in this scenario?


Question 2: Mystics are weird, do they actually deal physical damage or magic damage? Do i use magic marrows or physical marrows on them in a 1v1 situation?


Question 3: Seekers are weird too, which marrow should i be using on them because they hit SO hard and theyre ranged. How do i protect myself by using marrows?


Gear


After upgrading from a mish-mash of TT70 and TT80 armor, ive gotten better, stronger eq ever since, but i feel that i lack something; something important which is M.Def.


Question 1: Should i replace the belt or the sky demon pearl for mdef? i have a +5 percussion necklace order lying around and i really dont wanna sacrifice the 5% hp increase. Any suggestions? I pretty much have about 10mil to spend so the cube necklace is out of the question.


Question 2: What tome should i be getting? Str or Dex? Im using fists like 7/10 of the time so dex seems logical but my aoes do **** damage so im in a dilemma.


Question 3: So i got a caturma the other day for a steal, what nirvy path should i be going into? the windpour nirvanas with -0.10 int or the heaven sparkle with no int? Peak of Clouds or Traceless Dimension with almost the same roll stats? Which would be a better choice cost wise?


Question 4: Deicides. How does the soul infect work? does it work on bosses in instances? Is it even worth getting? i heard i will still get the same aps when sparked using either the gorenox or the deicides and many have said that gorenoxes out-damage deicides due to its revenge.




So thats it for now, ill post more soon!! Help will be greatly appreciated and loved :D b:thanks
Post edited by PlsStahp - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Marrows:
    Question 1:     Kind of have to play this by ear. You could combine demon bell for the +150% pdef bonus prior to running in with magic marrow and be protected against both decently well. You could use no marrow, which is typically preferred as the safe way. Or you could run in with magic marrow, kill the 3 magic mobs, then swap to phys marrow for the 3 phys mobs.

    Question 2: Mystics are magical. Their pets are physical but usually killed with a Drake's Ray. Keep Magic marrow up.

    Question 3: Seekers I rarely marrow except in a few situations. If they use Fortify/Crimson Powder -> QpQ to magic debuff me I know a magic attack is probably coming, but alot of them still use Gemini Slash instead, which is physical. They use Blade Affinity to quickly QpQ the debuffs onto you and so naturally follow it with their hardest hitting, but slowest attack. Still, I'd rather have mag marrow on during that situation since my bm would still have good phys def but horid (1 shotable) mdef.

    The other situation I use it for is if I want to stick around while they've Edge Blurred. Edged Blur is metal damage and is easy just to kite off/ or leap back if they've frozen you, but sometimes you want to hang out and tank it. Usually this is in TW and I'm stun-aoeing a crowd of people and don't want lose my position for crowd control/aoe. In this case I should already be mag marrowed cause its group pvp, but if not the edged blur is a good reminded to put it on.

    Gear
    Question 1:     Replace the belt. The neck refines better and the hp helps against magic attacks at least. A very cheap option is to do your chrono and each map that opens offers a decent belt (option of phys or mag). Paradise Sachet.. Completely free if you do your chrono, which you need 100 to do, though. The jade of Heaven is available sooner for opening the third map.

    Question 2: Ultimately you'll want a -int tome like a Pan Gu's or a L:UaD, but for now I suggest a dexterity tome. The reason is you want 200 dex at endgame, but often people stat 200 dex, then get better gear like tt99/G16 which have dex on them or ring/neck engravings. Then they want to remove the dex over 200 and put it in strength. Easiest way to do that is just to change tomes in an even trade. Bye bye dex, hello strength, no restat cost.

    Question 3: Caturma's will make bound G13, G15, and G16 pieces, which if you're okay with that then it's a great route. The difference between fists and claws is their range, and fists have a slightly lower dex requirement and slightly higher str (like 5 point difference). Their attack speed and average damage are the same, though. Fists will give you more consistent damage, claws will give you more spike, but they average to the same. The stats required also doesn't make a difference for most people since we go to 200 or 203 dex either way (Windpour/Regicides have a dex req of 203 but it goes back down to 193 for G15 and G16).

    G13: Regicides have -int, Soul Infect, and vit. Heaven Sparkles have +attack, crit, and vit and suck. Go for the -int on Regicides.
    G15: Traceless Dimensions can get unique add-ons of Revenge or Blood Vengeance and gives +50% weapon damage and heal you. Dance of Goddess can get Berserk or Frenzied Rage and give +100% weapon damage but curse you to take more damage (double?). Since 50% weapon damage was like 9-15% more dps the berserk/FR isn't worth it imo. 20% more dd and mobs hit you twice as hard vs 10% more dd and 5% heals constantly, claws was the easy choice.
    G16: They pull from the same add-on pool and the only real difference is the damage range: spike vs consistant. I like the spike damage.

    For me it was claw all the way.

    Question 4:     Soul Infect lowers the max hp of the mob by 10% when it procs. So if the mob has 1mil hp, when it procs it drops to 900k. If they had 1m when it proced they just lost 100k in 1 hit. If they only had 500k when it procs the proc didn't effect it. It's great for high hp boss, like TT, when a 9m hp boss drops to 8.1m in about 2 seconds, and at 5 aps it procs very quickly. It's also useful in pvp because it stays active for a while (20 seconds or more, iirc) and shortens the distance to kill an opponent, even if they're charms are ticking.

    For GVs (Gorenox Vanities) vs Deicides Check the archer forums or google it. They've done alot of work on it with good math and debates. For us, I don't think Gorenox ever out dd Deicides because we're strength based and Deicides have the larger base damage and refine rate, plus attack speed. For archers they may only have 140 or 150 strength and no fist mastery, just Blazing Arrow, so they only have about 1.5 damage multipliers for their claws, so a +50% weapon proc is a big difference. For us, with 350-400 str in the 90s, and a 60-75% mastery we ave 3x-4.5x multipliers and another .5 isn't as big of a deal. Triple sparks (500% weapon damage) also make a huge difference, and revenge proc becomes pretty insignificant while a good base damage and refine rate gets multiplied 5x. Archers also miss out on bloodpaint, another reason they like GV instead of Deicides.

    You also have to wait for GV to proc, while Deicide damage is constant. Once it procs the revenge damage is active like 98% of the time at 5 aps, but if you're going mob to mob and letting the revenge proc die between them then it probably wont be active over half the time.

    Deicides are better. Between more aps, more chi, easier sparks, increased damage per hit, mobs dieing quicker, and stronger paint heals they've better for us. Its debatable for archers.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear
    Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Marrows.
    Question 1.
    (i) BM's are naturally more vulnerable to magic attacks than to physical attack because of the lack of magical defenses. Hence, magic marrow will more likely reduce -overall- damage in majority of situations. Also, there are more p-def buffs than m-def buffs: illustration: bell & vanguard gives enough p-def (60% + 60%) to counter the negative effects of marrow (-120%).
    (ii) Because magic mobs are ranged, they will always attack before melee mobs. Hence, whenever you are pulling multiple groups in long halls, you will get hit by a lot of magical attacks while you can outrun most melee mobs just by using sprints. Magic marrow is preferred here.
    (iii) If you do the pulls just right, you can make all the magic mobs to group up in a tight spot (e.g run ahead, wait a bit for them to catch up, then run back to melee range). At melee range, most magic mobs will switch to melee attacks. Go for p-marrow maximum defence. If you see them start channeling again, stun them (if available) and continue aoe-smashing them till they drop first.

    Questions 2. Mystics' damage are primarily magical

    Question 3.
    Seekers have skills that deals both metal attacks and physical attacks. It preferable not to use any marrow as good seekers will just turn the situation in their favour. Best way to protect yourself is to keep them stun-locked >.>

    As a last note, the key to using marrow efficiently is to know what you are up against. Don't use any if you are doing a pull for the first time. Use you combat log to check numbers on which mobs is doing the most damage and use the appropriate marrow next time (combat log can be activated under system settings -> Chat tab)

    Gear Question 4:
    Deicide >> Gorenox Vanity.
    (i) While triple-sparked, you deal over 1000% weapon. Revenge procs accounts for 50% weapon damage, which translate to 5% actual damage for 10secs. The buffs will be on 86% of the time. But is still not enough to outdamage deicide (which has 6%~ish more base damage than gorenox)
    (ii) The amount heal from revenge is small (if not negligible) compared to blood paint, heal from triple-spark.
    (iii) Eventually, the extra interval will make it easier and cheaper to get perma-spark (4.0/5.0 aps) with TT99 gears/stage 2 pants.
    (iv) Soul infect is great on those high hp bosses. Once, the maximum hp goes down, the boss will never regen the hp loss even after the debuff is gone.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Soul infect sucks because you overwrite sharpened tooth arrow (15-20%) and Bloodvow (18%)

    #ArcherProblems
    Channels

    youtube .com/user/WallyPWS Active

    youtube .com/user/tehnewblife Semi Inactive
  • PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver
    PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,507 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Soul infect sucks because you overwrite sharpened tooth arrow (15-20%) and Bloodvow (18%)

    #ArcherProblems

    don't forget the exp junkies qqing about lost exp b:avoid
    you only purge once #yopo
  • CapnK - Sanctuary
    CapnK - Sanctuary Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Mystic damage is all magical with the exception of Absorb Soul. Which is extremely slow and obvious when it is being cast.

    90% of the Seekers you run into in NW use nothing but magic attacks, so I'd recommend Magic Marrow.

    Question about Demon Marrows: are overall defenses unmarrowed comparable to when using marrows? Because on my sage BM my defenses are much higher overall in magic marrow so there's never really a time I'd want to be unmarrowed.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Soul infect sucks because you overwrite sharpened tooth arrow (15-20%) and Bloodvow (18%)

    #ArcherProblems

    Doesn't matter if you overwrite it. If the boss has 1m hp and they STA for 20% it drops them to 800k/800k. If you then overwrite it the bosses max hp goes up to 900k, but his actual hp still stays at 800k. Just because his max hp went up his actual hp will stay at the lowest reduced amount.

    And BV can be overwritten 99% of the time anyways once you have demon HF. BV is a 25% curse, HF is a 100% curse. HF is 4x more powerful of an amp. BV works great during HFs cd but if there is a BM in squad then they shouldn't use BV at the start. Especially if you're combining debuffs like EP an pdef debuff. Lets say you have 20% EP and 28% pdef debuff, with HF you'd be doing 307% damage but with BV only 192%.

    What was being said about Soul Infect/STA reducing xp is you gain xp based on the % of the mobs hp you actually damaged. So if your boss has 1m hp and your Soul Infect procs on the first hit and removes 10% hp, then you deal 900k damage and kill, you'll get 90% xp from that boss. If you deal 150k damage before Soul Infect procs and drops the bosses hp to 850/900k and then you do the last 850k you have dealt 1m/1m damage and will get the full value. This is only an issue in instances like FCC where people want max hp from bosses, or if an archer STAs an entire group of mobs for -20% to all mobs.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • thumbs
    thumbs Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Mystic damage is all magical with the exception of Absorb Soul. Which is extremely slow and obvious when it is being cast.

    Punishing Sting, Lysings, Weeping Breeze Dance's 8% hp debuff, and all 4 summons do non elemental dmg.
  • CapnK - Sanctuary
    CapnK - Sanctuary Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Sorry I should have been more specific, all mystic damage that you should care about is magical. None of the things thumbs mentioned are something a BM should be scared of.

    Saku, Blood Vow got buffed last year. It's now 50% extra damage. Previously it was roughly equivalent to one Demon HF, now it's roughly twice as good as HF. I'm speaking of damage over time of course, obviously HF is better in the immediate short-term.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Saku, Blood Vow got buffed last year. It's now 50% extra damage. Previously it was roughly equivalent to one Demon HF, now it's roughly twice as good as HF. I'm speaking of damage over time of course, obviously HF is better in the immediate short-term.

    I think China got a 50% amp and 1 minute cd, or at least that was the rumor prior to us getting the patch of what we were expecting to get but didn't. We still have the 25% amp and went from a 10 min to a 2 min cd. I think you're getting confused with BV's DoT which is the 150% base damage after 9 seconds.

    Blood Vow

    Range　Ranged
    Channel　1.8　seconds
    Cast　0.6　seconds
    Cooldown　2　minutes
    Weapon　Ranged Weapons

    Required Cultivation　Celestial Sage/Demon
    The most devoted Archer infuses their own blood into their arrows, increasing
    their deadliness. You fire an arrow that deals base physical damage to the target
    plus 150% weapon damage with 4444. In 30 seconds, it also
    reduces the target's maximum Health by 18%, and they take 25%
    amplified damage. After 9 seconds, the target takes 150% of your base
    physical damage plus 4444. 100 percent accuracy.

    And the in-game encyclopedia says the same thing. I asked factionmates to verify it.

    So 25% over 30 seconds offers 750% amp. 100% amp over 9 seconds offers 900% amp. More importantly, that 9 second HF is paired better with things like TM, EP, Amplify Damage... consolidated together where with BV the other amps would fade way before it does and you wouldn't gain their huge exponential effect. This is why it's much better for the archer to STA (for 16-20%, instead of BV's 18%) and let the BM HF, then to place the BV as the HF dies for the 21 seconds between the next HF.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Hmm, I would recommend Magic marrow against a seeker. While it is possible that they can kill you with Physical attacks in magic marrow, it is much more likely that they'll kill you with magic attacks while you have no marrow.
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • CapnK - Sanctuary
    CapnK - Sanctuary Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    So 25% over 30 seconds offers 750% amp. 100% amp over 9 seconds offers 900% amp. More importantly, that 9 second HF is paired better with things like TM, EP, Amplify Damage... consolidated together where with BV the other amps would fade way before it does and you wouldn't gain their huge exponential effect. This is why it's much better for the archer to STA (for 16-20%, instead of BV's 18%) and let the BM HF, then to place the BV as the HF dies for the 21 seconds between the next HF.

    *checks Archer forums*

    You are correct, I was misinformed by multiple people. :(
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Hmm, I would recommend Magic marrow against a seeker. While it is possible that they can kill you with Physical attacks in magic marrow, it is much more likely that they'll kill you with magic attacks while you have no marrow.

    The issue is that even though a BMs are weaker against magic damage, a bulk of a seekers skills are physical including their hardest hitting skill, Gemini Slash. Blade Affinity-> Gemini Slash is always a possibility and compare damages on their skills (using lvl 11 sage descriptions).

    Gemini Slash - (Physical) Deals base Physical damage, plus 450% of weapon damage, plus 5500+ 2000 damage.
    Ion Spike - (Metal) Deal base physical damage, 200% of weapon damage,
    and 5100 +1600 damage.
    Heart Seeker - (Metal) Deal base physical damage, 100% of weapon damage,
    and 3200 +1600 damage.
    Battousai - (Metal) Deals base physical damage along with an additional 2500 + 600 damage.

    Gemini Slash is by far the hardest hitting skill prior to defense reductions. Magnanimous said it correctly that a good seeker will capitalize on either marrow you use.

    It also gets much more complicated when you consider the combos they use. If they've chosen to use a stance (many won't since it can block status effects) then Soul Severe + Gemini can proc both physical and magical damage. Many will stall until they can QpQ a combo at you, and there are many to use. Crimson Powders cause you to take double damage but increase your channeling speed for 15 seconds, so a seeker while Crimson Soul Powder (possibly fortify for -50% mdef) and then QpQ those over to you. They may also throw in EP. Now you're a one shot with either marrow, really.

    Capnk- I'm not sure on my exact defenses but I think I'm around 31k pdef and 8k mdef with cleric and bm buffs. With magic marrow I go to 20k pdef and 21k mdef. With bell spam I go back up to 29k pdef. All of those are rough numbers since I'm not in game currently.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The issue is that even though a BMs are weaker against magic damage, a bulk of a seekers skills are physical including their hardest hitting skill, Gemini Slash. Blade Affinity-> Gemini Slash is always a possibility and compare damages on their skills (using lvl 11 sage descriptions).

    Gemini Slash - (Physical) Deals base Physical damage, plus 450% of weapon damage, plus 5500+ 2000 damage.
    Ion Spike - (Metal) Deal base physical damage, 200% of weapon damage,
    and 5100 +1600 damage.
    Heart Seeker - (Metal) Deal base physical damage, 100% of weapon damage,
    and 3200 +1600 damage.
    Battousai - (Metal) Deals base physical damage along with an additional 2500 + 600 damage.

    Gemini Slash is by far the hardest hitting skill prior to defense reductions. Magnanimous said it correctly that a good seeker will capitalize on either marrow you use.

    It also gets much more complicated when you consider the combos they use. If they've chosen to use a stance (many won't since it can block status effects) then Soul Severe + Gemini can proc both physical and magical damage. Many will stall until they can QpQ a combo at you, and there are many to use. Crimson Powders cause you to take double damage but increase your channeling speed for 15 seconds, so a seeker while Crimson Soul Powder (possibly fortify for -50% mdef) and then QpQ those over to you. They may also throw in EP. Now you're a one shot with either marrow, really.

    Chances that you'll get 1 shot by a physical attack in magic marrow is much less likely than the chances that you'll get 1 shot by a magical attack in no marrow though. Unless you're undergeared, of course.

    Medium to High mag def + medium to high pdef is much safer than very high pdef and very low mdef.

    With magic marrow, you MIGHT get 1 shot by physical, and you MIGHT get 1 shot by magical.

    With physical/no marrow, you WON'T get 1 shot by physical, but you'll ALWAYS get 1 shot by magical. I'd rather stand a chance against magical than just pray that they'll always use physical. Although of course, if they always use physical, you can just adjust accordingly.

    For example, in this video here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdaaZL_RMUc

    The seeker tries many physical and magical damage combo, but it fails to 1 shot the bm. If the bm stayed no marrow and the seeker used magical, it certainly would've 1 shot.

    Alternatively you could always stay no marrow and just Heart of Steel all their combos. But still, they might kill you with a few zerk crits even without a combo.

    But of course, the benefit of magic marrow is that you can choose to simply block the combos that will for sure 1 shot you, which only comes every 2 minutes or so.
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I did not watch the video. I will just add this, when a seeker zerk+crits on their max damage range, i doubt things like marrows and charms can save us.
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I did not watch the video. I will just add this, when a seeker zerk+crits on their max damage range, i doubt things like marrows and charms can save us.

    In the video, the seeker zerk + critted a few times. It was close. Ticked charm in 1 hit. But definitely didn't 1 shot though.
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver
    Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver Posts: 350 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    marrow+ O Bell for me vs seekers i live better anything else is death :P
    To think your OP is Fail, To know your role is OP
    Team work is Flawless,
    To think your better then the rest is shabby.

    Blademaster - Celestial Demon
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    In the video, the seeker zerk + critted a few times. It was close. Ticked charm in 1 hit. But definitely didn't 1 shot though.

    Do you have the bm build in pwcalc, or general hp, def levels? or a screen shot of the bm gear?
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I know this may seem like a strange analogy, but bare with me.

    Marrows are a joke and are like taking away from middle/poor income people and giving back to the other... at least in my opinion.

    Altar Marrow Magical basically take away from a arguably mediocre (middle-class) stat (albeit that it is easily one of the highest phys def in game) and gives to the "poor," it does raise the magical defense, but it leaves the mediocre reeling trying to pick up the pieces from helping the 'poor.'

    As for Altar Marrow Physical it takes from the poor and gives to the mediocre, making it a 'rich' in one place... taking from the poor making it even more poor... ergo that in mass pvp is never a good idea.

    (You should never want to take from the poor, to make the mediocre/middle class rich... the poor just wouldn't survive. Likewise you shouldn't want to take from the 'mediocre' at best and give to the poor.)

    Yes bm's are among the best in physical defense, but for all of the perks marrows have they have so many exploitable flaws that can really make you pay for choosing to use marrows in pvp... (more mass pvp than 1 vs 1)

    I do understand people will disagree with me on that analogy but meh that is how i see it. (20kish phys def is far from rich IMHO... and when even demon marrow takes away 90% of that... your left with 12kish phys def to deal with the attacks from both magical enemies and physical ones. Though yes if you add in the 75% boost from demon bell that's roughly 15kish phys def.. that really isn't all that much to deal with what a bm would have to deal with in mass pvp scenarios.) [Note the numbers might be slightly off my math is a bit rusty. :$]

    EDIT: it is possible to get quite respectable phys def even without the 75% boost... but the amount of money you would have to spend to get that phys def + magic def is significant to say the least. (+12 4 pieces of items + full g16 ha armor)

    So yea... without insane gears/high *** refines marrows in mass pvp = BAD idea.

    ----

    Marrow Question 1: Do as someone else said "Altar marrow magical, and take out the magical enemies first"

    Marrow Question 2: Magical Marrow, not ever altar physical against them.

    Marrow Question 3: In case you can't tell from my rant up there, marrows are a JOKE in mass pvp, and seekers/archers are a great deal of the reason why.

    ----

    Gear Question 1: I say replace the belt, the necklace and it's +5% hp is worth keeping imho.

    Gear Question 2: Strength... it is what adds to your damage.

    Gear Question 3: Peak Of Clouds.

    Gear Question 4: As I am sure it has been pointed out already... the decides give you more aps... (unless you have the gear/tome to compensate for the -.5 int loss) the proc is a nice one to have. though if your just going to just get peak of clouds I don't advise 'wasting' your money on the deicides. (Fists arguably do more constant damage anyways)
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • tsyfall
    tsyfall Posts: 9
    edited August 2013
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Do you have the bm build in pwcalc, or general hp, def levels? or a screen shot of the bm gear?

    BM was S3 +8 overall with +8 1st rank cube neck and +10 g16 helm/cape, and using omalleys. too lazy to do my friend's pw calc myself

    immac cits

    seeker is pretty much same but full +10
  • CapnK - Sanctuary
    CapnK - Sanctuary Posts: 1,166 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I'm not sure on my exact defenses but I think I'm around 31k pdef and 8k mdef with cleric and bm buffs. With magic marrow I go to 20k pdef and 21k mdef. With bell spam I go back up to 29k pdef. All of those are rough numbers since I'm not in game currently.

    Mmm, my numbers (lesser gear of course)

    cleric buffs, unmarrowed 21797 phys (84%) 6634 magic (62%)

    Sage magic marrow 13153 phys (76%) 13590 magic (77%)

    So yeah I'm going to have to disagree with Slivaf. Not really seeing a reason to go unmarrowed in mass pvp for either culti. Yes archers hurt but it's better than dying to a sneeze from a caster.
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Mmm, my numbers (lesser gear of course)

    cleric buffs, unmarrowed 21797 phys (84%) 6634 magic (62%)

    Sage magic marrow 13153 phys (76%) 13590 magic (77%)

    So yeah I'm going to have to disagree with Slivaf. Not really seeing a reason to go unmarrowed in mass pvp for either culti. Yes archers hurt but it's better than dying to a sneeze from a caster.

    You are right generally it is better to use altar marrow magical, but if it takes your phys def down below 10k I don't think it is worth it... hell imho 15k is even pushing it. Though again that is just an opinion. EDIT: (If your PD is this low it is indeed likely to do with your gear choice/lvl of bell etc. Focusing too much on a weakness could make a strength falter and be nothing but an hindrance. i guess what i was trying to say... is don't try to over compensate for the magic weakness or your physical defense could become quite an issue)

    I don't like that we have to suffer so much trying to boost a weakness... especially when what gets taken away from becomes a hindrance, bms suffer too much with the way the marrows are in my opinion. (what other class has a boost that is also a double edged sword that could easily die to others without being much of a threat to others?.. Psys are the closest, but meh all that atk lvl boost + the fact they hit helluva hard at a DISTANCE... I think their double edged sword EASILY owns the socks off of what marrows do in mass pvp... though again that is indeed just an opinion... and I am not 100% sure it came out how I wanted it too... so if your confused about it.. sorry :$)
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • PlsStahp - Sanctuary
    PlsStahp - Sanctuary Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Seekers

    How do i kill them before they get me? They have magic atk and physical attack so how do i kill them? They seem to be OP. Keeping them stunlocked would obviously be the solution but as we're all humans, some gaps in the stunlock loop may appear and they might use some kind of antistun.

    Archers

    I know theyre squishy up close but archers kill you even before you get there. Will taking them by surprise be the only way to kill them?

    Genies

    Should i scrap extreme poison or tangling mire? which is the better skill for me? i use longevity and prioritize str on it.
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    PlsStahp - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Seekers

    How do i kill them before they get me? They have magic atk and physical attack so how do i kill them? They seem to be OP. Keeping them stunlocked would obviously be the solution but as we're all humans, some gaps in the stunlock loop may appear and they might use some kind of antistun.

    Archers

    I know theyre squishy up close but archers kill you even before you get there. Will taking them by surprise be the only way to kill them?

    Genies

    Should i scrap extreme poison or tangling mire? which is the better skill for me? i use longevity and prioritize str on it.

    Warning <--- is a nab bm in pvp... though really I can't tell if its my gear or my lack of skill IN pvp... I know I am decent in pve.

    Anyways...

    Seekers: I think simplest answer is to just purely outgear them... or you can try your leaps and HOPE like hell the 'proc's' happen that will allow you to close the gap, and HOPEFULLY lock them down... but really even if you do good luck killing them if you don't have GOF axes... our damage sucks especially against people who have badass phys def. A seeker is one of those.

    Archers: Same as seekers, outgear them/leap and pray. xD You might be able to surprise them with a reel in/reckless rush, and while they will take more damage than seekers most of the time... you'll still need a bit of luck killing them, especially if they know their class even just a little.

    ---

    As for the genie skill I have pretty much always used tangling mire... but I can't say which is more useful... I do however know mire gets boosted by strength... not sure about EP... I think it would be useful to get rid of one of them, I don't think you should want to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak... especially if the two skills can't be used at the exact same time.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Zsw - Dreamweaver
    Zsw - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    PlsStahp - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Seekers

    How do i kill them before they get me? They have magic atk and physical attack so how do i kill them? They seem to be OP. Keeping them stunlocked would obviously be the solution but as we're all humans, some gaps in the stunlock loop may appear and they might use some kind of antistun.

    Archers

    I know theyre squishy up close but archers kill you even before you get there. Will taking them by surprise be the only way to kill them?

    Genies

    Should i scrap extreme poison or tangling mire? which is the better skill for me? i use longevity and prioritize str on it.

    Well, gear differences do matter, to an extent. Are you in TT99 fighting r9rr? Most likely not going to kill them, sorry =/ But r9rr +7 vs r9rr +10? You still have a chance. I don't recommend out gearing someone as a solution. You can't out gear someone who is full r9rr +12 with full josd/deities, so eventually you'll have to figure out a strategy. If you have the right strategy, you might be able to kill them even with lesser gears. It is much more satisfying that way.

    Your cultivation also plays a bit of a role in this. So I will assume you are equally geared as your opponents. I will assume your gears are balanced (No +12 weapon with +0 armors) and I will assume you are demon (Don't see many sage bms around these days) and have demon skills. If this is not the case, someone else may be more qualified to help.

    Seekers

    Spam demon bell + magic marrow. The proc from the bell will cover for your lack of pdef, and marrow will cover for your lack of mdef. With those stats, you should be able to get close enough to the seeker without dying. If you can't catch up to them for some reason, anti stun yourself. Speed increase + unable to be frozen or stunned by them.

    Find a spare slot on your genie skill and get Heart of Steel. This will negate any magic Quid Pro Quo combos they try on you, and can be used incase you accidentally let magic marrow expire.

    Physical attacks shouldn't kill you. Spam defense charms just incase.

    You also have several ranged skills that can give you some breathing space if you're really having trouble with them locking you up from afar. Smack to seal them from afar, Blade Hurl to disarm them from afar, Flame Tsunami to stun them from afar, reel in to force them closer to you, reckless rush to teleport to them. And you always have your leaps to quickly close distance or gain distance from them. Try mastering leaping forward, then turning your character backwards to leap back. That is the same as two leap forwards, giving you a 32m gain on them. (Or vice versa)

    The difficulty isn't really surviving them. Their combo is predictable and noticable. Sac slash is extremely flashy (a red dragon) so you can easily prepare a counter for it. If you are equally geared, anything short of a combo should not kill you. Killing them is the main problem. To kill them, you will just have to repeatedly try your own combos until it works. You can look at this video to get some combo ideas:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdaaZL_RMUc

    Contrary to what we been taught, it might actually be disadvantageous to pull off a perfect stun lock on a seeker. Pulling a perfect stun lock means that you cannot properly set yourself up for a kill combo. It may in fact be better to wittle down their hp to 50% slowly, then throw in your hard hitting combo and hope that it kills them.

    Archers

    Again, same concept as seeker. Bell + magic marrow to keep both of your defenses up. If equally geared, and balance geared, you should have no problems reaching them. Anti stun if you need to. Master your leaps. Ranged skill if they're killing you before you reach them. Once you get to them, just pray that you don't miss, and try to keep up with them. They can leap too and have their own anti stuns which are more spammable than yours.

    Some people think you can't kite archers. Technically you can. You just have to know when. Don't kite an archer if most of their skills are on cool down. Take a note of what genie skills they have. Learn what cool down their skills are. If they're running out of options, pressure them harder. But if they're at max range from you and you're at risk of dying? Maybe leap back instead of leap forward.

    Like seekers, they don't have too many combos. Quickshot + auto attack might hurt if you're in magic marrow without demon bell. Beware if they try using Zooming Thunderpowder + magic attacks. That gives them instant channeling for a bit. Use heart of steel. (Isn't it great both classes use metal damage as their magic attack? :D)

    Genie

    Don't use Longevity for str. It's not worth it because you're loosing 10 free points into strength. Get a infliction. As for which skill is better, I'm not sure to be honest. You will have to do some math and testing.
    Zsw -104 Sage Assassin
    TehZsw - 100 Demon Archer


    All Luck No Skillz PvPer: youtube.com/user/zsw007
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Zsw is correct out gearing is indeed way too simple to be a viable solution for everything. :$

    he's probably correct about everything else he said as well... as I said I am a nab in pvp/mass pvp.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    When people don't get one~three shot by my axes, i do one thing. I switch to my aps gear, and kill them in my aps set up after purging them. It doesn't matter what gear people have. As long as your claws are +10 g16, you can kill most r9 3rd cast seekers, in a purged, stun lock state.

    Archers, same thing as above, they die quick,

    I use apoc to get close to people, dew of protection is a good thing to use.

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