I. Masteries => Demon or Sage?
Apostasy - Raging Tide
Posts: 1,197 Arc User
"...unless there's something I'm missing, a sage is dealing 5% more damage consistently while the demon only crits 2% more. Sage deals 1/20th more damage while demon crits 1/50th more frequently. See where I'm going with this?"
Again. At level 10, psy masteries for water and earth elemental spells give all psys +20% damage.
The choice to go sage gives an additional +5%... which in PvE is still only ~+4% extra damage per hit over a demon. In PvP however, there is a -75% reduction in damage. Thus, a sage is only getting +1% per hit... which = +1 full added attack per 100 attacks, but only over the course of having dealt 100 attacks and is barely noticeable.
The demon masteries give +2% to the overall crit rate. Thus, demons get +2 full added attacks per 100. And unlike unoticeable +1% added damage per hit, the 2 attacks that gain crit can actually influence the outcome of a fight ensuing in that moment as a crit does go off.
See where this concluded? So unless you wanna try on the right foot again... b:quiet
Again. At level 10, psy masteries for water and earth elemental spells give all psys +20% damage.
The choice to go sage gives an additional +5%... which in PvE is still only ~+4% extra damage per hit over a demon. In PvP however, there is a -75% reduction in damage. Thus, a sage is only getting +1% per hit... which = +1 full added attack per 100 attacks, but only over the course of having dealt 100 attacks and is barely noticeable.
The demon masteries give +2% to the overall crit rate. Thus, demons get +2 full added attacks per 100. And unlike unoticeable +1% added damage per hit, the 2 attacks that gain crit can actually influence the outcome of a fight ensuing in that moment as a crit does go off.
See where this concluded? So unless you wanna try on the right foot again... b:quiet
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by Apostasy - Raging Tide on
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Comments
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b:lipcurl Both statements are really flawed.
The white quote :
Sage is about 4% more damage as a lvl92+ psy is by default at 120% (or at least should be). The increase in crit frequency depends on the initial crit rate. Just putting only before 1 of the options isn't a form of proof.
The blue part :
Please learn multiplications. The increase of sage is the same +/- 4% wether you're looking pve, amped, reduced or pvp. Any %based multiplier has no effect on that. For the way you look at demon, it makes me sad you actually compare it to additional attacks. Pve wise I can somewhat understand, but pvp wise ... well yeah. You should know better
My opinion :
It's just the basic general discussion off : a small but certain advantage/gain vs a big but incertain advantage/gain. There is no answer. Statistically, the incertain advantages tend to outdo the certain advantages by lack of means to calculate the "loss" side of the risk.
In case of psychics ingame, I think sage mastery suits the sage overall picture better, while demon mastery goes well with the overall picture of that path. Why even bother to define 1 as better when in the realistic picture you won't even find a "but identical everyewhere else" case to really compare both masteries?0 -
Really?...b:lipcurl Both statements are really flawed.
1. Good thing you are on an alt to not embarrass yourself.
2. You speak without even knowing what you are speaking about.
But let me explain it to you...
The "Wheat" part, actually (Not White)... happens to be someone else's quote. Of which they know who they are and some others do as well. And that is good enough for me to leave that quote as was written by that person and not need to name them.The white quote :
Sage is about 4% more damage as a lvl92+ psy is by default at 120% (or at least should be). The increase in crit frequency depends on the initial crit rate. Just putting only before 1 of the options isn't a form of proof.
In order to speak about Demon VS Sage Masteries... The level 10 base level masteries available to all psys are necessary and strictly understood... The only reason I felt the need to mention the actuality of the level 10 Masteries was to make sure that others also recognized they even exist and not try to avoid the actual math directly surrounding said masteries. That stated, the +20% damage from masteries is a given, no need to state level anything (as you have done) of the character itself.
"The increase in crit frequency depends on the initial crit rate." Call it "frequency" to sound smart, but it is "rate" actually... and has no dependency on any initial anything. Speaking about "proof" in reference to the word "only" being used? Learn English... Whereas I respect your attempt at it (being I only understand English myself and I can see English is not your first language), you should really keep your comments to conversations you can actually follow along with and understand.
1. Please read :The blue part :
Please learn multiplications. The increase of sage is the same +/- 4% wether you're looking pve, amped, reduced or pvp. Any %based multiplier has no effect on that. For the way you look at demon, it makes me sad you actually compare it to additional attacks. Pve wise I can somewhat understand, but pvp wise ... well yeah. You should know better
PvP Damage Reduction
In PvP all damage is reduced by 75% (corresponding to a damage multiplier of 25%). This does not apply to some attacks from venomancer pets.
2. Or just go to this page
So learn your facts before you try to attempt to attack anything I post, especially when I actually took the time to look into the details first. Hence the reason you are the only person foolish enough to have attacked what was in the first post... but at least you were smart enough to use an alt account in order to save face.
No. The answer was clearly laid out to those that understand English. But *applause* on your attempt.My opinion :
It's just the basic general discussion off : a small but certain advantage/gain vs a big but incertain advantage/gain. There is no answer. Statistically, the incertain advantages tend to outdo the certain advantages by lack of means to calculate the "loss" side of the risk.
In case of psychics ingame, I think sage mastery suits the sage overall picture better, while demon mastery goes well with the overall picture of that path. Why even bother to define 1 as better when in the realistic picture you won't even find a "but identical everyewhere else" case to really compare both masteries?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
@Apostasy :
1) Sure, whatever you want for the collor.
2) 92 is simply the lvl where lvl11 mastery can be learned. The important part is that damage is 120% default, that is what makes sage a +/- 4% increase of damage over lvl10. Apparantly, from who you quoted, that isn't clear. That is the only reason I bothered.
3) Frequency is pretty much the same. It's not to sound smart, it's not to have a confusion with "crit rate" by using "rate" 2x in a sentence. Like above, an increase is defined by the previous step. Unlike masteries, the previous crit rate isn't a given number. It depends a lot on gear (and thus lvl also).
4) If you multiply by 0.25, the gap will still stay the same % wise. You're just ridiculising yourself now. Fill in with numbers and verify if you want. The damage is lower, but the increase of going from lvl10 to sage mastery is the exact same 4'ish %.
Simple rounded example on the increase :
you hit 100 with lvl10 mastery, means you're hitting 83.333 (100/1.20) without mastery and thus 104 with mastery sage learned.
In pvp, 100x0.25 = 25. With mastery sage 104x0.25 = 26. The increase is still 4%.
5) The character from this account has been erased a while back. I don't see the use of posting from from my other account that has an avatar. It shouldn't have any influence on a post.
6) Your post is just full of nonsense and some opinions. Don't fill up your opinions with pseudo-math and it might actually be of some use.0 -
Apostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »Again. At level 10, psy masteries for water and earth elemental spells give all psys +20% damage.
The choice to go sage gives an additional +5%... which in PvE is still only ~+4% extra damage per hit over a demon. In PvP however, there is a -75% reduction in damage. Thus, a sage is only getting +1% per hit... which = +1 full added attack per 100 attacks, but only over the course of having dealt 100 attacks and is barely noticeable.
Assume spell does 100 dmg
Sage deals 104 dmg and crits x/100 times
Demon deals 100 dmg and crits for 200 dmg every (x+2)/100 times
in 100 hits, sage deals: 100*104 + x*104
while demon deals: 100*100 + x*100 + 2*100
sage > demon <=> 100*4 + 4*x > 2*100 <=> 200 > 4*x <=> x < 50
so if your crit rate is less than 50%, sage is better.
Damage reduction/amps don't matter. why? because with w/e dmg amp/reduction sage is better than demon if and only if sage is better without the dmg amp/reduction.
Proof:
Assume that Sage deals S dmg and demon deals D dmg
Assume that the dmg amp is a.
a*S > a*D <=> S > D (assuming that a =/=0)
QED
is 2% crit better than a dmg add? perhaps. but dps-wise? no. and saying that the 75% reduction in pvp changes that is simply wrongyou only purge once #yopo0 -
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »Assume spell does 100 dmg
Sage deals 104 dmg and crits x/100 times
Demon deals 100 dmg and crits for 200 dmg every (x+2)/100 times
in 100 hits, sage deals: 100*104 + x*104
while demon deals: 100*100 + x*100 + 2*100
sage > demon <=> 100*4 + 4*x > 2*100 <=> 200 > 4*x <=> x < 50
so if your crit rate is less than 50%, sage is better.
Damage reduction/amps don't matter. why? because with w/e dmg amp/reduction sage is better than demon if and only if sage is better without the dmg amp/reduction.
Proof:
Assume that Sage deals S dmg and demon deals D dmg
Assume that the dmg amp is a.
a*S > a*D <=> S > D (assuming that a =/=0)
QED
is 2% crit better than a dmg add? perhaps. but dps-wise? no. and saying that the 75% reduction in pvp changes that is simply wrong
THANK you.
As I said in the thread he's quoting me from: ****ing maths people. Use it. Cut all the "heart of the cards any culti is good!11" bullcrap and use ****ing logic to determine your culti. Pro-tip: logic points to sage.I
AGOREY0 -
1. Well trands, to YOU, I do owe an apology. I am just so damn sick of all the scum on this game it is disgusting. Hence the reason for my being so aggressive and even offensive. I can see you are not one of the scum.4) If you multiply by 0.25, the gap will still stay the same % wise. You're just ridiculising yourself now. Fill in with numbers and verify if you want. The damage is lower, but the increase of going from lvl10 to sage mastery is the exact same 4'ish %.
Simple rounded example on the increase :
you hit 100 with lvl10 mastery, means you're hitting 83.333 (100/1.20) without mastery and thus 104 with mastery sage learned.
In pvp, 100x0.25 = 25. With mastery sage 104x0.25 = 26. The increase is still 4%.
2. And I must surrender... given the PvP damage of Demons at 30% VS the PvP damage of Sages at 31.25%... that extra 1.25% is still actually ~4% more than Demons given the PvP reduction b:surrender... but I still got to knock them down 1% b:pleased
I would like to still know who your main is and what server... if you could be so kind? b:question5) The character from this account has been erased a while back. I don't see the use of posting from from my other account that has an avatar. It shouldn't have any influence on a post.
And it was not at all nonsense, opinions or pseudo-math... it was a matter of having all the information without actually thinking it all the way through. A mistake. Of which at least I can own up to and not need to hide that I made a mistake. It is not as if I eat, sleep and b:fatb all things PWI like so many seem to do. Personally, this game is just less and less worth it with time... I currently have +12 refinement on my weapon and +8 refinements on all my remaining gears... and it would still take another $6,000 (6,000 gold) just to get all my gear up to +12 and jos'd/deity shard those gears fully. That does not at all include any other upgrade whatsoever... which I have no reason to bother trying to figure out the costs of those too... Give me a game that is pay to play per month any time... at least I would shine being those actually take skill to build a character. This game on the other hand, breeds the scum of the earth that just happen to have money irl... and the way they talk to people and begin making good people talk to others is nauseating.6) Your post is just full of nonsense and some opinions. Don't fill up your opinions with pseudo-math and it might actually be of some use.
Well trands... take care
Just LMFAO LongKnife... you speak as if YOU had anything to say against the first post... YOU were NOT the one to win this battle... so you can still b:quietLongknife - Harshlands wrote: »THANK you.
As I said in the thread he's quoting me from: ****ing maths people. Use it. Cut all the "heart of the cards any culti is good!11" bullcrap and use ****ing logic to determine your culti. Pro-tip: logic points to sage.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
The difference between multipliers also favors sage early and demon late. At level 92 you are likely to have only 400 or so magic, so 4x multipliers + 20% mastery.
Comparing sage having (425% dph times xx crit) vs demon having (420% times x+1 crit) is one thing, but the importance on crit grows as your multipliers grow, while the importance of additional multipliers, like 25% mastery, shrinks. At endgame you are looking at 650 magic for a total of 675% multipliers for sage and 670% for demon. At this point the additional crit may be greater dps than the 5% mastery.
Eitherway, and for any class, it is really balanced and usually comes out to less than a 1% difference and changes with gear. That's why mastery is a bad thing to base culti comparison on and many of the skills are much more important factors.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
I tell you right now demon is better than sage when you have end game gear.0
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evolution1234 wrote: »I tell you right now demon is better than sage when you have end game gear.
thanks I'll switch when I finish my cultiyou only purge once #yopo0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »The difference between multipliers also favors sage early and demon late. At level 92 you are likely to have only 400 or so magic, so 4x multipliers + 20% mastery.
Comparing sage having (425% dph times xx crit) vs demon having (420% times x+1 crit) is one thing, but the importance on crit grows as your multipliers grow, while the importance of additional multipliers, like 25% mastery, shrinks. At endgame you are looking at 650 magic for a total of 675% multipliers for sage and 670% for demon. At this point the additional crit may be greater dps than the 5% mastery.
Eitherway, and for any class, it is really balanced and usually comes out to less than a 1% difference and changes with gear. That's why mastery is a bad thing to base culti comparison on and many of the skills are much more important factors.
Elemental mastery doesn't change base magic attack, it just increases damage you deal according to the respective element. Any physical weapon mastery on the other hand increases weapon attack hence affects base physical attack.
So if you have 2 psychics, one is sage and other is demon and both have the same gears and level, sage does have more DPS under normal circumstances but not until gears have a significant amount of critical % stat.
People rarely perceive a demon psychic to have more DPS because psychics' basic attacks have low channel times and there are more sage psychics in general. It's not that common for a psychic to have the range of 15-20% critical chance from gears. And as we all know demon has more skills that reduces channel time including demon eruption but for a psychic you should not be making your decision on whether to be sage or demon just based on which mastery is better.0 -
hi, dude wanna try playing *** with me? of couse you got to buy the game (around $50) but then you play for free. the game is not ptw, what really defines you there is your skill and how you build your character.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Fist i started a Cleric :lv 20 2008
2nd a Veno: lv 81 2009
3rd an Assassin: lv 91 (****) 2010
4th o.0 Assassin: lv 101 (cool)
5th Mystic FTW b:dirty0 -
Hi, i was sage psy, then for curiosity about demon skills, landslide, tide spirit and sandburst blast i changed to demon, well, how can i say? Suck, the landslide debuff seems never get and when get sometimes dont hit crit, the tide spirit increase your critical hit by 2-10, to 4-10, and the sandburst blast debuff NEVER GET 1 time in 20, really, i made a lot of test, AND I CANT FORGET ABOUT THE WHITE VOODOO, the demon white voodoo gives a -3% chan buff, BUT!! BUT!! That debuff go out in 2 minutes, really trash, simple, now im backing to sage.0
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mentalistalah wrote: »Hi, i was sage psy, then for curiosity about demon skills, landslide, tide spirit and sandburst blast i changed to demon, well, how can i say? Suck, the landslide debuff seems never get and when get sometimes dont hit crit, the tide spirit increase your critical hit by 2-10, to 4-10, and the sandburst blast debuff NEVER GET 1 time in 20, really, i made a lot of test, AND I CANT FORGET ABOUT THE WHITE VOODOO, the demon white voodoo gives a -3% chan buff, BUT!! BUT!! That debuff go out in 2 minutes, really trash, simple, now im backing to sage.
cool story0 -
mentalistalah wrote: »AND I CANT FORGET ABOUT THE WHITE VOODOO, the demon white voodoo gives a -3% chan buff, BUT!! BUT!! That debuff go out in 2 minutes, really trash, simple, now im backing to sage.
wait what? if you mean that the -chan buff lasts only 2m... well, good to know but who the hell cares about a -3chan buff.... regarding the rest...learn to math.you only purge once #yopo0 -
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »wait what? if you mean that the -chan buff lasts only 2m... well, good to know but who the hell cares about a -3chan buff.... regarding the rest...learn to math.
Im bringing u tips, DONT go demon, ITS WASTE OF MONEY, landslide, sandburst blast, tide spirit will disapoint u, i back to sage now, already got some sage skills back. Those ppl that say, demon psy full DD, etc etc, its all crappy, dont listen that, i changed to demon and now im back to sage.
Just imagine u in a mass PK then u target anyone, use landslide, wait the walk to get in range, and after cast u dont get any critical buff, and when u get u hit 1 of 2 hit critical. Thats bad.0 -
mentalistalah wrote: »Im bringing u tips, DONT go demon, ITS WASTE OF MONEY, landslide, sandburst blast, tide spirit will disapoint u, i back to sage now, already got some sage skills back. Those ppl that say, demon psy full DD, etc etc, its all crappy, dont listen that, i changed to demon and now im back to sage.
Just imagine u in a mass PK then u target anyone, use landslide, wait the walk to get in range, and after cast u dont get any critical buff, and when u get u hit 1 of 2 hit critical. Thats bad.
Timeo Noobeos et tips ferentesyou only purge once #yopo0 -
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »
Beware noobs bearing advice? o.0 But it's sound, if a bit....um...jargledChannels
youtube .com/user/WallyPWS Active
youtube .com/user/tehnewblife Semi Inactive0 -
Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »Beware noobs bearing advice? o.0 But it's sound, if a bit....um...jargled
yes b:chuckleyou only purge once #yopo0 -
Masteries are irrelevantApostasy - Raging Tide wrote: »"...unless there's something I'm missing, a sage is dealing 5% more damage consistently while the demon only crits 2% more. Sage deals 1/20th more damage while demon crits 1/50th more frequently. See where I'm going with this?"
Again. At level 10, psy masteries for water and earth elemental spells give all psys +20% damage.
The choice to go sage gives an additional +5%... which in PvE is still only ~+4% extra damage per hit over a demon. In PvP however, there is a -75% reduction in damage. Thus, a sage is only getting +1% per hit... which = +1 full added attack per 100 attacks, but only over the course of having dealt 100 attacks and is barely noticeable.
The demon masteries give +2% to the overall crit rate. Thus, demons get +2 full added attacks per 100. And unlike unoticeable +1% added damage per hit, the 2 attacks that gain crit can actually influence the outcome of a fight ensuing in that moment as a crit does go off.
See where this concluded? So unless you wanna try on the right foot again... b:quiet[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »
Keel calm my frend, avoid insults, use only the poor argument. All i said is true cause i did this PRATICALLY, not in theory.0 -
mentalistalah wrote: »Im bringing u tips, DONT go demon, ITS WASTE OF MONEY, landslide, sandburst blast, tide spirit will disapoint u, i back to sage now, already got some sage skills back. Those ppl that say, demon psy full DD, etc etc, its all crappy, dont listen that, i changed to demon and now im back to sage.
Just imagine u in a mass PK then u target anyone, use landslide, wait the walk to get in range, and after cast u dont get any critical buff, and when u get u hit 1 of 2 hit critical. Thats bad.
if you use landslide when ur not in range, making u walk, then ur just bad0 -
mentalistalah wrote: »Keel calm my frend, avoid insults, use only the poor argument. All i said is true cause i did this PRATICALLY, not in theory.
ah ok, since you did it PRA-TI-CA-LLYb:laughApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »if you use landslide when ur not in range, making u walk, then ur just bad
everyone knows that when someone reaches a psy, the psy automatically jumps 30m. oh wait, those are wizziesyou only purge once #yopo0
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