Evaluate the sticky posts and guides

tweakz · July 2013

Do they tell you to use charms and other totally unnecessary boutique items or genie skills?
Do they tell you that putting points in vit is good?
Are they updated when errors or poor advice is pointed out later in the threads?
Are they ever un-stickied when they become so old and obsolete that they no longer are even half right?
Do some seem to be stickied just because they contain positive content about a new Boutique item?

This is the first forum I've ever heard of "necro" on.

Does it seem like we're purposely being steered toward costlier builds, and items we don't need or really benefit from?

We don't need another vit vs pure build argument. We've seen enough testimonies in the past from pures that didn't need charms and didn't sink a fortune into equips which are negligible cost when you resell.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver · July 2013

Yes we should unsticky the guides that tell BMs to go pure axe.

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear · July 2013

Well... putting Vit in points is good for certain builds, but I agree many of the class forums are filled with stickied threads that are ancient. Many of the builds discussed are no longer relevant, and most receive little to no poster activity anymore. Best to let them die and let new posters create new guides to take their place.

Decus - Dreamweaver · July 2013

...huh?

tweakz · July 2013

Kiszmet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Well... putting Vit in points is good for certain builds

You already lost the argument. Stick to topic.

Eden - Raging Tide · July 2013

get a blog

or make some friends

Eoria - Harshlands · July 2013

tbh, there are certain sticky threads that should probably be unstickied at this point. In this section alone, I'd probably go ahead and unsticky the Rising Call thread and Facial Inis thread because they're both basically old news.

And then you have old *** "guides" like this one or this one in the veno section that are just so outdated, they're not even relevant anymore.

Zheii - Archosaur · July 2013

Hmm... Sticky threads are mostly dead.
Unless they have been recently Sticky/ed
What makes them nice is when they are constantly being updated, but most of them where stickied years ago and have gone cold.
I recently asked if it was possible for the control of the OP of a stickied thread to be transferred over to me or someone else so that it could be continued to be updated- no-one even responded to me, I'm contemplating just re-making the thread and waiting for it to be either closed or just some sort of notice be given to it.

Traydor_Styx - Raging Tide · July 2013

Zheii, if I was you, I'd go ahead and just make an up-to-date guide for others to follow. Action speak loader then words. If it does well then it should be stickied. I would like to suggest adding a date to the title when posting so that it is noted to being up to date. This way others may do the same if and when yours may be outdated.

-Personally I'd be interested in an up-to-date guide for sage/demon sins as well as a guide for choosing armors.

Zheii - Archosaur · July 2013

Traydor_Styx - Raging Tide wrote: »

Zheii, if I was you, I'd go ahead and just make an up-to-date guide for others to follow. Action speak loader then words. If it does well then it should be stickied. I would like to suggest adding a date to the title when posting so that it is noted to being up to date. This way others may do the same if and when yours may be outdated.

-Personally I'd be interested in an up-to-date guide for sage/demon sins as well as a guide for choosing armors.

Yea I will when i get around to it

(Hadn't thought of it until I found this thread haha xD)

Knownase - Heavens Tear · July 2013

I agree, we need guides that have a 2013 vibe to them now. Perhaps a project can be organized in remaking guides with updated info.

Let's make it happen.b:victory

Asone - Raging Tide · July 2013

Go update PWI Wiki if you like. Stickied threads that have died are not the only guides to this game.

MagicEmpress - Lost City · July 2013

The sticky threads aren't locked are they?

Go make a good guide yourself for your favorite class and add the post to the sticky.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2013

I'll have to agree.
There are some stickies that are terribly outdated and there's honestly no point or reason to keep them where they are. Nobody's going to ever update those stickies since the OP is long gone.

The problem with outdated stickies is that some people still check them out and are misguided into thinking they are still viable. Making new updated guides is one thing to solve it but if the outdated stickied guides are still going to be there then we'll just end up with a ton of stickies. Half of them will be updated and the other half outdated.

How are we going to do this? Keep making guides like "New Updated Guide to [class] builds" and just keep at it? That's not how it should work. Outdated stickies should be taken down in my opinion for they no longer serve any purpose other than misguide players and provide misinformation since the game has changed a lot ever since.

For the wiki argument; a lot of people visit the forums rather than the Wiki and most of the Wiki's guides were taken from guides written and posted on the forums.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · July 2013

Sure; but it's a LOT easier to update and edit the wiki than to have everyone make "Oooh, you need to say..." posts on a longass sticky.

Still.... it's probably a good idea.

opkossy · July 2013

If someone makes an updated guide for any of the stickies and PMs a mod, we'd be more than happy to prune.

Not much point to having a sticky that only says "Hey go to the wiki", though. b:chuckle

tweakz · July 2013

I don't think anyone wants more sticky guides or replacements. From the start most were chock full of misleading information, and now they're out-dated on top of it.

If someone makes an updated guide for any of the stickies and PMs a mod, we'd be more than happy to prune.

For what purpose would you leave up so much misleading information? Are moderators told to only sticky threads that promote Boutique items and other wasteful resources? Told to never take a sticky down unless it's replaced? It's grimey to leave them; like it's grimey to leave Arcane Book: Pets in the Boutique. It's disrespectful to your customers.

Not much point to having a sticky that only says "Hey go to the wiki", though.

There is: The wiki has a lot of out-dated and incomplete information. A lot of it is copied from obsolete guides and uses names from different versions of the game (same as the stickies). Some of the information there is just personal thoughts that have no place in a guide or resource of information. With more traffic and awareness it might get the needed attention.

When someone posts nonsense like: you need hp charm, barb, apoth, or FB, HH, etc, we can swiftly correct it. I don't think anyone wants to read through pages of replies to see how bad the sticky guides actually are.

There's many useful posts that should have been stickied that haven't been. Because of this we have repeated discussions of pure mag vs vit vs LA vs HA. Despite pures winning every argument about cost and effectiveness: we still get those repeated debates.

I'm blaming the people in charge of sticky and unsticky for all those Lvl 100+ 7.x MP clerics that can't keep an S3 +10 wiz alive in Rebirth, well geared tanks in Warsong, etc. The stickies destroy the game by creating so many horrible players who've wasted resources.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · July 2013

we don't need people removing guides because they suggest builds that don't allow their glass cannon wiz to play tank. if your g16+10 wiz cant stay alive in RB you fail at playing him, not the cleric.

Despite pures winning every argument about cost and effectiveness: we still get those repeated debates.

if by winning every argument you mean that their supporters provide a few examples of unorthodox squad formations that would be better with pure builds while copmpletely failing to counter the actual facts/typical squad formations/numbers sure

trands · July 2013

Yes many stickies are out-dated and to some points just obsolete.

However, the stickies are mainly guides for newer players. The old guides, even if out-dated, are way more open-minded and friendly then anything that is produced recently. From that point of view, they shouldn't be replaced, as that would only scare people away and lead to pure hypothetical arguing between old players. I don't think anyone these days is capable to write a decent guide for the newer players involving the lower lvls.

I remember the BM forums did an attempt. TheDan made a guide, which was nice and all, but totally focussed on end-game pvp. Todays view is mainly "must do this or you suck" and the demonstration is often just math showing R999 is of better quality then any non-rank gear. The OP of this thread is a perfect example this. Just above, we find yet again the ridiculous statement on 50ish vit points massively gimping magic attack that is way way way higher then it ever was before with current gear and now all the sudden became insufficient to heal a player that can already solo the exposed pve content.

The old guides have the merit, at least most of them, to not just announce a single truth that should be followed and treat the basic questions most players these days don't even think about anymore.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2013

People may agree or disagree with tweakz's view on this but he has a very strong and reasonable point; there are sticky threads that offer guides and information that is no longer viable in game today.

In the past, I had actually contacted a Mod (who has retired now) about this concern but I didn't even receive an answer such as "hey I'm sorry I can't un-sticky threads" or..a reply of any sort so I never brought this up again >.<

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2013

trands wrote: »

Yes many stickies are out-dated and to some points just obsolete.

However, the stickies are mainly guides for newer players. The old guides, even if out-dated, are way more open-minded and friendly then anything that is produced recently. From that point of view, they shouldn't be replaced, as that would only scare people away and lead to pure hypothetical arguing between old players. I don't think anyone these days is capable to write a decent guide for the newer players involving the lower lvls.

I'll have to disagree since there are cases such as this. I'm sorry for bringing up a Venomancer-related one I find that as the best example.

The player uses PW-MY terms that will confuse new players and offers suggestions as to what skills are good & useful and what skills can be overlooked but those suggestions don't apply anymore and will mislead people. Some of them are still true but others aren't.

It was the guide I read and used when I first started playing in 2008 but..things have changed ever since. I find this thread (which luckily is a sticky) much more useful for new players.

I understand what you mean about players focusing too much on endgame and old sticky guides being more open-minded but that doesn't change the fact that they are outdated.

Morridune - Raging Tide · July 2013

what does it matter rly? you look on any class forum ( except maybe veno) and soon as a new player asks advice the theorycrafters all pile in and its "do this or your fail" ( yet give little reason/prof as to why other then "cos every1 says so") mostly what u read is trash often enough given by players who dont have or regularly use the class their advising on or deliberately misleading so to not give away advantages or incur yet another nerf the old guides are simple enough to not **** up ur toons early game and tbh the best way to find out about any class is through ppl in game and actual experience which by lvl50 you hopefully shoulda meet some1 with ( as most low lvl's these days seem to be some high lvl's alt lol)

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · July 2013

Well, any guide is always going to become outdated. Which is why I think the wiki is the right place to put a guide together.

I certainly agree that fights over endgame builds aren't sensible to have in beginners guides - but a bit of guidance (like, I dunno, don't be an arcane barb unless you really really want to) wouldn't go amiss.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2013

I just think there's not much of a point to keep sticky threads of guides/information that are horribly outdated. If you read comments on that guide I linked above you'll see a lot of people asking "what does xx mean?" and "what is xx?" and it's just terribly confusing.

Not trying to hate on that particular guide or anything xD just bringing it as an example.

trands · July 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I understand what you mean about players focusing too much on endgame and old sticky guides being more open-minded but that doesn't change the fact that they are outdated.

I never said they aren't out-dated. I'm just highly sceptical about any of the current forum posters making a guide that doesn't scare everybody away with a "minimum stats for your rank gear and put up your shop to make 10mil+ profit a day so you can get r999 +10". Todays criteria of a guide is only "efficiency" and it's pushed to ridiculous proportions as we saw with aps calculations overflowding the forums. Just like the vit point "issue" on magic attack when G15 nirvana is a cheap weapon.

Been here since end 2008 regularly. The amount of up-to-date nonsense is way bigger and more harmfull then the out-dated parts in the old guides.

And well, this post was already started on the BM forums a while back. Lead to some new guides, mainly TheDan's guide. But nobody seems capable of abording the starter questions like gear, stat points and where to spend spirit first. At least not in an open impartial way that actually concerns the players that actually would read a guide.

Desdi - Sanctuary · July 2013

Hmm, I don't know.
I think there are some forum posters that are capable of putting together good new player-friendly guides.

They should give it a go and if the guide's no good, we can always just leave at what it is; not a sticky.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · July 2013

trands wrote: »

Just like the vit point "issue" on magic attack when G15 nirvana is a cheap weapon.

in tweakz world, 1 vit reduces your mattack so much that you heal way less with g16+10 than a pure build tt99+6 gold.

trands · July 2013

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

in tweakz world, 1 vit reduces your mattack so much that you heal way less with g16+10 than a pure build tt99+6 gold.

Thx for explaining b:thanks I was under the impression that in tweakz world, someone with tt99+6 gold didn't even have the right to play.

Morridune - Raging Tide · July 2013

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

in tweakz world, 1 vit reduces your mattack so much that you heal way less with g16+10 than a pure build tt99+6 gold.

lulz an cos its in forums it must be tru

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · July 2013

I thnk both are true in that world; actually.

Anyway; gauntlet thrown and caught; I posted a new guide in the veno forum.

I got bored about halfway through; so it concentrates more on the lower level stuff; which is probably the right slant anyway.

It doesn't have a great deal in the way of details, but it's a starting point.

I propose it *not* ever become stickied; but instead y'all rip it to shreds, we put it back together better; then make the new better version into a sticky.

ovenusarmanio · July 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I just think there's not much of a point to keep sticky threads of guides/information that are horribly outdated. If you read comments on that guide I linked above you'll see a lot of people asking "what does xx mean?" and "what is xx?" and it's just terribly confusing.

Not trying to hate on that particular guide or anything xD just bringing it as an example.

Good example, unstickied.

trands wrote: »

I never said they aren't out-dated. I'm just highly sceptical about any of the current forum posters making a guide that doesn't scare everybody away with a "minimum stats for your rank gear and put up your shop to make 10mil+ profit a day so you can get r999 +10". Todays criteria of a guide is only "efficiency" and it's pushed to ridiculous proportions as we saw with aps calculations overflowding the forums. Just like the vit point "issue" on magic attack when G15 nirvana is a cheap weapon.

Been here since end 2008 regularly. The amount of up-to-date nonsense is way bigger and more harmfull then the out-dated parts in the old guides.

And well, this post was already started on the BM forums a while back. Lead to some new guides, mainly TheDan's guide. But nobody seems capable of abording the starter questions like gear, stat points and where to spend spirit first. At least not in an open impartial way that actually concerns the players that actually would read a guide.

This is one of the biggest issues. Nobody is writing guides anymore period, let alone ones that help people complete early game and take into account the vast differences in budget, play time, access to a computer capable of letting them merch, faction, etc that a new player will encounter. The last guide I saw I had a lot of in formation just copy and pasted from an older guide, and nobody asked for it to be stickied. :P

@Tweakz

Like the wiki, the content of all the stickies is player made and organized. PWE doesn't tell us what to sticky or unsticky, the players do. Typically someone will make a guide, it will under-go several tweaks, and then the players in that sub-forum will vouch for it being a good guide and request a sticky. The forums have player moderators and the content is largely player made. I have never received a PM that asked me to unstick something with something better. It has nothing to do with cash shop items. And nobody here is my or any other moderators customer. We may be the one to stick threads, but it's usually the players that tell us what to stick. Although sometimes we come across stuff that is a no brainer. *shrug*

Evaluate the sticky posts and guides

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