Curious About Damage :0

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

I had a discussion with my game husband the other day and we figured some things out...note that this is not an attack to anyone's build, playstyle or choices.[/COLOR]

tweakz wrote: »

How dare you resort to logic and reasoning?! Don't you understand that this is a name calling, trash talking, emo forum?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Says the guy that has shown exactly 0 equations

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Regarding delta:
Our AOEs aren't constant the way AOE classes are, but they're still damn good.
I've never had trouble getting invited. Lots of squads know what myriad rainbow does, and want it.
And I kinda like the emergence of spawnpoint delta for BHs. It means far fewer runs where I get relegated to digging beans (which I'm really really good at; but boy is it boring) and watch the run fail without even the tiniest involvement and chance to help.

tweakz wrote: »

Have you?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe it's because you're a veno. As they say on our server, KOSvenos b:laugh

On topic: LA inevitably falls into the archers' and sins' dilemma of having bad def on both ends. Because you get a slight m.def boost from statting magic and because your rings are refinable, though, and because you intend to use your veno as a caster (I think?), you get the option of getting mdef from decent rings, which will cost an arm and a leg.

Example LA build: http://pwcalc.com/a67210a1e94f692f Putting on lowest requirement items with additional wielding-stats (dex and str) help you minimize the amount of points taken out of magic. Level 3 fox form because I was not sure about culti

Here's what I can tell you for each path (assuming 90 atk levels with jones):

AA: max. magic damage, min. pdef, max. m.def

LA: med. m.def, med. p.def, total loss of magic damage from pure AA is a loss of (104-54)+(104-5) = 199 magic, which, with G16 + 10 and an incomparable sapphire shard (easily farmed in weekly sot/abba) you lose 2170.1 base magic attack, roughly 4123.2 on a 0-def level (pve) target

HA: min. m.def, max p. def, total loss of magic damage from pure AA is a loss of (252-54)+(54-5)=247 magic, equal to (same weapon as above) 2693.5 base m.atk, 5117.7 after atk levels

All calculated values are based on an average damage value for G16 + 10 sword with G10 sapphire shard.

Attack level considerations are approximate

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage APS:

For a Sage BM to be 5aps, s/he will need:

Full set of the bad stuff: TT99, G15, TT99 orns

Either R8R chest with -int or 2X int on weapon (usually this means s/he is stuck with Deicides/Striking Dragons, neither of which is remotely good)

On top of that s/he will need to cyclone heel every 15 seconds (Sage Cyclone CD reduced to 15 seconds), a total of 2 seconds lost every spark cycle, or 2 seconds between his/er spark cycles, depending on when s/he casts Cyclone.

http://pwcalc.com/25e1e56865f665cd

>>>>

LA Orn + HA vs. HA orn vs. LA

HA orn

http://pwcalc.com/25e1e56865f665cd

LA orn

http://pwcalc.com/7deb3e6182b9ffc8

+10'd with Vit stones, the HA refining bonus is a glorious 512 HP in exchange for a 9.7% loss in P. Defense (2% loss in reduction) and 13.6% M. Defense (3% Reduction).

At lower gear levels, both HA orns and decent rings +5'd will pretty much overtake the defense bonus of HA arms and legs.

>>>

Demon v. Sage

Tell your mum to switch to demon.

With a -0.1 weapon a demon can potentially look like

http://pwcalc.com/71ad4571bd02fd5f

which is a hell lot more defensive than the sage spark reduction on mix G15/G16/TT99, not the least because the lack of need to cast Cyclone heel gives you 2 seconds more DD time, which amounts to a lot more chi and BP returns.

If you went for -0.05 int and r8r with -int, a demon can look like this with SDs (or 2X -int G16 fists)

http://pwcalc.com/7e0f8842a09632a0

Finally as a Demon with Demon bell you can (and should) constantly keep up the 75% pdef spike for your squad, as well as provide a better HF, have better marrows, better CC with demon roar never missing, and (marginally) better damage spikes from demon mastery crits (sage mastery isn't that much better; the addition is to your WEAPON damage, which means that the actual effect is not big at all; it's probably under 1K on axes but I've done so much math for you already; on +10 SDs it's a pitiful 263 damage).

EDIT: And here comes tweakz, who thinks a tiny bit of extra physical damage gained from going pure str 60 dex is worth massive DD, 12 second triple spark cycles, BP heals, tankability, accuracy, crit, better survivability (unless you statted pure Vit? Roll a WB noob), more HF/GS/MSS than a derpa-axe can ever hope to provide, loss of damage from having to stat ambers to not miss everything. You may not out-damage a sin but you will outdamage everything except maybe a claw archer or claw barb, and even then you have the mastery advantage.

If you're crying about separate gear sets being too expensive then get the **** off of a WR and roll an EP or something; one gearset that isn't even that great covers your *** all the way.

EDIT: Let's see Demon Highland Cleave with +5 R9r axes (R9rr is too variable to use as an example), both axes having ths same str add (like 1 str even makes a difference). Say APS BM has 500 str, you would have 640.

You gain: 140 str on average, lose garnets, your axes end up with damage range 1219-2562

APS BM: 140 str less, 2 Garnet Gems (+150 wep attack), damage range 1369-2712

Demon Highland:

○Highland Cleave

Range　Melee
Mana　210.0
Channel　0.4　seconds
Cast　2.0　seconds
Cooldown　6.0　seconds
Weapon　Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer

Requisite Cultivation　Aware of the Void
Wields the force of a mountain to deal base physical damage plus 100% of weapon
damage plus 3233.0. Affects all enemies
within a 10 meter radius. Has a chance to increase attack rate.

Demon version gives a 20% chance to increase attack rate by 25% for 10 seconds.

Low end of spectrum:

You: (640/150)*1.75*1219 + 1219 + 3233= 13533.9
APS BM: (500/150)*1.75*1369 + 1219 + 3233 = 12437.8

Great, you hit harder, congrats. Let's subtract: 13533.9-12437.8=1095.8, a gain of 8.8%

Higher end:

You: (640/150)*1.75*2562 + 2562 + 3233 =24927.5
APS BM: (500/150)*1.75*2712+2712+3233=21765

Great, you hit harder, congrats. Let's subtract: 24927.5-21765=[COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]3162.5[/COLOR], a gain of 14.5%

Most endgame APS BMs in their axe gear will have over 600 STR anyways, IDK how much you have, but for all the benefits of APS you throw away...you have gained 8.8%-14.5% damage on HL. Congratulations. Dragons count the same wep. damage, the rest of the usual AoEs don't count any weapon damage.

On the other hand, the APSer will have 6% more crit, which already eats up at least 1/2 to 1/3 of your AOE dps, and since this is BM we're talking about, you're thinking of 6% more zerkcrits. Highland is only 100% wep damage. Blade Tornado is 450%, Flame Tsunami is 200%. Your damage lead is disappearing really quickly.

Final thing: Say your tank goes down because of say, lag, cleric DC's (happens lol), or surprise purge (Primal Fear?) or because something like WS wep boss hit with weapon damage debuff with chi skills on CD and spark fresh out. If you were APS, aggro turns to you, boss basically shifts direction, squad goes on. You are heavy armor and survive.

But you're not APS; you have built no aggro whatsoever, tank dies, you have no aggro, boss runs towards the archers and casters, aoe everywhere, debuffs everywhere if boss does that, squishy ranged toons run around, tank resses but can't catch the boss again, lolwipe.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Replies in red

I wrote out a very considerable, long, and mathy reply but posted after you did. Let me quote the part I edited and which I think is most important



By using fists you gain at least secondary or tertiary aggro. If a sin or two are before you and they die, boss still stays in place and you keep tanking it. If they're smart they CotD, subsea strike and let you build up aggro (very quickly; G16 fist/dagger difference is no longer so small) so your better defense can take over. With out your APS aggro the archer is going to be tanking (I have tanked water/wood boss at least twice each now, due to lol debuff killing tanks).

EDIT: I highly recommend you think over the fact that you only get about a 8.8%-14.3% raw damage increase by losing 140 dex.