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UPDATED: Culti Guide - Demon Vs. Sage Archer

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  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Full buffed catabarb means enough charms, Cornered Beast, invoke, Bestial Rage, solid shield, tree of protection, nearly 50K HP. def level hammer, r9rr armor with jades, and +10 or above mdef ornies

    How you gon' kill dat **** solo lol? Even if you wear out invoke, solid shield, and charm you then get Cornered Beast, which means they invoke again, solid shield comes off CD, charm ticks again, etc
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  • Joshcja - SanctuaryJoshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Full buffed catabarb means enough charms, Cornered Beast, invoke, Bestial Rage, solid shield, tree of protection, nearly 50K HP. def level hammer, r9rr armor with jades, and +10 or above mdef ornies

    How you gon' kill dat **** solo lol? Even if you wear out invoke, solid shield, and charm you then get Cornered Beast, which means they invoke again, solid shield comes off CD, charm ticks again, etc

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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary_blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It reminds me of when the cultis were updated and all the demon archers were on the forums saying "Sage Quickshot is over powered, now there's no point to being demon."

    No one said that
  • Eoria - HarshlandsEoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Solo killing a fully buffed cattabarb is pretty sicknasty level damage.

    If these barbs are getting solo'd by an archer when they aren't by a mage, then yeah, I'm gonna question their mages 'cause wtf. O.o;;
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  • Decus - DreamweaverDecus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Oh also, your situational PvP examples make you look like Fleuri v2.0. I'd fix that as well if I were you

    This + your forum title = so much win. Please include a screenshot of a tt99 +5 crossbow in your sig somewhere D:
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  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This + your forum title = so much win. Please include a screenshot of a tt99 +5 crossbow in your sig somewhere D:

    Does that even work? I've never seen it in action and I don't have sage range buff D:
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  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I suppose an archer can air kite and poke at an endgame barb until equipment starts breaking then kill it.

    Or charm breaks, whichever comes first. Really, competent barbs shouldn't be dying 1v1 vs archer nowadays.
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  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary_blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Man, if I had a dollar for every time I saw a sage archer make some stupid claim like this.

    When you say catabarb, everyone thinks 40-50k hp rock solid monster. But tell us the truth now. Was it a real catabarb? Or a barb w/ less than desirable cata-pulling gear, built to wear claws, who got forced in front of a cata because his faction was short on actual catabarbs?

    Unless you can consistently deliver a kill on a 50k hp top class catabarb, which you can't, then you probably have no right to even attempt to use "I soloed a catabarb because sage is gud" as a point for you.
  • Aesthor - Heavens TearAesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Sages are viable but sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud about the weirdest and most unnecessary things.
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  • Mad_Doc - SanctuaryMad_Doc - Sanctuary Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Well I don't know about sage archers, but when I played an r9 demon archer a while ago I soloed the enemy main r9 catabarb, his cleric, bm, sin, and the r9 archer that was trying to protect them. The speed proc on QS is extremely nice to take out the support and purging people. Best hit I got on the barb though was 25k crit but that was with tower debuff. Since I purged and ST that barb, he became 1-shot enabled but your timing has to be dead on. b:chuckle
  • Decus - DreamweaverDecus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Sages are viable but sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud about the weirdest and most unnecessary things.

    This is the best way to put it. I really need to make some room in my sig for this.
    Well I don't know about sage archers, but when I played an r9 demon archer a while ago I soloed the enemy main r9 catabarb, his cleric, bm, sin, and the r9 archer that was trying to protect them. The speed proc on QS is extremely nice to take out the support and purging people. Best hit I got on the barb though was 25k crit but that was with tower debuff. Since I purged and ST that barb, he became 1-shot enabled but your timing has to be dead on. b:chuckle

    What kind of opponents are you facing?!? How inattentive can someone be to let the entire squad go down by one archer? Sorry, I have a hard time believing this. I mean, I am not as endgame-y as I used to be (cba to keep upgrading **** anymore); but, when I was, I couldn't look the wrong way in TW without getting obliterated.
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
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  • Christona - Raging TideChristona - Raging Tide Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Why keep bringing up which culti path is better? One path will never win. The culti path has always been biased off game play and personal bias. Each culti has ups and down. I have a sage 97 archer? Why did i choose sage? Because i loved to hear ppl say how fail i am cuz i was sage. I always laugh when the fail sage archer was the one that didnt die and kept going. Im not going to say sage is bettetr nor that demon is. Its all situational. T?bh anymore ppl are going to claim their culti is better and defend their culti. A simply need of approval :p u can go do all the math. I always tell any class to to ecat and look at skills and make ur decision based on urself.
    For me, sage just looked better. I like the increase in base damage over extra crit. Im biased towards more reliable damage. Its just my play style.
  • DarkSkiesx - DreamweaverDarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I chose demon so I could be 5aps sparked with deicides b:chuckle QQ whay archer no get bp b:cry
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  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This is the best way to put it. I really need to make some room in my sig for this.



    What kind of opponents are you facing?!? How inattentive can someone be to let the entire squad go down by one archer? Sorry, I have a hard time believing this. I mean, I am not as endgame-y as I used to be (cba to keep upgrading **** anymore); but, when I was, I couldn't look the wrong way in TW without getting obliterated.

    A lot of times cat squads go in alone (just cat + support) while the DD mayhem is going on in another lane, so it's not as chaotic.

    I can see a cleric in a cat squad getting sniped off, because the cleric is usually focused on the rest of the squad, and are sometimes in the air as well. Once I followed a cat squad going into my base and killed 3 clerics in the air without the rest of the squad (r9 archers) reacting. They were too busy hitting what's in front of them to help their clerics, and the clerics were too busy focusing on what's in front of them to help each other. Or they were just bad...really 1 sleep and they would have made it through.

    I suppose you can pick off the cleric from stealth then IG barrage. I'm assuming only the archer had decent gear, so the rest of them may well just drop dead if they're not any good with reaction times. Then it's just a matter of dueling the archer, and if he sucks he can go die too. As for the barb...if the rest of the squad was down then the barb might as well not bother trying to devote too much resources to survive, otherwise a cat barb can last quite long under fire from a whole cat kill squad if he uses everything he has.

    There's also a huge gap between "R9 gear" and "JOSD and refined R9 gear" IJS.

    1v1 against an endgame barb is really another story though.
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  • Mad_Doc - SanctuaryMad_Doc - Sanctuary Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Indeed the key to taking out a cats squad is sniping. Took out arcanes first. They go down much faster than the others often in 2 hits. The r9 archer was more challenge but a purge followed by crits finished her off quickly. After that its just you and the barb and tw towers. A sneaky stealthy archer can take out squads of ppl before dying.

    Back on topic, the best path is the one you played most on and can afford. If you can't afford 5.0 without demon path then you shouldn't be looking at sage. Pvp skills and such depends on how well you learn your character.
  • AsMyliuTave - SanctuaryAsMyliuTave - Sanctuary Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Always the same arguments. People aren't really gonna make their choices based on this guide. Even if it wasn't so flawed (comparing skills against each other without even considering combos?) people would still make their own choices. Most (unbiased) people will tell you Demon is better, because Demon IS better. I'm Sage, and basically chose it just to be different. It was a long time before this update, when Sage was even further behind Demon. The gap isn't so big anymore, so it's a bit more viable, but Demon is still better. 1 vs. 1 on a Demon archer I win more than I lose, but against Arcanes (who should be our main targets) Demons are more effective. Sage probably better vs. Heavies, but nobody would choose to fight a Heavy rather than an Arcane anyway, so that point is invalid.
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  • Zen_Archer - Heavens TearZen_Archer - Heavens Tear Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I guess I should have been more clear in my point about cata barbs, cause people obviously can't infer obvious things.

    I have never solo taken down a true well geared cata barb; as I said in my post, those barbs require a team effort.

    The cata barbs I have taken down were not top tier barbs and had less than steller gear where my gear far outclassed them.

    As a sage archer I do much more benefit to my squad for cata-killing purposes simply because I have more magic skills, longer metal debuff skills to help clerics and myself attack, and the quicker channeling and cooldown on my metal AOE. I chose my culti for TW purposes since I was in a cata-killing squad. Again, my play-style.
  • Mad_Doc - SanctuaryMad_Doc - Sanctuary Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I guess I should have been more clear in my point about cata barbs, cause people obviously can't infer obvious things.

    I have never solo taken down a true well geared cata barb; as I said in my post, those barbs require a team effort.

    The cata barbs I have taken down were not top tier barbs and had less than steller gear where my gear far outclassed them.

    As a sage archer I do much more benefit to my squad for cata-killing purposes simply because I have more magic skills, longer metal debuff skills to help clerics and myself attack, and the quicker channeling and cooldown on my metal AOE. I chose my culti for TW purposes since I was in a cata-killing squad. Again, my play-style.


    The example I gave was me soloing a team of people, but that was just how effective a demon archer can be. Now in a team play, demon path will shine as well. You say that your magic debuff is helpful to the team in TW. Sure...if your cleric is well geared and alive. I find that in most TWs back when I still played, most clerics are not as well geared as their HA and LA targets. Also, demon cleric debuffs is better or equivalent than archer and well as seeker debuffs. If you are focused on doing metal damage to support your team, that's fine. But know that your damage compared to an arcane class is no where close. Most of the damage that kills the cata barbs are everything else except metal (most of the time). As an archer, your job is to take out arcane support first. If you fail to do this, your heavies will die and your team fails. When I TWed and I saw my own faction archers attacking cata barbs while their clerics are spamming purify, IH, stream heals, and wings of protection... I rage on them for being silly...oh so very silly and should be talked to for being inattentive and not following instructions (as arcane supports are always first priority targets).

    The most damaging damage an archer can do is barrage. Everything else is kinda MEH. If you find being sage and doing barrage is better since you got 20% more crit after QS then all for it. But if you find that being demon and doing more barrage damager per second is better since you already have high crit, then all for that too. For demon archers, a good defense is a good offense. the faster you take out the enemy, the better your team and faction survives.
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary_blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As a sage archer I do much more benefit to my squad for cata-killing purposes simply because I have more magic skills, longer metal debuff skills to help clerics and myself attack, and the quicker channeling and cooldown on my metal AOE. I chose my culti for TW purposes since I was in a cata-killing squad. Again, my play-style.

    If you chose your culti so that you could hit catabarbs w/ that **** water skill and debuff them for clerics (LOL) then I don't know where you got the idea that you are qualified to write a guide.

    I'd have thought you'd at least say something about 20% hp debuff?
  • Quilue - SanctuaryQuilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Only useful debuff on cat barb is Sage STA or BV for either sides. (though HF will most likely override). Then if you're Demon you can also drain chi. When all of that is done move on.
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  • Aesthor - Heavens TearAesthor - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Archers are most useful against good cat barbs by eating chi and purging them. Demon quickshot can arguably get the latter done faster, and sage can't eat chi at all.

    The magic skills you can use against a barb are nothing compared to the damage a real magic DD can dish out with the help of your purge. Don't waste your time with metal skills until you get the purge off.
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  • HideYoHubby - ArchosaurHideYoHubby - Archosaur Posts: 995 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    If you chose your culti so that you could hit catabarbs w/ that **** water skill and debuff them for clerics (LOL) then I don't know where you got the idea that you are qualified to write a guide.

    I'd have thought you'd at least say something about 20% hp debuff?

    Ignore STA, it`s all bout Frost Arrow guys, it`s all bout Frost Arrow!
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens TearKiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Any archer... sage or demon... who openly claim to hit 25k on a cata barb should be ashamed of him/herself. Those would us with dignity would not walk around and punch babies... nevertheless brag about it. So why are you (anyone) brag about hitting an undergeared barb for 25k.
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  • Walpurga - DreamweaverWalpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Ignore STA, it`s all bout Frost Arrow guys, it`s all bout Frost Arrow!

    hey now I crit 7.4K sage frost arrow on a BM in TW

    did I mention he was self buffed, unmarrowed and in aps gear?
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  • XShadowshotx - Heavens TearXShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    In all honesty, picking YOUR culti path is YOUR choice. Sage or Demon. Research the skills and what each side offers and make a sound judgement. I personally hate all these new sage archers popping out of the woodwork cuz 20% crit boost off quickshot = so OP. Its like they don't even think about the decision.

    I am a demon archer, every skill I could upgraded to demon I did for completion sake, yes call me weird all you want. Not gonna change that, yes there are some instances where the sage side of the spectrum would be better, just as much as demon would be in other situations.

    The choice of sage or demon for your toon is your choice, I cannot and will not stress that enough. But please consider everything you do with your toon. Are you or do you plan to PvP, TW, NW? Are you a purely PvE player? I will always say that archers culti decision is one of the biggest debates still going around, most or all other classes have one side they lean towards.
  • HideYoHubby - ArchosaurHideYoHubby - Archosaur Posts: 995 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    hey now I crit 7.4K sage frost arrow on a BM in TW

    did I mention he was self buffed, unmarrowed and in aps gear?

    Next time I troll ppl, I`ll sage spark Frost Arrow instead of BoA. Still dropping full N3s for 18k crit really got me giggling. Then again 7.4k crit aint horrible for FA, considering it has pretty non existent damage addons on it.
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  • Unholly - MoraiUnholly - Morai Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Stun > Quickshot > Auto attack Combo.
    This combo seems to be a mainstay combo for Sage and Demon archers both. Here is a comparison of the damage output for each during the stun period. The comparison assumes the following before sage/demon bonuses are added: a 1k base damage rate, 50% natural crit rate.

    Formula is (1k Base damage)(total crit rate)(attack rate)(passive base attack increase)(stun time)
    Attack rate for Demon archers is the average between normal attack rate and QS buffed attack rage since it has a 50% proc rate.

    .80 Base Attack Rate (Archers with max defensive gear)
    SAGE - 7,140 damage (1k*1.7*.8*1.05*5)
    DEMON - 5,683 damage (1k*1.64*.99*1*3.5)

    .87 Base Attack Rate (Archers with APS gear)
    SAGE - 7,7665 damage (1k*1.7*.87*1.05*5)
    DEMON - 6,084 damage (1k*1.64*1.06*1*3.5)

    Okay so im rather unskilled archer atm but i dont understand why or even how you can be comparing "stun>QS>auto" between cultivations of archer.
    Reasons:
    1- Why would a sage be using this combo it seems a massive waist of their stun time. Wouldnt QS>stun>auto be a much more efficient DD/Stun combo for a sage archer?
    i can understand why demons would use this because they are more interested in maximising their auto attacks and wouldnt not want to be channelling Stunning if QS buff procs.
    2- Your stun time for these calculations are wrong. You are completely ignoring the channelling and damage of QS. Simply if we are going to take stun>QS>auto as the combo for these calculations then you should be taking off 1.6 seconds off of the stun time of each combo leaving demons with 1.9 seconds of stun time and sages with 3.4.
    3- Wouldnt a better calculation for DD be just looking at the buff time of QS for the two cultivations? Seeing as most players your attacking will use their genie for survival basing DD calculations on stun time seems silly
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  • Elenacostel - Heavens TearElenacostel - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,822 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    2- Your stun time for these calculations are wrong. You are completely ignoring the channelling and damage of QS. Simply if we are going to take stun>QS>auto as the combo for these calculations then you should be taking off 1.6 seconds off of the stun time of each combo leaving demons with 1.9 seconds of stun time and sages with 3.4.

    Sweetiebot, please give Unholly 4 points for taking into account cast / channel time.
  • SweetieBot - LothranisSweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Sweetiebot, please give Unholly 4 points for taking into account cast / channel time.
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear awards 4 points to Unholly - Morai!
    Unholly - Morai is now in 4th place for July 2013 with 4 points (4 points overall).
    Elenacostel - Heavens Tear can still award another 26 points today.

    Check this thread for the current high scores and to learn how to award points to others.
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  • Aquilez - SanctuaryAquilez - Sanctuary Posts: 240 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    when demon qs procs it have the ability to bypass charm some times. i never checked the details but with what i have seen the 2 hits(qs and first normal atack) hit the enemy at same time or something like that. someone posted a video with some tests(i think it was quilue)

    whenever i see a cata barb i will just STA, arrow inferno, search for any healer, debuff again if needed, and only then start atacking, usualy with qs/auto atacks for purge(if barb wasnt purged yet) and only then metal skills (tho i think auto atacks may have higher dps on some cata barbs)

    as asterelle said, the diferences betwen take aim is less than 20%

    if you spark in TW/NW, people will either stun you, gang you or run, unless you ig or anti stun if you anti stun, they will still be able to kill you and if you ig the dmg reduction from sage wont help you, same thing with barrage
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