Endgame sharding

Hippie - Harshlands · June 2013

Soon ill start to shard my BM's gear(which is on morai, but for somereason i cant post with its name), and it gives me quite a headache what to shard. Overall JOSDs are definitely the best choice, but a full set of JOSDs is very expensive too. So in case someone is interested, ive played around with numbers a bit(Asterelles socket calc has BS output, i cant make of anything the numbers it provides), and looking for tips.

So I've checked how two enemys dmg changes on an endgame bm(lvl105, with everything +12, not perfect gear but close enough). Main focus is on selfbuffed state. People will rarely solo a fullbuffed endgame BM, and its fairly fast to selfbuff(which provides tons of def).

Generally vitgems take 1.11-36 times more dmg than JOSD, while giving ~17% extra HP. Considering that i wont have +12 armors anytime soon, the % of extra HP is even higher(~23% with +10 armors).When selfbuffed e1 deals 1.36 times the dmg while e2 deals 1.22 times the dmg. - vit gems will outdo josds as the enemy gets more and more attack lvls.

However im still not 100% convinced, that i wont regret going full vit gem(or full vitgem with few sapphires, im bored of calculations for now), so looking for input, if anyone has any. (my bm is sage)

(Note: english isnt my first language, so in case of mathematical advice keep it simple please, i didnt understand all related posts tbh ^^)

Enemy 1:

10 000 dmg
lvl105
110 attack lvl

Enemy 2:

10 000 dmg
lvl105
160 attack lvl

Without gems:

Purged
23k hp
9k mdef(0.68)
19k pdef
59 def lvl
e1: 4832
e2: 6432

Selfbuffed
23k hp
15.8k pdef
24k mdef(0.85)
59 def lvl
e1: 2265
e2: 3015

30.5k hp
29k mdef(0.87)
22.5kpdef
59 def lvl
e1: 1963
e2: 2613

Full Josd: +48 def lvl > 24*3*35kk= 2520kk
(not detailing, as its quite simple)

Purged
e1: 3296
e2: 4896

Selfbuffed
e1: 1545
e2: 2295

Fullbuffed:
e1: 1339
e2: 1989

Full vit gem + 240 vit > 24*40kk= 960kk

Purged:
27k hp
10.8k mdef(0.72)
21.3k pdef
59 def lvl
e1: 4228
e2: 5628

Selfbuffed:
27k hp
25.7k mdef(0.86)
18k pdef
59 def lvl
e1: 2114
e2: 2814

Fullbuffed:
35.7k hp
30.1k mdef(0.88)
24.7k pdef
59 def lvl
e1: 1812
e2: 2412

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2013

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

vit gems will outdo josds as the enemy gets more and more attack lvls.

This is why I chose to do a mix of sharding. For me the turning point was when the opponent had around 75 attack levels for phys damage and 110 attack levels for magic damage. Can't remember exact numbers. Either way, our opponent will almost be guaranteed to have more than 75/110 attack levels in endgame so vit gems gave me more survivability.

I kind of looked at it this way. Most DD's will be around 150 attack levels average (excluding the 190+ and the 120 attack level DDs). So they're doing 250% damage (base + another 150%). If you have 24 JoSD bring them down to 102 atk levels so 202% damage. You've reduce them from 250% to 202%. 202/250=80.8, soyou've removed 19.2% of their damage. I know there's a more exact way to calculate this but its general. As you pointed out, 24 vit stones gives you over 20% more hp. It also gives you about 10% more defense reduction, too.

What I personally am doing is my r9t3 pieces get vit gems except for 1 piece I've sharded pure Sapphires. Five caster opponents are pretty much pure magical, and archers and seekers are both, I better have some mdef.. R9t3 has big defenses, vit multiplies defenses, makes sense. My aps gear doesn't have huge defenses is used primarily for PvE, so JoSD is still more efficient in there. Rather than have a helm and cape specifically for PvP and refine two things I'm gonna JoSD my helm and cape and use them for both pvp and pve. So in the end I'll have 4 Sapphires, 8 JoSD, and 12 vit stones. This seems like a healthy(ish) mix and also means 1/3 of my aps set will be JoSD allowing the rest to be vit or DoT.

Hippie - Harshlands · June 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is why I chose to do a mix of sharding. For me the turning point was when the opponent had around 75 attack levels for phys damage and 110 attack levels for magic damage. Can't remember exact numbers. Either way, our opponent will almost be guaranteed to have more than 75/110 attack levels in endgame so vit gems gave me more survivability.

I kind of looked at it this way. Most DD's will be around 150 attack levels average (excluding the 190+ and the 120 attack level DDs). So they're doing 250% damage (base + another 150%). If you have 24 JoSD bring them down to 102 atk levels so 202% damage. You've reduce them from 250% to 202%. 202/250=80.8, soyou've removed 19.2% of their damage. I know there's a more exact way to calculate this but its general. As you pointed out, 24 vit stones gives you over 20% more hp. It also gives you about 10% more defense reduction, too.

What I personally am doing is my r9t3 pieces get vit gems except for 1 piece I've sharded pure Sapphires. Five caster opponents are pretty much pure magical, and archers and seekers are both, I better have some mdef.. R9t3 has big defenses, vit multiplies defenses, makes sense. My aps gear doesn't have huge defenses is used primarily for PvE, so JoSD is still more efficient in there. Rather than have a helm and cape specifically for PvP and refine two things I'm gonna JoSD my helm and cape and use them for both pvp and pve. So in the end I'll have 4 Sapphires, 8 JoSD, and 12 vit stones. This seems like a healthy(ish) mix and also means 1/3 of my aps set will be JoSD allowing the rest to be vit or DoT.

In fact earlier on ive started to do the calculations for 4 G12 sapphs, 8 vit gems and 12 josds, but the sapphs had so little effect that i gave up on the idea of using them(with sage magic marrow only, they didnt add a single % of reduction - i didnt look too much into it though)

But thats fairly similar to how i think, happy to see that :P.

SpearSpark - Heavens Tear · June 2013

i dont think vit stone will ever out do josd, josd is pure defense lvl that cancel out att lvl which makes your hp more effective, if you take a 25k hit you will die with vit stone but with jades you will take 17k, the biggest problem for me is the price too, its about 165 mil per josd in my server compare to 39 mil per vit stone, i currently have full r9t3 + 10 and 11 19k unbuffed hp with all exclusive citrines in everything, if josd doesnt drop in price in a few month ill start sharding vit stone since that is the second best choice.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2013

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

they didnt add a single % of reduction - i didnt look too much into it though)

But thats fairly similar to how i think, happy to see that :P.

Yah, its sort of an unpopular way to think right now.

Not sure for sages about mag marrow. I personally have 20.7k mdef with mag marrow and 1 piece Sapphire sharded. It'll go up to like 22k after the vit stones. You do get fractions of a % even if it doesn't show change, so 18k and 87% reduction still gets alot more reduction when you're 19k and still 87% reduction.

SpearSpark - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i dont think vit stone will ever out do josd, josd is pure defense lvl that cancel out att lvl which makes your hp more effective, if you take a 25k hit you will die with vit stone but with jades you will take 17k, the biggest problem for me is the price too, its about 165 mil per josd in my server compare to 39 mil per vit stone, i currently have full r9t3 + 10 and 11 19k unbuffed hp with all exclusive citrines in everything, if josd doesnt drop in price in a few month ill start sharding vit stone since that is the second best choice.

I've been challenging it for years, ever since I did an effective hp calculation for r9 barbs and found that with just r9 first tier they still had higher effective hp with vit stones than JoSD. That becomes more true with r9t3. Obviously, barbs get more benefit from vit stones than we do though so I think for them r9 was the tipping point and for us r9t3 was the tipping point.

Your example isn't too realistic btw. Against a 150 attack opponent that'd require 72 def levels to drop it from 25k to 17k and JoSD shards would only give 48 so more realistic would be about a 5.5k difference, not 8k. A vit bm would have 3780 more hp (24 vit stones x 15hp per vit x 1.05% cube neck) so we're comparing a 21.2k JoSD BM to a 25k vit bm and then the vit bm would get a higher mdef reduction.

People continue to think of JoSDs as 1% reduction which just isn't true in PvP because your opponent always has more attack levels (sad but true, it's basically impossible for us to get more def than they have attack). So think def levels as not as reducing by 1% but more as reducing by the fraction of attack levels.

SpearSpark - Heavens Tear · June 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yah, its sort of an unpopular way to think right now.

Not sure for sages about mag marrow. I personally have 20.7k mdef with mag marrow and 1 piece Sapphire sharded. It'll go up to like 22k after the vit stones. You do get fractions of a % even if it doesn't show change, so 18k and 87% reduction still gets alot more reduction when you're 19k and still 87% reduction.

I've been challenging it for years, ever since I did an effective hp calculation for r9 barbs and found that with just r9 first tier they still had higher effective hp with vit stones than JoSD. That becomes more true with r9t3. Obviously, barbs get more benefit from vit stones than we do though so I think for them r9 was the tipping point and for us r9t3 was the tipping point.

Your example isn't too realistic btw. Against a 150 attack opponent that'd require 72 def levels to drop it from 25k to 17k and JoSD shards would only give 48 so more realistic would be about a 5.5k difference, not 8k. A vit bm would have 3780 more hp (24 vit stones x 15hp per vit x 1.05% cube neck) so we're comparing a 21.2k JoSD BM to a 25k vit bm and then the vit bm would get a higher mdef reduction.

People continue to think of JoSDs as 1% reduction which just isn't true in PvP because your opponent always has more attack levels (sad but true, it's basically impossible for us to get more def than they have attack). So think def levels as not as reducing by 1% but more as reducing by the fraction of attack levels.

the numbers are just from a little test i did with some friends the +12 wiz hits me around 25 to 26k max outta 50ish tries and when we tried on another bm with full jades and reforge r9 ring and emperor tome it never hit him past 17k, i know the r9 reforge ring gives 1.5k more mdef i was just lazy to type it all out

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · June 2013

SpearSpark - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i know the r9 reforge ring gives 1.5k more mdef i was just lazy to type it all out

that ring. I don't have it yet and I'm seriously debating tomb or ring first.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2013

A few notes

A: max def level on a bm is just over 145 with a R8R axe on, with R999 axes def level caps at just over 110, so unless they're full Attack+2 your lookign at a slightly higher than 40% damage reduction if you go all in,a little under 30% if your borderline

B: using 24 sockets for just under 4k hp is terrible when you have 21-22k hp base plus the whole *def gained is not effected by buffs* part.

C: saph sharding with 2x NW phys rings+def level wep lives unboosted JOSD zerk crit arma at 50% hp with phys marrow + wind shield or demon bell (in aps 3 item swap, you'll live with just phys marrow in full r999) and takes slightly less than 40% from an average damage spark sutra combo.

JOSD+def level weapon swap is probably your "best" TW/NW setup, with mag def+ornie swaps as best 1v1 if your good at flipping gear around.

Vit only gives similar results to full JOSD if you neglect a def level wep and are self buffed.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

that ring. I don't have it yet and I'm seriously debating tomb or ring first.

Think I'm the only person that hates the R999 ring.

then again I'm a def stat ****

Hippie - Harshlands · June 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

A few notes

A: max def level on a bm is just over 145 with a R8R axe on, with R999 axes def level caps at just over 110, so unless they're full Attack+2 your lookign at a slightly higher than 40% damage reduction if you go all in,a little under 30% if your borderline

B: using 24 sockets for just under 4k hp is terrible when you have 21-22k hp base plus the whole *def gained is not effected by buffs* part.

C: saph sharding with 2x NW phys rings+def level wep lives unboosted JOSD zerk crit arma at 50% hp with phys marrow + wind shield or demon bell (in aps 3 item swap, you'll live with just phys marrow in full r999) and takes slightly less than 40% from an average damage spark sutra combo.

JOSD+def level weapon swap is probably your "best" TW/NW setup, with mag def+ornie swaps as best 1v1 if your good at flipping gear around.

Vit only gives similar results to full JOSD if you neglect a def level wep and are self buffed.

Honestly, this made little sense to me(the notes)

Besides advertising r8r weapon. I dont plan on using one with def lvls, as the ability to purge seems more important to me. It sounds like a good idea for TW though.

Surviving in self buffed state is more important, as fully buffed u will be very hard to kill anyway.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · June 2013

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

Honestly, this made little sense to me(the notes)

Besides advertising r8r weapon. I dont plan on using one with def lvls, as the ability to purge seems more important to me. It sounds like a good idea for TW though.

Surviving in self buffed state is more important, as fully buffed u will be very hard to kill anyway.

TL;DR version

Vit is on par with JOSD self buffed with a def level wep.

Vit is better vs full +2 attack level shards.

Vit is worse in any other situation.

This is with demon marrows/bell. with sage I guess its a matter of what you value more self buffed, phys def in marrow (vit) or more caster hate (josd) if your focusing self buffed

Hippie - Harshlands · July 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

TL;DR version

Vit is on par with JOSD self buffed with a def level wep.

Vit is better vs full +2 attack level shards.

Vit is worse in any other situation.

This is with demon marrows/bell. with sage I guess its a matter of what you value more self buffed, phys def in marrow (vit) or more caster hate (josd) if your focusing self buffed

i see, thanks

for now im leaning towards ~16 josds ~8 vitgems, my only concern is(besides the costs), that using josds "lowers" the effectiveness of vit gems

Joshcja - Sanctuary · July 2013

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

i see, thanks

for now im leaning towards ~16 josds ~8 vitgems, my only concern is(besides the costs), that using josds "lowers" the effectiveness of vit gems

If you do go jades go full in R999. If you really want vit go for +20 adds on rings/neck via engraving, you can get 8 sockets worth from rings alone.

if you have like an APS cape instead of g13+ feel free to vit that.

You'll probably still need ring swaps to deal with sins seekers and wizzies.

Final note: Sharding is probably the last step of gear building (Unless you shard saphs), its less effective than +12ing any given item, engraving, or rerolling.

Fissile - Archosaur · July 2013

240 vit adds 19.2% (plus a nominal fixed amount) to your defenses.

The effectiveness of vit sharding will change drastically based on your choice of accessories and their refinement. There is more discussion on this same topic on the Mystic forum here.

For all casters, jades don't make sense unless you plan on going full +12 with JoSD. If you are sitting at r9s3+10 gear and endgame ornaments and considering sharding JoSD (but not refining +12) you would be better off refining your ornaments to +12 and sharding full vit for the same money. Of course the case won't be precisely the same for BMs. But in general:

- The bigger your HP pool or lower the attacker's atk level advantage, the better off you are with jades

- Increasing your base resistances or attacker's atk level advantage increases the benefit of vit stones.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · July 2013

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

240 vit adds 19.2% (plus a nominal fixed amount) to your defenses.

The effectiveness of vit sharding will change drastically based on your choice of accessories and their refinement. There is more discussion on this same topic on the Mystic forum here.

For all casters, jades don't make sense unless you plan on going full +12 with JoSD. If you are sitting at r9s3+10 gear and endgame ornaments and considering sharding JoSD (but not refining +12) you would be better off refining your ornaments to +12 and sharding full vit for the same money. Of course the case won't be precisely the same for BMs. But in general:

- The bigger your HP pool or lower the attacker's atk level advantage, the better off you are with jades

- Increasing your base resistances or attacker's atk level advantage increases the benefit of vit stones.

The % buff amount from vit is not multiplied by buffs and fully buffed bm stats are just...huge. with +12 ornies its around 20-25k phys and 20-40k mag depending on sharding and ornie swaps. 20% on top of a 210% buff minimum is kinda...nonfactor. same for the 4kish hp gain, 22k base hp in full +12is sickening.

Vit stones are quite viable on seekers/barbs due to their lack of phys/mag buffs and high HP per vit. Not so much on BM's or other "3rd buff" classes.

having endgame ornaments (900 mill for neck alone) 3rd cast R9 and full +10 without having mixed HP garnet sharding and havign no intention of going to +12 is an extreme corner case, even more so when you only look at unbuffed stats.

TL:DR Man, I should really compare shard A to shard B in shard A's absolute ideal condition while excluding the possible conditions that would improve shard B.

Theres really only 2 reasons not to shard jades on a BM.

A: Your too poor to afford more than immaculates

B: Your an extremely focused 1v1 build that either shards M def (demon) or vit (sage) and manipulates def via ornie swaps to restrict any classes kill strat to 1 long CD method that you cover with geni. Or your a hyper aggro plzplzplzlivetostun build that shards +2 attack gems and tries to kill anything not HA in 1 stun.

Hippie - Harshlands · July 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you do go jades go full in R999. If you really want vit go for +20 adds on rings/neck via engraving, you can get 8 sockets worth from rings alone.

if you have like an APS cape instead of g13+ feel free to vit that.

You'll probably still need ring swaps to deal with sins seekers and wizzies.

Final note: Sharding is probably the last step of gear building (Unless you shard saphs), its less effective than +12ing any given item, engraving, or rerolling.

The order of upgrades isnt question of effectiveness, but rather the market. Its only cheap to get +11 and +12 with dragons fire pack sales.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · July 2013

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

The order of upgrades isnt question of effectiveness, but rather the market. Its only cheap to get +11 and +12 with dragons fire pack sales.

And its never ever cheap to jade.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · July 2013

Hippie - Harshlands wrote: »

The order of upgrades isnt question of effectiveness, but rather the market. Its only cheap to get +11 and +12 with dragons fire pack sales.

Rough estimate on sanctuary

Josd = 120m

+12 orbs = 250m, make it 240m

2 josd = 1 orb.

For +12 all your gear, you can get 22 jades and be at +11. Same cost, which is more effective? b:shocked, no idea.

Jades are usually constant in prices, so are +11 and +12 orbs. If you plan on making the +11 and +12 yourself, that is a different matter.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · July 2013

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Rough estimate on sanctuary

Josd = 120m

+12 orbs = 250m, make it 240m

2 josd = 1 orb.

For +12 all your gear, you can get 22 jades and be at +11. Same cost, which is more effective? b:shocked, no idea.

Jades are usually constant in prices, so are +11 and +12 orbs. If you plan on making the +11 and +12 yourself, that is a different matter.

standard +10 bm R999 sits at 16700 hp, 450 for 1 peice +11 = 2.7%
44/230 (19.1% reduced) vs 48/230 (20.9% reduced)

2.7% vs 1.8%

Standard +11 bm (cape/hat at 10) 18700, +12 = 580 hp gained = 3.1% gained
44/230 vs 48/230 remains constant

3.1% vs 1.8%

With 3/4 R999 items +12 hp is 20900, 580 hp gained = 2.7%

Obviously ornies are worth +12ing as well, def is flat out better than def level.

Cape/Hat are argueable but ya, JOSD is the last thing you do.

Note that I left out the 10% hp add from neck/chest on hp btw so its even more skewed in refining's favor.

TL:DR Yes refining is better bang for buck.

Personally? Still going saphs.

Jaabg - Sanctuary · July 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Personally? Still going saphs.

I think i will +12 the gear, and for a few weeks in tw, nw, i'll walk around in shabby sapphires b:pleased.

When i calculated long time ago, ornaments going to +12, rings to, was a far better option for surviving than getting stones of any kind, and refining the gear did a major boost as well.

Endgame sharding

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