RT server 20k token price
RyuTiger - Raging Tide
Posts: 308 Arc User
I ask people why 20k per token and i got answers that no one buy packs anymore and that is why price rise and will stay like that. For me as a barb-tanker I really need HP herbs and is hard with normal ones. Maybe PWI should let the pack prices a little low because 1 GOLD cost 1,5 MIL and I will not pay for 2 packs and get 30 tokens. Maybe the best idea is to put the herbs at NPC so we dont have to wait for others to buy packs and sell us tokens. I dont know what the best idea is to have not so expensive tokens, maybe you guys know....
Post edited by RyuTiger - Raging Tide on
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I would advise to run some bhs and then do your divine quests. For myself it is more than enough. I have several alts pushing 3k hp/mp pots each. Now a days the only thing i buy consistently with tokens are teles.0
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Gnip - Raging Tide wrote: »I would advise to run some bhs and then do your divine quests. For myself it is more than enough. I have several alts pushing 3k hp/mp pots each. Now a days the only thing i buy consistently with tokens are teles.
Yes those are the best after HP herbs. But I am a hard farmer and I will need a lot of those and I dont always get quests with pots. i am just upset about the tokens things because the herbs are just perfect for FWS for example and not all of us have R9 and can use normal potions. Is very sad some of us depend on tokens to have HP herbs and I am not proud of it.0 -
Prices on Archosaur server for tokens have gotten much higher than normal as well. Good thing I bought over 10,000 not too long ago.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Over 19K on Lost too. b:bye0
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Actually on RT this can be blamed on merchants. Lately some richer merchants have bought token shops empty when they've been around 14-15k and rose the prices to around 21-23k being the only sellers as others had no tokens to sell anymore. They've done this enough much that the prices have now established above 19k when other catshops don't drop the prices down anymore like they did when this started.f:fume
And sadly, Kitty can't try to come to this business to lower the general prices as Kitty just gets smoked out of business(Kitty tried to do this about a half year ago as Kitty doesn't like prices being high as high prices are only good for merchants)f:angry.
Merchants don't like too low prices.f:shame[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)0 -
Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »Actually on RT this can be blamed on merchants. Lately some richer merchants have bought token shops empty when they've been around 14-15k and rose the prices to around 21-23k being the only sellers as others had no tokens to sell anymore. They've done this enough much that the prices have now established above 19k when other catshops don't drop the prices down anymore like they did when this started.f:fume
And sadly, Kitty can't try to come to this business to lower the general prices as Kitty just gets smoked out of business(Kitty tried to do this about a half year ago as Kitty doesn't like prices being high as high prices are only good for merchants)f:angry.
Merchants don't like too low prices.f:shame
I cant immagine people cornering the token market. Surely it is possible, but not beneficial. To keep the price higher than supply and demand would make it be, they would have to keep stacking tokens for billions of coins and if they ever try to sell them again, the prices will drop like a rock and it will be their own loss. I think you are blaming the merchants while the real cause must be in the ballans vs supply (pack buyers) and demand (token users)
Unless those rich merchant would be stacking millions of tokens (note that the token market is about something like 100.000 tokens per day at least, possibly a few times that. To significantly hurt the supply demand ratio youd have to stack a few dozen k tokens per day), merchants cannot just decide not to sell lower while the market would justify lower prices unless they agree on prices all together and that includes everyone else on the server who would choose to step into the market to abuse this situation.
Merchants really dont care what the prices are. profit can be made at 10k or 20k equally well. The only thing i dont like in the token bussiness is a volatile price since i am playing the market as a merchant and not a speculant.
Is anything new added to the demand side that people use tokens for ?
It is hardly possible that everyone all of a sudden got to their senses and stopped buying packs ?0 -
Buy packs.0
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HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »Merchants really dont care what the prices are. profit can be made at 10k or 20k equally well.
But the problem is: They have bought tokens mid-pricely from other catshops and selling them higher with around 30% profit. Merchants on RT are enough rich to keep other catshops empty so they are able to create a monopoly. And as tokens are used for various things without an alternative, there's always some demand for them no matter how much they cost.
And if someone tries to sell them cheaper, they just buy them out. "More tokens to sell with profit", they think.
So the law of supply and demand doesn't really apply here 'cause of skewed competition 'caused by merchants having a much higher base capital than casual token sellers(these merchants are around the highest grade in WarrenWolf's merchant classification as opposed to casual token sellers being type II if Kitty remembers right).HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »Is anything new added to the demand side that people use tokens for ?
It is hardly possible that everyone all of a sudden got to their senses and stopped buying packs ?
Yush, people buy tokens these days instead of packs as packs are so much more expensive at least on RT. Might be the reason for red spam being much rarer than before, too.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)0 -
because the flow of new supply has dropped sharply, as pack opening has dropped off a lot. Good on the merchants who realized that supply and influx had reached the critical point were value can be manipulated by one or very few people.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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kitty, i dont agree with all you explain. I think you should read some information to really understand market mechanics. Supply and demand cant really be beaten at a benefit. Sure as i say people could try, but they will hurt themselves the most and such attempts will usually not last very long. This is of course in game where the market is simple and pure. In real life where there are all kind of derivatives, huge leverages and the option to let companies go broke or bailed out and leave someone else with the losses, it is different and the idea of manipulated markets is much more real.
If they would buy out other shops, and sell for more, they will reduce the demand for tokens with this high price. If supply of tokens is not reduced, many people would be trying to sell tokens and these market manipulators would have to be omnipresent to buy up all the tokens on the server and then stack for example 20% of them in their bank and sell the other 80%.
If they would be doing this, i would be the most gratefull merchant ever. Id be incredibly happy for them buying out my shop because i will simply increase my buying price to restock. All the way up to the point where my selling price is their selling price -10 and my buying price is their selling price -100. I make 90 profit per token, i am happy. (kind of happy, i prefer 200 margin, but this is about as far as im willing to go when needed)
Where now does their unfair profit come from ? are they going to stop me from buying tokens by increasing their buy price to less than 90 below their sell price ? That isnt so incredibly profitable is it ? And meanwhile they are stacking huge amounts of tokens in their bank at a rediculous price.
really it must be in supply and demand. Both are possible. But since appearently it is on multiple servers, i cant imagine everyone learning not to buy packs at the same time. Or did the price of packs increase ? (i am just returning from travel and havent been ingame for half a year, so i dont know all this)0 -
Well, you kinda answered this yourself. Since the supply has reduced lately, they can keep buying out the other shops to resupply as others' resupply would still be enough low that the supply and demand are pretty equal with their higher prices. And as token market is centered around w. archo banker on RT, it's not hard for them to be omnipresent in the market. And they're not actually even trying to be omnipresent all the time. They see other token sellers rise their prices and then lower when the competition starts. When prices have gone down enough, these market manipulators resupply themselves by buying others empty. And as they seem to have tendency to do this around big events, when the demand is highest, they get their supply also sold. Their token buying price is at same level as other sellers(or when they buy others empty, they do it when the difference between general buying and selling price is minimal) so they can't even make losses because of that but have large price range to play with. These merchants really know their economic stuff, Kitty has to admit.
And before saying anything about Kitty's knowledge of market mechanics, Kitty's really even studied economics a bit so Kitty knows pretty well how markets work.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)0 -
kitty: i feel your pain, on sanctuary when token prices hit 12k it hurts, when they hit 14k i stop buying.
The problem is if the big guys keep on buying out smaller people at their lower selling prices, they keep on exhausting their earlier stock and replacing it with current price stock. Let's say you bought 100 tokens (there are only 100 available right now) for 13k. Sold them at 23k, 10k profit, someone opened packs and sold 10 tokens at 22k. You lower the price at 21k, they go 20k, you go 19k, they go 18k. You buy them out at 18k, and raise it to 23k again.
The new stock you bought was at 18k, the previous stock that got replaced sold at 23k. Now you have 10 tokens at 18k and 90 tokens at 13k. If you keep on doing this, a point will come where all your tokens will be 18k price.
If someone comes and sells the tokens at 17k, you will make 1~2k instant loss per token.
It may hurt for now, but in the long run these token merchants better know when to quit the market. I am guessing the population is small on the RT server for 1~some people to do that to tokens. That means tying up a few billion coins in tokens, if a merchant is somewhat smart, you will not tie up that much money in one item and use that pricing strategy to sell the item. I wouldn't at least, way too little profit for that much work.
In a month to three months i make 1~3 billion coins depending on sales. I don't see why people will invest such a large amount in that one market. If they read warrenwolfy's guide, they will be experiencing the issue of selling goods. You just can not make huge profits anymore like before, but if you are smart about timings, things work out if you diversify.
All i can say is be patient, the market should return in a few weeks if not a few days. Just wait for a good pack sale, cash shoppers will come help you out b:victory.0 -
Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »kitty: i feel your pain, on sanctuary when token prices hit 12k it hurts, when they hit 14k i stop buying.
The problem is if the big guys keep on buying out smaller people at their lower selling prices, they keep on exhausting their earlier stock and replacing it with current price stock. Let's say you bought 100 tokens (there are only 100 available right now) for 13k. Sold them at 23k, 10k profit, someone opened packs and sold 10 tokens at 22k. You lower the price at 21k, they go 20k, you go 19k, they go 18k. You buy them out at 18k, and raise it to 23k again.
The new stock you bought was at 18k, the previous stock that got replaced sold at 23k. Now you have 10 tokens at 18k and 90 tokens at 13k. If you keep on doing this, a point will come where all your tokens will be 18k price.
If someone comes and sells the tokens at 17k, you will make 1~2k instant loss per token.
It may hurt for now, but in the long run these token merchants better know when to quit the market. I am guessing the population is small on the RT server for 1~some people to do that to tokens. That means tying up a few billion coins in tokens, if a merchant is somewhat smart, you will not tie up that much money in one item and use that pricing strategy to sell the item. I wouldn't at least, way too little profit for that much work.
In a month to three months i make 1~3 billion coins depending on sales. I don't see why people will invest such a large amount in that one market. If they read warrenwolfy's guide, they will be experiencing the issue of selling goods. You just can not make huge profits anymore like before, but if you are smart about timings, things work out if you diversify.
All i can say is be patient, the market should return in a few weeks if not a few days. Just wait for a good pack sale, cash shoppers will come help you out b:victory.
So the best thing to do or make people low the price again is to stop buying. Hmm...I like it! The best thing was for people to stop buying packs for good and then maybe Pwi will low the prices at packs cuz I am not paying 1 gold for 30 tokens.0 -
Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »Well, you kinda answered this yourself. Since the supply has reduced lately, they can keep buying out the other shops to resupply as others' resupply would still be enough low that the supply and demand are pretty equal with their higher prices. And as token market is centered around w. archo banker on RT, it's not hard for them to be omnipresent in the market. And they're not actually even trying to be omnipresent all the time. They see other token sellers rise their prices and then lower when the competition starts. When prices have gone down enough, these market manipulators resupply themselves by buying others empty. And as they seem to have tendency to do this around big events, when the demand is highest, they get their supply also sold. Their token buying price is at same level as other sellers(or when they buy others empty, they do it when the difference between general buying and selling price is minimal) so they can't even make losses because of that but have large price range to play with. These merchants really know their economic stuff, Kitty has to admit.
And before saying anything about Kitty's knowledge of market mechanics, Kitty's really even studied economics a bit so Kitty knows pretty well how markets work.
well im eager to get into it
You should too, any situation that you know what is going in offers opportunities for profit pretty much. 0 -
HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »Unless those rich merchant would be stacking millions of tokens (note that the token market is about something like 100.000 tokens per day at least, possibly a few times that. To significantly hurt the supply demand ratio youd have to stack a few dozen k tokens per day), merchants cannot just decide not to sell lower while the market would justify lower prices unless they agree on prices all together and that includes everyone else on the server who would choose to step into the market to abuse this situation.
I can say with a high degree of certainty that isn't the case. You can get a good estimate of the number of packs being opened just by keeping track of the duke shouts messages. For every Perfect Token of Best luck that comes out of a pack, roughly 1500-2500 normal Tokens of Luck are generated. I leave my cat shop up with all chat turned off except whispers (duke shouts and horns can't be turned off) and I can say yesterday on Archosaur there were around a dozen Best Luck tokens awarded. This will vary based on server activity but I think it is safe to say the total volume of tokens is more like 25,000 - 50,000 during the weekdays and maybe 50,000 - 100,000 on the weekends (I would have to check on a weekend to know for sure).
But your core point remains valid. No one on Archosaur (and probably any other server) has enough buying power to put a significant dent in the token market. Unless there is someone hiding 50,000 million coins somewhere.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »But your core point remains valid. No one on Archosaur (and probably any other server) has enough buying power to put a significant dent in the token market. Unless there is someone hiding 50,000 million coins somewhere.
I bet there are a few people out there that got at least close to that amount of money.."In the beginning, it was claimed that all in Perfect World were equal. But now it seems that some are more equal than others..." ~ Lost City Recluse0 -
Well i came up with that number because if i have a good day in token merchanting meaning that i am personally online to correct my prices and thus have the best prices for about 15 hours a day and have my shop sell out another 10k during the night. i would make 6million coins at a usual profit of 200 per token. That means i am moving 30k tokens myself alone.
So i figured since i the other guys who might be doing less bussiness than i still seem to be enough bussiness to keep doing it, the totall must be significantly higher. But yes, i guess when i said multiple times 100k that is likely to be an overestimate yes
But me turning over 30k tokens and the total being 25 - 50k.... would please me very much
edit: well, i guess i am remembering the best days anyway and those are probably the weekend days so then the numbers would fit quite well. Also, all i am saying is from the time i was playing half a year ago. 3 more days and i will be back online 0 -
If the price of tokens is abnormally high, buy packs and sell the tokens. Let the free market take care of it.
1) You'll make good coin by selling the inflated tokens (price your wares just a little lower than the going rate). If the tokens are really above the break-even point, you can then turn the coins back into gold at a profit.
2) The high prices should be drawing sellers into the market. (See #1.) As Hruns is trying to explain, this will eventually break any monopoly and drag the price down through competition.
It's just like RL: If a company is abusive and unpopular, beat them in the marketplace.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »If the price of tokens is abnormally high, buy packs and sell the tokens. Let the free market take care of it.
If RyuTiger is correct in price, then that's 1 gold for 30 tokens. Would you pay 1 gold for 30 tokens?0 -
That's so expensive!0
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Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »If RyuTiger is correct in price, then that's 1 gold for 30 tokens. Would you pay 1 gold for 30 tokens?
That assumes there is nothing coming out of the packs except tokens.
If that WERE the case, then tokens at 20k would be underpriced. People would charge what they had been charged for them, plus a profit. As it stands now, tokens reach the market as a byproduct of people buying packs to get Scroll of Tome or mounts or such. The math isn't valid unless that's taken into account.
No I wouldn't buy 34 tokens for a gold ..... unless demand drove the market to that price and I didn't have a better alternative. Such is the free market.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
RyuTiger - Raging Tide wrote: »I ask people why 20k per token and i got answers that no one buy packs anymore and that is why price rise and will stay like that. For me as a barb-tanker I really need HP herbs and is hard with normal ones. Maybe PWI should let the pack prices a little low because 1 GOLD cost 1,5 MIL and I will not pay for 2 packs and get 30 tokens. Maybe the best idea is to put the herbs at NPC so we dont have to wait for others to buy packs and sell us tokens. I dont know what the best idea is to have not so expensive tokens, maybe you guys know....
I agree with adding crab/herb to an NPC or maybe let us manufacture it like you can BH wine. I'm at that level where I'm too low to get the Void Divine Honors so I have no choice but to use herb if I want to use certain attacks (BOA on my archer or Vortex on my Seeker). But the high price of tokens are really starting to milk me of my coin. And buying packs is not really an option. I mean if high tokens prices are hurting me, buying packs will hurt even more as they are more expensive.
Another problem I'm finding with the high prices of tokens is making my skill books. Buying 450 tokens (at 12k+ each) to end up with a skill book that I already have and can only sell for 100k (if I'm lucky) is not very cost effective. Why the hell is it so hard to make your demon/sage skill books. f:fumeAstriaFae
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I looked to the stars, my aim true.
Heart peirced, the light flowed.
And from the dust of Sagittarrius,
I crafted a bow.0 -
I never said I want free tokens or free HP herbs, i just say let us made them without tokens because I really cant play without herbs and is not fair to dance how people who sell tokens sing.....(A way of speaking)
I just want herbs to come in other way then tokens. What if no one buy packs anymore, will be the end of herbs? To buy packs and get 15 tokens and pay 1,5 mil per GOLD is to much. We all know packs will never get under price of 50 silver and will never contain more then 15 tokens and the last hope is to have at NPC or farm other way i dont know yet but I dont pay 2 MIL in game for 100 tokens.
Maybe make them with tokens from NW? (just an idea). Lets say 1 token from NW will create 50 HP herbs or 100 MP. That will be something....0 -
RyuTiger - Raging Tide wrote: »I never said I want free tokens or free HP herbs, i just say let us made them without tokens because I really cant play without herbs and is not fair to dance how people who sell tokens sing.....(A way of speaking)
I just want herbs to come in other way then tokens. What if no one buy packs anymore, will be the end of herbs? To buy packs and get 15 tokens and pay 1,5 mil per GOLD is to much. We all know packs will never get under price of 50 silver and will never contain more then 15 tokens and the last hope is to have at NPC or farm other way i dont know yet but I dont pay 2 MIL in game for 100 tokens.
Maybe make them with tokens from NW? (just an idea). Lets say 1 token from NW will create 50 HP herbs or 100 MP. That will be something....
Ive said it in November on the nw forum debate. One of the reasons that tokens cost so much is because gold cost a lot.
Before nw, gold stabilized at 1.2m at my server. Now its rising to 1.8m. Why is that so? Raps/cans held down a lot of the value of the coin in the game. Kinda like the way the gold standard was in the united states. However, that standard is gone just like the "rap,canny" standard in-game.
The price of gold will continue to rise until there is something in-game that makes coin valuable. Because tokens are a byproduct of gold ingame and the price will continue to rise, until it reaches stable levels. The price of tokens will rise as well.
Get used to having 20k tokens or worse. It will become standard.
P.S. there is another way to get herbs I believe as well and that is through cube. I doubt gold prices will rise to the point that this will become the new standard way of getting them. But hey, I could be wrong.
The problem stems from a messed up economy. That nation war idea, will just make things even worse.
A better idea would be to implement a token reward at the end of an instance. Like full fcc or some sort of instance.0 -
tokens were over 20k at one point years ago when packs were 1 gold each
pw reduced the price of packs to a fraction of that and people bought them again
token supply increased and price went down
history should repeat itself unless pw hates money0 -
Eden - Raging Tide wrote: »tokens were over 20k at one point years ago when packs were 1 gold each
pw reduced the price of packs to a fraction of that and people bought them again
token supply increased and price went down
history should repeat itself unless pw hates money
Well they may or may not do that. I still believe a better solution would be to make a new flux of tokens ingame.
Like revamping the full FCC reward to include a token reward, or make packs drop in nirvana. I dunno stuff like that.0 -
too much work b:surrenderCrazybladema - Harshlands wrote: »Well they may or may not do that. I still believe a better solution would be to make a new flux of tokens ingame.
Like revamping the full FCC reward to include a token reward, or make packs drop in nirvana. I dunno stuff like that.0 -
Eden - Raging Tide wrote: »too much work b:surrender
Yes but this would not only solve the token price problem. It would give people something to farm and earn coin. Which is always a good thing.0 -
It's not that expensive you know...
What was it 9 tokens for 50? That's like 3.6k per pot assuming 20k per token. Whatever activity is making you use pots, just make it worth it.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
yeah token prices are generally directly effected by gold prices, seeing that all the catshops at west on RT atm are buying from 13k-15k and selling at 18k+ they are just taking advantage of people as the buy/sell markup is no where near that. Its usually hardly a 1k markupMarine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
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DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz0
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