Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hahahahahahahaha that's so glorious! You see, it's glorious because while every caster and their mother has been saying to gear up, that's the exact thing they had to do to combat well.. anything. You see, APS ran rampant in PvP due to a combination of poorly skilled and poorly geared players. You had +10 G13/15 claws and daggers hitting +6 gear. When we got R9 though, even at +6 it could tank well enough. At +10 (equal gear) if that Arcane had a proper genie they could combat the aps user more than well enough to win. So much so that aps was no longer overpowered in PvP.

It was always a matter of gearing up, arcanes now have so much ability to take damage that Purify Spell is just not needed. That's the entire point. They have an unneeded weapon proc which, in combination with their defense, becomes rather overpowered in quite a few situations. Why does a whole archetype that, when at equal gear at end game, has large amounts of defense and the highest DPH skills in game need something that allows them to have lucky saves in both group and 1v1 PvP? How is that balanced? "Oh but they needed it 'cause melee stuns too much!" A stunlock takes skill to use, and the melee has to catch up. If they get you in a stunlock and kill you then props to them, they earned that kill. Especially when we have genies that can break those locks. "Oh but in group PvP we die too fast!" Uh.. with 5 people on you? Yeah I should certainly hope so, I don't want to fight a monster that can take 5 equally geared people, come out of it, then blast us for 10 or 20k.

Casters get to make mistakes now. Even if you use that mistake to your advantage *poof* Purify Spell saves the day! It may not happen every time but it happens enough that Casters no longer even really need to know how to play to the fullest to beat a melee that's as or more skilled. Purify Spell will simply save them from time to time and allow for sloppiness.

There is no NEED for Purify Spell to be the way it is. You, Adroit, Azura, every other "end game super duper knowledgable" caster has done nothing to prove a need for it. If anything all that's happened was the need for it has been disproven.

I'm not referring to my personal fights with overgeared people, I'm looking at this from a whole different perspective. Even if I were, how exactly does my fight with a full buffed overgeared SEEKER disprove anything in relation to this thread? You're taking a post I made completely out of context and trying to twist it to suit your needs. What's worse is you're failing horribly at it.

Then dont fight them. Now you dont need to complain about it. b:cute

As for me taking things out of context. i laugh at you. That you have stated yourself in black and white that balanced toons interm's of gear is essential for a fair fight.

This is once again a vain attempt. By you. To defend an indefencible poition.

Purify is here, and it will stay. Adapt and overcome

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1)Hahahahahahahaha that's so glorious! You see, it's glorious because while every caster and their mother has been saying to gear up, that's the exact thing they had to do to combat well.. anything. You see, APS ran rampant in PvP due to a combination of poorly skilled and poorly geared players. You had +10 G13/15 claws and daggers hitting +6 gear. When we got R9 though, even at +6 it could tank well enough. At +10 (equal gear) if that Arcane had a proper genie they could combat the aps user more than well enough to win. So much so that aps was no longer overpowered in PvP.

2)It was always a matter of gearing up, ..... That's the entire point......

1)arcanes geared to win against g13/15 weapons, yet here we have BMs QQing PS nerf because they are outgunned. geez maybe try to gear up b:chuckle

2)best point you've made so far

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here's my argument for Purge, and why archers need it:

Last night a R93 archer hit my cleric for 10k with normal attack...

this is a PvE cleric I use who is not geared up in any shape or form -

2.7k pdef buffed, no def levels.

and the archer with +12 R93, 130 atk lv, and 700+ dex only hits 10k. This is depressing because:

If some robe had 20k pdef, that same archer would hit about 3.3k

If the robe had say, 100 def lv on top of that, that same archer would hit about 1.8k.

So when it comes down to it, archers can crit between 3k-4k on a triple buffed endgame robe. Even though some robes don't have a 3rd buff, you can score maybe 5k-6k crits on an endgame double buffed robe. (clerics for that matter, can pop Plume Shell or add a temporary 3rd buff if they have the chance)

So the point is: endgame defenses has come to the point where archers can't kill anyone without Purge... I can't imagine BMs hitting much harder either, so you might as well let GoF go too.

Don't try to argue about Purify by shifting the point to "why do blah class has blah" because that's stupid. If it was really OP people would be complaining about it left and right for a year or more already, except they haven't.

I don't care if you're pro or con - just talk about Purify and its effects on endgame PvP.

I actually made this point earlier alongside a pair of formulas to actively compare GoF/SBH

The actual ratio of relevant GoF/SBH procs vs a purify activation is 2:1 and 3:1 respectively (rounding here because arcanes do not understand decimal points)

Scroll back and see if you get similar numbers to what I got if ya like. I've been copy pasting it every few pages hoping for anyone to actually come up with a logical argument for purify in this thread. (It also makes "we does need it to live" arguments sound really bloody stupid)

If the ratio is right though then its a pretty closed case on PS opness (hell if its wrong and the chance of getting out is like 50% its still broken as ****)

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I haven't seen a logical argument from you. I have noticed you pull numbers out of thin air several times and call it math, but ofc those can't be used in your "logical" arguments..

*puts formulas in post*

*explains formulas*

*put up results*

I'll give you the super dumbed down version though

Add damage on mele combo skills is almost always static none of our fast combo skills have weapon % and a 1k damage add can be ignored via "not mattering" so we take the average of full +12 axe/dagger damage and see how many times it has to hit in order to kill modified by crit rate (modified by mage def level vs attack level and def stats) and then we take the remaining amount and divide that by average base damage for number of GoF procs needed to kill. Then you just take the total number of attacks any apply purifys proc rate to em (i used max proc rate for GoF and purify)

Furthermore most arcanes still use badge/fort so a full DPS derp spam combo is unlikely at best so instead of just the total number of Gof procs needed to kill total I ran total amount of GoF procs needed to kill in a bm's/Sins longest stun (7.5 seconds for bm 7 for sin) and just compared the % chance of gettign that many procs to purifys chance of procing on all but the last attack.

In both Scenario's Purify came up huge for escaping while saving you geni stam.

I left out HF etc because unless your flat out special your going to badge/immune or damage reduction of choice out of AD. I left out TM/EP because wind shield + self buff counters at a lower energy cost. I left out GS because...lol

SBH wise Its a lot more straightforward nuber of hits needed to proc purge (because nothing with SBH is a legitimate threat to an endgame mage) + nuber of hits after purge needed to kill vs chance of purify activating in that amount of time

You can apply STA to the above if you really want to but its still a ridiculous ratio of purify to purge actually mattering. Same arguement as above for geni skills and BV has a loooong CD.

I worked it out this way because purge is unreliable enough that there is a pretty huge window to gtfo when your not under a control skill thanks to server lag alone and if at any point in time while under the control skill purify activated any purge beforehand would be useless in enough situations that the chance is pretty irrelevant.

I ignored purify vs purify matchups

I ignored barb/seeker in the stun time vs Gof due to pretty trash control skills on those classes. I ignored seeker in base damage version because seekers work a lot more similarly to a caster class than a mele

Scroll back for formulas

On the note of zerk crit high end damage charm bypass, zerk crit alone is an 8% chance with 30% base crit high end damage as well? looooow chance

Pretty much all my arguments are based off of a mixture of logic, math, and hate. I'm sorry but saying "your just pulling numbers out of thin air" is not a valid counterarguement. I also made a rather simple challenge to you a few pages back that you conveniently ignored. Try to prove that purify is OP, if you cannot prove this based on game and class mechanics then grats, purify is balanced. Not go on a tangent or QQ or whatnot thats not proof thats BS. Not make blanket statements or dismiss others because they do not agree with you or based on some pretension of gear = skill. Prove Me Wrong Please. With numbers and formulas and logic that can be recreated with similar results for anyone.

The majority of the purify users are not going to spend 2.2k dollars for josd nor are they likely to have orns above +10. chances are they will have more like 12-16k def and any old acrcher is going to slaughter them very fast with a stun and a quickshot coupled with a purge that generally always happens on my way to death.

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The majority of the purify users are not going to spend 2.2k dollars for josd nor are they likely to have orns above +10. chances are they will have more like 12-16k def and any old acrcher is going to slaughter them very fast with a stun and a quickshot coupled with a purge that generally always happens on my way to death.

God forbid you die to quickshot proc+purge proc early in the buff effect while in a stun without the 28-46% (depending on 5 or 8%) chance of purify going off activating, to a highly refined r999 weapon with under half the def hp and def levels of an endgame mage, and without hitting a geni based survival skill or blinking out of the classes only bloody stun or freeze.

Let me tell you how my heart bleeds for you

Ofc if we're talking under endgame gear here its been commoon practice for a while for pvp obsessed mages to enhance and upgrade armor/ornies/shards over weapon for a good while now.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here's my argument for Purge, and why archers need it:

Last night a R93 archer hit my cleric for 10k with normal attack...

this is a PvE cleric I use who is not geared up in any shape or form -

2.7k pdef buffed, no def levels.

and the archer with +12 R93, 130 atk lv, and 700+ dex only hits 10k. This is depressing because:

If some robe had 20k pdef, that same archer would hit about 3.3k

If the robe had say, 100 def lv on top of that, that same archer would hit about 1.8k.

So when it comes down to it, archers can crit between 3k-4k on a triple buffed endgame robe. Even though some robes don't have a 3rd buff, you can score maybe 5k-6k crits on an endgame double buffed robe. (clerics for that matter, can pop Plume Shell or add a temporary 3rd buff if they have the chance)

So the point is: endgame defenses has come to the point where archers can't kill anyone without Purge... I can't imagine BMs hitting much harder either, so you might as well let GoF go too.

Don't try to argue about Purify by shifting the point to "why do blah class has blah" because that's stupid. If it was really OP people would be complaining about it left and right for a year or more already, except they haven't.

I don't care if you're pro or con - just talk about Purify and its effects on endgame PvP.

LoL, reason why purify here is becayse caster dont have any other benefit to fight against other class. melee class and sin have gof and archer have purge before. and to answer that, caster have purify now. So basically discussing all those proc are very relevant and also other thing like crit, skill etc. If we dont discuss that too, then we dont want to talk about history of the game and fact.

Talking about end game gear w end game shard, ofcourse all the hits will be lower compare than when u hit lower gear. when i fought rank 9 recast archer, and i only have t3 nirvana +7 and 1 other piece is +10 on armor and g14 +10 on ornament. i got 1 shot by archer after they purge me. should i complaint about it?

puri are makes caster able to runaway. But its still random, not all the time. what im surprise is people complaint that its always proc all the time. i will die easy when 5 people against me, but i dont have luck at that time cause weapon not proc.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

LoL, reason why purify here is becayse caster dont have any other benefit to fight against other class. melee class and sin have gof and archer have purge before. and to answer that, caster have purify now. So basically discussing all those proc are very relevant and also other thing like crit, skill etc. If we dont discuss that too, then we dont want to talk about history of the game and fact.

Talking about end game gear w end game shard, ofcourse all the hits will be lower compare than when u hit lower gear. when i fought rank 9 recast archer, and i only have t3 nirvana +7 and 1 other piece is +10 on armor and g14 +10 on ornament. i got 1 shot by archer after they purge me. should i complaint about it?

puri are makes caster able to runaway. But its still random, not all the time. what im surprise is people complaint that its always proc all the time. i will die easy when 5 people against me, but i dont have luck at that time cause weapon not proc.

The whole point of talking about Puri is how it affects endgame. Nobody should talk about how this plays out among people with suck gear because they wouldn't even last long enough for anything to proc. Nobody would think it's even any good until someone comes around who can actually tank hits right? That's why we talk about end game gear with end game shard.

I'm not talking about **** archer hitting 2k on an endgame robe, I posted about the best gear an archer could possibly have...(reasonably...full DoT is not reasonable these days), and analyzed its damage against an endgame robe. I assert that is why Purge is necessary for archers to kill anything.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

The whole point of talking about Puri is how it affects endgame. Nobody should talk about how this plays out among people with suck gear because they wouldn't even last long enough for anything to proc. Let's put it this way: if there is a proc that does 400% damage return on a single hit, essentially a reverse zerk crit, would you notice how powerful it is if you can only take like 2 hits?? Nobody would think it's OP until someone comes around who can actually tank hits right? That's why we talk about end game gear with end game shard.

This would also destroy the power of many.
Many undergeared players (Lets face it, g15 is consideret undergeared already) are very strong and can lock down a single person quiet good and i would say, that they have a really high chance to kill an endgame caster.
The debuffs, amps, purges would be so many, the caster would just die in seconds.

With Puri on the other hand, those undergeared players have no chance in killing the caster, because if thes stun him and start attacking, the chances are pretty high, that purify procs in the first few hits to come and the caster ololol's away and throws some attack at them and they would die, because they are undergeared.
Dont start telling me, that they dont have and chance to come close to one and stun him in the first place, they can stealth, they can port stun, clerics have range sleep and whatnot. But thanks to purify, this will all fade away, when the proc kicks in.


Now maybe someone will say "Uh but they never have a chance and blabla" yes alone, they would die for sure, but when 5-8 are hitting on you, even with little damage like 500 damage, they would kill you. when every person is hitting like 500, then 8 of them would do 4k damage. Its a realistic szenario in NW, saw it plenty of times where some ppl are hitting on one person (mainly on barbs).

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not talking about **** archer hitting 2k on an endgame robe, I posted about the best gear an archer could possibly have...(reasonably...full DoT is not reasonable these days), and analyzed its damage against an endgame robe. I assert that is why Purge is necessary for archers to kill anything.

i stop there, so u are saying archer need purge to able to kill anything even an end game gear caster class, then they are not allow to run away? no one is complaint when puri is in g15 recast rank 8. No one, but when it becomes rank 9 recast with pury, all people complaint b:bye

Euthymius - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Because R8r w/ Purify Spell is common and has 60+ attack level...right?

Isn't GoF and purge with 60 attack level is also overkill?

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

i stop there, so u are saying archer need purge to able to kill anything even an end game gear caster class, then they are not allow to run away? no one is complaint when puri is in g15 recast rank 8. No one, but when it becomes rank 9 recast with pury, all people complaint b:bye

Here's something to think about:

When I was more active in the game, I dealt with casters with a 4th pdef buff on (Shining Pill), and we were all R9 at the time. Could barely break 4 digit with physical hits, how am I supposed to kill that without Purge? Use metal hits? The argument I'm making is that casters are almost impossible to kill fully buffed if archers have no Purge. The caster might as well be AFK and I just tick charm for an hour or so until the buffs run out. That's how bad it would be.

Now YOU, if you want to be stubborn about "if archers have Purge then casters must have Purify" then try to at least make the argument that casters can't fight without Purify. Try to argue that casters can't "run away" without Purify, and provide reasons why. Convince us that casters would just stand there and die if they don't have Purify. Can you make a convincing argument that that is the case?

I'm betting you can't, and that is why you should just let Purge or GoF go. Talk about Purify's balance for Purify's sake. Stop saying "other classes have procs we must have proc too."

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Gave you formulas repeatedly

Plug in numbers

do basic algebra

learn to read above a 3rd grade level

Link me to your "formulas", I've read a majority of this thread and haven't seen any math from you at all.. just this constant insistence that it is there and refusal to say where it is b:chuckle

For the lazy. I must admit I myself don't do math, besides I can already see the situation in which it is arguably overpowered.

Talk about one derailed thread though. XD feels almost as if though its only a matter of time before the mods themselves get fed up with it, and lock this thread down, due to all the derailments.