help with gear options

Looks to me like you're only a few warsong runs away from full G16. I'd not spend too much rerolling G15 weapons. Just upgrade anything you get a mold for until you're done. Meanwhile do cube runs to get a cube necklace after 30 days. No need to put immaculate in that G15 weapon either.

Upgrade your weapon first. You already have decent enough defence to tank end-game pve instances but your your damage output from pangu isn't fit. You would have higher chance of getting into warsong squads if you can efficiently solo defend pavions like earth or water with a proper axe.

Do not waste too much on the weapon rerolls. Don't aim to get the 20 attack lvl or GoF because the chances are really low (1 chance in 50/40 rerolls). Be satisfied with sacrificial strike with any useful defense or offence adds.

There is not much difference in survivability in option 1 (10% increase in Hp for 10% decrease in defence lvl). The only difference is that you will take more damage making it more expensive for hp charm/pot cost.

I would personally just shard everything you already have with flawless citrines (cheap chit) as temporary. Farm as much warsong/lunar as possible until you get any 4 (out of 5) of the remaining molds (+ enough badge) while you are upgrading your weapon from TT99->Stage1->Stage2->Rerolls, then switch the next 4 pieces of armor in one-go for the 15 defensive level set-bonus.

Lastly, keep the weapon G16 upgrade for the end because it will take tons of badge/coins for multi-rerolling.

Look, a buff barb -.-

Honestly, I'd avoid you like the plague. 200+ points in vit sage, out dated rings, and a lvl 80 axe with no damage add-ons. I'd assume a sin's **** can rip aggro from you. Not sure what use you'd be in most squads but I'm sure someone out there is looking for the 2009 version of a barb and maybe you are aspiring to pull a cata.

Anyways, I'd go G16 pants and boots first. Weapons become a huge badge sink as they take 60 to craft and 20 per reroll. Luckily, axes have many acceptable combos of +str, +vit, def, atk, reduce damage, +hp... Still, I think the priority should be boots and thighs because they offer the +% magical defense add which is so valuable to barbs, cost 30 badges to make and 8 to reroll so you should be able to get acceptable pants and refines on quick.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

Saku, in a few posts i advocated using vit for HPs and refining your weapons much higher than your armors because this is more efficient than refining armors for HPs and using str for damage. Im sure you read at least one of those posts where i explained this. You never opposed me in those threads but you do keep judging barbs for statting vit i see

Do you not think it is better to use vit and spend your money on your weapon instead of go max str and spending your money on your armors ? Note that i am not talking about end game barbs where you have a +10 or better refined equipment and the vit points only make the difference of having 35 or 40k HPs. Im talking about these barbs that need to either refine armors or stat vit to get to those 20k HPs that are comfortable for them.

Aiming this directly at you because i read a lot of your posts and learned much from you. So i wonder why you seem to think so differently on this matter

I understand that obviously refining 1 weapon is much cheaper than refining 6 pieces of armor. On the flip side of that you have 6 opportunities to refine armor for more hp but very few opportunities to increase you damage and aggro. Similarly, everything we shard is going to increase survivability except for Dots and things like vit stones are going to give proportionally more survivability than a DoT. So, plenty of growth gear wise for survivability which is why I reserve stats for growth attack and aggrowise.

We are also starting the discussion in the other thread about vit as a multiplier. Simply put, its a horrible multiplier. It gives great hp, especially for barbs, but it doesn't do much for our defenses. Strength is a better pdef multiplier and will not only increase our killing speed (taking less damage) but about 90% of the attacks we take are physical, especially as soon as we get into a melee range which we always try to do. Strength increases pdef more than vit so even though we don't have as much hp we usually end up with similar survivability against physical attacks.

Just throw this out there; More stength=more damage=bigger paint heals.

Barbs get slated into thinking more hp = better tank. Really, nothing in this game needs more than 14k hp and a bit of skill to tank. More hp is always nice but so is balance and having some killing speed, and when that extra hp means you don't have enough damage to effect aggro you're not really a tank.

In all honesty I probably go more in the opposing view than I should. All these barbs are so vit crazy and then what do we here? They're just buff hoars and no one wants them in squad. I kind of went overboard in the opposite to balance out the opinions, to push back a little.

Also, at endgame with +10 and vit stones, 200 vit will be about 10-15% of your hp. Not much. In otherwords once you get decent refines vit wont matter much.

So I have a +5-10 aps barb, with flawless citrines mostly, and 3 base vit. I have 21k hp. Endgame I'm looking at about 34k hp. I need 14k to pull a delta, 15k to tank a 3-3 in tiger form. In human form apsing I could tank it with 9k. So I'm almost double the hp I "need" to do everything in game, and by +10 gear and endgame shards I'll have triple the hp I need. In PvE who do you think it going to tank the metal boss? The 7k hp sin, or the 30k hp vit barb? So what use is the 23k hp difference at that point?

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

So spend your money on your weapon ! And get HPs from your VIT stat. If your weapon is already +12 and so you have to invest in refining armors anyway is the time to restat that vit to STR. Of course i agree that 35 vs 30k HP is not worth having any vit. It would be rediculous to stat vit at that point. 20k HP in tiger instead of 15k HP is however something i can very much understand, And thats what some vit can do combined with for example a +10 weapon and +5 armors. This provides more damage, more hitpoints and costs less coins than full str with +7 weapon and +7 armors.

And about the tanking. We both seem to agree that it is a good idea to go APS on a barb. That will enable us not only to solo, but also to put out the DPS to tank. I wonder though how it is for the non-APS barb. What chance do they have to ever hold agro against a sin anyway ? I dont imagine they are gonna be holding agro from that 5aps G16 weapon +7 to +10 sin either even if they have full str. So in that case is it not usefull to just go for high vit to make pulling more comfortable and maximize that HF-Sunder-Arma nuke ?

Maybe your theory of +10 weap and +5 armors is correct, but a barb tends to go for hp first and damage comes later b:pleased. Maybe a few ppl know i'm a DD barb, but I also have an unknown sage barb with 29k hp & +0 weapon XD

And why do u think an aps barb can hold aggro from sins where non aps barbs cant, so far i know a sin is still stealing aggro easily with equal gears b:chuckle

Haila - Sanctuary wrote: »

And why do u think an aps barb can hold aggro from sins where non aps barbs cant, so far i know a sin is still stealing aggro easily with equal gears b:chuckle

With G16 the difference between daggers and claws became significantly closer. I'm +10 G16 and I believe you're +12. I can hold aggro from any sins who are not +8 G16, or r9t3+7, which is still like 90% of the sin population. The idea is being better geared than the sin in your squad to the point that the only sins that can pull aggro from you should be able to solo about anything out there.

As for non-aps barbs, I'm not talking pulling and keeping. I'm talking of having a FR spam point for a few second to give the sin some relief when the barb frenzies or the sin gets stunned. Some barbs generate so little aggro FR doesn't even effect the boss. Same thing when I pulled a group of 300k hp mobs, roar, sunder, surf. Hopefully I've generated enough aggro to keep mobs till they're all dead. It doesn't matter if I have 50k hp if when I pull I can't keep aggro and every DD who attacks dies.

I guess I'm talking degrees of aggro. 100 vit vs 100 str, aggro weighs slightly in favor of the 100 strength.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

When you say the sin can have no more than +8 vs your +10 weapon, does that factor in using stomp at the start of the battle ? and demon onslaught and blood rush ? Will all those things not allow us to keep agro from at least an equally refined sin ? b:surrender

About how long does stomp keep agro on a lvl 150 boss if you do absolutely nothing after casting it when there is no HF in the game ?(should be about 6 seconds if those 300k are to be about right)

My barb is currently being slightly neglected and I don't have Stomp of the King, but from others using it's 10 seconds in a weak squad, 2 seconds in a strong squad with debuffs

For me personally, I want to get in, devour (aggro skill+debuff) and triple spark to catch the amps and HFs at the start. Unfortunately taking 3 seconds to channel+ cast Stomp means I'm gonna miss the debuffs at the start of the boss, and 3 seconds of HF+pdef debuff+EP with aps is usually more important than Stomp. A boss going down in a couple seconds is the best way for a squad to survive. If the sin takes time to Focused Mind and Rib Strike at the start that gives me a significant dps lead, and even better if the BM helps by HFing my spark instead of the sins (or I adjust my own spark timing to the BM) that also insures aggro gets glued.

I haven't noticed much help from Blood Rush except in pulls. Bosses attack slow, about once every 1.5 seconds then do a double attack on their 5th attack. Also, with 200 dex they tend to miss occasionaly. Lastly, with a permanent triple spark for 500% weapon, 450 strength for 300% weapon damage, and master for 75% damage thats 875% weapon damage + rings and other damage add ons. If the boss dies in 10-20 seconds the Blood Rush bonus isn't noticably different. I still wouldn't neglect it.

I don't demon Onslaught. I have around 30% crit rate on my barb so going to 65% crit is a 27% dps increase for 6 seconds. but you give up 8 attacks to do it. Too lazy to do the math on this but its roughly a push. I think Onslaught might be a tiny bonus but not enough to care. Instead I use demon Titans at the start (5% crit bonus for all) and I use demon Penetrate Armor (if no cleric/veno are debuffing) after each spark for about a 27% boost to myself and the entire squad. Neither of these specifically help me keep aggro but things go down too fast to care who has aggro. Even many WBs can be killed in 2-3 sparks with the right squad setup and people knowing how to work together.

XooFIREoox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Stomp of the king has a 20 sec cd. In non aps barb defense, I can out aggro netherworld guidance, but not adversity.

And how much of your agro generation would you say comes from stomp of the king ?
Because if indeed as said it would generate something like 300k worth of agro, that would mean it generates 15k per second @ 20s cooldown.

Ream generates 20k on top of weapon damage so that is ~7k per second.

besides that, a non APS barb would probably generate some 4k-6k* per second from damage on a lvl 150 boss.

Add the little bit from the less frequent casted devour and you'd get just short of 30k per second. Enough to hold agro from a 120k DPS DDer on a lvl 150 boss. A bit more maybe since your devour doesnt take away all the armor so his damage is reduced a bit more than the factor 4. This would be a 500 dex, 36% crit sin with +8 netherworld guidance and 30attack levels from his blessing but no other attack levels. Meaning you should be able to hold agro up to +7, but no more against +8. Of course thats give or take a level for different builds crit chances etc on both you and the sin. And most importantly it is excluding HF. When there is a BM HFing, you should bot be able to hold agro against any 5aps G15 sin. In these cases however, you could of course retake agro after the HF with ream and then stomp to hold it until after the next HF.

Do you feel that those numbers are about correct and more than half your agro comes from stomp ? (just 16 more days before i go home to complete my tests, but now im asking because i didnt have stomp yet and im just excited to know if it really creates such a godly amount of agro. I almost cant believe it )

* This example calculation shows that since only about 15-20% of the generated agro comes from damage, a str build cannot be all that huge of a difference for holding agro as many of the str defenders dex/vit bashers claim. Meaning a non str build could be no more than about 7% behind on total agro generation. (thats a 200 str difference) It can at best make a difference of 1 refinement level on the sins weapon that you can hold agro with.

I asumed he was talking G15 netherwold guidance.
G16 would be impossible to consistently hold agro i think. Also, initially i was going to ask at what refines for each weapon since how can you say you can hold agro against one weapon but not another without stating refine levels ? then i realised the difference between a G15 without attack levels and a G16 with attack levels is big enough that refines dont make the difference, so for that reason also i assume he is talking about a G15 weapon.

I actually said 7% more agro from a str build MAX.
Its 15-20% of your agro that comes from your damage. Since a non-str build does about 2/3 of the damage of an STR build, they would only have about 13% there where the str build has 20%. Note that this is vs single target lvl 150 bosses. In big pulls against non lvl 150 mobs, most of your agro comes from the damage you do with skills like surf and sunder. I havent had the opportunity yet to use SOTK, but i assume because it is not real AOE and has a long cast time, you will only use it when you feel its really needed and skip it whevere you can get away with it. In this case the str will hugely effect the agro you create. For a demon i assume you will be using sunder first and probably often not even get to casting armageddon. A sage build maybe would prefer to cast armageddon instead of sunder and thus a vit build might gain a little there, but im not going to theorycraft into that as there are too many factors in play.

If your boss lasts less than 23 seconds it is less than that because sotk effect is bigger as you get the same amount for a shorter time since i assume casting sotk is the first thing you do if you want to consistently hold agro (only if you know you cant because debufs are used, you probably save it until after the Debuffs are used). I am however looking at these cases where it takes longer because we are talking about the non-aps build holding agro here. That wont happen in those good DD (and HF) cases you talk about. Defence debufs from mire/devour are taken into my calculations as i mostly ignore boss defence.

Sorry bout the short post. My wife and I did some simple aggro tests. I'll explain later. I'm dealing with some medical issues this morning.

Barbarz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Look, an a$$hole -.-

Honestly, I'd avoid trashtalking when people ask for advices.
is the build optimal? nah not even close.

Advice was asked, advice was given. Advice =/= trash talk, even if you don't like it. If you were only looking for what you wanted to hear why bother asking others? Whether you can learn from advice is up to you.

See guys, the argument totally tips in my favor when Yulk agrees with you.

Ppl should learn not to ofend ppl cause of theyre gear and builds =P its all about skill ....

im a pure vit barb .. as in .. i have 223 str 54 dex and 3 mag and rest all in vit .... full g16 including weap ... and i bet most squads cant complain bout my pulls/tankin ... most agro even comes from my arma .. and where does the damage come? oh right .. hp !

Only problem with that barbs gear is it still lacks refines.. but even with sucky weap..if he spams flesh on bosses, and uses as much aoe as he can on mobs..he can do good ...

oh and as for "even a sin **** can take agro" when a sin can afor a good weap ..he can sure aford some good armor to be able to hold hits for at least 2 secs before barbs takes agro again ijs ! dont blame the barbs when u die unless the barb really is a nuub .. cause other then that ...any purevit/pure str/hybrid barb can tank good.. and the person who died is the nuub ...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for aggro, I remember a vit barb spamming Flesh Ream while I auto attacked with axes. He was designated tank because he had more hp, but I kept getting aggro even though I was using no skills and he was spamming. It does make a difference.

you have an APS build and even with axe attack twice as fast as he does ? Thats actually quite interesting in defence of the APS build, never thought of that before, but it should indeed produce more agro than a non APS build reaming

A vit barb not armaing is an idiot. With BP and enough mobs it actually heals you anyway. I currently have vit statted because i am a poorly equiped barb and i think 20k HP tiger, 16k standing is not too much of a luxury and i try to make up for the damage in weapon refines. But if i were to stat vit and end up with more HP than that armageddon would be pretty much the reason to do so.

I kind of envision myself how it the situation might have been though

"WTF i dont get to be tank ? They want this noob to be tank instead of me !" ... "Ill show them ! Let me put away those claws and dig up that axe to show the noobs what idiots they are !"

b:chuckle I'd do the same probably