Pick a proc for caster weapons: Purify, GoF, Spirit Blackhole...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · May 2013

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a note: Infinite would be an extremely viable proc for robes.

I thought of suggesting Infinite proc. Its useful during stuns without being broken. Good balance, imo. But I thought this:

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

Infinite is an absolute C-R-A-P proc. With most endgame RRR9 casters being 12k HP+, 2.1K HP while being attacked is not much at all. Nor is +50 MP.

would be the reaction by any caster who wanted OPness without skill or balance. No need to learn to break a stunlock or use genie/apos "just for surviving."

~~~

I made another thread pointing out casters get 100 magic per damage multiplier while every other class has 150 dex or 150 str per multiplier is already broken. Especially considering that a ton of crit exists in endgame gear, not stats, and casters have 100% accuracy. They also have higher static adds on their skills than melee classes already, like +4000 damage, or +200% weapon damage.

I would be okay with casters getting a GoF proc if this game mechanic was fixed and they got the same multiplier adds as everyone else. They can keep the increased skill damage because that's tied in with casting time. A chance to miss magic attacks would be nice if they added zerks in, too.

Arctix - Dreamweaver · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

I was only going off pwdatabase so excuse me.
But even then, that doesn't make really any difference to the proc at all.

Its 50 chi actually and with how the proc rate is increased for r9r3 u would see more ulties n triple sparks lol

I wanna see the day when casters trip spark more than sins viably in pk and the good old sage bids k.o

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur · May 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I thought of suggesting Infinite proc. Its useful during stuns without being broken. Good balance, imo. But I thought this:

would be the reaction by any caster who wanted OPness without skill or balance. No need to learn to break a stunlock or use genie/apos "just for surviving."

~~~

I made another thread pointing out casters get 100 magic per damage multiplier while every other class has 150 dex or 150 str per multiplier is already broken. Especially considering that a ton of crit exists in endgame gear, not stats, and casters have 100% accuracy. They also have higher static adds on their skills than melee classes already, like +4000 damage, or +200% weapon damage.

I would be okay with casters getting a GoF proc if this game mechanic was fixed and they got the same multiplier adds as everyone else. They can keep the increased skill damage because that's tied in with casting time. A chance to miss magic attacks would be nice if they added zerks in, too.

Thought I may add in I'm not RRR9 nor am I planning to do so in the near future, I'm actually full G16. You of course would be ok with GoF proc since BM and classes that wield the proc can hit much faster than casters can thus GoF being much more useful. The point of magic damage is for it not to miss because we don't hit fast but since melee hit so much faster than casters it is just logical for them to be able to miss; evening out the playing fields.

Arctix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Its 50 chi actually and with how the proc rate is increased for r9r3 u would see more ulties n triple sparks lol

I wanna see the day when casters trip spark more than sins viably in pk and the good old sage bids k.o

We have stuns/psy will and other skills that require chi more than a spark does, sparks aren't terribly useful as it only decreases damage taken which can be easily overcome and increases your damage which is useless compared to being able to tide spirit, stun, hit until unstunned then psy will.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

Thought I may add in I'm not RRR9 nor am I planning to do so in the near future, I'm actually full G16. You of course would be ok with GoF proc since BM and classes that wield the proc can hit much faster than casters can thus GoF being much more useful. The point of magic damage is for it not to miss because we don't hit fast but since melee hit so much faster than casters it is just logical for them to be able to miss; evening out the playing fields.

Again I'd be fine with all proc removal if purify went away

mele skills hit as slow or slower than arcane skills have lower damage adds and come from lower base damage with a chance of missing

TL;DR mele zerk crit = caster crit

PS: Mele range is a huge drawback in of itself on any skill

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur · May 2013

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Again I'd be fine with all proc removal if purify went away

mele skills hit as slow or slower than arcane skills have lower damage adds and come from lower base damage with a chance of missing

TL;DR mele zerk crit = caster crit

Ever noticed 90% of these opinions come from people who aren't/don't play casters?
I'd be fine if purify just went down to anti-stun seeming I don't even use purify.
Melee skills for the most actually hit F-A-S-T-E-R than caster skills depending on which class you're talking about, melee also have very acceptable damage from using their bare weapon and no skills attached where as a caster does not.
Now you're comparing a melee zerk crit to a caster crit?
I'm sitting on about 9% crit atm and that's pretty average for a caster, melee have MUCH higher crit rates than casters do so it's only fair.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

Ever noticed 90% of these opinions come from people who aren't/don't play casters?
I'd be fine if purify just went down to anti-stun seeming I don't even use purify.
Melee skills for the most actually hit F-A-S-T-E-R than caster skills depending on which class you're talking about, melee also have very acceptable damage from using their bare weapon and no skills attached where as a caster does not.
Now you're comparing a melee zerk crit to a caster crit?
I'm sitting on about 9% crit atm and that's pretty average for a caster, melee have MUCH higher crit rates than casters do so it's only fair.

I play wiz/cleric/veno/bm/barb/sin/archer

Nobody autoattacks with any weapon but fist/dag because well, it sucks and uh...in the case of most mele weapons they hit slow as ****

30% crit x 20-25% GOF = less than 8%, most endgame mages are at roughly (+/- w/e) 20% crit

So hitting less than casters 50% of the time, missing, hitting even 40ish% and havign caster level crits 8%. At mele range. I cannot stress enough how bad the range of "mele" is

Grats sunshine you can no maths

Uyrnaz - Heavens Tear · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

Ever noticed 90% of these opinions come from people who aren't/don't play casters?
I'd be fine if purify just went down to anti-stun seeming I don't even use purify.
Melee skills for the most actually hit F-A-S-T-E-R than caster skills depending on which class you're talking about, melee also have very acceptable damage from using their bare weapon and no skills attached where as a caster does not.
Now you're comparing a melee zerk crit to a caster crit?
I'm sitting on about 9% crit atm and that's pretty average for a caster, melee have MUCH higher crit rates than casters do so it's only fair.

Okay, I don't care if this extends my sentence or whatever, but this is just incredibly stupid.

Melee may have skills that channel faster, but what you fail to take into account is melee has to get in range. IN. RANGE. Casters can blast melee from 30 meters away while the melee has to take it until it's in range, and by the time that happens the caster has options to keep distance. It takes effort to get to a caster while they're blasting skills at you that are 40-80% slows. Just sayin'

Of course he compares melee zerk crit to a caster crit, that's pretty accurate. 4x melee damage = 2x caster damage, how is that an unfair comparison when it's true? The chance for a zerk crit is, and my memory is rusty on this, roughly the same or a bit less than 9%. By the way, end game casters have upwards of 15% crit rate.

Tell me which sounds more deadly, high damage skills that = 2x normal melee damage from long range that never miss, or fast channeling skills that you have to be in melee range to use and can miss?

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2013

Sparks aren't terribly useful...then WHAT IS????

If you can't out last an opponent in chi then you've lost. That goes for most fights with equal geared people.

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur · May 2013

Uyrnaz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay, I don't care if this extends my sentence or whatever, but this is just incredibly stupid.

Melee may have skills that channel faster, but what you fail to take into account is melee has to get in range. IN. RANGE. Casters can blast melee from 30 meters away while the melee has to take it until it's in range, and by the time that happens the caster has options to keep distance. It takes effort to get to a caster while they're blasting skills at you that are 40-80% slows. Just sayin'

Of course he compares melee zerk crit to a caster crit, that's pretty accurate. 4x melee damage = 2x caster damage, how is that an unfair comparison when it's true? The chance for a zerk crit is, and my memory is rusty on this, roughly the same or a bit less than 9%. By the way, end game casters have upwards of 15% crit rate.

Tell me which sounds more deadly, high damage skills that = 2x normal melee damage from long range that never miss, or fast channeling skills that you have to be in melee range to use and can miss?

It is not incredibly stupid at all. On my server BM's and other Melee FACEROLL casters most of the time, melee have in most cases more movement debuffs and antistuns than casters. Casters are much more squishy to melee damage than melee to magic damage aswell, too.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sparks aren't terribly useful...then WHAT IS????

If you can't out last an opponent in chi then you've lost. That goes for most fights with equal geared people.

I was meaning sparking, sparking can be incredibly useful, if you use it at the right time.

Uyrnaz - Heavens Tear · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

It is not incredibly stupid at all. On my server BM's and other Melee FACEROLL casters most of the time, melee have in most cases more movement debuffs and antistuns than casters. Casters are much more squishy to melee damage than melee to magic damage aswell, too.

Ever consider that those casters may very well suck? A melee can be facerolled when outskilled as well. Gear differences could also be a factor. As it stands that statement is far too general with a lot of variables to be taken seriously as an example of anything. Once you get to R9r3 Casters aren't facerolls, at least not at somewhat equal gear. They hit hard enough that they can force defensive options and have Purify Spell. If a caster is getting facerolled at equal gear then they should just uninstall.

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur · May 2013

Uyrnaz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ever consider that those casters may very well suck? A melee can be facerolled when outskilled as well. Gear differences could also be a factor. As it stands that statement is far too general with a lot of variables to be taken seriously as an example of anything. Once you get to R9r3 Casters aren't facerolls, at least not at somewhat equal gear. They hit hard enough that they can force defensive options and have Purify Spell. If a caster is getting facerolled at equal gear then they should just uninstall.

I play on a variety of servers, the casters on Archo definitely do not suck, well most of the RRR9 anyway.

Decus - Dreamweaver · May 2013

Pfft. I said Infinite before Q... What is this?

<

Jarkhen - Archosaur · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

I play on a variety of servers, the casters on Archo definitely do not suck, well most of the RRR9 anyway.

As a certified noob with only +7 armor, I can assure you that almost every caster on Archosaur sucks. Including those that PK.

There are three or four exceptions to this, but I have never seen them get facerolled by any melee class, including those with equal gear.

trufflles · May 2013

Purify Spell: Has a chance to remove debuff when being attacked,and immune to stun and slow, lasts for 5 seconds, and has a chance to recover 2,100 HP in 9 seconds, while increasing Chi by 10 points.f:meh

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · May 2013

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »

Thought I may add in I'm not RRR9 nor am I planning to do so in the near future, I'm actually full G16. You of course would be ok with GoF proc since BM and classes that wield the proc can hit much faster than casters can thus GoF being much more useful. The point of magic damage is for it not to miss because we don't hit fast but since melee hit so much faster than casters it is just logical for them to be able to miss; evening out the playing fields.

I play everything. Favorite class is BM. Second is cleric. Third is Barb. After that its a mix of seeker, veno, mystic, archer, sin, wizard. I keep trying to get into psychic because it seems more intricate at endgame than most classes but so far he's only level 82 and I'd really like to set time apart and focus once I do get into playing him, and that just hasn't happened yet. Admitedly, in almost every pvp I play melee classes. That has nothing to do with OP or gear or anthing, I just prefer to be in the action rather than kiting from a distance. If I'm not being hit I'm not "playing". BM is my favorite class to pvp with because of its intricacy and skill versatility, still, I'm pretty impartial as to what class should benefit and what should be nerfed because I'm just LF balance.

As to your point that "melee's attack faster thus GoF"... uhm, no one is auto attacking in PvP. Both are skill spamming. BMs and psychics have comparable skill cast times. Sins have longer skill cast times, similar to clerics and venos. The difference is we can miss and our skills do less damage for a variet of reasons.

trands · May 2013

I don't see how another proc would really work.

Any proc activating on being hit would get the same QQ
A proc activating upon attacking would be either result in some never activating uselesness with a to low proc rate for a slow attacker like a caster, or become horribly OP it it procs as often as GoF

Purify proc came out to counter the excessive dps that could be achieved with auto-attacks. Funnily, all that "math" in 2 years archer/bm/sin forums have been forgotten. With just genie to counter, it's very easy to keep a caster immobile. I don't don't know any proc to counter that aspect without triggering the massive QQ we have now. If it's for balance sake, my best suggestion would be to make all defensive procs on melee weapons also trigger on being hit ... But well, r999 all have GoF or Purge so wouldn't change much.

So, I rather keep it as it is. I don't see much better alternatives. I'd accept some little tweaks on it if it stops that other thread from increasing, but I don't see a decent replacement alternative. Purge on barrage and GoF on gemini or arma are also freaking OP. Just let purify proc be the idiot-lowbee counter in NW already. Most of the lower geared have already learned how to deal with 1 OP caster on a NW map anyway.

Joe - Morai · May 2013

Nah don't switch to another proc. That would be useless. Just skip the procs on Magic weapons for the next gear upgrade (r9.4 or r10?). Instead give casters additional channeling and crit, or magic attack.

If you wanna do something balancing about Purify then remove the speed buff from it and give it a Cooldown of about 10 to 15 seconds. That will do all the balancing needed. But since the devs in China are going to undertake this change if ever, we gotta wait a long long time for it to be released.

Altering Purify would on the other hand increase the weapon versatility overall. Because warsoul weaps wouldn't be that bad anymore and would be indeed compareable.

All together, skip Puri and give them cahnnel or crit instead or remove the speed buff from Puri and give it a Cooldown time. That pretty much fixes everything.

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver · May 2013

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Casters had MUCH lower gear req and better returns ijs...

and yea back in those days for the price of a fully decked out sin/BM you can make a caster just as good for casters

i dont remember casters with tt99 and nirv weapon pwning. casters always needed better gears because their base def sux

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur · May 2013

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i dont remember casters with tt99 and nirv weapon pwning. casters always needed better gears because their base def sux

Thank you.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary · May 2013

ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i dont remember casters with tt99 and nirv weapon pwning. casters always needed better gears because their base def sux

They stilll did just fine against opponents with TT99 or Nirvana armor, killing many before they could reach them.

Safety Zone pk isn't a new thing, its been around for years since many casters can take 1 step, kill someone in 1-3 hits, then walk back into safety zone. All that's changed now is their weapon now offers them amazing kiting ability to match safety zoning.

Joe - Morai · May 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

They stilll did just fine against opponents with TT99 or Nirvana armor, killing many before they could reach them.

Safety Zone pk isn't a new thing, its been around for years since many casters can take 1 step, kill someone in 1-3 hits, then walk back into safety zone. All that's changed now is their weapon now offers them amazing kiting ability to match safety zoning.

We should have just simple 1on1 PvP events to eliminate all this nubness once and for all time. Safety Zoning? Those guys should have unistalled long time ago, same goes for gankers.

We really should have more compareable and competitive PvP like this Server-wide Championship was, just with different modi...1on1 2on2 3on3 5on5 and so on. That would make this game way more attractive and you could leave Purify as it is.

Best would be using smaller areanas so all this kiting nonesense would stop beforehand (: And ofc everyone gets fixed equal gears beforehand.

That would solve all nubness PvP problems and would turn PWI into something very attractive for ladder loving ppl and stuff =P

Rhahiki - Lothranis · May 2013

Joe - Morai wrote: »

We should have just simple 1on1 PvP events to eliminate all this nubness once and for all time. Safety Zoning? Those guys should have unistalled long time ago, same goes for gankers.

We really should have more compareable and competitive PvP like this Server-wide Championship was, just with different modi...1on1 2on2 3on3 5on5 and so on. That would make this game way more attractive and you could leave Purify as it is.

Best would be using smaller areanas so all this kiting nonesense would stop beforehand (: And ofc everyone gets fixed equal gears beforehand.

That would solve all nubness PvP problems and would turn PWI into something very attractive for ladder loving ppl and stuff =P

I doubt that would solve all the problems. PvP simply attracts a$$holes and idiots that just look for whatever methode to win. You won't change the mentality of that small group that ruins the fun for others. This is the main reason I will never roll a PvP server and never go in pk mode. But I do agree more options for PvP based events would be nice (I actually do enjoy PvP when it's with the right ppl). First thing to do imo would be to disable pk when the gap between soulforce is to big in open world pk.

It's a bit off-topic, but I doubt it would stop the QQ around purify proc.

Darren_Kris - Morai · May 2013

this thread shows usefulness of infinite proc
http://http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1552451

Desdi - Sanctuary · May 2013

It may be just me but I'd rather have a defensive proc on my weapon as a caster so I'd still favour Purify however not the way it is now. I don't have it myself but I understand how it is quite broken endgame in combination of R9 recast gear, high refines and high level shards.

I've been suggesting over and over in the other purify proc related thread that they could simply remove the speed buff and, maybe, the anti-stun.
Let Purify be what exactly the name implies...a purify. It will give you the ability to pop a pot or use some defensive skill when you break the stunlocking. I'm in no position to judge whether the anti-stun part of the proc is necessary or not but the speed definitely needs to go.

Someone has suggested adding a passive cooldown on the proc which is not a bad idea; it should balance things out in group PvP so people wouldn't be running into the problem of the Purify procing way too much from being hit by too many players.

As for the other procs, I'm not sure...things like GoF and Spirit Blackhole would be a pretty bad idea too. Casters already hit hard enough as it is and Spirit Blackhole would be a big no no in my book for two reasons; people won't need Venomancers as much if they have a bunch of casters in their squad and secondly...like I said..endgame casters hit hard enough. If a Wizard or a Psychic get their own purge there would be just as much QQ going on.

The other procs don't sound interesting to me..maybe because I just favour Purify mostly (and like I said a nerfed Purify, as much as I like it, I can't say that I support the broken Purify we have right now).

Crazybladema - Harshlands · May 2013

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

It may be just me but I'd rather have a defensive proc on my weapon as a caster so I'd still favour Purify however not the way it is now. I don't have it myself but I understand how it is quite broken endgame in combination of R9 recast gear, high refines and high level shards.

I've been suggesting over and over in the other purify proc related thread that they could simply remove the speed buff and, maybe, the anti-stun.
Let Purify be what exactly the name implies...a purify. It will give you the ability to pop a pot or use some defensive skill when you break the stunlocking. I'm in no position to judge whether the anti-stun part of the proc is necessary or not but the speed definitely needs to go.

Someone has suggested adding a passive cooldown on the proc which is not a bad idea; it should balance things out in group PvP so people wouldn't be running into the problem of the Purify procing way too much from being hit by too many players.

As for the other procs, I'm not sure...things like GoF and Spirit Blackhole would be a pretty bad idea too. Casters already hit hard enough as it is and Spirit Blackhole would be a big no no in my book for two reasons; people won't need Venomancers as much if they have a bunch of casters in their squad and secondly...like I said..endgame casters hit hard enough. If a Wizard or a Psychic get their own purge there would be just as much QQ going on.

The other procs don't sound interesting to me..maybe because I just favour Purify mostly (and like I said a nerfed Purify, as much as I like it, I can't say that I support the broken Purify we have right now).

Finally I can agree with you. +1

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · May 2013

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Dead forums are dead and I like PWI discussion, so without further adieu:

The thread: Remove Purify Proc Proc Y/N. We had it Coming is over 1300 posts long with about half the people thinking Purify proc should be removed or altered. There are tons of suggestions for ways to alter it, many are NW specific like the holy path effect not taking effect while carrying a flag.

I thought I'd make a thread about what proc we think would be the most balanced for casters to have and start a discussion from there.

Purify: It's not secret casters lack antistun skills and most melees can rip them apart once they get inside, the trick becomes kiting. Enter the worlds best kiting skill with permanent holy path and permanent antistun. They're still squisher (sort of?) but now they can't be locked down

GoF: The glass cannon ability of casters is based on the idea that their 32m+ range will kill you before you ever reach them. Longer casting time on skills means greater dph instead of dps. and greater finishing ability.

Spirit Blackhole: Its no GoF in terms of dph, but once purged every attack following will hit harder. It also works as a support skill for squadmates. Also, removing opponent damage buffs would assist in caster survivability.

Other already existing procs
Faith: Recovers hp and increases defenses. Obvious uses.
Shield of Chi: The Pan Gu's Giant Axe buff would absorb a % of damage for a time period, procs upon being hit. Similar to purify proc it responds based on being hit, not attacking
Darken: Has a chance to freeze and seal your enemies. If kiting is what casters needed this should help.

Or create your own proc or modify Purify proc (ie Purify can only proc once every 15 seconds, or Purify no longer increases run speed but gives a temporary mana shield).

The goal is not to argue whether purify proc should be removed. I find myself thinking "well, Spirit Blackhole on a caster would suck. And they already hit barbs for 30k so GoF would suck. There really is no r9t3 proc I'd rather them have." So I thought a discussion on alternatives to balance the class would be fun.

51% for 49% against sounds pretty balanced to me.

Mods should close this thread. we already have a big QQ purify thread.

Azura - Lost City · May 2013

If I could change my purify prok, I would want something that reflects 300% of any kind of damage for 10 seconds, without cooldown and refreshable. Or each time I got a prok, a post qqing about purify would get erased.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · May 2013

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

51% for 49% against sounds pretty balanced to me.

Mods should close this thread. we already have a big QQ purify thread.

hey, give melees a chance to QQb:chuckle
all this time we had aps QQ threads by casters that said that they cant enjoy pve and melees said "lol roll sin/bm lol casters are for pvp only"

karma is a ***** b:cute

JoeBlack - Harshlands · May 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

If I could change my purify prok, I would want something that reflects 300% of any kind of damage for 10 seconds, without cooldown and refreshable. Or each time I got a prok, a post qqing about purify would get erased.

I laughed so much with this red quote, just show how greedy casters want to be most OPed without any using skills/apothes b:surrenderb:chuckle

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver · May 2013

JoeBlack - Harshlands wrote: »

I laughed so much with this red quote, just show how greedy casters want to be most OPed without any using skills/apothes b:surrenderb:chuckle

said the stealth spark stun aps sin b:avoid

Pick a proc for caster weapons: Purify, GoF, Spirit Blackhole...

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