Pick a proc for caster weapons: Purify, GoF, Spirit Blackhole...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary
Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
edited May 2013 in General Discussion
Dead forums are dead and I like PWI discussion, so without further adieu:

The thread: Remove Purify Proc Proc Y/N. We had it Coming is over 1300 posts long with about half the people thinking Purify proc should be removed or altered. There are tons of suggestions for ways to alter it, many are NW specific like the holy path effect not taking effect while carrying a flag.

I thought I'd make a thread about what proc we think would be the most balanced for casters to have and start a discussion from there.

Purify: It's not secret casters lack antistun skills and most melees can rip them apart once they get inside, the trick becomes kiting. Enter the worlds best kiting skill with permanent holy path and permanent antistun. They're still squisher (sort of?) but now they can't be locked down

GoF: The glass cannon ability of casters is based on the idea that their 32m+ range will kill you before you ever reach them. Longer casting time on skills means greater dph instead of dps. and greater finishing ability.

Spirit Blackhole: Its no GoF in terms of dph, but once purged every attack following will hit harder. It also works as a support skill for squadmates. Also, removing opponent damage buffs would assist in caster survivability.

Other already existing procs
Faith: Recovers hp and increases defenses. Obvious uses.
Shield of Chi: The Pan Gu's Giant Axe buff would absorb a % of damage for a time period, procs upon being hit. Similar to purify proc it responds based on being hit, not attacking
Darken: Has a chance to freeze and seal your enemies. If kiting is what casters needed this should help.

Or create your own proc or modify Purify proc (ie Purify can only proc once every 15 seconds, or Purify no longer increases run speed but gives a temporary mana shield).

The goal is not to argue whether purify proc should be removed. I find myself thinking "well, Spirit Blackhole on a caster would suck. And they already hit barbs for 30k so GoF would suck. There really is no r9t3 proc I'd rather them have." So I thought a discussion on alternatives to balance the class would be fun.
Post edited by Sakubatou - Sanctuary on
Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
«13

Comments

  • Crazybladema - Harshlands
    Crazybladema - Harshlands Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I think actually the proc "DISTRACT" should be added here too. It lowers mage defense which would be useful for a mage.

    Which would have been a nice bonus to introduce and would be a nice replacement to purify.

    Also considering that the other two r9 procs are purely offensive. I think it fit right in.
  • JoeBlack - Harshlands
    JoeBlack - Harshlands Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    For sure I will choose GOF and with full set R9 r3+12 (JODS/Half vit+JODS or att lvl) ( 25% crit) , there will be more complain threads appearing b:bye b:surrender
  • Euthymius - Heavens Tear
    Euthymius - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,162 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    These alternative triggers (save GoF) will only work with skills that don't have side effects, yes?
    A lot of arcane skills, at least a lot f the most often used ones already have some side effect, so Darken/Spirit Blackhole's odds of going off would be pretty low. If they were to work with skills that have effects, having Darken go off with something like Galeforce or other AoEs that have freeze/silence-effects could lead to some confusion. It'd also lead to the possibility of a caster being able to lock others even better if luck plays out for them (Stun/Sleep/Freeze, attack, attack, freeze is added/extended again with silence now thanks to Darken triggering....)

    God of Frenzy is a definite no.

    In any case, I'd be more for keeping Purify and eliminating the speed boost to at least hinder any positioning advantage a caster can get freely or maybe Shield of Chi.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Remember: OP may be a duck|OP/GMs/Devs may not deliver|Search function is your friend|Lurk more|Be wary of Mods: they can't be trusted|This place isn't a hugbox|Your tears sustain me|Know what Bait is|"Soon" may never come|Postcount, Dubs, and other GETs are important|Don't revive long dead threads|There is a section for everything|You can be banned for anything|No Fun Allowed outside of OT|Sweetiebot rules OT|"Circlejerks" are inevitable|Threads can be derailed and saved|Those who use"XD" should off themselves at their earliest convenience|
  • Slivaf - Dreamweaver
    Slivaf - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,106 Arc User
    edited May 2013

    The goal is not to argue whether purify proc should be removed. I find myself thinking "well, Spirit Blackhole on a caster would suck. And they already hit barbs for 30k so GoF would suck. There really is no r9t3 proc I'd rather them have." So I thought a discussion on alternatives to balance the class would be fun.

    I absolutely agree with everything you said, that's why I would hate to see them with a proc like the one suggested by crazybladema.

    I think this thread is a good idea to possibly list some of the proposed modifications to the purify proc, there really is far too much clutter in that thread. I also plan on listing several possible modifications to it. (In no particular order, have no real preference on any of them, but each I feel would so make the proc less... overpowered.)

    1. Purify proc: Stays as is, but gets a nasty side effect like the 5% max hp reduction.

    2. Purify proc: Should only remove Debuffs/remove stuns at the time not make them immune to stuns and slows.

    3. Purify proc: Remove the speed buff. (Not in favor of this being the change at all)

    4. Purify proc: Remains as is, but instead of hp, an mp drain.

    5. Purify proc: Remains as is, but lowers the casters defenses (both sides to about 60-75%ish of their max defense for the duration of the 'boosts.')

    I realize most of those have already been mentioned by others but meh I am too lazy to go through that thread to find out who first came up with each idea.

    As for non purify procs on the weapon...

    The shield of chi might actually be a nice proc for them to have. It would still make them annoying to kill, but it would in all likely hood be far more balanced than the purify proc as it is now.

    How about something similar to revenge where instead of physical attack or magic attack it will recover 5% hp, and have a chance to SLIGHTLY increase their physical defense.EDIT: haha that would be faith. its so already in game.

    Slow: has a chance to slow the opponent. (I think would be another good one for them to have.

    This is all for now, I am sure i'll eventually think of more... but for now this will have to do.
    Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick

    What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)
  • Crazybladema - Harshlands
    Crazybladema - Harshlands Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I absolutely agree with everything you said, that's why I would hate to see them with a proc like the one suggested by crazybladema.

    I think this thread is a good idea to possibly list some of the proposed modifications to the purify proc, there really is far too much clutter in that thread. I also plan on listing several possible modifications to it. (In no particular order, have no real preference on any of them, but each I feel would so make the proc less... overpowered.)

    1. Purify proc: Stays as is, but gets a nasty side effect like the 5% max hp reduction.

    2. Purify proc: Should only remove Debuffs/remove stuns at the time not make them immune to stuns and slows.

    3. Purify proc: Remove the speed buff. (Not in favor of this being the change at all)

    4. Purify proc: Remains as is, but instead of hp, an mp drain.

    5. Purify proc: Remains as is, but lowers the casters defenses (both sides to about 60-75%ish of their max defense for the duration of the 'boosts.')

    I realize most of those have already been mentioned by others but meh I am too lazy to go through that thread to find out who first came up with each idea.

    As for non purify procs on the weapon...

    The shield of chi might actually be a nice proc for them to have. It would still make them annoying to kill, but it would in all likely hood be far more balanced than the purify proc as it is now.

    How about something similar to revenge where instead of physical attack or magic attack it will recover 5% hp, and have a chance to SLIGHTLY increase their physical defense.

    Slow: has a chance to slow the opponent. (I think would be another good one for them to have.

    This is all for now, I am sure i'll eventually think of more... but for now this will have to do.

    I think if they modified purify on the weapon. Should do two things

    1. remove speed buff

    2. Make it only work on auto attacks

    Be a bit more balanced then. But I also thing SHEILD OF CHII would be a great proc for a caster and wouldn't be nearly as broken as purify is as of now.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    SBH would be pretty useless on a caster so give em that
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • RyougiShiki - Raging Tide
    RyougiShiki - Raging Tide Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imo all of those weapon procs are too powerful, and make fights are more lucky dependent.
    heres some idea to make the game more playful and show the difference between skilled players/facerolls.


    GoF/zerk - 1.5x dmg instead of 2x. increase the proc chance to 40%, 30% for normal zerk. no hp cost.

    Spirit Blackhole - randomly removes half of all buffs from the target (if you have 4 buffs then remove 2, if you have 6 then remove 3) instead all of them. works on skills.

    Purify - became a manual skill that anti-stun/speed up for 3 sec, 12sec cd, it cannot break stun but immune to any debuffs during the effect.

    another idea - 100% proc after used a skill, 12s cd.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imo all of those weapon procs are too powerful, and make fights are more lucky dependent.
    heres some idea to make the game more playful and show the difference between skilled players/facerolls.


    GoF/zerk - 1.5x dmg instead of 2x. increase the proc chance to 40%, 30% for normal zerk. no hp cost.

    Spirit Blackhole - randomly removes half of all buffs from the target (if you have 4 buffs then remove 2, if you have 6 then remove 3) instead all of them. works on skills.

    Purify - became a manual skill that anti-stun/speed up for 3 sec, 12sec cd, it cannot break stun but immune to any debuffs during the effect.

    another idea - 100% proc after used a skill, 12s cd.

    I'd give up GoF and sac strike flat out if purify was removed lol
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Infinite is also a viable proc for casters.
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
    Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray
  • ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver
    ApocaIypto - Dreamweaver Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    go go bms find us something

    where were you when casters were left out during the aps farming days? b:victory
  • klys
    klys Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Forum "discussion" is dead because nobody wants to hear people whining about something that isn't broken.

    How about you start a real discussion on how to counter purify in the NW sub forum.

    Or start a discussion about strategies that will be used on non-capture the flag maps that may be coming out- where speed won't mean jack.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    go go bms find us something

    where were you when casters were left out during the aps farming days? b:victory

    Um...wut?

    barb+5 non 5 aps setups gogogo farm!

    sorry we had to spend the equivalent of 1.7 bill on todays market (based off gold inflation) + refines to solo pve
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Um...wut?

    barb+5 non 5 aps setups gogogo farm!

    sorry we had to spend the equivalent of 1.7 bill on todays market (based off gold inflation) + refines to solo pve

    1.7b is pocket change.
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    go go bms find us something

    where were you when casters were left out during the aps farming days? b:victory

    There were aps farming days in pvp? QQ me a friggin river and then write something relevant pls.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Casters had MUCH lower gear req and better returns ijs...

    and yea back in those days for the price of a fully decked out sin/BM you can make a caster just as good for casters
    Channels

    youtube .com/user/WallyPWS Active

    youtube .com/user/tehnewblife Semi Inactive
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    As I've said before - there's no reason magic weapons couldn't have normal procs. Y'know, the procs that some weps have that people just look over?

    How about Enlighten? That'd be pretty awesome for casters.

    Or Toughen? What caster would refuse more pdef?

    Or Wisen? Not as big a buff, but hey, if the heavies can get Toughen...

    Or Intuition! AKA magic Sharpen! :P

    Or Focus! Melees can get Quicken, so why not this?

    Procs don't have to be broken to be useful. >_>
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Crazybladema - Harshlands
    Crazybladema - Harshlands Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    As I've said before - there's no reason magic weapons couldn't have normal procs. Y'know, the procs that some weps have that people just look over?

    How about Enlighten? That'd be pretty awesome for casters.

    Or Toughen? What caster would refuse more pdef?

    Or Wisen? Not as big a buff, but hey, if the heavies can get Toughen...

    Or Intuition! AKA magic Sharpen! :P

    Or Focus! Melees can get Quicken, so why not this?

    Procs don't have to be broken to be useful. >_>

    +1 to this
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    How about no proc >.> as is normal for a caster weapon...
  • Flamespirit - Dreamweaver
    Flamespirit - Dreamweaver Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well, lets see...the gear that is a level of power lower has 40 attack levels instead of a proc. Considering that r93 is above that, I'd be ok with adding an additional 50 more atk levels and removing the purify. That would be ok. Or maybe even the 25 def levels that rank 8 recast has.
  • Chuck_smith - Sanctuary
    Chuck_smith - Sanctuary Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    How about no proc >.> as is normal for all weapons...

    Fixed f:grin
    Sage barb in progress.
  • Kremia - Lost City
    Kremia - Lost City Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    "Chuck Norris syndrome"
    When you get attacked, there is a 80% chance the attacker will instantly die

    that way they would get something to qq about
    b:cry
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    GoF because LOL FRENZY HF EP TRIP SPARK SEEKER DEBUFF AMP BLADE TEMPEST ZERKCRIT
    Channels

    youtube .com/user/WallyPWS Active

    youtube .com/user/tehnewblife Semi Inactive
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Fixed f:grin

    non caster 1-3* weapons all have chances of useful procs

    its really only casters who have no procs and for good reason
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • JoeBlack - Harshlands
    JoeBlack - Harshlands Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imo all of those weapon procs are too powerful, and make fights are more lucky dependent.
    heres some idea to make the game more playful and show the difference between skilled players/facerolls.


    + GoF/zerk - 1.5x dmg instead of 2x. increase the proc chance to 40%, 30% for normal zerk. no hp cost.

    +Spirit Blackhole - randomly removes half of all buffs from the target (if you have 4 buffs then remove 2, if you have 6 then remove 3) instead all of them. works on skills.

    +Purify - became a manual skill that anti-stun/speed up for 3 sec, 12sec cd, it cannot break stun but immune to any debuffs during the effect.


    another idea - 100% proc after used a skill, 12s cd.


    I like those ideas, but also need modify some skills on sin and psy also ,

    + SoS skill of psy :should reduce the chance to get seal from attacking psy to 20%, and time being sealed just 2-3s

    + remove the innen harmony sin skill or make cool down time up to 3 mins not 1min like now. When a class can continuously full 3 sparks, it is a broken of game
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Spirit Blackhole is on archer because the class would simply blow without it, and no one thinks endgame archer is very good anyways as things are.

    GOF is arguably necessary on BMs and barbs. I'd say those are fine.

    Just a note: Infinite would be an extremely viable proc for robes.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Tide_Surfer - Archosaur
    Tide_Surfer - Archosaur Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Spirit Blackhole is on archer because the class would simply blow without it, and no one thinks endgame archer is very good anyways as things are.

    Um archers are probably one of the most OP classes =/
    Insane crit rate+ouchy caster damage = BAM BAM BAM


    And also can I just say, Infinite is an absolute C-R-A-P proc. With most endgame RRR9 casters being 12k HP+, 2.1K HP while being attacked is not much at all. Nor is +50 MP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Tide_Surfer: "I feel SPESHALL *says like a lil kid*"
    Veneir: "Seashell? :3"
    Tide_Surfer: "Yes Veny, yes. A speshall seashell."
  • Tsyren - Dreamweaver
    Tsyren - Dreamweaver Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Try for a damage reduction proc, only more Op?

    Something like.... 15% damage reduction, 10% proc rate, stacks with itself, like the barb attack buff?
  • Tide_Surfer - Archosaur
    Tide_Surfer - Archosaur Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Try for a damage reduction proc, only more Op?

    Something like.... 15% damage reduction, 10% proc rate, stacks with itself, like the barb attack buff?

    15% damage reduction? =/
    wooooooooooooooooow.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Tide_Surfer: "I feel SPESHALL *says like a lil kid*"
    Veneir: "Seashell? :3"
    Tide_Surfer: "Yes Veny, yes. A speshall seashell."
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Um archers are probably one of the most OP classes =/
    Insane crit rate+ouchy caster damage = BAM BAM BAM


    And also can I just say, Infinite is an absolute C-R-A-P proc. With most endgame RRR9 casters being 12k HP+, 2.1K HP while being attacked is not much at all. Nor is +50 MP.

    What you don't know is that the proc doesn't actually give 50 mp. I'd take Infinite on any endgame robe or HA, just not archer.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Tide_Surfer - Archosaur
    Tide_Surfer - Archosaur Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What you don't know is that the proc doesn't actually give 50 mp. I'd take Infinite on any robe or HA, just not archer.

    I was only going off pwdatabase so excuse me.
    But even then, that doesn't make really any difference to the proc at all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Tide_Surfer: "I feel SPESHALL *says like a lil kid*"
    Veneir: "Seashell? :3"
    Tide_Surfer: "Yes Veny, yes. A speshall seashell."
This discussion has been closed.