TW Bidding Rules *"New" Issue*
Comments
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Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »normal members as in commissioners.
Altho i kinda see what your saying, basically if any officership completely detached from the 'main' faction (as in people put into officership that have no relation to the parent faction) govern the alt faction, then thats a usable loophole for commissioners to act on as long as there is no cross section of officers in any way shape or form between the factions in question. is that what your saying?
Correct. What I am asking is if that was the case. Was the officership independent? If not, then yea the bans are in violation of a rule and can't really be feasibly argued as the rule was even clarified on the forum a month ago. If that's not the case, then I think the bans are ill-deserved.Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
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Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »Correct. What I am asking is if that was the case. Was the officership independent? If not, then yea the bans are in violation of a rule and can't really be feasibly argued as the rule was even clarified on the forum a month ago. If that's not the case, then I think the bans are ill-deserved.
would "independent" be of that account, or of that IP in such cases where an individual has complete access to a governing position on a different account.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]lagunal8.deviantart.com
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I'm lost in this conversation.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Tide_Surfer: "I feel SPESHALL *says like a lil kid*"
Veneir: "Seashell? "
Tide_Surfer: "Yes Veny, yes. A speshall seashell."0 -
Tide_Surfer - Archosaur wrote: »I'm lost in this conversation.
Because you're in the wrong thread, the rule about officers being in more than one tw faction while related to this thread isn't the rule they are discussing. This one is about having alt factions on the map being against the rule. And the sudden enforcement of that rule. Stupid internet is being slow right now, but I"ll dig up the thread you're looking for in a moment.
edit: *insert mckayla is not impressed face.* stupid internet! And it was your thread. xDDD so um, yeah no need to link it. xD0 -
Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »Honestly im not sure as to how far 'independent' would range to in this case (which would be the next problem)
would "independent" be of that account, or of that IP in such cases where an individual has complete access to a governing position on a different account.
Well, I cannot answer that. I assume you can make a second, unrelated account just for running the faction, but it would seem that these types of infractions are investigated on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps the GMs would see the IP? I have no idea. I just know what the rule says. If someone was a member of two land-owning factions and was already an officer in one of them, then it seems like the penalties are deserved.Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
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"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
I did not read the entire thing so not sure if someone has already asked this or if it has been answered, can someone clear something for me,
If you are bid upon do you have to "show up" for the TW? If your faction does not Show up can the leader be banned for it? This is in case of a 1 v 1 TW, both factions or atleast the defending faction has only 1 TW at that time.
I am asking this because a few weeks ago on Sanctuary the biggest faction attacked our faction which is kinda smallish and for 15-20 mintues people of that faction did not have catas on our crystal and just kept spawn killing our low level/undergeared people. after the TW we were told that according to the rules we had to show up to them or the leader would be banned. So can someone clarify what exactly are the rules regarding this?
It will be pointless to show to a TW where you have no chance to beat the the other faction and to ban people for that is just ridiculous.0 -
OoArCsTeRoO - Sanctuary wrote: »I did not read the entire thing so not sure if someone has already asked this or if it has been answered, can someone clear something for me,
If you are bid upon do you have to "show up" for the TW? If your faction does not Show up can the leader be banned for it? This is in case of a 1 v 1 TW, both factions or atleast the defending faction has only 1 TW at that time.
I am asking this because a few weeks ago on Sanctuary the biggest faction attacked our faction which is kinda smallish and for 15-20 mintues people of that faction did not have catas on our crystal and just kept spawn killing our low level/undergeared people. after the TW we were told that according to the rules we had to show up to them or the leader would be banned. So can someone clarify what exactly are the rules regarding this?
It will be pointless to show to a TW where you have no chance to beat the the other faction and to ban people for that is just ridiculous.
you have a good point, but how are they even going to enforce these rules i have been part of this game for 4+ and i have only seen a GM ingame once or twice ingame. What are they going to do watch every single tw and make sure the other faction shows up0 -
Chanzeer - Lost City wrote: »you have a good point, but how are they even going to enforce these rules i have been part of this game for 4+ and i have only seen a GM ingame once or twice ingame/
I think some of our members made video of that TW and sent tickets, not sure if anyone was banned for this or not, a lot of -removed- were banned but from what I hear they were banned for "Alt faction Bidding" and not this issue in specific.
So, if according to their rules a defending faction HAS TO show up and then they won't ban the attacking faction members for things like this then their rules are stupid and hilarious. b:laugh
PS : I might be wrong and they some of them might be banned for this issue so don't take my word for it, just saying what I heard.0 -
I have no idea what's really going on, or what's being said underhandedly in this thread, but I'll just assume that on Sanctuary the guild I shall refer to as the Ticket Machine is still up to its same old hypocritical tricks. I should know, I suffered through a week-long ban for the heinous TW crime of bidding on an adjacent land owned by a faction that we couldn’t “reasonably” beat, all because I outbid another guild. Moving on…
I’m amazed that anyone still takes TW seriously. Back in the day (2008/9) TW was appealing because you got paid. For some people bragging rights was the appeal. And then I suppose there are some die-hard pkers who just can’t get enough PVP and enjoy the controlled/safe setting. For me, TW has always been a chore and a burden that wastes too much time, burns too much charm, and offers nothing worthwhile in return. The introduction of NW only reinforced that opinion. Why anyone still bothers with TW is really beyond me.
With that said, the issue of TW integrity is a long standing one. I’m not sure how it is on other servers, but on Sanctuary we have maybe 3 guilds that I consider real TW guilds. (Let the QQ begin) By real I mean legitimate guilds with enough active, independent players to go to TW and actually stand a reasonable chance (this reasonable chance is relative and dependent upon the other top contending guilds). All of the other guilds, despite calling themselves TW factions and trying all year round – they simply cannot compete. (Bracing myself for more mass QQ)
Then you have the alt guilds, that third category, and it’s a grey one. It’s grey because the definition of “alt guild” differs depending on who you ask. As someone who is not in a guild, I find that people who are in TW guilds consider the following to be alt guilds:
- anything with similar names (the top 3 guilds on Sanct have AT LEAST one of these each, some have more)
- a guild owned by a member (officer or not) of another TW guild
- a guild that is independently owned but (aside from officers) is filled with alts from other TW guilds (one or more)
- a guild that is independently owned but allied with another TW guild
- a guild that is the result of a group of people leaving another TW guild (Let the rage begin)
Now, anyone in ANY of these 5 types of guilds will always adamantly insist that they are NOT an alt guild – whether it be because they are insulted you think they’re one, or because they are one and don’t want to admit it or get in any trouble (I don’t care either way). But world chat and forum drama dictate otherwise. And honestly, in many cases, the characters/players, TW practices, static squads for certain events – those support or perhaps “prove” alt-guild-ness (a close affiliation between the player bases and/or leaderships of two guilds). (Waiting for more rage)
The players and the GMs can argue forever over specifically what constitutes an alt guild and which actions violate the TW rules. Focusing on connections between leaderships is not an accurate or comprehensive method of tracking or identifying alt guilds. You really need to take a larger look at the player bases of guilds as a whole. Looking at squad trends for NW would probably be pretty insightful. But, most players have multiple accounts, which makes it difficult to pinpoint who has which character where, and it’s easy for a player to say “that’s not me.” (Rage and QQ nearing capacity)
Personally, I find it to be dishonest and greedy for a top tier guild to TW with an alt guild – it dilutes the TW “pool” so to speak. The weaker independent guilds end up suffering, not growing, and not being able to meaningfully participate in what is supposed to be one of the better aspects of end-game content, all so that the same 200, 400, 600 people can TW more than 3 times every weekend. (Rage and QQ at max capacity)
Here are some hypothetical situations.
Bob lives in America and Sally lives in Finland. They enter into an online romance. Bob is the leader of Loose and Sally is a commissioner. Sally uses her alt on a different account to make LooseJr, which holds alts from Loose. LooseJr is then used for TW, taking lands on the opposite end of the map from Loose. Sally’s irl next door neighbor who is also a Loose member then makes BabyLoose and uses it to bid high on lands of OTHER guilds that are next to Loose land and being bid on by one of the stronger guilds that actually poses a threat.
Rover is the leader of GlassHouse and Robot is Rover’s RL cousin, and the Director of GH. Robot uses an alt on the same account to make BabyGlassHouse. BGH is used to take land at the opposite end of the map. When BGH loses land to another faction, GH declares flame war in world chat and world PK, and in TW takes the land from the other faction.
In my opinion both of these examples SHOULD warrant some action by GMs, though traditionally it never has. (Rage and QQ at critical overload)
These situations get complicated. Really it’s just the result of people taking TW too serious, including the GMs. TW isn’t the main attraction anymore. It would be nice if the rest of the players would out-grow it the way the game itself has.
(Curious to see how much of my post the mod devours)0 -
oVenusArmanio wrote: »Because you're in the wrong thread, the rule about officers being in more than one tw faction while related to this thread isn't the rule they are discussing. This one is about having alt factions on the map being against the rule. And the sudden enforcement of that rule. Stupid internet is being slow right now, but I"ll dig up the thread you're looking for in a moment.
edit: *insert mckayla is not impressed face.* stupid internet! And it was your thread. xDDD so um, yeah no need to link it. xD
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh thank you for clarifying that for me![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Tide_Surfer: "I feel SPESHALL *says like a lil kid*"
Veneir: "Seashell? "
Tide_Surfer: "Yes Veny, yes. A speshall seashell."0 -
uhhh... but vinat basically got it all right..... coming from me, that means a lot.
the rule regarding alt factions can be easily circumvented, a certain faction on sanct server who already has an alt faction on the board can be observed in WC recruiting specifically for a 2nd alt faction who is lead by completely independent people (or alts on separate accounts, who are generally unknown to most) from leadership. all this means is that this faction has met the guidelines for fair use, YET, this faction will be filled with able-bodied alts of commissioners and random WC recruited schmoes AND personally "controlled" by the owners of said larger TW faction.
on the matter of the bannings, i find it completely backwards that members of one faction are allowed to ticket other factions, while at the same time being in violation of the same rules they are griping about!! not only that, but the main faction being punished.... most of those members are not even members of said alt faction. requiring tickets to be sent in order to spark an investigation is woefully inadequate as well, if one faction mass-tickets a situation, it would be more simple for the support staff to address the whole map, JUST LOOK AT THE NAMES THESE ALT FACTIONS ARE CREATED IN THE EXACT SAME METHOD, and tackle the issues fairly by targeting all instances of said abuse at one time.
..... the only problem is that nobody would ticket in that case since only those in violation of the rules are the ones ticketing others breaking the same rules. since last season, the map on sanct server has been cut and parceled, the big 3 eat the major cities, and leave smaller areas of conflict for the smaller factions. why was this issue regarding alt factions not addressed when one faction held a considerable amount of land on an alt faction for the majority of the season? they even counter attacked on their main faction routinely. they have been doing that since before TW was split into seasons!
normal factions will not bid on bigger ones, the disparity is too great. unless the support staff start making stickied announcements in the server forum regarding lands that should be attacked for free, most of those lands will just sit there untouched.
you can't stop collusion on the map between factions, PWE can't monitor guildlaunch, skype, vent, teamspeak, facebook, etc etc... at all. there are about 4 diff factions on the map that share members and tactics at one point or another, yet even though that amounts to the same abuse, the TW rules do not address it.
this can really simple, no alt factions allowed, do some research, go back at least 6 months of membership and look up the obvious alt factions. mark em on the map and announce those lands are not defensible. once those factions are off the map, you can start zero tolerance enforcement. randomly deciding to enforce a rule without the chance for compliance is folly. but how does that stop a commissioner and 5 friends from forming a faction and bidding on obviously empty land(since ppl dont bid anymore) and sitting on 10m a week?0 -
@OoArCsTeRoO: As far as I know if a leader bid on a faction and don't show a attack war it's banable cause it was a fake bid with no intention of wining, but for a defense war I think not showing is not against the rules, you didn't decide to get attacked.
For the thread, I do understand that ban may be discuss in private, but I think rules should be allowed to discuss in public, since rules apply to everyone.
If PWI really want to fix the alt factions issues then they will need to enforce some other rules, there's a LOT of people that share accounts and run more then one faction and they use other people accounts (people that left the game or inactive people) to run the alt factions. So if something happen it's not the guilty person that will get directly punish, but only the account that was use for it, so the only punishment for the guilty person is that the person won't be able to use the account for the period of time of the ban. (not a big deal when the person have his own accounts still playable)
I think they should start to punish the guilty person and not only the account used for it. A lot of people abusing the TW system use other people accounts (people that gave them account when leaving or just let the person use the account for w/e reasons) for it so if something happen they know their own account are safe.
Example: let's say that someone call Bob left the game and gave his account to someone call Emma, Emma use Bob account to make a alt faction and make a fake bid on her main faction to protect from stack.
If that get reported in the actual rules, Bob account will be punished and Emma will get nothing since it's not her account.
So I think that yes ''Bob'' account should be punish for being use for something against the rules, but the person that used it for abuse the system should be punish as well and PWI should have the tools to see which IP logged ''Bob'' account to make the fake bid and punish Emma's account as well so the person get punish for what she have done as well as the the used account for it.
People abusing the system are not stupid, they use other people accounts so if they get report it's not directly them that pay, but the used accounts, but if the rule get change and become something like:
''A player reported for abusing the TW system and proved guilty will be punish on his owned accounts and the used account for the abuse will be penalize as well''
Something that will send the message, that if you abuse the system you will get punish even if you didn't done it from your account.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
man you guys add so much waste to my thread, it used to be so marshmallowy. b:cry
ty for not locking too, after i went through so much fun to make it appropriate forum posts b:thanksfull r999 91% chan wizzy b:kiss
Current build: pwcalc.com/bf1f46790766e26d
LuLz: pwcalc.com/20f3fa96ab3c4dc00 -
FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »man you guys add so much waste to my thread, it used to be so marshmallowy. b:cry
ty for not locking too, after i went through so much fun to make it appropriate forum posts b:thanks
ahm so soweeeeeeeee!!! but but, you linked my meme!!!!!! i had to write a wall of text!
they should just.... http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37493745.jpg0 -
Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »@OoArCsTeRoO: As far as I know if a leader bid on a faction and don't show a attack war it's banable cause it was a fake bid with no intention of wining, but for a defense war I think not showing is not against the rules, you didn't decide to get attacked.
That is not correct, below is the PM I got from Valance. So basically big factions can bully small factions all they can no one cares. b:laugh
-snip-0 -
OoArCsTeRoO - Sanctuary wrote: »That is not correct, below is the PM I got from Valance. So basically big factions can bully small factions all they can no one cares. b:laugh
-snip-
Showing pm is against the forum rules.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
b:dirty "I **** rainbows and love everyone"-Longknife b:cute0 -
Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »Showing pm is against the forum rules.
This, sorry. b:surrender0 -
oVenusArmanio wrote: »This, sorry. b:surrender
omg seriously who makes these rules? That was an informative PM surely you guys can have some flexibility and allow such PMs? Or you guys just have to follow all the rules set like a robot?
neways thats the last i post on this topic.0 -
OoArCsTeRoO - Sanctuary wrote: »omg seriously who makes these rules? That was an informative PM surely you guys can have some flexibility and allow such PMs? Or you guys just have to follow all the rules set like a robot?
neways thats the last i post on this topic.
lol its not hard to share what the pm said without writing what the pm said... b:cutefull r999 91% chan wizzy b:kiss
Current build: pwcalc.com/bf1f46790766e26d
LuLz: pwcalc.com/20f3fa96ab3c4dc00 -
^ This. If your smart, you simply won't point out that it's a PM, and make a few quick edits to the way words are used. Simple as that. Or just say that it was a discussion that you had with someone on your guild forums.
Anyway, evading this TW rule is simple enough if your smart, diligent, and organized. The main thing here is to know how to keep your mouth shut, and use a bit of theatricality. If you can master these skills, you could take over an entire server, and no one, including GMs or the Dev's, would be any wiser to the fact. I won't go into details, because the world doesn't need to see how evil I really am. No, seriously though, I don't want to see people attempt this and get banned.
It's amazing what I can come up with in an hour, thought of the perfect way to pull it off after people started getting banned left and right a couple weeks ago. Of course, I won't even attempt it. If I fail, my character is just too precious for me to risk. b:laughGollum - Middle Earth wrote: »My Precioussss f:laugh
Seriously though, attempting to evade the rules isn't cool, even if your smart enough to try and pull it off. There's always one thing that you can never account for: variables.
Who's going to catch on to what, what kind of info PWI systems track on your log-ins, etc. So don't do it. Chances are, you'll become your own worst enemy if you do.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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