Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I agree with everything in this post except your assumption, melee have all the tools they need to be competitive with a caster. Purify is basically a game mechanic that encourages DPH over DPS, and helps to deal with the endless CC that some classes have.. it is balanced just fine with characters of equal gear/skill in my experience.

    It's much easier to lock down a melee than an Arcane in a situation where there's a lot of lower geared people going after them with no support. I'm not saying the melee can't retaliate, but their ability to do so is lackluster in comparison to an arcane. It's not about whether they can tank the hits, it's about whether they can get out of the locks and once genie, apo, and anti CC skills are used up it's going to be difficult while the Arcane has Purify Spell to break it.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    It's much easier to lock down a melee than an Arcane in a situation where there's a lot of lower geared people going after them with no support. I'm not saying the melee can't retaliate, but their ability to do so is lackluster in comparison to an arcane. It's not about whether they can tank the hits, it's about whether they can get out of the locks and once genie, apo, and anti CC skills are used up it's going to be difficult while the Arcane has Purify Spell to break it.

    And this is where we are having the issue. I talk about balance assuming everyone is end game (r9rr with good refines), not factoring in people that have lesser gear. Just about any modification to purify proc that would appease those with lesser gear would muck up the current balance that exists between everyone that is r9rr.
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    And this is where we are having the issue. I talk about balance assuming everyone is end game (r9rr with good refines), not factoring in people that have lesser gear. Just about any modification to purify proc that would appease those with lesser gear would muck up the current balance that exists between everyone that is r9rr.

    This is where you're misunderstanding.. I'm talking about having both types of players in the same situation, with the same gear, where one can outperform the other because of the proc. We aren't comparing everyone in full end game gear, but there are situations where the proc far better equips an arcane to handle something than an equal geared melee. It's not the situation you're thinking of, but it is a situation that's common enough that it presents a balance issue.

    Giving the proc a cooldown seems like it would fix that, while leaving everything else pretty much unaffected.
  • Ahira - Lost City
    Ahira - Lost City Posts: 791 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    You can go ahead and remove it now that i'm 105 from solo pv b:thanks
    --Retired--

    Factions: Forbiden, Genesis, Conqueror, BloodLust, Zen, Spectral
    Active October 2008- August 2009; Semi-active- May 2010
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    This is where you're misunderstanding.. I'm talking about having both types of players in the same situation, with the same gear, where one can outperform the other because of the proc. We aren't comparing everyone in full end game gear, but there are situations where the proc far better equips an arcane to handle something than an equal geared melee. It's not the situation you're thinking of, but it is a situation that's common enough that it presents a balance issue.

    Giving the proc a cooldown seems like it would fix that, while leaving everything else pretty much unaffected.

    I'm fairly sure I understand exactly what you are saying, I just don't agree. Let's just say I grant you that casters with purify proc are more efficient noob killing machines, I still don't think that is a balance issue at all. The classes are not supposed to be identical, it is expected that some outperform others in certain areas. For example, lowbie clerics have an easier time making it through 100 second stand rooms than most other classes, and bms/sins often times have an easier time getting into squads for w/e instances than many caster classes. Balance really only comes into play in PvP situations (at least imo) and when everyone is equal gear (and I think purify is just fine when everyone is r9rr).

    edit: Also gz Ahira!
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'm fairly sure I understand exactly what you are saying, I just don't agree. Let's just say I grant you that casters with purify proc are more efficient noob killing machines, I still don't think that is a balance issue at all. The classes are not supposed to be identical, it is expected that some outperform others in certain areas. For example, lowbie clerics have an easier time making it through 100 second stand rooms than most other classes, and bms/sins often times have an easier time getting into squads for w/e instances than many caster classes. Balance really only comes into play in PvP situations (at least imo) and when everyone is equal gear (and I think purify is just fine when everyone is r9rr).

    edit: Also gz Ahira!

    If balance only comes into play in PvP then why mention PvE content below end game?

    It's not a situation that occurs everywhere, I'll give you and other people who like Purify Spell the way it is, but it's still somewhat broken. A cooldown would be a nice addition to it, given what it does.
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If balance only comes into play in PvP then why mention PvE content below end game?

    It's not a situation that occurs everywhere, I'll give you and other people who like Purify Spell the way it is, but it's still somewhat broken. A cooldown would be a nice addition to it, given what it does.

    I brought up PvE content as a counter example of sorts for the way you were defining balance. Nobody has a problem with classes having differences (I would hope) or advantages in certain areas, just so long as it all balances out in the end (presumably in PvP like scenarios).

    If purify were to be given a cooldown (which is extremely unlikely), I'd like to hear what you'd nerf for non-caster classes (or another boost for casters) that'd re-balance things for r9rr pvp. Realize though, it likely won't be as simple as just adding a cd for gof/purge as well.. PvP is far too complicated for a simple fix like that. Purge for example would be almost unaffected by a cooldown.. after your target is purged, it generally doesn't matter that you can purge again. However if purify was given a cooldown and a random mob triggers it or a sin's knife throw before you are in any danger.. you'd be basically forced to genie/apoth to survive until proc would became available again. It would actually nerf gof pretty nasty too.. in end game pvp it is often times necessary for a zc to get a kill, so having a zerk occur at the wrong time could totally ruin a shot at a kill combo.
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I brought up PvE content as a counter example of sorts for the way you were defining balance. Nobody has a problem with classes having differences (I would hope) or advantages in certain areas, just so long as it all balances out in the end (presumably in PvP like scenarios).

    If purify were to be given a cooldown (which is extremely unlikely), I'd like to hear what you'd nerf for non-caster classes (or another boost for casters) that'd re-balance things for r9rr pvp. Realize though, it likely won't be as simple as just adding a cd for gof/purge as well.. PvP is far too complicated for a simple fix like that. Purge for example would be almost unaffected by a cooldown.. after your target is purged, it generally doesn't matter that you can purge again. However if purify was given a cooldown and a random mob triggers it or a sin's knife throw before you are in any danger.. you'd be basically forced to genie/apoth to survive until proc would became available again. It would actually nerf gof pretty nasty too.. in end game pvp it is often times necessary for a zc to get a kill, so having a zerk occur at the wrong time could totally ruin a shot at a kill combo.

    To be fair, Purify Spell in and of itself is a boost, it can be nerfed without doing anything to the other classes because in any case it's still a boost to the classes that utilize it. Before it was implemented Arcanes had no particularly useful weapon procs, then they were given Purify Spell. A nerf to it wouldn't really require a nerf to the other procs unless they were horribly unbalanced, which doesn't seem to be the cause (excluding certain class specific situations).

    If Purify Spell is ticked before you'd like it to be it's very easy to get distance and kite it out until the effect has cooled down. As it stands all procs rely on luck to go off, and that's about how it should be I think. Nobody should have control over their proc. Granted, there could be other ways of balancing Purify Spell that might be better suited, but when you consider what it does.. even if you take yourself out of the fight for a while.. you can still kite it off and get it back, then go into the fight with it ready. Or you can tank people out for however long it is. In a group situation where you have support and buffs it'll be difficult to be brought down in 30 seconds unless they lock down your team and focus for you hard. Specifically you. And even then, you'd need to do pretty much nothing to defend yourself to actually die to that.

    I don't think there's much reason to nerf the other procs of Purify Spell is nerfed, because like I said.. in any case it's still a buff to the class, even if it is given a cooldown.
  • AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver
    AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I honestly am banging my head against a wall right now, iv read and reread this whole thread and all people seem to be doing is complaining. It's BOOORRRINNNNGGGGG, are any of you people that are QQ'in R9rr +12 JOSD or w/e. I'm yet to be convinced, just having the R9rr weapon doesnt mean ur R9rr geard btw b:mischievous

    In my experience there is always someone better. Better gear, better sharding, better genie, better player.

    Never forget G16/R9 was never in a million years suppose to be equal to R9rr and the bonus effects you get with that gear. Now until known R9rr player's of different classes start to have concerns about the fairness of it. In an equal 1v1 battle or group pk then this post is pointless.

    I applaud Adroit's patience, for cant see how he can be any clearer....
  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I honestly am banging my head against a wall right now, iv read and reread this whole thread and all people seem to be doing is complaining. It's BOOORRRINNNNGGGGG, are any of you people that are QQ'in R9rr +12 JOSD or w/e. I'm yet to be convinced, just having the R9rr weapon doesnt mean ur R9rr geard btw b:mischievous

    In my experience there is always someone better. Better gear, better sharding, better genie, better player.

    Never forget G16/R9 was never in a million years suppose to be equal to R9rr and the bonus effects you get with that gear. Now until known R9rr player's of different classes start to have concerns about the fairness of it. In an equal 1v1 battle or group pk then this post is pointless.

    I applaud Adroit's patience, for cant see how he can be any clearer....

    Fact remains if puri spell wasnt the way it was, G16 nirvana or regular R9 would have no problem at all taking a caster out, simply because you could keep the caster in place.

    But on the other hand a G16 nirvana caster class can take out a HA/LA R9rr relatively easily, it's a joke. If anyone wants to claim that's not true, go ahead b:chuckle if you can't as a G16 caster then you pretty much have no idea what you're doing.

    How is that for balance? b:shutup
  • Chuck_smith - Sanctuary
    Chuck_smith - Sanctuary Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited April 2013

    In my experience there is always someone better. Better gear, better sharding, better genie, better player.

    What I have underlined (Because of Rank8+ and Nirvana gear) does not mean a better player... Infact it goes to the opposite for most people and it made them less skilled, as well as them having lower reaction time and low attention span. That does not make a better player at all and it influences others to get to 100/101 ASAP and get those gear too.
    Sage barb in progress.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Psh, the veno was 3rd cast.. and my hp never dropped below 5k. I didn't expect to get that low.. but the only reason I was there trading blows with you guys (rather than capping the flag.. my apoth was not on cd) was to farm some points :P Gave all of us more personal contribution.. you're welcome b:cute

    Also @Kniraven
    Lowbies can still help against end game casters.. they just need to do what they should be doing (CC/amps/debuffs) rather than trying to contribute negligible damage. And I don't think people of lesser gear are or should be part of the balance equation.. balance is a concept that only makes sense when everyone is at the same gear level.

    Perhaps you aren't grasping what I'm saying and i should put it in a different format.

    If 20 people of lesser gear attack me with negligible damage, even if that is only a single strike per second per player that is 20aps and my hp drops quite quickly.

    My 15 second antistun and 15 second sprint are both significantly inferior at that point when compared to your 5-8% chance to be completely purified as well as given a speed buff during every single one of those individual hits.

    You call their damage negligible, but it isn't because people without your weapon are extraordinarily more subject to control skills in a group pvp or focus fire situation. Not only that but only 2 of the classes without that weapon can attack a group of enemies at range.

    For the most part, the stuns, seals, amps, etc you suggest lesser geared players use also have a chance to activate your proc.

    Balance between my class and yours at end game is completely off in this regard. I can be ganked to death easily by large groups of nonfactors. Any competent caster at end game won't be. I have to hope and pray people on my side of a fight don't use any unnecessary attacks. You could care less because anything anyone does against me while fighting on your side is 99% of the time beneficial.

    Frankly I'm shocked you're even arguing against me on this. It's obvious the mechanic gives a ridiculous advantage and I'd never considered you someone who'd argue biasly just because one side gave him an edge :/
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver
    AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Fact remains if puri spell wasnt the way it was, G16 nirvana or regular R9 would have no problem at all taking a caster out, simply because you could keep the caster in place.

    But on the other hand a G16 nirvana caster class can take out a HA/LA R9rr relatively easily, it's a joke. If anyone wants to claim that's not true, go ahead b:chuckle if you can't as a G16 caster then you pretty much have no idea what you're doing.

    How is that for balance? b:shutup

    You make good points iv seen that happen too in TW and NW, however you can be a full R9rr caster and still be pawnd by most any classes with comparable attack v defence lvs There is a massive difference between being +6/7 with immac cits and being +12 JOSD. With low defence lvs and hp you will die easily even to G16 geared toon that has comarable gear in terms of refines/hp. My understanding is you dont get the benifit of the puify with low hp anyway. If im wrong then i hold my hand up.
  • AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver
    AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    What I have underlined (Because of Rank8+ and Nirvana gear) does not mean a better player... Infact it goes to the opposite for most people and it made them less skilled, as well as them having lower reaction time and low attention span. That does not make a better player at all and it influences others to get to 100/101 ASAP and get those gear too.

    Sorry i wasn't clear in what i ment. I ment a better quality player. Not better due to the gear they have.
  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    You make good points iv seen that happen too in TW and NW, however you can be a full R9rr caster and still be pawnd by most any classes with comparable attack v defence lvs There is a massive difference between being +6/7 with immac cits and being +12 JOSD. With low defence lvs and hp you will die easily even to G16 geared toon that has comarable gear in terms of refines/hp. My understanding is you dont get the benifit of the puify with low hp anyway. If im wrong then i hold my hand up.

    From what the discussion here is supposed to be about Adroit is talking full R9rr vs full R9rr, equal geared same refines etc, etc.

    A G16 nirvana caster that has around the same refines as a R9rr LA/HA class would easily take out the HA/LA if he knows what he's doing.

    However a G16 BM/Barb/sin that has around the same refine as a R9rr caster is a whole different story, simply because DPH output is ultimately lower, you'd have to get close to the caster in the first place and the more hits you have to use on the caster, the more likely it is puri proc will trigger and then it's pretty much game over if the caster isn't stupid enough to stand still and take a beating. Even IF you do know what you're doing and you are skilled, you can't save yourself from the puri proc, besides pretty much run the other way and try again later.

    The only thing I see Adroit claiming here is that you MUST HAVE R9rr with equal refine and shards in order to take out another R9rr. Which is maybe true if you're the melee class in melee vs arcane, but definitely not true when you're the arcane.

    I'm not saying they should remove the proc, but the way it is now is retardely unneeded, every debuff gets purified and you're immune to movement debuffs AND you're on crack while running away.

    I mean really, just make the proc the way the name implies to be "PURIFY spell" as in, purify debuffs not "Purify and immune to movement debuffs while running at the speed of sound spell".
  • AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver
    AlphaOmegaX - Dreamweaver Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    From what the discussion here is supposed to be about Adroit is talking full R9rr vs full R9rr, equal geared same refines etc, etc.

    A G16 nirvana caster that has around the same refines as a R9rr LA/HA class would easily take out the HA/LA if he knows what he's doing.

    However a G16 BM/Barb/sin that has around the same refine as a R9rr caster is a whole different story, simply because DPH output is ultimately lower, you'd have to get close to the caster in the first place and the more hits you have to use on the caster, the more likely it is puri proc will trigger and then it's pretty much game over if the caster isn't stupid enough to stand still and take a beating. Even IF you do know what you're doing and you are skilled, you can't save yourself from the puri proc, besides pretty much run the other way and try again later.

    The only thing I see Adroit claiming here is that you MUST HAVE R9rr with equal refine and shards in order to take out another R9rr. Which is maybe true if you're the melee class in melee vs arcane, but definitely not true when you're the arcane.

    So make a wizzy/Psy DB.. problem solved b:chuckle
  • _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver
    _dblazen_ - Dreamweaver Posts: 566 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    So make a wizzy/Psy DB.. problem solved b:chuckle

    My first toon on this account is a wizard b:laugh I just haven't gotten around to gearing him up completely yet to G16 as im busy with making a different toon for other purposes.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I brought up PvE content as a counter example of sorts for the way you were defining balance. Nobody has a problem with classes having differences (I would hope) or advantages in certain areas, just so long as it all balances out in the end (presumably in PvP like scenarios).

    If purify were to be given a cooldown (which is extremely unlikely), I'd like to hear what you'd nerf for non-caster classes (or another boost for casters) that'd re-balance things for r9rr pvp. Realize though, it likely won't be as simple as just adding a cd for gof/purge as well.. PvP is far too complicated for a simple fix like that. Purge for example would be almost unaffected by a cooldown.. after your target is purged, it generally doesn't matter that you can purge again. However if purify was given a cooldown and a random mob triggers it or a sin's knife throw before you are in any danger.. you'd be basically forced to genie/apoth to survive until proc would became available again. It would actually nerf gof pretty nasty too.. in end game pvp it is often times necessary for a zc to get a kill, so having a zerk occur at the wrong time could totally ruin a shot at a kill combo.

    In end game pvp between nothing but r9rr players, giving purify a cooldown would have a negligible effect. It procs 5-8% the time. If you regularly stand in place and tank 20 or so hits from +12 r9rr weapons within the suggested cooldown period (15-20 seconds) then there are some entirely new balance issues we should talk about.

    But regardless, and even if that were the case. We are already imbalanced in completely different ways. As a result of casters dmg modifier and stat requirements for armor, your normal attack hit significantly higher at end game than a normal crit from us anyway. That's the entire reason zerk exists in the first place.

    Furthermore, aside from out damaging us in every respect period, you're a ranged class with more mobility skills than every melee class save MAYBE assassins.

    Don't even try to claim purify is needed to balance your class against anything in this game except maybe an assassin because all else that's an irrevocable joke

    P.S. In another post you talk about how developers are trying to encourage dph over dps. Sadly, ALL melees are a DPS class with or without interval gear and we are forced desperately now to try not to be. Our damage is absolutely pathetic, so we have to hit more often regardless of gear in order to kill someone, and in our quest to increase our dph we're forced to lower our accuracy. Yeah, we miss too.

    Gg
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • LoraTab - Dreamweaver
    LoraTab - Dreamweaver Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I happen to know of one full g16 bm on dreamweaver that is all +10 with a magic cube neck, magic belt, magic refine rings, and all sapphire gemed. While he is wearing a charm and use magic def charms, It really feels like a total waste of time hitting him. As a full r93 +11 I have to actually get lucky or have help depleting his hp fast enough.

    As for control skills, what do sage wizards really have?
    1. Hailstorm that takes nearly 3 seconds to cast and has about a 1 in 5 chance to lock you in place for only 4 seconds. Sin, bms, and seekers all have a tele to attack target skill that is not bound by it.
    2.Mountain sieze that takes two sparks and takes nearly 6.4 seconds to cast which will stun you for 6 seconds.-- it actually takes longer to cast than the stun time, so it is like stunning yourelf for 6.4 to stun them for 6 and it costs two sparks.
    3.Blinding blaze. Curse the target for 45 seconds .If attacked during this time, the target has a chance to be immobilized for 3 seconds. This effect cannot be triggered more than once every 8 seconds. Costs one spark and takes nearly 2.5 seconds to cast. Needless to point out that this is the cheapest of ever classes aeu skill-

    So even with purify, I'd say any melle class has a better chance at locking me down than I have of locking them down.


    Just a secondary thought, wizzy skills are so slow to cast in r93 that to kill a 20-25k life r93 josd or sapphire gemed archer for instance, what do you think the chance of the situation being a fully buffed archer against and unbuffed wizzy is.--pretty high. How much dmg do you think a fully buffed archer has on an unbuffed wizzy in the ten seconds or so to cast enough skills to actually kill said archer? they should nerf spirit blackhole on r93 bows first and foremost.
  • Heartz - Dreamweaver
    Heartz - Dreamweaver Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    How much dmg do you think a fully buffed archer has on an unbuffed wizzy in the ten seconds or so to cast enough skills to actually kill said archer? they should nerf spirit blackhole on r93 bows first and foremost.

    Quite alot. I crit what.. Uhm 4-4,5k on an unbuffed full +12 R93 wizard - who isn't even josd build.. And he hits me 2 to 3 times that amount, with me being buffed. I'm not full +12 yet, I'm only sporting 21,3k hp, 81 def vlls and 13,3k mdef with 23,5-32,5k p.att.. but still lol. My only chance to kill r93 full +12 caster is wait for purge to proc, where off the +12 caster can still easy kill me unbuffed. It's people like yourself who is too unexperienced and not knowing of how it is that makes polls useless.
    105 - 105 - 105 (14th march 2014)

    Join date: November 2008 - HT.
  • LoraTab - Dreamweaver
    LoraTab - Dreamweaver Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Yeah- it is true that I don't have the pvp experience that you and some of the others have, but I do have some and I have been playing just about as long as most as I started back in may of 09 or so. I do get that farming experience is not translatable to pvp.

    Still, all but maybe 1-3 most tricked out geared wizzy on our server, once their buff is gone are toast very fast if they don't run from an archer such as yourself. Unbuffed 90% of wizzy has under 13k life and im guessing ones like fay probably have about 15-16k unbuffed. Almost all of our def comes from stonebarrier and cleric buffs which goes away with purge. Purge happens pretty frequently. It usually seems like I'm hit before im in distance to hit u back and it stuns me directly followed by a flurry of arrow shots that purge and kill me . Generally I only live if I manage to activate a dmg immune in time to avoid death and then yes- my dmg is high enough I'll probably kill an archer it they hang around for the 4-5 seconds it takes me to cast a spell.
  • Northern - Dreamweaver
    Northern - Dreamweaver Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If the arguement for nerfing purify is based only on what a r93 all +12 with josd is like, then it is a non issue there are only a few on each server who decide to spend the money to get that. Well, sure a couple merchants could get it too(yeah farmers too in the old days, but not anymore), but basically all josd is like 2k$ r9 is like 1.3k$ All +10 is like 750$ and then to +12 everything another 1.5k $or so then another 1.5k to get the nation war stuff. Now I know a lot of idiots actually spend 5k or more on this game, but at this point in the games lifespan if they choose to do so I almost feel sorry for them. Virtually any adult with a job in America could but the vast majority have the good sense not to.b:bye Nerfing the majority of wizards,cleric,psy,mystics, and veno because of what a handful of people can accomplish is dumb.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Implying it would even really nerf them. It's a nerf to the proc, not to the classes themselves. The classes, by the way, at equal gear have little trouble being able to handle equal geared melee. Yes, they can die, but so can the melee.. it comes down to skill and genie setups in most cases. A nerf to the proc is STILL a boost to the classes overall, because they had no proc at all in the first place.
    I happen to know of one full g16 bm on dreamweaver that is all +10 with a magic cube neck, magic belt, magic refine rings, and all sapphire gemed. While he is wearing a charm and use magic def charms, It really feels like a total waste of time hitting him. As a full r93 +11 I have to actually get lucky or have help depleting his hp fast enough.

    As for control skills, what do sage wizards really have?
    1. Hailstorm that takes nearly 3 seconds to cast and has about a 1 in 5 chance to lock you in place for only 4 seconds. Sin, bms, and seekers all have a tele to attack target skill that is not bound by it.
    2.Mountain sieze that takes two sparks and takes nearly 6.4 seconds to cast which will stun you for 6 seconds.-- it actually takes longer to cast than the stun time, so it is like stunning yourelf for 6.4 to stun them for 6 and it costs two sparks.
    3.Blinding blaze. Curse the target for 45 seconds .If attacked during this time, the target has a chance to be immobilized for 3 seconds. This effect cannot be triggered more than once every 8 seconds. Costs one spark and takes nearly 2.5 seconds to cast. Needless to point out that this is the cheapest of ever classes aeu skill-

    So even with purify, I'd say any melle class has a better chance at locking me down than I have of locking them down.


    Just a secondary thought, wizzy skills are so slow to cast in r93 that to kill a 20-25k life r93 josd or sapphire gemed archer for instance, what do you think the chance of the situation being a fully buffed archer against and unbuffed wizzy is.--pretty high. How much dmg do you think a fully buffed archer has on an unbuffed wizzy in the ten seconds or so to cast enough skills to actually kill said archer? they should nerf spirit blackhole on r93 bows first and foremost.

    You seem to be forgetting about Force of Will, that 5 second seal they have. Along with their Reversion skills, which are essentially control skills which cannot be blocked other than with full immunity. I know you were referring to Sages, but those aren't the only Wizards around. Demons have extra chances to stun in Stone Rain and Emberstorm, along with a higher chance to freeze on Hailstorm. All of this combined with Distance Shrink and the occasional Morai skill that leaps them back make for something than can keep another class controlled quite efficiently while being hard to actually lock down. It's easy to take less than 6 seconds at the most (-channeling makes it far less) to cast their 2 spark stun should they choose to do so when they can slow their target after leaping 30 meters away. I don't imagine it's much harder to get other skills off within that time frame if they conserve their sparks. When played right a Wizard can make good use of their control skills, sure they can't stunlock, but they can keep you from doing anything at key moments and gain distance so that you can't actually hit them.
  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited April 2013
    You guys are horrible and should feel bad. The topic's being watched, even if not commented on. No need to try and make it get closed or blow things up further. :P

    *sweeps posts under the rug*
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    image
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    SweetieBot, analyze this thread
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  • SweetieBot - Lothranis
    SweetieBot - Lothranis Posts: 18,978 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    SweetieBot, analyze this thread
    SweetieBot has finished reading the thread: Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!!

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  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    @Zanryu - You are looking at the "purify boost" too narrowly. Yes, this was the first useful/obtainable weapon proc for magic classes, but it wasn't introduced on its own. It came with boosts to the other classes (r9rr + morai.. morai wasn't exactly the same time but it was relatively close). Being that you primarily play a BM, you can think of it as a balance for the extra morai cc skills that bms got.. wiz vs bm was already fairly well balanced before r9rr + morai, but bms ended up with more control skills with the update, so there needed to be something added to help counter that (enter purify proc).

    Also both your and Kniraven's assumptions about how adding a cooldown would be negligible in r9rr pvp does not match with my experience at all. There were actually a lot of assumptions that both of you made that just do not match my experience in end game pvp.. but quite frankly I'm just getting tired of arguing about this. I've said really everything I wanted to say already, and I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be having this discussion if you guys were in end game gear. If you can get someone that is end game geared and competent in pvp to complain bitterly about how broken proc is, I'll take this conversation back up.. but right now I feel like I'm just wasting my time.
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    @Zanryu - You are looking at the "purify boost" too narrowly. Yes, this was the first useful/obtainable weapon proc for magic classes, but it wasn't introduced on its own. It came with boosts to the other classes (r9rr + morai.. morai wasn't exactly the same time but it was relatively close). Being that you primarily play a BM, you can think of it as a balance for the extra morai cc skills that bms got.. wiz vs bm was already fairly well balanced before r9rr + morai, but bms ended up with more control skills with the update, so there needed to be something added to help counter that (enter purify proc).

    Also both your and Kniraven's assumptions about how adding a cooldown would be negligible in r9rr pvp does not match with my experience at all. There were actually a lot of assumptions that both of you made that just do not match my experience in end game pvp.. but quite frankly I'm just getting tired of arguing about this. I've said really everything I wanted to say already, and I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be having this discussion if you guys were in end game gear. If you can get someone that is end game geared and competent in pvp to complain bitterly about how broken proc is, I'll take this conversation back up.. but right now I feel like I'm just wasting my time.

    If Purify Spell is balance to BM's CC skills, where are a BM's counters to Wizard's morai skills? We didn't really get any. You've got your reversions, neither of which actually have a counter other than to be fully immune via IG/Sutra Power Orb/AD, or for it to fail. We only got one extra stun that lasts 3 seconds and is available only at 75% or lower HP. Reel In does much less than your Reversions, it can pull someone in and stop a spell from going off, but it's very easy to predict what's coming after it. Keep in mind that both of these skills have two minute cooldowns, while your reversion only have a 45 second cooldown. Only one of those is CC, but you also have Ice Prison and Blinding Blaze. They're chi consuming, but Wizards get as much CC as a BM does with the Morai update. It's hard to believe Purify Spell is solely here to balance balance out morai skills when the morai skills themselves are already decently balanced. BM's new CC skills require good timing to be used effectively, given their cooldowns and chi cost, and while Wizards are in the same boat for theirs it's still pretty balanced when you consider that both classes got a good buff with Morai updates.


    Our assumptions aren't negligible, nor are they simply assumptions. A cooldown on the proc wouldn't hinder any Arcane in a 1v1, and if they're in a situation where they have an entire squad gunning for them then a lucky proc should not save them. Not once, and especially not multiple times, so having the proc in the first place with a cooldown is STILL a boost for Arcanes. Even if it won't allow them to escape a situation where they are under extremely heavy fire. The only classes that should be able to take those kind of hits and come out standing are Heavy Armor, and even they have issues with that.

    The way I see it is, giving the proc a cooldown will make 1v1s more balanced, and it'll prevent "lucky breaks" in group PvP more efficiently, and prevent you or any other Arcane from getting out of a situation where you'd die otherwise more than once. What's so bad about giving it a cooldown if the only place it'll really matter is in a situation where the Arcane wielding the weapon would die anyway?

    I'm in agreement with the feeling of wasting time, nothing I or anyone else says seems to be able to get through to you. Though I imagine you feel the same, only with what you say being unable to get through to us.
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If Purify Spell is balance to BM's CC skills, where are a BM's counters to Wizard's morai skills? We didn't really get any. You've got your reversions, neither of which actually have a counter other than to be fully immune via IG/Sutra Power Orb/AD, or for it to fail. We only got one extra stun that lasts 3 seconds and is available only at 75% or lower HP. Reel In does much less than your Reversions, it can pull someone in and stop a spell from going off, but it's very easy to predict what's coming after it. Keep in mind that both of these skills have two minute cooldowns, while your reversion only have a 45 second cooldown. Only one of those is CC, but you also have Ice Prison and Blinding Blaze. They're chi consuming, but Wizards get as much CC as a BM does with the Morai update. It's hard to believe Purify Spell is solely here to balance balance out morai skills when the morai skills themselves are already decently balanced. BM's new CC skills require good timing to be used effectively, given their cooldowns and chi cost, and while Wizards are in the same boat for theirs it's still pretty balanced when you consider that both classes got a good buff with Morai updates.


    Our assumptions aren't negligible, nor are they simply assumptions. A cooldown on the proc wouldn't hinder any Arcane in a 1v1, and if they're in a situation where they have an entire squad gunning for them then a lucky proc should not save them. Not once, and especially not multiple times, so having the proc in the first place with a cooldown is STILL a boost for Arcanes. Even if it won't allow them to escape a situation where they are under extremely heavy fire. The only classes that should be able to take those kind of hits and come out standing are Heavy Armor, and even they have issues with that.

    The way I see it is, giving the proc a cooldown will make 1v1s more balanced, and it'll prevent "lucky breaks" in group PvP more efficiently, and prevent you or any other Arcane from getting out of a situation where you'd die otherwise more than once. What's so bad about giving it a cooldown if the only place it'll really matter is in a situation where the Arcane wielding the weapon would die anyway?

    I'm in agreement with the feeling of wasting time, nothing I or anyone else says seems to be able to get through to you. Though I imagine you feel the same, only with what you say being unable to get through to us.

    blade tornado can cut down 95% of AAs in 2 seconds

    the only true source of QQ purify is against magic flag carriers in NW, which is already being fixed much in the same fashion as APS was fixed, by a collateral shift on what it is effective for.
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  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    blade tornado can cut down 95% of AAs in 2 seconds

    the only true source of QQ purify is against magic flag carriers in NW, which is already being fixed much in the same fashion as APS was fixed, by a collateral shift on what it is effective for.

    Oh how I beg to differ. Fully buffed Arcanes can survive it very well. Even self buffed they're given ample time to get out of the way. In most cases it will only hit once, especially in 1v1. In group PvP where everyone is full buffed it won't do more than about 1/3 of the HP of a caster max, unless they're heavily debuffed or get purged. The only thing BT can "cut down" is someone who's unprepared or has worse gear in comparison to the BM's axes. There are G16s I can one shot with it, and there are R9R3s I can barely scratch with it. It can be used to cause immense damage, but that requires debuff support.

    In any case, the topic was support skills, and while BT can slow its targets by 30% for 3 seconds it hardly counts as control, more anti control than anything.

    How is it being fixed exactly?
This discussion has been closed.