Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Unholly - Lothranis · April 2013

On the subject of 20v1s, i have played a full r9 +12 sin vs 20 tt90-r8 and 2 nirvana T2 geared players, from my experience there i can say that what kills are the amps/debuffs/stuns. I can run around Aoeing and OSing as much as i like, i will eventually burn through all my apoths and survival skills. Then after everything was on CD these 18 people(at the time) stunned me and burst my hp down in a matter of 5 seconds. With purify proc this would not be the case, in my opinion thats not right. Numbers should > CS gear. If nothing else >.>

In 1v1 and group pk purify is just as good/bad as any other weapon procs, they all are ehh.... just as broken as each other in these instances.

@The people who mentioned APS in this thread: Yes its was overpowered in the past, but to use it as an excuse to say another class/class type should then be overpowered because of it is "lazy and indicative of an inferior mind".

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think the biggest problem is that the effect has no cooldown.
Purify Spell is basically a combination of Wizard Arcane Defense and Archer Elven Alacrity.

Wizard Arcane Defense proc gives auto-purify and has a 25 second cooldown (passive buff).
Archer Elven Alacrity gives anti-stun / speed and has a 3 minute cooldown and takes 1 spark (active skill).
Purify Spell proc gives auto-purify / anti-stun / speed and has a 0 second cooldown... huh?

It probably should have around a 45 second cooldown. This would limit how well it can scale with multiple attackers while not effecting 1v1 ability too much.

^ This

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver · April 2013

A full r93 +12 will not run out of attacks ,genie, and apothecary before 20 sub r93 sub +5 players are killed. Aparently there is a misconception of just how strong the armor and the weapon itself is. The top dude that are nearly unkillable are running around with 75+ def lvs 125+attack lvs and 750+ in their main dmg attribute as well as base resist of all kinds being very high. They are rocking 17-25+k life with a charm. ANd they are setting at 20+ crit percent.

Whether they are a full r93+12 bm, barb, psy, archer, mystic, wizzy, cleric, etc.. 19 noobs have no chance. None. Also chances are in nw it's really only 10 noobs cause the other ten are out looking for the flag or pvping in the center.

Really this is only a nw issue as such it's in the wrong section.

Kniraven - Lost City · April 2013

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A full r93 +12 will not run out of attacks ,genie, and apothecary before 20 sub r93 sub +5 players are killed. Aparently there is a misconception of just how strong the armor and the weapon itself is. The top dude that are nearly unkillable are running around with 75+ def lvs 125+attack lvs and 750+ in their main dmg attribute as well as base resist of all kinds being very high. They are rocking 17-25+k life with a charm. ANd they are setting at 20+ crit percent.

Whether they are a full r93+12 bm, barb, psy, archer, mystic, wizzy, cleric, etc.. 19 noobs have no chance. None. Also chances are in nw it's really only 10 noobs cause the other ten are out looking for the flag or pvping in the center.

Really this is only a nw issue as such it's in the wrong section.

What does your gear look like?

Eoria - Harshlands · April 2013

Once again, 1 vs. 20's have been done by classes other than arcanes in end-game r9rr gear. Sorry to burst bubbles here, but mostly what allows them to do so is a gear gap between r9rr and...well, anything that is less than r9rr.

Kniraven - Lost City · April 2013

You are both wrong.
Show me one melee class that can come here and prove they easily beat 20 G13 people by themselves in PvP.

Just one.

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

You are both wrong.
Show me one melee class that can come here and prove they easily beat 20 G13 people by themselves in PvP.

Just one.

Don't you think asking for "proof" on forums is a little silly? The only way to prove this would be to post a video (that includes both the pk and a show gear of every opponent).. and there aren't many melees on forum that fit the necessary gear requirements.. and only a small fraction of those with gear record/post videos.. and of the ones that have the gear + record videos, they'd also need to find themselves in the scenario you laid out (pretty unlikely lmao). Also realize you haven't offered any proof yourself, everyone is just speculating based on their experience playing in game. I can tell you that 1st nv players deal low 3 digit damage to me (often times 2 digit damage.. especially when I'm buffed), and you can really even the odds in the duration of an IG.

Honestly I don't think we'd be having this same convo if you were running around in my gear and fought against armies of noobs like I have.

Heartz - Dreamweaver · April 2013

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

What does your gear look like?

this barb is one of those "randoms" - i forgot his gear, but not endgame or near.
unless ofcourse he has another char.

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary · April 2013

Cody__Tylor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay, how about the effects on gear is too overpowered? I even have overpowered mid/high level equips too like atrophy and stun. Procs happen too often and I careless about what other people have.

Thanks to how easy access gaining gear which does too much of a performance. Why farm when you can just get stuff easy like dreamchaser packs, divine weapons and G13/G15/G16 Nirvana very easily now? Why cash shop if there is NW that gives too much rewards? Only thing to do is merch in this game and it gets old, I am fine making money IRL instead IJS. Hello Kitty island adventure... I don't even know what kind of game that is. I barely even play games anymore >.>

No competent person has argued that gear as a whole is balanced. The debate at hand is regarding specifically purify spell. The debate on proc weapons as a whole has pretty much been put to bed, they've been a standard too long and every r9r3 weapon depends on them. A weapon would need to be extremely overpowered in terms of base damage to make it more worthwhile than a weapon with a good proc.

Good for you, you have awesome low level gear, but the game as a whole is broken, with or without purify, such that pay to win applies regardless of what class you pick. R9R3+12 JOSD seekers are hugely overpowered, as are sins, bms, archers, and barbs.

And I'm pretty sure this who thread is moot, since no amount of complaining is going to make PWI remove purify spell, especially not while there are people who still may buy it (and as long as there are people making new casters they're still hopeful of that). People are still going to be willing to pay to upgrade to r9r3 caster weapons, I doubt many people will pay PWI for them to be removed.

Onatop - Lost City · April 2013

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

You are both wrong.
Show me one melee class that can come here and prove they easily beat 20 G13 people by themselves in PvP.

Just one.

AGREED, a melee class without purify will b stun locked to hell by bm/sin and ***** by mages. Even if they are full +12 carrying the flag, they wont get far, since u cant use genie skills. One anti stun skill + 1 vac pot may carry you a distance, but after that u're screwed for another minute. In the end u'll probably take 5-10 mins walking to the flag point, soloing an instance in NW, vs g13 geared people. You can even die to APS sins if they triple spark u. Meanwhile a mage with purify spell can get there in less than 1 minute with the added speed and anti stun effect.

DON'T DENY IT PURIFY SPELL IS OP!! Its all fine defending you weap/class... but don't deny it LOL.

There's only 1 way to keeeeel them mages... bm disarm, then amp, then DD - u got 6 seconds. U RDY? gogogogog.

watch from 3:30. Me, Pureone, and Kut timed this against Hexstart during 1 nw. It can be done but, boy u need coordination and luck. I say luck because disarm it self can trigger the purify effect, and if that happens u're screwed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_2wmWk6LrI

As for the argument about keeping purify, I say keep purify and remove the increased movement and anti stun effect.

OR

Give bms (or wut ever) reduced cool down on their movement skills, or give bm's a weap proc skill like this: "Has a chance to recover 5000 HP over 10 seconds, recover 3 sparks, increase mdef by 6000 points, and def lv by 30 points"

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Ok on the more realistic topic. I really don't think pwi gonna remove the effect. The best thing they can do is the remove the effect of purify during NW only!!!!

darknessofmy · April 2013

any r9rr can beat r9 so easy, get r9rr or just quit. so far only non-r9rr crying about it. END OF STORY!!

Onatop - Lost City · April 2013

darknessofmy wrote: »

any r9rr can beat r9 so easy, get r9rr or just quit. so far only non-r9rr crying about it. END OF STORY!!

U stupid? Any r9 and beat any r9 easy.. LOL

Cody__Tylor - Heavens Tear · April 2013

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary wrote: »

No competent person has argued that gear as a whole is balanced. The debate at hand is regarding specifically purify spell.The debate on proc weapons as a whole has pretty much been put to bed, they've been a standard too long and every r9r3 weapon depends on them. A weapon would need to be extremely overpowered in terms of base damage to make it more worthwhile than a weapon with a good proc.

Proc weapons have been on standard for too long, I agree. It was dependent since the old days (calamity axes of blood for example was a popular weapon).

Good for you, you have awesome low level gear, but the game as a whole is broken, with or without purify , such that pay to win applies regardless of what class you pick. R9R3+12 JOSD seekers are hugely overpowered, as are sins, bms, archers, and barbs.

Well you're just saying right now is saying the same thing I am saying. The game is very broken beyond repair for all levels, thanks to these implements to make the game less "impossible" to play and to boost toons unecessarily.

And I'm pretty sure this who thread is moot, since no amount of complaining is going to make PWI remove purify spell, especially not while there are people who still may buy it (and as long as there are people making new casters they're still hopeful of that). People are still going to be willing to pay to upgrade to r9r3 caster weapons, I doubt many people will pay PWI for them to be removed.

It is better to leave everything as it is than to make something more broken but whatever, instead of the devs nerfing things and not caring about people QQing, they boost things up to make it worse.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · April 2013

Adroit, how could you even argue that purify is balanced?

Look at your own video - Aderp 2.0 - Scene 1. There were multiple times where the activation of purify proc alone meant that you did not need your genie to survive. Despite having multiple CC and debuff skills being spammed on you, you proced purify multiple times and managed to survive a 1 v 20 where most people were at least G16, and at least two people were R9.

Through that, you used your genie a total of 1 time for windshield. You had to use 2 ironguards in the process, but it was completely unnecessary to use your genie despite being at risk of dying quite a few times since purify was consistently procing. At one point your hp reached as low as 4.5k.

If you did not have purify proc, there is absolutely no way you could have pulled that off. Maybe you could have used your genie and then IGed for 12 seconds and done a fair bit of damage. But after that? You survived for a whole 4 minutes and you were in no position at all to kill all 20 people in 12 seconds.

In addition, you were ranged. A melee wouldn't even be able to do half of what you did. A single level 100 with Nirvy gears would not be able to do that to 20 people with level 30 gears at all. The single fact that you had purify proc meant that it was easier for you to defeat 20 average geared person easier than it was to defeat a single well geared person.

Does it actually make sense at all to say that 20 people should be easier to defeat than 1 person?

Also, I pointed out that video specifically since in that first scene, you were not attempting to capture the flag. So purify proc can be just as bad in world pvp as in NW.

As far as balanced gears go, yes, I agree that purify proc wouldn't be AS bad. But balanced?

What down side do you have to using purify proc? All you have to do is stand there and it will activate. People using GoF and Purge actually have to attack someone, CC them, and in fact, without the proc, they probably can't even kill their target. An archer's average damage per second is not even high enough to kill a fully buffed full end game wizard through their charm.

Sure, purify proc would **** people over less, but balanced? I see no reason why you should have a random chance to survive when you have to do absolutely nothing on your part to trigger it. Sure, if you were kitting, and purify has a random chance to make you immune to stun and anti stun, maybe that makes sense. But if you're just standing there, going fully offensive, I don't see how it makes sense to proc a defensive skill at all.

Azura - Lost City · April 2013

Purify is balanced. The problem is that the -distribution of power- in the game is not balanced. That is the real problem. If everyone had the same r9-3 gear we wouldn't see these 1vs20.

Also, the problem with purify is mostly related to nation wars. All the qq is because 1 uber-geared mage can solo 20 under-geared players. Well, guess what? Nation war is being redesigned already.

The only problem that I have with purify is that it makes this game like a huge casino. Everything is based on changes, but then again melee users depend on sz to kill, and archers depend on their spirit black hole.

This thread had some good intentions at the beginning and even some good ideas, but it quickly degenerated to a -it's not fair they have such awesome gear, and why can't I herp-derp like I used to do-. This game has always had some very op class for a certain period of time. First it was venos, then bms, wizards, sins, psys, and wizards again. And if seekers would just learn to play, they would be the next ones.

SweetieBot, when is this thread going to be closed?

SweetieBot - Lothranis · April 2013

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

SweetieBot, when is this thread going to be closed?

Not I.

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Adroit, how could you even argue that purify is balanced?

Look at your own video - Aderp 2.0 - Scene 1. There were multiple times where the activation of purify proc alone meant that you did not need your genie to survive. Despite having multiple CC and debuff skills being spammed on you, you proced purify multiple times and managed to survive a 1 v 20 where most people were at least G16, and at least two people were R9.

Through that, you used your genie a total of 1 time for windshield. You had to use 2 ironguards in the process, but it was completely unnecessary to use your genie despite being at risk of dying quite a few times since purify was consistently procing. At one point your hp reached as low as 4.5k.

If you did not have purify proc, there is absolutely no way you could have pulled that off. Maybe you could have used your genie and then IGed for 12 seconds and done a fair bit of damage. But after that? You survived for a whole 4 minutes and you were in no position at all to kill all 20 people in 12 seconds.

In addition, you were ranged. A melee wouldn't even be able to do half of what you did. A single level 100 with Nirvy gears would not be able to do that to 20 people with level 30 gears at all. The single fact that you had purify proc meant that it was easier for you to defeat 20 average geared person easier than it was to defeat a single well geared person.

Does it actually make sense at all to say that 20 people should be easier to defeat than 1 person?

Also, I pointed out that video specifically since in that first scene, you were not attempting to capture the flag. So purify proc can be just as bad in world pvp as in NW.

As far as balanced gears go, yes, I agree that purify proc wouldn't be AS bad. But balanced?

What down side do you have to using purify proc? All you have to do is stand there and it will activate. People using GoF and Purge actually have to attack someone, CC them, and in fact, without the proc, they probably can't even kill their target. An archer's average damage per second is not even high enough to kill a fully buffed full end game wizard through their charm.

Sure, purify proc would **** people over less, but balanced? I see no reason why you should have a random chance to survive when you have to do absolutely nothing on your part to trigger it. Sure, if you were kitting, and purify has a random chance to make you immune to stun and anti stun, maybe that makes sense. But if you're just standing there, going fully offensive, I don't see how it makes sense to proc a defensive skill at all.

I don't think the word balance can really apply to characters of different gear levels.. the word balance only applies when everyone is on an equal playing field. Your entire post is talking about the balance that should take place between a single r9rr and 20 lesser geared people, but you could use that exact same argument to say that it is unbalanced that 100 3x players can't kill a single r9 player (which I doubt you really have a problem with, it is expected to have a massive advantage in this case). I don't think this kind of comparison makes any sense (comparing someone on one gear level to several people of a lesser gear level), so the reason I say purify is balanced is because in r9rr pk where everyone has equal gear, it is a great equalizer in many cases (1v1 wiz vs sin being an excellent example). Purify is a fantastic effect, it helps in r9rr pk (doesn't make you immortal by any means), and as a side effect absolutely dominates when you fight shet geared noobs. Let me reiterate, I think people are pointing their fingers at the wrong thing.. what people really have a problem with is how much better new armor sets are over the previous ones.. the armor sets themselves are fairly well balanced (actually not entirely true, but purify isn't the part causing the imbalance imo).

Zsw - Dreamweaver · April 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I don't think the word balance can really apply to characters of different gear levels.. the word balance only applies when everyone is on an equal playing field. Your entire post is talking about the balance that should take place between a single r9rr and 20 lesser geared people, but you could use that exact same argument to say that it is unbalanced that 100 3x players can't kill a single r9 player (which I doubt you really have a problem with, it is expected to have a massive advantage in this case). I don't think this kind of comparison makes any sense (comparing someone on one gear level to several people of a lesser gear level), so the reason I say purify is balanced is because in r9rr pk where everyone has equal gear, it is a great equalizer in many cases (1v1 wiz vs sin being an excellent example). Purify is a fantastic effect, it helps in r9rr pk (doesn't make you immortal by any means), and as a side effect absolutely dominates when you fight shet geared noobs. Let me reiterate, I think people are pointing their fingers at the wrong thing.. what people really have a problem with is how much better new armor sets are over the previous ones.. the armor sets themselves are fairly well balanced (actually not entirely true, but purify isn't the part causing the imbalance imo).

Well i don't think we can exactly compare 100 3x player to a single r9 player, since at that level it is more than a gear difference, it is a skill difference. Though Imo, it is perfectly possible for 100, or even 20 lv. 100 player in 3x gears to kill a single r9 player (Assuming they have all their skills at level 10 and a genie). It's a zerg rush basically, where number purely overpowers due to the sheer number of debuffs and CC. You would have to go through the AD + IG chain of 20 people DDing on you, while they just have to wait out 1 of yours. Although this would be quite impossible to actually test, so its really hard to discuss much out of it, i'd say.

But lets say we are comparing equal gears then. What does it equalize? In a 1 v 1 sin vs wiz, a wizard can stack maximum pdef gears like so:
http://pwcalc.com/1c3b1201adac0403

and still do very decent damage. That would still put their effective hp at 292,300 against a sin: http://pwcalc.com/c09df53195dbfee1

Sins only outputs 26,605 base damage on their faster skills, so they can't out DD a wizard's charm without a few crits and zerks. As is, sins already have to combo multiple skills to secure a kill. If prior to this, sins could just faceroll and kill a wizard, then I could see how it is balanced because then a purify would be used to balance a wizard's squishiness. However, wizard's are not squishy to begin with. Even if a wizard messes up and purify does not proc at all, a sin still has a chance to not be able to secure a kill purely due to their weapon not procing gof. If its tidal protection we're talking about, there is a time frame where tidal protection is off. Purify is constantly active. Also, upon landing a debuff on tidal, it will last the full duration. You can easily land a debuff on purify and have it removed the next hit you do. What is purify balancing?

Anti stun and stun breaks you have your genie. You can gain extra survival too through your genie. You can holy path as well through your genie. With purify, you basically don't have to use your genie, while your opponent has to use theirs. Sure, there would be less occurrence of the sin getting killed when purify proc, but still, it would easily break a sin's kill combo without the wizard actually even making an effort to survive while the sin has to conduct a lot of comboing to kill. I don't necessarily see this as equalizing.

Well, lets look at mass pk. Yes, it is true that as a DD, being on the "front lines" would almost certainly make it hard to survive. However, considering that you are ranged, you by default survive better than Sins, BMs, and Barbs already. So I am still not sure, what is it balancing by allowing you to survive even better?

And what if you played a support class? You don't have to kill people even. Just support your squad and run away. Support classes are hard enough to kill already since not only do you have to go through their own personal defenses, but you also have to go through all their squad member protecting them. Now in addition to that, they can just run away with purify. My cleric friend for example, now dies only 2-3 times per TW ever since acquiring purify. If its not immortality, its close. I hope that you could elaborate more on what exactly purify proc is balancing, since I do not seem to see eye to eye with you on this.

Onatop - Lost City · April 2013

Let's all boycott PWI (melees), then it will b purify spell vs purify spell b:laugh

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver · April 2013

The full r93 sin does hit hard enough to 2-3 shot the wizzy. If you are not sure how a full r93 max gear sin works out watch Goredawn on our server do just fine in a fight with someone like fay. (if they would fight.

Also keep in mind your talking about gears that the average pwi player does not have. The average even r93 arcane on dreamweaver will flat out get owned by the average r93 archer on dreamweaver. Especially when the archer sneak attack in a situation like nw.

Deadalus - Harshlands · April 2013

When someone really thinks, that you have to be r93 to kill an r93 aa, then you doing sth wrong.

When someone is telling you, that 20 average geared players (G13/15/16, r8) cant kill a single r93 aa class just because of one proc on his/her weapon, you are out of your mind.

Sure, that gear dont hurt too much on an r93 equipped person, but 20 of them? you would get your a/ss handet to you pretty fast.
Puri is OP as it is, arguing this with APS, GoF or Purge is nuts, because APS doesnt deal that high damage anymore and an r93 person can easy kill that one.
GoF... really? Yes the 12k hits hurt, but i call you, when an aa person isnt hitting me for 9~10k noncrit (average geared player). So you telling me, meelee deals too much damage, when a zerk hits and you need puri to counter this OPnes? yes ofc, because it makes so much sense.

Purge? Ok, Purge is very string and without buffs, you are pretty much dead but it depends on the archer (or whatever class is attacking with a purge bow/pike whatever) on how often he can attack you, till he dies from your insane high attacks.

Just remove the speed buff and everything is fine.. for me. So casters have something but nothing too OP as it is now.

I have to agree with alot of ppl here, who says, that Puri is OP and give perfectly fine reasons why.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · April 2013

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The full r93 sin does hit hard enough to 2-3 shot the wizzy. If you are not sure how a full r93 max gear sin works out watch Goredawn on our server do just fine in a fight with someone like fay. (if they would fight.

Also keep in mind your talking about gears that the average pwi player does not have. The average even r93 arcane on dreamweaver will flat out get owned by the average r93 archer on dreamweaver. Especially when the archer sneak attack in a situation like nw.

I would like to see Goredawn 2-3 shot Fay on a regular basis, but I'm pretty sure Goredawn does not pk and I rarely see Fay out, so not too sure how that works. Perhaps you could fraps them doing a 1 v 1?

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver · April 2013

pretty sure that r93 sin in the sin section of the forums has a video of him wailing on similar geared barb. Wizzy do have good physical def, but less than a r93 barb. Full r93 sin actually hits harder than you are probably imagining. I am not josd and only all +10 r93 but goredawn has one shot and two shot me both in nw. It is really only the aps bms and sins that aren't so much the threat anymore.

Zsw - Dreamweaver · April 2013

Flamespirit - Dreamweaver wrote: »

pretty sure that r93 sin in the sin section of the forums has a video of him wailing on similar geared barb. Wizzy do have good physical def, but less than a r93 barb. Full r93 sin actually hits harder than you are probably imagining. I am not josd and only all +10 r93 but goredawn has one shot and two shot me both in nw. It is really only the aps bms and sins that aren't so much the threat anymore.

Think you can link me the video? I can't find it.
But its a barb you say? Any video of a wizard?

Mrvate - Heavens Tear · April 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGw-PmqCDvw

I'm pretty sure this was the video Flamespirit is referring to.

And just a note although the gear is "similar" there are links to there gear in the description. the sin pretty easily has several billion coin more worth in gear over the barb. And if someone does have a link to a vid of an endgame sin vs an endgame wiz I'd love to see it. I have yet to find one.

ZSW you argue the points well, and I completely agree with you Puri proc is OP'd.

I think imo the best option would be to either remove the speed boost/anti-stun after it. Or to give the proc a CD time.

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

@Zsw - An end game wiz vs sin is actually a pretty close match right now, both characters are very tanky and it can go either way. The sin does enough damage to always be a threat.. it's not like aps where you can ignore till they triple.. skill spam with a few zerks/crits/zc in a row or at the right time are more than enough to kill a wiz.. adding in amps and sparks/powerdash etc force defensive options. On top of this, sins can almost perma cc a wiz.. which is actually where proc comes in. 99% of the time I'm fighting a good sin is sitting there stunned/slept/sealed/immo'd (usually when im low on hp I blink out.. end up not on the ground.. never a good thing) waiting for a proc so that I can attack again. It is not feasible to use genie/apoth to deal with the constant lock of a sin, genie/apoth need to be saved for the amps/chain of zc etc etc.. and even if you thought it was a good idea to try to counter every cc with genie (absolutely asinine idea), your genie regen would never compete with the chi/cd on sin control skills.. and as stated previously, you would be totally helpless when the sin then decides to subsea/dash/double or triple spark. Without purify, a sin could just continue the endless cc and every few zerks/crits etc force genie/apoth until the wiz runs out of options and dies without ever having a real chance to attack back. Purify doesn't proc often enough to be relied on, I still regularly have to genie to save myself, but when it does proc.. it at least gives my genie a little time to recharge and allows me to try to get a hit or two off.

The other problem is that sins are stupid hard to kill as well.. you have very narrow windows of opportunity to get a few hits off (before the next sleep/stun/seal hits), which really limits your options. I've found a wizard's best option is usually a spark combo (big surprise), but this is still not easy to pull off. The sin I'm thinking of rarely wasted genie/apoth, and was/is stupid fast with sof/domain/faith/IG/sutra power/triple spark.. I could usually get one hit off (~17-18k non crit with undine and spark) before he was able to react.. but a second hit was/is rare. That sounds like it'd be easy mode, but between tidal resisting undine/spark (oh forgot to mention.. he usually kites me if tidal is not up, so rarely get to fight him without it).. having to kill twice due to nerves, 17-18k not being a one shot (wtf..), and that very narrow window where I can get a hit off, it is not easy at all.

Our fights generally last between 5 and 40 mins (with some longer), and it can really go either way. It often times comes down to chance where he might get a chain of zcs several times in a row (force my genie.. then immediately after get another chain of zcs when my genie is low), or after enough time and tries I finally get a proc at the right time after an undine has landed through tidal and he isn't full hp, and nerves is on cd, and he doesn't predict it (when he knows a set of circumstances like this is showing up.. he'll often times triple spark to purify undine + get 25% reduction + force me to kite again.. which is annoying as hell) and then spark lands through all that and I get a bypass. I'm not going to say that is the only way, but getting a kill on him almost always requires a ridiculous set of circumstances like above.. and proc is necessary to both last long enough for this to happen (which often times does not happen.. I die pretty close to 50/50 in 1v1s against him) and to enable me to even attack back.

I think wiz vs sin is actually very well balanced right now, and almost any modification to proc that has been proposed would muck with that balance. There are several other examples (although I don't think they are quite as straight forward as this one), but this is already a wall of text and I don't really feel like making it longer atm.

fuzzywuzz · April 2013

This thread was started with what appears to Fuzzy to be the intention to speak about the Purify Spell itself and if/why/how it might need a second look.

The discussion for the last several pages seems to be descending into an argument aimed only at the issue of a sin vs. a wiz.

Please don't make the panda close this thread for having been derailed. b:lipcurl

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

This thread was started with what appears to Fuzzy to be the intention to speak about the Purify Spell itself and if/why/how it might need a second look.

The discussion for the last several pages seems to be descending into an argument aimed only at the issue of a sin vs. a wiz.

Please don't make the panda close this thread for having been derailed. b:lipcurl

An example of how purify is necessary is certainly relevant to "Purify Spell itself and if/why/how it might need a second look."

fuzzywuzz · April 2013

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

An example of how purify is necessary is certainly relevant to "Purify Spell itself and if/why/how it might need a second look."

Example, yes, 2+ pages of the same people trying to speak louder than the other to impress their point..... not so much.

Adroit - Lost City · April 2013

FuzzyWuzz wrote: »

Example, yes, 2+ pages of the same people trying to speak louder than the other to impress their point..... not so much.

I don't think we are reading the same thread, the discussion the past couple pages is not people repeating the same things over and over again.. it is a discussion. It sounds like you just don't like what I have to say.

Tsyn - Raging Tide · April 2013

@Adroit: Guessing that the sin in question was Bait? He seems to triple spark a lot and kite when tidal is off, from what I've seen.

Either way, this is about (for me at least) Purify proc in multi-person PvP. I'm not at all concerned with it's 1v1 capabilities. However, the fact remains that Purify Proc remains rather overclocked when dealing with multiple opponents, and the number of hits taken increases survivability exponentially (which should be the other way around). Sin vs Wiz does not matter to me - in fact, I agree that wizards should retain Purify proc, at least the purify and antistun, for 1v1ing them.

I still believe that something like Asterelle's solution - a CD - or else removing the Speed buff - should be done.

I also believe that I should still restate this: Purify Proc is a different sort of effect, and this is why it is so complained about much right now. It, besides "Infinite", is the only proc that I know of that activates without using a skill/dealing damage. GoF/Purge/etc etc are all based off the user's ability to fire enough shots off that the % blesses them with a proc.

However, Purify proc does not require the caster to use any skills. Because it is attached to the "defensive" part of PvP - taking damage, and not the "offensive" part - using or dealing damage - it is remarkably different from what we've experienced before.

Therefore, a caster does not have to deal damage to benefit from it. This lowers the amount of skill needed. Even APS was never this "Requisite: Skill not needed."

Currently, this poll is about 50/50, which would lead me to believe that most casters are voting for it, and melees against. However.... I still believe the Devs ought to at least rebalance it slightly.

Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

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