Vit Stone Vs JoSD for archer

Bhavyy - Raging Tide
Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
edited April 2013 in Archer
Today it was suggested that at end game, vit stones improve survivability more than JoSD because attack level differences are so high now with the R9R2 weapons everywhere. I'm not a maths genius enough to work this out but i can understand it if some sort of comparison was made.
I was originally going to go full JoSD due to how the calculator also constructed by Asterelle (i believe) showed that JoSD wins by a fair distance.

http://aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html#charClass=0&level=103&vit=83&mag=37&str=105&dex=703&hp=14381&pdef=6393&mres=7108&deflev=54&opplev=101&oppattlev=130&pdefbuff=120&mresbuff=60&hpbuff=30&pdefgearbuff=0&mresgearbuff=0&hpgearbuff=10&dlevbuff=0&optimalType=2&opppreset=0&buffpreset=3&gemquality=1&calcOptimal=1&numSock=22


These are the (soon to be) stats for my archer (basically full +10 R9R2) which a lot could relate to against someone with 130 attack levels (which is around or perhaps slightly more than what most R9R2 players have but i'd rather over compensate than under.)

To be honest there isnt a massive difference between the survivability of vit stones vs jades. But jades still seem to win?
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Another option is to save up DoTs for the "Jade of Steady Attack" that china already has. That should make its way here within a few months.
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  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Another option is to save up DoTs for the "Jade of Steady Attack" that china already has. That should make its way here within a few months.

    Yeah I thought about this too. With those shards people will be able to get up to like 200 attack levels..

    in which case Vit stones would be better
    http://aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html#charClass=0&level=103&vit=83&mag=37&str=105&dex=703&hp=19404&pdef=9272&mres=6611&deflev=62&opplev=101&oppattlev=200&pdefbuff=120&mresbuff=60&hpbuff=30&pdefgearbuff=0&mresgearbuff=0&hpgearbuff=10&dlevbuff=0&optimalType=2&opppreset=0&buffpreset=3&gemquality=1&calcOptimal=1&numSock=22
    the cross over seems to occur at about 153-54 attack levels even for a +12 full end game gear build (NW neck and ring)
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  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Another option is to save up DoTs for the "Jade of Steady Attack" that china already has. That should make its way here within a few months.

    But then you get one shot by any mage that so much as looks at you.
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  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    But then you get one shot by any mage that so much as looks at you.

    To be honest i really hope those attack level shards dont come out. They're stupid lol.
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  • Dylena - Raging Tide
    Dylena - Raging Tide Posts: 1,416 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    But then you get one shot by any mage that so much as looks at you.

    haven't experienced that, are you referring to DoT archers with +1 armors?
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    To be honest i really hope those attack level shards dont come out. They're stupid lol.

    if they do come out that means I'll have to re-shard my DoT's for the 3rd time. b:spit
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  • XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear
    XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    JoSD's are reduce damage shards which ideally make them better and the preferred option. Vit's raise your resistances, and hp. I was a full Vit stone archer in my r9s1, the only more beneficial thing that Vit offered over JoSD was the immediate hp gaining. With JoSD and DoT you have to get your hp from refines which if you can afford JoSD's you should be able to +10/12 your gears.

    Currently the two builds I am considering are full DoT with an o'maily's blessing for def levels, and full JoSD and a Jones to get offense and defense. Under ideal circumstances, my armors will be full +10 with the bow at +10 and hopefully 12. (This is all r9s3 of course).
  • nixop
    nixop Posts: 158 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    But then you get one shot by any mage that so much as looks at you.

    full attack level build doesnt make much diffrence in pk


    tho in tw is really useful for archers...if you know how to play right you can cause massive squad wipes (+ useing genie for more attack level)
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I am full DoT (+10 r9 gear, +12 weapon) with an O'Malleys, and I hate it. I wish I had vit stones or Jades instead. I can't be bothered to **** with it anymore. I'd advise against attack level sharding unless the speculated higher attack level shards come to our version.
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  • nixop
    nixop Posts: 158 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I am full DoT (+10 r9 gear, +12 weapon) with an O'Malleys, and I hate it. I wish I had vit stones or Jades instead. I can't be bothered to **** with it anymore. I'd advise against attack level sharding unless the speculated higher attack level shards come to our version.

    back in days before NW update came out it was a decent tw build
    (i remember cuz i had it myself)

    if you would go full dot build on third recast armors this days i believe it wouldnt be bad at all

    but again it would suck for pvp

    the attack level you could get with jones bless + frenzy on demon boa is just deadly ;o
    (especialy with all crit % you get from third recast)

    its gonna be even more deadly soon +2attack level gems come out
  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I am full DoT (+10 r9 gear, +12 weapon) with an O'Malleys, and I hate it. I wish I had vit stones or Jades instead. I can't be bothered to **** with it anymore. I'd advise against attack level sharding unless the speculated higher attack level shards come to our version.

    Yeah I currently have 10 dots in my armour, I'm full r9r2 +10. I'm quite disappointed with the damage increase so far, admittedly I don't have a +12 bow, but it's got one of the best rolls on the server.
    The way I see it, I'd rather spend 1 billion in vits which mathematically work out to be better than jades unbuffed and only slightly worse when buffed and save the money I would have spent on jades in the new NW gears instead, for example the tome, necklace and ring.

    I know jades are the best you can get full end game fully buffed until people start hitting 200 attack levels, but I spend most of my pk time just self buffed. I don't think spending an extra 2 or so billion is worth it when I could just out tank jaded players by having additional gear they don't have that's better. It's not like I'd be completely helpless against the ones who have the super endgame everything +12 jaded engraved nw gears etc etc
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  • DirtySouth - Raging Tide
    DirtySouth - Raging Tide Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    i got a 19k zerk crit by a r9rr sin with cleric-bm buffs. my stats were 19k phy def , 12.4k mag def, 94 def lvls . i don't think shards make that big difference atm, atleast vs gofs weapons so i would go for the cheaper way aka vit stones.
  • XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear
    XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think Jades make a difference, people are proving that with R8R def lvl weps. They help barbs, bms, clerics, just about any class very well. I think if I had the money, I'd definitely go with Jades, but I'll worry about shards after all my gears are +10. Rocking them immac citrines, oh yeah!
  • deadwieght
    deadwieght Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    once u reach a certain attack lvl the returns are negligable unless ur facing a full JoSD player or psy in white or seeker with def combo up. on ur average player adding 15 attack lvls when u have 100+ alrdy adds 200-300 damage. this can be easily tested with a high geared psy and switching back and fourth from omalleys to jones blessings.so definatly not DoTs.


    vits can give u more than just HPs and as an archer u can reach 20k fairly easily.

    full JoSD seems a better option. unless u want to wait like asterelle says for the +3 def lvl items.

    archers kite better than most classes so having the def lvls is prolly gonna make more sense.
  • Esfandiyar - Dreamweaver
    Esfandiyar - Dreamweaver Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    when you play a low lvl archer,you can use different builds, full dex, vit build, hybrid etc.with a vit build archer, you got alot of hp but you still cant tank mobs, eventually u have to kite most of the times cos you cant kill mobs fast enough, with a full dex build, you don't have much HP but you can kill them before they can get to you.
    since LA don't provide enough pdef or mdef even with JoSD or Vit stones, killing an archer is not that hard with a +12 wep,but with more attack lvls you got the chance to take them out before they can get to you.
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  • XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear
    XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    LA alone doesn't provide enough defenses that is a true statement. LA has the worst defenses in the game. But if you refine your ornaments and rings well, you can make up for some of that short coming. I know currently I have 10.7k mdef and 12-14k pdef depending on the bell level, from 10, demon, and sage. Seemingly pretty balanced. I still have to alter my build and get a new ring and cube necklace. But the decision of Vit Stones or Jades is an extremely difficult decision. When I built myself on pwcalc with both Jades and Vits I definitely liked the look of the resistance boots I got from the Vits, the Jades gave defense levels which reduce damage overall. Vit's do that on a smaller scale, but also with a hp boost. Which for me personally makes me like the Vits better, but I do know that the Jades are better.
  • Sint - Harshlands
    Sint - Harshlands Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »
    haven't experienced that, are you referring to DoT archers with +1 armors?



    if they do come out that means I'll have to re-shard my DoT's for the 3rd time. b:spit

    idk about your server, but on HL, we have wizzies who actually use undine. And ulti. at full +10, full DoT shards will give you 11k hp unbuffed, which means you're a 1shot to any r9+12 mage who crits on you, and die in, at most, 4 seconds if one of them remembers he can sutra. Since your full DoT build deals essentially the same dmg non DoT archers deal (about 13% more on average, when your physical dmg range is as wide as an archer's is, is almost unnoticeable) i really have no idea why you wouldn't go for surviveability, since being able to tank someone 50% longer is worth more than being able to kill him 13% faster, provided you're fighting someone you have a reasonable expectation of beating. (i.e: this obviously does not apply in cases where 13% makes the difference between having a chance to kill someone and having no such chance, but those cases are quite few when you're using a rank 9 +12 bow.)

    I personally prefer JoSD, although i tried neither in this version. I've run with both on pservers, and the difference is noticeable.
  • taringa181
    taringa181 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    js a vit built archer can be still apsed down like a boon while josd archer can not be

    if your problem is wizards get soul of fire on genie.... pew pew.. maybe stealth pew pew purge dead

    my archer is full josd and i tanked few times r9r3 +12 wizards switching to r8r weapon maybe or popping a dew... i even cata pulled ijs :D

    while my friend is full dot r9r3 and had been able to 36k a cata barb and he just keeps sof hos oxy bubble vs casters on his genie or expel for sins

    imo for archers the way is DoT or josd...

    with dot if you combo your build with defensive apo and genie (ig sutra hos sof etch) you will be able to deal enough damage to kill your foes before you run out of the defensive power of your apo\genie...

    while if you are josd if you combo your build with offensive apo genie (ztp e.fist frenzy ep w.e.) you will be able to deal enough damage to kill your foes before they can kill you either if you combo your build with defensive apo genie you will be able to stand on field w\o dieing

    and full phys ornaments
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Annnnd you burn all your defense checkpoints in one go

    congrats

    Next wizzie comes along is nom nom nom b:bye
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  • Dylena - Raging Tide
    Dylena - Raging Tide Posts: 1,416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Sint - Harshlands wrote: »
    idk about your server, but on HL, we have wizzies who actually use undine. And ulti. at full +10, full DoT shards will give you 11k hp unbuffed, which means you're a 1shot to any r9+12 mage who crits on you, and die in, at most, 4 seconds if one of them remembers he can sutra. Since your full DoT build deals essentially the same dmg non DoT archers deal (about 13% more on average, when your physical dmg range is as wide as an archer's is, is almost unnoticeable) i really have no idea why you wouldn't go for surviveability, since being able to tank someone 50% longer is worth more than being able to kill him 13% faster, provided you're fighting someone you have a reasonable expectation of beating. (i.e: this obviously does not apply in cases where 13% makes the difference between having a chance to kill someone and having no such chance, but those cases are quite few when you're using a rank 9 +12 bow.)

    I personally prefer JoSD, although i tried neither in this version. I've run with both on pservers, and the difference is noticeable.

    On my server, we get undined but we know better then letting a wizzy pull out a long casting ulti on your head. I've heard the whole story about DoT's being useless and why not build up your character by defenses so many times.

    Most people who are not DoT do not know what DoT are capable of and how low difference it is "tanky wise". Your entire survivbility comes most from genie and wing of grace. The entire archer class is incredibly squishy and sadly no matter what shards you put, you still have the big chance of getting 1 shot by an ulti. Example below..
    DirtySouth - Raging Tide wrote: »
    i got a 19k zerk crit by a r9rr sin with cleric-bm buffs. my stats were 19k phy def , 12.4k mag def, 94 def lvls . i don't think shards make that big difference atm, atleast vs gofs weapons so i would go for the cheaper way aka vit stones.
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  • Troll_demon - Harshlands
    Troll_demon - Harshlands Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    DirtySouth - Raging Tide wrote: »
    i got a 19k zerk crit by a r9rr sin with cleric-bm buffs. my stats were 19k phy def , 12.4k mag def, 94 def lvls . i don't think shards make that big difference atm, atleast vs gofs weapons so i would go for the cheaper way aka vit stones.

    i thought i took too high dmg -.-, that why i never bother with light armor unless it boost my attack. we need attack boost here
  • taringa181
    taringa181 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Annnnd you burn all your defense checkpoints in one go

    congrats

    Next wizzie comes along is nom nom nom b:bye

    if another wizard is coming and could nomnomnom you, then you are ganked, then you should've kited away already if you are dot...

    ofc you can go josd but well you know the price difference already...

    i think most of survivability of a char comes from +12ing the whole gear, then you can be cool with any shard vit josd or dot...

    a wizard can 1shot an archer full dot either full josd if the archer afks or just autoattacks him....
    tho couple of tws ago i cata pulled with my archer on r8r bow (kinda 120 def levels), i tried to backdoor but failed and i had a r9r3 +12 wizard a sin and another one i forgot on me.... well i sofed the spark combo then wog and i spammed wind shield and demon wingspan... then stealth leaped from cata a while to avoid wiz aoes then popped a dew and gave enough time for a backup team to reach me and let them kite away
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Forum PvP. The best kind of PvP.
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  • Bhavyy - Raging Tide
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    taringa181 wrote: »
    js a vit built archer can be still apsed down like a boon while josd archer can not be

    lolwhat, how did you work that out?

    Atm here's my survivability index with my current gear (R9R2+11, +10 T3 helm and cape, G15cube neck +10, LUAD, Sign of Chaos +6) against someone with 130 attack levels vit stone vs JoSD(pretty standard for R9R2)
    Unbuffed:
    p
    m
    a
    Vit Stone---6352
    7081
    6716
    JoSD
    6429
    6870
    6649

    lvl10 Buffs:
    p
    m
    a
    Vit Stone---11369---11066---11217
    JoSD
    13530---12024---12777

    lvl11 Buffs:
    p
    m
    a
    Vit Stone---12613---11492---12053
    JoSD
    15392---12487---13940

    I'm happy with my decision to go vit stones.. (appart from the charm ticks b:shocked really not looking forward to them being 15k)
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  • taringa181
    taringa181 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    lolwhat, how did you work that out?

    Atm here's my survivability index with my current gear (R9R2+11, +10 T3 helm and cape, G15cube neck +10, LUAD, Sign of Chaos +6) against someone with 130 attack levels vit stone vs JoSD(pretty standard for R9R2)



    I'm happy with my decision to go vit stones.. (appart from the charm ticks b:shocked really not looking forward to them being 15k)

    lolwat my balls, my first stage weapon r9+12 sin apsed down full citrine full +10 r9r3 archer a full vit full +12 r9r3 archer and another full vit full +10 r9r3 archer in 1on1s... i was hitting them for normal 1.2 - crit 2.4 - zerkcrit 4.8 each autoattack.... consider u get 4 autoattacks per second... ijs

    wonder with an adversity weapon what could i ve done...

    if you hate sins dont go vit.
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Oh wow man, dude. My sin totally apsed this r10 +12 full creation stone archer. Also I killed this r20 +15 barb, and this nirvy g25 +45 BM. I was hitting for like 5k normal hits, 25k crits, and 5milk zerk crits. Consider you get autoattacked like 300 times per sec... ijs...


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  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    taringa181 wrote: »
    lolwat my balls, my first stage weapon r9+12 sin apsed down full citrine full +10 r9r3 archer a full vit full +12 r9r3 archer and another full vit full +10 r9r3 archer in 1on1s... i was hitting them for normal 1.2 - crit 2.4 - zerkcrit 4.8 each autoattack.... consider u get 4 autoattacks per second... ijs

    wonder with an adversity weapon what could i ve done...

    if you hate sins dont go vit.

    were they uncharmed and afk?
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  • Dylena - Raging Tide
    Dylena - Raging Tide Posts: 1,416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    taringa181 wrote: »
    lolwat my balls, my first stage weapon r9+12 sin apsed down full citrine full +10 r9r3 archer a full vit full +12 r9r3 archer and another full vit full +10 r9r3 archer in 1on1s... i was hitting them for normal 1.2 - crit 2.4 - zerkcrit 4.8 each autoattack.... consider u get 4 autoattacks per second... ijs

    wonder with an adversity weapon what could i ve done...

    if you hate sins dont go vit.

    I killed a R9 wiz with +3 hook and thorns back in the days, does that mean I'm the god of sins? I demand a crown, scepter and a throne.
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  • taringa181
    taringa181 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    jelly nubs...
    if you get apsed by an adversity sin i really want to see how much time your silly HP elves will stand.
    as i said imo best way for an archer is full +12 it first then you can get any shards depending on your gamestyle...
    if you wanna flame or troll i can start insult your 10yo brain right now decus, frustrated much for being a total fail?
    and they were not afk simply sleep 3spark throatcut aps -> they leap to wog -> telestun -> more aps -> dead r9r3
    b:bye
  • Dylena - Raging Tide
    Dylena - Raging Tide Posts: 1,416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    taringa181 wrote: »
    jelly nubs...
    if you get apsed by an adversity sin i really want to see how much time your silly HP elves will stand.
    as i said imo best way for an archer is full +12 it first then you can get any shards depending on your gamestyle...
    if you wanna flame or troll i can start insult your 10yo brain right now decus, frustrated much for being a total fail?
    and they were not afk simply sleep 3spark throatcut aps -> they leap to wog -> telestun -> more aps -> dead r9r3
    b:bye

    Lol! If there are aps sins still out there and an archer that actually gets beat by that its high time to start uninstalling.
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  • DirtySouth - Raging Tide
    DirtySouth - Raging Tide Posts: 287 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Lol! If there are aps sins still out there and an archer that actually gets beat by that its high time to start uninstalling.

    ijs it's still pretty easy to take down a full josded archer apsing with r9r3 daggers only.

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